Hoolahan is the new Hargreaves

Ormus

bullvine wrote: »

Totally, I said this to the lads I work with the other day, hes a poorman's Juan Mata but I mean that in the nicest way of course.

I remember Dunphy going on about Andy Reid as if he was like Paul Scholes or something.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Dunphy will almost always take the negative approach so if he doesn't like a manager he will champion the players he leaves out. People who watch him will blindly jump on that bandwagon and suddenly Andy Reid is the new Liam Brady.

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

Hoolahan is playing, every week in the EPL. You need to forget about this idea that our qualification groups are a higher standard than the league where Hoolahan is playing his club football. They're not and it's laughable to suggest otherwise.

Hoolahan is getting the same treatment as Coleman, McCarthy, Wilson and Long got. All good players who Trap stupidly refused to play in the past. It was obvious they deserved to play and now that they finally are being given the chance they have proven to be some of our best talent.

For each of those players we had chancers like LuckyLloyd and yourself calling them "flavour of the month" or "the new Andy Reid" or whining about the step up to international football. You lot were wrong about those players and you're wrong about Hoolahan too.

??

Coleman had a poor season at Everton last year. He wasn't worthy of selection for the side up to the Euros yet you had people screaming for him throughout the year. He's got better this year, been more of a regular and looks set to be the long term successor to Hibbert. More power to him. He's been selected at the right time.

McCarthy missed out on the Euros because of understandable personal issues and was being kept out of the side before that by Premiership players. He's been brought along just fine.

Long has got an appropriate amount of game time. He has 25 goals in 114 games at Premiership level; and 8 in 33 for Ireland. He's less than a 1 in four goals a game striker at the top level. Severely overrated by Irish fans, and has justly got more game time as Doyle's career falls off a cliff.

Wilson demonstrated commitment issues. That's all we ever said. He's confirmed his interest in playing for us, and been selected after doing so.

---

Hoolahan can't play as a striker or a central midfielder in a 4 - 4 - 2. That's all we ever say. Reid couldn't either. In 08 and 09 we were told that Reid absolutely had to be accomodated, that it was a national disgrace he wasn't involved. Now we're being sold the same thing with regards to Hoolahan. In September and October 2014 I'm sure we'll get the opportunity to find out if he's the missing link at International level. My expectations won't be too high.

LuckyLloyd

GavRedKing wrote: »

Wes will also be 31 in May, time isnt on his side.

This is the thing. When Trapp took over he was a 26 year old Championship Footballer. Through the WC Campaign and friendlies leading up to European Championship qualifiers he was a 27 year old League One Footballer. In his career he has ~50 starts at the highest level. I remember watching Hoolahan playing for Shelbourne and thinking he was class, but a succession of managers have passed on him throughout his career. He's finally doing his natural talent justice I guess, but if he was really that good would he have had this career?

Ultimately, there is a section on here and of the fanbase in general that would have every competitive team selected on the basis of the previous two week's worth of English League football. As I've said before, Ciaran Clark might be currently playing in the Premiership but he's not a Premiership standard performer. To still be playing there regularly in three year's time he'll need to significantly improve.

Pro. F

Ormus wrote: »

I agree it's not a higher standard.

Wilson, Coleman, Long and McCarthy got similar treatment but a lot of people seem to think Hoolahan could be a matchwinner for Ireland in the same way they used to talk about Reid and Ireland.

I think Hoolahan will break into the first team within the next year or so, hopefully under a new manager. When he does, some people will be pleased to see a bright, positive player. Others will be a bit disappointed that he isn't a matchwinner.

It's always some lame excuse. 'He isn't experienced enough,' 'He's too old,' 'we can't change from a 442 to a 4411' and now 'Yeah but he isn't a match winner.' He's been one of our brightest and most creative players for the last few seasons. He should have been in the squad long before now.

Backstreet Moyes

Ormus wrote: »

I agree it's not a higher standard.

Wilson, Coleman, Long and McCarthy got similar treatment but a lot of people seem to think Hoolahan could be a matchwinner for Ireland in the same way they used to talk about Reid and Ireland.

I think Hoolahan will break into the first team within the next year or so, hopefully under a new manager. When he does, some people will be pleased to see a bright, positive player. Others will be a bit disappointed that he isn't a matchwinner.

I am confident Ireland would have been a match winner if he wasn't a screwball. A very talented footballer with issues.

Also what's to say Hoolohan can't be a match winner. Even if he is not i think most people want him playing because he offers us something different. He is one of the few players we have that can keep possesion and play a killer ball.

Ormus

Pro. F wrote: »

It's always some lame excuse. 'He isn't experienced enough,' 'He's too old,' 'we can't change from a 442 to a 4411' and now 'Yeah but he isn't a match winner.' He's been one of our brightest and most creative players for the last few seasons. He should have been in the squad long before now.

I agree that he should be in the squad and the team.

I'm only saying that a lot of people seem to have unrealistic expectations of a 30 year old in his second season in the Premiership who has 2 assists this season.

LuckyLloyd

I wonder will Owen Garvan become a golden calf if Palace go up via the playoffs this year.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

??

Coleman had a poor season at Everton last year. He wasn't worthy of selection for the side up to the Euros yet you had people screaming for him throughout the year. He's got better this year, been more of a regular and looks set to be the long term successor to Hibbert. More power to him. He's been selected at the right time.

McCarthy missed out on the Euros because of understandable personal issues and was being kept out of the side before that by Premiership players. He's been brought along just fine.

Long has got an appropriate amount of game time. He has 25 goals in 114 games at Premiership level; and 8 in 33 for Ireland. He's less than a 1 in four goals a game striker at the top level. Severely overrated by Irish fans, and has justly got more game time as Doyle's career falls off a cliff.

Wilson demonstrated commitment issues. That's all we ever said. He's confirmed his interest in playing for us, and been selected after doing so.

---

Hoolahan can't play as a striker or a central midfielder in a 4 - 4 - 2. That's all we ever say. Reid couldn't either. In 08 and 09 we were told that Reid absolutely had to be accomodated, that it was a national disgrace he wasn't involved. Now we're being sold the same thing with regards to Hoolahan. In September and October 2014 I'm sure we'll get the opportunity to find out if he's the missing link at International level. My expectations won't be too high.

Coleman didn't have that bad a season and the previous season he had a good one. He was definitely a better option than Cox, Walters, Keogh or Long who all ended up on the wing at some stage.

McCarthy was kept out of the team before the Euros by Whelan, Green and Andrews, three players who have sub standard close control. His missing of the tournament was very late in the story, compared to the times before that when he was being overlooked incorrectly by Trap.

I kind of agree with you about Long. Now that I look back over what games he was given, he has actually been given a reasonable chance. Personally I would have played him or Walters more so we could get use their pace/strength which I think would improve our counters/hoofs, but I wouldn't hold that particular choice in isolation as evidence against Trap.

Trapattoni said he was excluding Wilson because his behaviour one night at training camp was unacceptable, he stuck to this line for months. Wilson came out with a statement saying that he didn't know what Trap was talking about and Trap had never explained. Trap kept up with the "he know's what he did" line until the FAI finally stepped in with a statement on Trap's behalf saying that Wilson was not being excluded and he was in the manager's plans. More time passed and now finally Wilson has been involved. It was a ridiculous affair from start to finish. You called him a flavour of the month player.

Trap and his supporters were clinging to the "We play 442, it can't be changed!" line for a long time despite the ridiculousness of the idea that 4411 would be such an upheaval. Then on the eve of the Euro's Trap comes out with the news that Robbie Keane is going to sometimes drop into the gap between the centre forward and the midfield. That has happened on occasions since then and people have barely noticed - what a turn up for the books. Having Hoolahan in the squad filling that role occasionally would not have caused any undue disruption.

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

Trap and his supporters were clinging to the "We play 442, it can't be changed!" line for a long time despite the ridiculousness of the idea that 4411 would be such an upheaval. Then on the eve of the Euro's Trap comes out with the news that Robbie Keane is going to sometimes drop into the gap between the centre forward and the midfield. That has happened on occasions since then and people have barely noticed - what a turn up for the books. Having Hoolahan in the squad filling that role occasionally would not have caused any undue disruption.

Mainly when we don't have the ball though. Sammon was dropping in when we were without at times on Tuesday.

Pro. F

Ormus wrote: »

I agree that he should be in the squad and the team.

I'm only saying that a lot of people seem to have unrealistic expectations of a 30 year old in his second season in the Premiership who has 2 assists this season.

I'm sure there are some people losing the run of themselves with Hoolahan, but saying that he would have helped keep possession better the other night is not an example of that.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Mainly when we don't have the ball though. Sammon was dropping in when we were without at times on Tuesday.

And then when we get possession does he just warp and appear in the box? Keane the other night in Sweden was also playing in that hole behind the centre forward and making runs into the box from there. We saw the same thing at the Euros. The reality is 4411 is easy to slip into from 442.

Ormus

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm sure there are some people losing the run of themselves with Hoolahan, but saying that he would have helped keep possession better the other night is not an example of that.

Agreed.

I was more referring to the likes of Dunphy saying he would have ensured we kept possession and controlled the tempo of the game.

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

And then when we get possession does he just warp and appear in the box? Keane the other night in Sweden was also playing in that hole behind the centre forward and making runs into the box from there. We saw the same thing at the Euros. The reality is 4411 is easy to slip into from 442.

There is a difference between a striker who drops in to give a hand and an attacking midfielder. Keane will be a bit deeper to begin with in transition, but if we build the attack in anyway whatsoever it becomes an orthodox 442 very quickly.

We were very good going forward with that for large parts of Tuesday, you would agree?

2moreMinutes

rarnes1 wrote: »

Wasn't Dunphy(and some sheep) still calling for Andy Reid to be played when he wasn't even getting a club game?

Lee Carsely, Andy Reid, Steven Reid, Stephen Ireland and now Wes Hoolahan. All average players (and prob more I cant recall right now) who Dunphy was elevating towards Messi standards after every game they didnt play. Prob above average for an Irish player but nowhere nearly as good as we like to make them out to be.

Specifically on Hoolahan, if it takes until you are 30 for people to be saying that you should be a regular international starter for Ireland, you're not as good as those people maintain you are.

jmayo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

??

Coleman had a poor season at Everton last year. He wasn't worthy of selection for the side up to the Euros yet you had people screaming for him throughout the year. He's got better this year, been more of a regular and looks set to be the long term successor to Hibbert. More power to him. He's been selected at the right time.

McCarthy missed out on the Euros because of understandable personal issues and was being kept out of the side before that by Premiership players. He's been brought along just fine.

Long has got an appropriate amount of game time. He has 25 goals in 114 games at Premiership level; and 8 in 33 for Ireland. He's less than a 1 in four goals a game striker at the top level. Severely overrated by Irish fans, and has justly got more game time as Doyle's career falls off a cliff.

Wilson demonstrated commitment issues. That's all we ever said. He's confirmed his interest in playing for us, and been selected after doing so.

---

Trap is that yourself ???


BTW it doesn't matter if Holohan is world class, the best in his position in the world a world beater or match winner.
All that matters is that he was better than what was on the pitch, what was left on the pitch and what was put on instead of him.

Fooks sake the amount of sh**e that some try and spin to excuse the sh**e trapatoni has inflicted on the Irish football supporter is enough of an insult without his excusors coming out with more.

Pro. F

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Lee Carsely, Andy Reid, Steven Reid, Stephen Ireland and now Wes Hoolahan. All average players (and prob more I cant recall right now) who Dunphy was elevating towards Messi standards after every game they didnt play. Prob above average for an Irish player but nowhere nearly as good as we like to make them out to be.

Yeah lets frame the argument on what Dunphy said. That's a constructive way of discussing it.

Steven Reid, Wislon, Coleman, McCarthy, Hoolahan - all useful players who we needed that we have had to do without because of Trap's issues.

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Specifically on Hoolahan, if it takes until you are 30 for people to be saying that you should be a regular international starter for Ireland, you're not as good as those people maintain you are.

Last year it was if it takes until you are 29', the year before that 28, Hoolahan has been doing well for a while. A player coming into the team late in his career is a none issue if he is useful, which Hoolahan certainly is.

Here's some questions for you, is Hoolahan a good creative player or not? How many players can you name that are more creative than Hoolahan in Trap's teams?

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There is a difference between a striker who drops in to give a hand and an attacking midfielder. Keane will be a bit deeper to begin with in transition, but if we build the attack in anyway whatsoever it becomes an orthodox 442 very quickly.

We were very good going forward with that for large parts of Tuesday, you would agree?

No it doesn't very quickly become an orthodox 442. When Keane plays that position he constantly ends up trying to do the link up play that Hoolahan is better at.

To answer your question, we did okay going forward I would say. I don't agree with the people bemoaning that we didn't get any shots on goal, we did all right in a tight game. With Hoolahan we would have done better because he is better at that role than Keane.

bucketybuck

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As I've said before, Ciaran Clark might be currently playing in the Premiership but he's not a Premiership standard performer. To still be playing there regularly in three year's time he'll need to significantly improve.

He's playing regularly in the Premiership but is not premiership standard. Better instead to play others who are also not premiership standard but who are not currently playing in the Premiership.

Makes total sense.

Not sure how we can apply that logic to Clark and then select Paul Green, but I guess thats why I dont get 2 million a year.

EdenHazard

I dont know what LL is getting at, probably something to do with playing in EPL doesn't make you a top level player, but it has no relevance to whether or not Hoolahan is good enough to be starting for Ireland.

LuckyLloyd

bucketybuck wrote: »

He's playing regularly in the Premiership but is not premiership standard. Better instead to play others who are also not premiership standard but who are not currently playing in the Premiership.

Makes total sense.

Not sure how we can apply that logic to Clark and then select Paul Green, but I guess thats why I dont get 2 million a year.

St. Ledger should be selected ahead of Clark in my opinion. I don't agree with Trapp on that one. That the latter plays a division higher than the former doesn't make him a better player.

Pro. F

St Ledger has had some injury issues this season I believe. That might be the only reason Clark was selected ahead of him. Imo St Ledger is still one of the best options we have.

Ferris_Bueller

jmayo wrote: »

Trap is that yourself ???


BTW it doesn't matter if Holohan is world class, the best in his position in the world a world beater or match winner.
All that matters is that he was better than what was on the pitch, what was left on the pitch and what was put on instead of him.

Fooks sake the amount of sh**e that some try and spin to excuse the sh**e trapatoni has inflicted on the Irish football supporter is enough of an insult without his excusors coming out with more.

Wouldn't necessarily agree with this, if it was such a simple matter as him being better than those on the pitch football management would be an easy game and there would be no need to pay someone €1.7m a year to do a job when you can get any Tom, Dick or Harry to pick out the best 11 players available. It is very rarely as simple as X>Y so therefore X should start.

In hindsight, in both games last week, I think Traps starting XI was grand, and we played quite well for 150 minutes of the 180. I would agree that in both games the introduction of Hoolahan (earlier v Sweden) would have been welcome changes and against Austria it could have ultimately been the clincher of the 3 points.

2moreMinutes

Pro. F wrote: »

Yeah lets frame the argument on what Dunphy said. That's a constructive way of discussing it.

My post was in reply to a specific quote referencing Dunphy. I assumed most people would realise my reply was essentially rubbishing 95% of what comes out of Dunphys mouth.

Last year it was if it takes until you are 29', the year before that 28, Hoolahan has been doing well for a while. A player coming into the team late in his career is a none issue if he is useful, which Hoolahan certainly is.

Coming into any team late in a career is certainly nothing to be held against a player but the obvious point is that if he is the answer to all our problems, why did it take until he hit 29/30 before he became that answer? Due to everyone not realising how good he was for the 10 years before that or because we all (incl me) just want something to change?

Here's some questions for you, is Hoolahan a good creative player or not? How many players can you name that are more creative than Hoolahan in Trap's teams?

He would be classed as a creative player, yes. My 4 year old nephew is as creative as anyone in Traps teams.

ionadnapokot

SantryRed wrote: »

No one is saying he is world class.

Agreed.

Shelb v Depor 2004 Lansdowne Rd. Hoolahan: best midfielder on the park. I sh** u not. and they had some class on the field that day (Sergio, Mauro Silva, Victor, Valeron)
Id like to think 9 years later he has progressed rather than regressed.

dan1895

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Agreed.

Shelb v Depor 2004 Lansdowne Rd. Hoolahan: best midfielder on the park. I sh** u not. and they had some class on the field that day (Sergio, Mauro Silva, Victor, Valeron)
Id like to think 9 years later he has progressed rather than regressed.

He was unreal that night. Also a few people have been calling for his inclusion in the squad for years, they just didn't have a cheer leader like Dunphy and therefore no one was listening.

fullstop

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

??

Coleman had a poor season at Everton last year. He wasn't worthy of selection for the side up to the Euros yet you had people screaming for him throughout the year. He's got better this year, been more of a regular and looks set to be the long term successor to Hibbert. More power to him. He's been selected at the right time.

He didn't have that bad a season, a few bad games, one of them coming in a very high profile game which was unfortunate. But you wrote him off completely and boy were you wrong.

Pro. F

2moreMinutes wrote: »

Coming into any team late in a career is certainly nothing to be held against a player but the obvious point is that if he is the answer to all our problems, why did it take until he hit 29/30 before he became that answer? Due to everyone not realising how good he was for the 10 years before that or because we all (incl me) just want something to change?


He would be classed as a creative player, yes. My 4 year old nephew is as creative as anyone in Traps teams.

He's not the answer to all our problems. But as you say he is one of our most creative players.

monkey9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I wonder will Owen Garvan become a golden calf if Palace go up via the playoffs this year.

Unless Trap has received a DVD on the chap, he wouldn't have a clue who Garvan is. Therein lies the problem.

Trap was finally told to go to a game a few months ago. Ended up at Carrow Road. Finally got to see Hoolahan. All of a sudden, he's in the squad.

Blatter

monkey9 wrote: »

Trap was finally told to go to a game a few months ago. Ended up at Carrow Road. Finally got to see Hoolahan. All of a sudden, he's in the squad.

Is this actually the truth? (Not that I'd be surprised if it was)

It really is a disgrace when you consider the job he's in and the money he's on. You'd expect more professionalism from a local U-12 football coach.

Farce of a set up.

monkey9

Blatter wrote: »

Is this actually the truth? (Not that I'd be surprised if it was)

It really is a disgrace when you consider the job he's in and the money he's on. You'd expect more professionalism from a local U-12 football coach.

Farce of a set up.

He watched DVD's in Milan. I think it was after the Germany 'match' at Lansdowne when it was reported that he was told by the FAI to actually go to matches. A few days later, he was at a Norwich match at Carrow Rd.

That's the only Premier League match i have seen him at. Now, i'm sure he's been to a few more without me knowing (not that many,mind), but i have literally seen Trappatoni at Richmond Park more times than i've seen him at a Premier League match.

Considering that Trap isn't going to pick a LOI player (and there are better players in Ireland right now than former LOI player Connor Sammon), that's just ridiculous.

Blatter

monkey9 wrote: »

He watched DVD's in Milan. I think it was after the Germany 'match' at Lansdowne when it was reported that he was told by the FAI to actually go to matches. A few days later, he was at a Norwich match at Carrow Rd.

That's the only Premier League match i have seen him at. Now, i'm sure he's been to a few more without me knowing (not that many,mind), but i have literally seen Trappatoni at Richmond Park more times than i've seen him at a Premier League match.

Considering that Trap isn't going to pick a LOI player (and there are better players in Ireland right now than former LOI player Connor Sammon), that's just ridiculous.

But he won loads of titles back in the 80's, we're only Ireland and we managed to qualify for Euro 2012 so it's all grand.