Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

aloyisious

I'm a little bit worried about this latest move in the ongoing face-off between the Minister, the Garda Commissioner and the GSaI. While it may have been an affront to the dignity of the Minister and the Commisssioner for the four Sgts to get up and walk out of their conference when those two worthies appeared on the conference stage, and there might be something in the Garda Regulations to cover an act of direct ill-discipline by any Garda to the Minister or the Commissioner, I personally don's see any member of a union or Rep Body conference leaving it in peaceful silent protest when some-one he/she doesn't wish to listen to enter's as being anything other than a peaceful objection, unless it is now obligatory under statute law to attend such a conference at all times.

I'd be alarmed at the thought that the two senior members of the establishment above are picking a row with the Garda representative bodies, particularly if it's an attempt to provoke some sort of Blue-Flu incident, or worse. Mr Shatter is also the Minister for Defence and I've felt it wrong for one minister to hold both (Defence of the Republic) portfolios, seeing as how, if there was some sort of major Govt/Garda rep Body clash, the Army could be called into service on the streets if there was a sudden lack of Gardai there.

I hear that there would be an SC on any disciplinary Board set up to listen and rule in any case against the four Sgts, so hopefully he/she would advise that it would be unseemly, de jure and de facto, for the Minister or Commissioner to proceed against anpone walking out of a conference.

Your thoughts on this:

G Power

the garda are waking up and nothing the minister can do will stop this now!!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-defy-protest-restraint-calls-29158965.html

Gardai defy protest restraint calls

Gardai have ignored criticisms and warnings of disciplinary action by Justice Minister Alan Shatter and Commissioner Martin Callinan and held the latest in a series of protests.

PJ Stone, general secretary of the GRA, attacked Mr Kenny over claims that officers' representatives had walked out of public sector negotiations and that the reductions were fair.

"An Taoiseach was disingenuous on Monday when he blamed us for walking out of pay talks - and suggesting we could have made a deal," he said.

"We were never offered a seat in the negotiations between Government and the trade unions; members of An Garda Siochana have been sidelined since 1922.

"We see current proposals as blatantly unfair. How our Taoiseach can see this as fair is simply baffling.

"Any public servant working nine to five and earning up to 65,000 euro per year will not have their pay reduced; while a garda earning 38,000 euro per year will suffer a substantial pay cut: under the proposals before the trade union congress only gardai and nurses are targeted.

"The placard protest at the gates to Government Buildings is the third in a series of demonstrations after GRA members gathered outside the pay talks and last week at the Dail."

Commissioner Callinan on Tuesday told the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors (Agsi) conference in Sligo that mid-ranking officers could endanger the force's standing in the community by joining protests. He said he was speaking specifically about an Agsi circular calling on off-duty officers not to report for work if they are called upon.

The Commissioner also said he would consider disciplining four gardai who walked out of the conference room when Mr Shatter launched a withering attack on garda representatives, claiming they had lost their way.

Yitzhak Rabin

The book should be thrown at them.

Part of being a Garda is remaining disciplined and not descending to the cheap tactics of the left.

Without discipline the force is nothing.

Boombastic

If they can't sit around the table and negotiate like adults without throwing strops and storming off like children, they are not the right people for the job and deserve to be sanctioned and/or fired.

The Muppet

Unless we really are now living in a dictatorship I don't understand why anyone would want to see these people punished for their peaceful protest.

Death and Taxes

Boombastic wrote: »

If they can't sit around the table and negotiate like adults without throwing strops and storming off like children, they are not the right people for the job and deserve to be sanctioned and/or fired.

They were NEVER invited to sit around the table and negoiate so you obviously know nothing about the situation. :mad:

DwightSchrute1

Boombastic wrote: »

If they can't sit around the table and negotiate like adults without throwing strops and storming off like children, they are not the right people for the job and deserve to be sanctioned and/or fired.

you do know that both Garda reps are not allowed to be part of the negotiations

Boombastic

WileyCoyote wrote: »

They were NEVER invited to sit around the table and negoiate so you obviously know nothing about the situation. :mad:

Walk out of the conference, whatever.. :rolleyes:

Yitzhak Rabin

WileyCoyote wrote: »

They were NEVER invited to sit around the table and negoiate so you obviously know nothing about the situation. :mad:

Do you understand why loyalty and discipline are essential in organisations like AGS and the DF?

Mr Jinx

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

The book should be thrown at them.

Part of being a Garda is remaining disciplined and not descending to the cheap tactics of the left.

Without discipline the force is nothing.

They were off duty and attending a conference of their rep body! I doubt standing up and walking out off a room has broken any discipline regulations.

Boombastic

DwightSchrute1 wrote: »

you do know that both Garda reps are not allowed to be part of the negotiations

Boo, hoo, They'll just have to cry in their cornflakes

Lelantos

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Do you understand why loyalty and discipline are essential in organisations like AGS and the DF?

Loyalty to whom?

DwightSchrute1

Boombastic wrote: »

Boo, hoo, They'll just have to cry in their cornflakes

Well you do make a very valid point :rolleyes:

Paulzx

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Do you understand why loyalty and discipline are essential in organisations like AGS and the DF?

If the Garda Commissioner understood loyalty it would make things a lot easier

Death and Taxes

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Do you understand why loyalty and discipline are essential in organisations like AGS and the DF?

Yeah, they should should keep still and keep quiet while being publicly raped!
At least the DF get to sit down and negotiate unlike AGS who just get told that their wages are being slashed and tough tittie if the dont like it.

Boombastic

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Yeah, they should should keep still and keep quiet while being publicly raped!
At least the DF get to sit down and negotiate unlike AGS who just get told that their wages are being slashed and tough tittie if the dont like it.

Publicaly raped now is it? :pac:

Death and Taxes

Boombastic wrote: »

Boo, hoo, They'll just have to cry in their cornflakes

Wow, the intellectual power of that cogent and well constructed arguement just blew me away!
Reminded me of your speech on National Anti Suicide Day 2007, when you suggested that those who did not believe in the Celtic Tiger should kill themselves, Bertie boy!
I mean you are Bertie Ahern aren't you?

jam_mac_jam

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Yeah, they should should keep still and keep quiet while being publicly raped!
At least the DF get to sit down and negotiate unlike AGS who just get told that their wages are being slashed and tough tittie if the dont like it.

Raped is a touch hysterical is it not?

Boombastic

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Wow, the intellectual power of that cogent and well constructed arguement just blew me away!
Reminded me of your speech on National Anti Suicide Day 2007, when you suggested that those who did not believe in the Celtic Tiger should kill themselves, Bertie boy!
I mean you are Bertie Ahern aren't you?

Was Shatter going to rape them?

Death and Taxes

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Raped is a touch hysterical is it not?

Boombastic wrote: »

Was Shatter going to rape them?

rape 1 (rp)
n.1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.


tr.v. raped, rap·ing, rapes 1. To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
2. To seize and carry off by force.
3. To plunder or pillage.

Having your wages cut in contravention of an existing agreement without negotiation= being plundered=raped.

Boombastic

WileyCoyote wrote: »

rape 1 (rp)
n.1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.


tr.v. raped, rap·ing, rapes 1. To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
2. To seize and carry off by force.
3. To plunder or pillage.

Having your wages cut in contravention of an existing agreement without negotiation= being plundered=raped.

It's not when your wages and allowances where too high to begin with

HondaSami

Boombastic wrote: »

It's not when your wages and allowances where too high to begin with

Were they too high? it's a matter of opinion tbh.

Both sides are trying to save face here, Shatter is stubborn but he just might have met his match this time, AGS are not backing down this time, discipline them all what difference will it make.

kala85

its a disgrace on the ministers part. When are we going to look at the massive allowances and salaries that TDs and ministers are getting.
People are entitled to walk out if they want. Shatter is a disgrace. If the commissioner had any standing at all, he would resign as well. Disgraceful behaviour from shatter. An all out blue flu should happen.
What will happen with all the cutbacks and lack of garda cover is that law and order will completely break down.

humbert

Why is resigning not an option? In the private sector, if you're not happy with your pay you move.

I'm sure the average garda with their qualifications and experience could easily find well paid and secure job in the private sector.

dj jarvis

The Muppet wrote: »

Unless we really are now living in a dictatorship I don't understand why anyone would want to see these people punished for their peaceful protest.

part of the job contract is no strike , 100% disciplined
now saying that i think they have a point , but you CAN NOT have garda going on strike , walking away from talks or snubbing ministers ,

they are well paid in solid jobs and retire REAL early , all that is asked of them is to keep the peace of the state , ****ty job at times ,and even might get killed ( more road worker get killed than garda , but road workers dont get the very good remuneration that garda do )

but they know when the leave templemore they have to obey orders , like them or not

If they are unhappy with the pay and condition then leave the force , shatter would love it if loads left , sure he is trying to get rid of loads,

the Defence forces would not and should not do this "blue flu" out of respect for the chain of command , becasue once that is broken - it can only lead to disorder come times of deployment

Sorry garda - but put up or shut up, you signed the contract - no point whinging about it now.

Plazaman

Boombastic wrote: »

It's not when your wages and allowances where too high to begin with

And away we go...

Amirani

Paulzx wrote: »

If the Garda Commissioner understood loyalty it would make things a lot easier

The loyalty of the Garda Commissioner should be to the State, not his subordinates.

Kat1170

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Yeah, they should should keep still and keep quiet while being publicly raped!
At least the DF get to sit down and negotiate unlike AGS who just get told that their wages are being slashed and tough tittie if the dont like it.

Eh, that would be a NO. Both Gardai and DF have Representative bodies not unions. Both are told what is happening. Neither can go on strike.

Lelantos

dj jarvis wrote: »

part of the job contract is no strike , 100% disciplined
now saying that i think they have a point , but you CAN NOT have garda going on strike , walking away from talks or snubbing ministers ,

they are well paid in solid jobs and retire REAL early , all that is asked of them is to keep the peace of the state , ****ty job at times ,and even might get killed ( more road worker get killed than garda , but road workers dont get the very good remuneration that garda do )

but they know when the leave templemore they have to obey orders , like them or not

If they are unhappy with the pay and condition then leave the force , shatter would love it if loads left , sure he is trying to get rid of loads,

the Defence forces would not and should not do this "blue flu" out of respect for the chain of command , becasue once that is broken - it can only lead to disorder come times of deployment

Sorry garda - but put up or shut up, you signed the contract - no point whinging about it now.

Actually, the gardai are answerable to the people of Ireland, that's their contract,,the sooner the politicians are taken out of the equation the better. Shatter & his cronies are trying to keep them in check, but a time will come when the gardai will turn on their paymasters, when that day comes it will lead to a mini revolution & the politicians will then realize that the gardai are not their personal enforcement agency

VinLieger

Shatter wont be happy till the army, solicitors, barristers and gardai all have to personally ask him to simply take a piss.

Midnight Sundance

Taking aside any opinions on their wages etc, I think they should be allowed to voice their opinions.
( who is to say that they all didn't have a bad dose of diarrhoea and needed the bathroom urgently??)

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

Sorry garda - but put up or shut up, you signed the contract - no point whinging about it now.

Just a point on that. Contracts work both ways.

dj jarvis

Lelantos wrote: »

Actually, the gardai are answerable to the people of Ireland, that's their contract,,the sooner the politicians are taken out of the equation the better. Shatter & his cronies are trying to keep them in check, but a time will come when the gardai will turn on their paymasters, when that day comes it will lead to a mini revolution & the politicians will then realize that the gardai are not their personal enforcement agency

yea , and their contract with the people states they cant be union members or strike - its a simple as that

shatter has to keep them in check , its his job - and if they do " turn on their paymasters " the other arms of security and defense will have to tackle them.
as you point out they work for the people, and if they turn against the state , they turn against you and me - for what ? over pay and conditions ? if they are not happy , leave - others would be delighted

im sorry , but your post is wishful rabble rousing but un workable. in the real world - if they step out of line , they will and should be jumped on and hard , becasue if you dont - bye bye security of the state.

Boombastic

SB2013 wrote: »

Just a point on that. Contracts work both ways.

So does bench marking

dj jarvis

SB2013 wrote: »

Just a point on that. Contracts work both ways.

they do - and im sure there is a clause that allows the state to change wage levels and perks as needed , no public sector worker is immune from this **** storm , dont see why they should be

lets face it , their own people walked out before the talks , and now they are regretting it

they are public workers - paid for by us - cuts need to be made - sorry lads
dont like it then leave.

Paulzx

NiallSparky wrote: »

The loyalty of the Garda Commissioner should be to the State, not his subordinates.

Then why is it apparent his loyalty is to Shatter?


No senior manager in any organisation can run it efficently if he loses his employees respect. Management don't have to be popular but they do need to have the respect of the people they manage if the organisation is to function.


Senior Garda management quite obviously do not have this respect. They can enforce discipline all they want but when management are functioning correctly discipline generally takes care of itself no matter where you work.

Without a change of minister and commissioner i can't see AGS as a body coming back from this. Trust has completely broken down

Paulzx

Boombastic wrote: »

So does bench marking

Benchmarking has been more than reversed at this stage for many sectors

Larbre34

Paulzx wrote: »

Then why is it apparent his loyalty is to Shatter?


No senior manager in any organisation can run it efficently if he loses his employees respect. Management don't have to be popular but they do need to have the respect of the people they manage if the organisation is to function.


Senior Garda management quite obviously do not have this respect. They can enforce discipline all they want but when management are functioning correctly discipline generally takes care of itself no matter where you work.

Without a change of minister and commissioner i can't see AGS as a body coming back from this. Trust has completely broken down

Well done Sir, you have just got to the root of public sector intransigence in one sentence.

dj jarvis

Midnight Sundance wrote: »

Taking aside any opinions on their wages etc, I think they should be allowed to voice their opinions.
( who is to say that they all didn't have a bad dose of diarrhoea and needed the bathroom urgently??)

but they can voice their opinion , they have the " garda union" for that, knowing full well when they joined that they CANT HAVE A UNION OR STRIKE
They voted in their association , who walked out , so they lost their chance at voicing their opposition to the cuts

cant have it both ways

It will be a international disgrace on the force if they "strike"

Lelantos

dj jarvis wrote: »

yea , and their contract with the people states they cant be union members or strike - its a simple as that

shatter has to keep them in check , its his job - and if they do " turn on their paymasters " the other arms of security and defense will have to tackle them.
as you point out they work for the people, and if they turn against the state , they turn against you and me - for what ? over pay and conditions ? if they are not happy , leave - others would be delighted

im sorry , but your post is wishful rabble rousing but un workable. in the real world - if they step out of line , they will and should be jumped on and hard , becasue if you dont - bye bye security of the state.

Actually, when the people march on the dáil for cutting old people's medical cards etc, acts that were illegal, the gardai should be at the forefront of these marches. Their remit is to protect the people, not the unjust laws & edicts of the privileged. he laws of the state are one thing, the whims of corrupt politicians are another thing entirely

HondaSami

dj jarvis wrote: »

dont like it then leave.

why leave if you like the job? Why don't politicians take more cuts, like expenses for example, why are they not taking a bigger hit?

brandon_flowers

It wasn't as if they slipped out to have a piss, they obviously made themselves noticed. They should be disciplined. Fairly spineless thing to do if you ask me. Why not put up their hand and ask the difficult questions? Staying stum or walking out is hardly is not going to achieve anything. It is downright disrespectful actually.

If you walked out of a speech by your company CEO regardless of circumstance you wouldn't be coming back.

VinLieger

brandon_flowers wrote: »

It wasn't as if they slipped out to have a piss, they obviously made themselves noticed. They should be disciplined. Fairly spineless thing to do if you ask me. Why not put up their hand and ask the difficult questions? Staying stum or walking out is hardly is not going to achieve anything. It is downright disrespectful actually.

If you walked out of a speech by your company CEO regardless of circumstance you wouldn't be coming back.

So what? That was the objective, are you saying the gardai have less rights than every other person in this country?
Lol you think a CEO could fire someone for walking out of a speech and not end up in court?

Larbre34

The AGSI and GRA should simply cease engagement on all matters of change management and reform, and end invitations to Ministers and Command staff to their conferences or other gatherings.

If those Sergeants, or that Garda (who asked questions of Enda as a voter in his private time) are disciplined by 'fines, suspension and a reduction in rank' then it really is time we took a look at personal liberty and the direction this state is taking. There are dangerous precedents afoot here. You might even say Grotesque, Unbelievable, Bizarre and Unprecedented.......

Going Forward

If the Gaurds, nurses, teachers etc. are so unhappy with their pay etc, they are free to offer their talents elsewhere, resign, and get a sackable non secure non pensionable job in the private sector.

I also am fed up listening to the very misleading claims that each gaurd works every Christmas day along with a picture being painted that each and every gaurd is in imminent danger at all times

They do not, and hopefully will not reach harm, but they are now finding the same qualified sympathy from much of the general public to whom they displayed general arrogance whilst enthusiastically dishing out points for minor RT misdemeanours instead of engaging and constructively warning the general public.

Mix this in with recent and past high profile corruption cases and the wealth of local corruption that occurs below the radar and the fact that each and every ordinary person has accepted cuts that they do not agree with, well we are all in the same boat.

When Garda recruitment begins again there will be a stampede to fill such undesirable positions.

BTW, I'd love know what the 24/7 group (they dont work 24 hours a day btw) make of the very generous volunteers up and down the country who give up their time free of charge, from the likes of the RNLI to the Order of Malta etc. to selflessly serve the community .

They must really be dumb

dj jarvis

Lelantos wrote: »

Actually, when the people march on the dáil for cutting old people's medical cards etc, acts that were illegal, the gardai should be at the forefront of these marches. Their remit is to protect the people, not the unjust laws & edicts of the privileged. he laws of the state are one thing, the whims of corrupt politicians are another thing entirely

i think you misunderstand their remit
laws passed by the house , signed into law by the president are the laws they must enforce and protect.

they might have sympathy for the marchers , but they are paid to not do anything about their sympathy's.

they cant and should not act on public opinion.
you got a issue with the laws being passed ? then start a party and start making your own laws - and those laws the garda would have to enforce

you cant have it both ways

Mountjoy Mugger

Going Forward wrote: »

BTW, I'd love know what the 24/7 group (they dont work 24 hours a day btw) make of the very generous volunteers up and down the country who give up their time free of charge, from the likes of the RNLI to the Order of Malta etc. to selflessly serve the community .

They must really be dumb

Many of these generous volunteers are also in the Public Service - to selflessly serve the community as you so eloquently put it.

dj jarvis

HondaSami wrote: »

why leave if you like the job? Why don't politicians take more cuts, like expenses for example, why are they not taking a bigger hit?

becasue they signed up for it knowing they would have little say if any if cuts came down the line.

if they want politicians to take a bigger hit , then make their voices heard at the ballot box.

that is how democracy works - not by holding the state to ransom,
they are doing themselves NO favors with this course of action.

the government wont and cant let this slide.

as for the question of why leave , if your wages are cut to a point where you think the job is not worth it , then im sorry but you leave.
that is how it works

brandon_flowers

VinLieger wrote: »

So what? That was the objective, are you saying the gardai have less rights than every other person in this country?
Lol you think a CEO could fire someone for walking out of a speech and not end up in court?

The Gardai should of course have equal rights, maybe even more rights but walking out of a speech by your employer is not a right. I can guarantee it breaches a code of conduct and that is the reason that sanctions are being mentioned.

And Lol at you if you think the majority of unfair dismissals ever make a court room.

Larbre34

Going Forward wrote: »

If the Gaurds, nurses, teachers etc. are so unhappy with their pay etc, they are free to offer their talents elsewhere, resign, and get a sackable non secure non pensionable job in the private sector.

I also am fed up listening to the very misleading claims that each gaurd works every Christmas day along with a picture being painted that each and every gaurd is in imminent danger at all times

They do not, and hopefully will not reach harm, but they are now finding the same qualified sympathy from much of the general public to whom they displayed general arrogance whilst enthusiastically dishing out points for minor RT misdemeanours instead of engaging and constructively warning the general public.

Mix this in with recent and past high profile corruption cases and the wealth of local corruption that occurs below the radar and the fact that each and every ordinary person has accepted cuts that they do not agree with, well we are all in the same boat.

When Garda recruitment begins again there will be a stampede to fill such undesirable positions.

BTW, I'd love know what the 24/7 group (they dont work 24 hours a day btw) make of the very generous volunteers up and down the country who give up their time free of charge, from the likes of the RNLI to the Order of Malta etc. to selflessly serve the community .

They must really be dumb

Eh, perhaps two hours a week, with involvement usually coming about as an extension to a hobby or family involvement - mountaineering, sailing etc. People are as attracted to these groups for their social interactive aspect as the nature of the volunteer work itself. Professional emergency workers deal with the good bad and ugly every shift they report for. As a comparison its not even a different league, its a different sport........

Lelantos

dj jarvis wrote: »

i think you misunderstand their remit
laws passed by the house , signed into law by the president are the laws they must enforce and protect.

they might have sympathy for the marchers , but they are paid to not do anything about their sympathy's.

they cant and should not act on public opinion.
you got a issue with the laws being passed ? then start a party and start making your own laws - and those laws the garda would have to enforce

you cant have it both ways

Again, incorrect. They are acting on the will of the incumbent govt. The mistreatment of the orderly, the shell debacle in mayo, there are many more, these are not laws that have been signed by our president, these are the acts of corruption by politicians & expect their "personal" police force to enforce their edicts. The gardai must remain separate from the govt, there has to be a line drawn & when politicians try to overstep their remit, they should be slapped down.