PayPal Scam

Pixeltistic

Hi,

I recently sold something on my advert.ie shop account for 147 euro, item was posted out and signed for by the customer. No PM, email or bad feedback received.

Three months later I get an email from PayPal saying that the person initiated a credit card charge back with their bank. I provided PayPal with all the information and documents, including the tracking number and delivery docket PDF which clearly shows the details and signature of the person.

Several weeks later PayPal email me they rule in favour of me but it's up to the bank / credit card company to ultimately decide. Two months later I get an email from PayPal saying they regret to inform me the bank ruled against me and the money is lost.

Unbelievable? What other proof do they need if this doesn't rule in my favour?!

I phoned PayPal customer support and asked; why would I use PayPal if it's not safe or secure? I lost this money even though I posted the item with registered post, even asked the person on adverts.ie by PM to confirm their telephone number and address, etc. I asked why am I not protected by the PayPal sellers protection? The agent on the phone said because the customers address was not fully visible by using the tracking number, for this reason I was not protected.

I used the tracking number and called DHL and received a PDF with all information, including delivery driver, delivery address, person that signed for it, address, signature, everything! It took me less than 2 minutes. The tracking number also says it has been delivered and signed for.

What are the next steps? Has anybody had similar experiences? Is the money just lost now or can this be chased and fought for?

I asked PayPal to show me what they told the bank and how they were defending my case, they need a court order to release the information. The scam artist is also still active and making deals on adverts.ie, the telephone number is disabled and does not react to PMs. Adverts.ie need me to go to the police to release more information about this user. I cant even leave bad feedback on this user as more than 1 month have passed so potential victims cannot read my story.

Prodigious

Hi there,
From my dealings with Paypal in the past, they are a company who do not give the slightest sh1t about sellers. Their priority is always the buyer. They have put thousands of sellers out of business. (Google it)
As far as this case, I believe that the money is lost. They are not known to reverse their decisions.

You have this person's physical address, I would recommend posting a letter saying that you are prepared to take legal action. If you do not get a response, a visit to their house would be no harm.

Pixeltistic

Thank you for your reply.

Do you think it's a scam or if it really was a person with a stolen credit card? I don't want to threaten someone with legal action if they just got their credit card stolen and maybe a lot of money has been removed from their account. I do really want to catch this person that did it if it was a scam

Prodigious

To me it sounds like a premeditated scam. The fact that the number is now disconnected is quite suspicious.
If in fact their credit card was stolen, their bank will reverse all the charges made (which has happened to you) and the person will not have lost any money. Either way, they owe you the money in my books.

con___manx1

that's unbelievable the bank did that. If you know which bank it is go in to you local branch and find out what there policy is on credit card charge backs and in what situations they are permitted. If you have the guys address i would threaten with legal action.Even if you don't go through with the case it will scare the hell out of him and it might make him think twice about doing it again.

I have been on the other side of you situation and i agree Paypal is more concerned at looking after the buyers interests.

I got a refund off Paypal before because I bought an item on eBay that was not at all what I thought I was paying for.the seller gave a misleading title and picture of the product and I paid 4 times what the item I received actually cost.

Pixeltistic

Yes it's unbelievable.. I was so angry that this could even happen. I do not know what bank it is as no details can be disclosed to me without a court order or police involvement - which im willing to do but first wanted to check out my options.

con___manx1

this thread should go into the legal discussions section of boards.ie you would defo get more info about your options there. maybe the moderator could move it please

enviro

That's a hard one to take OP... if only there was a list of scam artists that sellers could refer to before completing orders, just to protect sellers from repeat offenders. I know I know data protection and all that.

Do these guys have multiple cards or the like?, as surely the bank would be on to someone who regularly lodges charge back claims ect...

For business sellers; it's just a part of online business unfortunately. Similar to theft in a brick and mortar store... this is the equivalent with the clicks model.

Try to protect your business from a financial viability point of view; don't allow a situation to develop where these charge backs limit cash flow or hinder the running of the business. I would factor in a 2% loss in turnover for this type of thing in any projections or business plan for year one. Asses the figures for year two and adjust accordingly. I would foresee 2% as being on the high side and there should be room to reduce this for year two and three to somewhere closer to 1.5%.

Prodigious

The main thing is not to use Paypal. Bunch of thieving scum. As well as that, you have a good chance of getting your money back since you have his address.

RATM

OP you have an option open to you- the Small Claims Court, which costs €25 to take your case against Paypal.

If it is going to cost Paypal €200-300 to send a solicitor down to the SCC to defend the case and your lost sum is say €147 then they might just give you the money back themselves rather than risk going to court, paying a solicitor and also risk losing and having to pay you anyway. Paypals risk here is your €147+ the cost of a solicitor. Your risk here is €25 and an hour of your time.

For the sake of €25 it might be worth a punt, it seems to me that all the other options are going to take a hell of a long time and work. Another thing is that if Paypal have in-house solicitors who are based in Dublin and you are based in Cork where the case is to be held then they will be even more reluctant to send an in-house lawyer on a trip to Cork and back to defend the case. So they'll almost certainly have to use an out-house one which is going to set them back at least €200 and probably a bit more.

Your contract is with Paypal so it would then be up to them to sue the bank who ruled against you, despite all the proof you provided.

There might well be something in the T&C's of Paypals site saying that they are 'only' an intermediary and excluding you from claims. Don't mind that, what you're seeking to do here is to put them in a position where the least expensive option for them is to give you your €147 back.

Pixeltistic

Thank you that could be an option

rainbowdash

RATM wrote: »

OP you have an option open to you- the Small Claims Court, which costs €25 to take your case against Paypal.

If it is going to cost Paypal €200-300 to send a solicitor down to the SCC to defend the case and your lost sum is say €147 then they might just give you the money back themselves rather than risk going to court, paying a solicitor and also risk losing and having to pay you anyway. Paypals risk here is your €147+ the cost of a solicitor. Your risk here is €25 and an hour of your time.

For the sake of €25 it might be worth a punt, it seems to me that all the other options are going to take a hell of a long time and work. Another thing is that if Paypal have in-house solicitors who are based in Dublin and you are based in Cork where the case is to be held then they will be even more reluctant to send an in-house lawyer on a trip to Cork and back to defend the case. So they'll almost certainly have to use an out-house one which is going to set them back at least €200 and probably a bit more.

Your contract is with Paypal so it would then be up to them to sue the bank who ruled against you, despite all the proof you provided.

There might well be something in the T&C's of Paypals site saying that they are 'only' an intermediary and excluding you from claims. Don't mind that, what you're seeking to do here is to put them in a position where the least expensive option for them is to give you your €147 back.

I'd be inclined to agree with this idea. Its not going to be worth it for paypal to defend the case, just give you the money and be done with it.

I also wonder about reporting it to the gardai as fraud, but probably only worth it if the buyer can still be located. The gaurds can be quite tactful sometimes, and just tell yer man to pay the money and be done with it.

Fr_Dougal

Prodigious wrote: »

The main thing is not to use Paypal. Bunch of thieving scum. As well as that, you have a good chance of getting your money back since you have his address.

Well no, how are they thieving scum?

What's after happening here is the purchaser has filed a chargeback with their credit card provider/bank. They'd do the same thing if they had paid directly by cc/dc. PayPal did their best for the OP to fight the chargeback but obviously the credit card was stolen or the bank wouldn't have been successful in getting the funds returned.

OP you can set your PP account up so that you can only receive payments from a PayPal account holder with a verified address, that will give you the most protection on your transactions and it should stop anyone filing a chargeback against you. It pretty much stops anyone using a stolen card as the address on the card has to match the delivery address.

maria_81

Hey OP,

I had a very similar situation a few months ago with Paypal.

Apparently the buyers account was hacked by a third party.

In my case, I didn't have a tracking number because it was sent by unregistered post.

Anyway, I contacted paypal who told me that I needed tracking number. I couldn't understand why it was my responsibility that the buyer's account was hacked. People use unregistered post all the time, as it's cheaper. Ebay and paypal know this.

Got through to the buyer, and it turned out his account hadn't been hacked and he had actually received the product. No idea what was going on, but I got my money back eventually after alot of to and fro with buyer and paypal

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

This is actually fairly common if you sell large volumes online, particularly at the moment as there is a high influx of credit card / laser card fraud into Ireland due to the lax attitude from the guards about it. Merchant services charge (and profit from) administration fee's relating to any fraud transactions and so seem slow to discourage it in my experience / opinion.

It happens both with Paypal and merchant services, hence the roll out of that awful 3D secure.

Basically someone got their card stolen, realised they didnt authorise the transaction and the so the bank refund them the money. Usually, but not always, it's a case of their wallet being stolen or their card getting skimmed. The person who has stolen the card has a lot of stuff delivered in a short space of time to an address, not necessarily that is theirs and sell it online to convert it into cash. Hence sometimes finding deals on certain sites that are selling below wholesale cost price.

With paypal some sellers are 'Non US - verified', these are more likely to be real buyers. Buyers that just set up an account to make that one purchase, they tend to be higher risk.

As with anything if the sale looks too good to be true it probably is, but no matter how astute you are if you sell enough you will experience some theft. And they are very braisen about it.

Pixeltistic

Thanks all for the replies! Im going after the thief and the money and hopefully sort this stuff out. Its just a horrible feeling sending a very nice product to someone and they sign for it so i know they have received it and then lose the money.

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

OP you can set your PP account up so that you can only receive payments from a PayPal account holder with a verified address, that will give you the most protection on your transactions and it should stop anyone filing a chargeback against you. It pretty much stops anyone using a stolen card as the address on the card has to match the delivery address.

This is perfect... that would really help out filter out the con artists and thiefs, i have googled and searched my paypal account but cannot find this option? Any info on this would be great.

Fr_Dougal

Pixeltistic wrote: »

This is perfect... that would really help out filter out the con artists and thiefs, i have googled and searched my paypal account but cannot find this option? Any info on this would be great.

Log in-->Profile-->My Selling Tools-->Manage how my website communicates with PayPal(I think) and then it should be one of the last options on that page.

Pixeltistic

Thank you!