Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

Death and Taxes

sfwcork wrote: »

so in other words you just jumped on the thread without reading the comments

What those guards did was against the rules so thats why they are being punished

You cannot pick and choose the rules which you wish to adhere to.

What rule was it against?

VinLieger

JRant wrote: »

?
Doorstepping the toiseach could be seen as trying to influence political policy. I made that very clear and there has been no shifting of anything.

You honestly believe 1 low level ranking guard doorstepping the taoisech on his day off was an conspiratorial attempt to influence country wide government policy and not just the act of an angry person taking his aggression out on someone he feels is to blame?

JRant

VinLieger wrote: »

You honestly believe 1 low level ranking guard doorstepping the taoisech on his day off was an conspiratorial attempt to influence country wide government policy and not just the act of an angry person taking his aggression out on someone he feels is to blame?

I'm sure it was the act of an angry man and not some sort of conspiracy as you say. Merely pointing out the grounds that may be used to discipline him.

But again these are rules, set out quite clearly, that the individual signed up to and being angry is no excuse for breaking them.

VinLieger

JRant wrote: »

I'm sure it was the act of an angry man and not some sort of conspiracy as you say. Merely pointing out the grounds that may be used to discipline him.

But again these are rules, set out quite clearly, that the individual signed up to and being angry is no excuse for breaking them.

And thats why i think its a disgrace if that is the way they go about disciplining him, he quite obviously was not trying to influence government policy and yet that may be the only way they can discipline him so they use it anyway?

Paulzx

JRant wrote: »

?
Doorstepping the toiseach could be seen as trying to influence political policy. I made that very clear and there has been no shifting of anything.

I'd hardly call speaking to a politician who was on a public handshaking, babykissing, buttering up the public session in a large public shopping center as "doorstepping".

It's not as if he climbed in the Taoiseachs bedroom window in the middle of the the night said "move over in the bed Fionnoula, I want to rant at Inda"

JRant

VinLieger wrote: »

And thats why i think its a disgrace if that is the way they go about disciplining him, he quite obviously was not trying to influence government policy and yet that may be the only way they can discipline him so they use it anyway?

But he's put himself in this situation though. His actions will lead to the disciplinary proceedings, while I'm sure his intentions will be taken into account when/if anything comes of it.
For a serving member of the force it was an incredibly silly thing to do. It's one of those situations where he'd have been best served to just bite his tongue as it's a battle he couldn't hope to win.

sfwcork

Members of an Garda Siochana are forbidden from striking on account of their vital role in preserving the peace and maintaining law and order in the State.

If that is not the case then why have they been punished? because shatter just felt like it is it?

JRant

Paulzx wrote: »

I'd hardly call speaking to a politician who was on a public handshaking, babykissing, buttering up the public session in a large public shopping center as "doorstepping".

It's not as if he climbed in the Taoiseachs bedroom window in the middle of the the night said "move over in the bed Fionnoula, I want to rant at Inda"

Jaysus, that's an awful mental image you just left me with

Seriously though, do you think it was the appropriate time or place for a serving member to air any grievances they may have?

ruthloss

sfwcork wrote: »

Members of an Garda Siochana are forbidden from striking on account of their vital role in preserving the peace and maintaining law and order in the State.

If that is not the case then why have they been punished? because shatter just felt like it is it?

It's news to me that aforementioned members went on strike.

VinLieger

sfwcork wrote: »

Members of an Garda Siochana are forbidden from striking on account of their vital role in preserving the peace and maintaining law and order in the State.

If that is not the case then why have they been punished? because shatter just felt like it is it?

They didnt strike they staged a formal protest to show their disagreement with croke park, Shatters pissed cus he demands absolute loyalty and subservience and hates being made look bad

eagle eye

JRant wrote: »

Jaysus, that's an awful mental image you just left me with

Seriously though, do you think it was the appropriate time or place for a serving member to air any grievances they may have?

Is an off duty garda not entitled to act like any other citizen of the state?

How can anybody complain about what they earn if they are not allowed act like a normal working person. Is a private sector worker allowed rant at Enda Kenny when he is out in a shopping mall?

darkhorse

JRant wrote: »

Seriously though, do you think it was the appropriate time or place for a serving member to air any grievances they may have?

Maybe he should have knocked on the door of Leinster House and asked to talk to him.

omahaid

eagle eye wrote: »

Is an off duty garda not entitled to act like any other citizen of the state?

The simple answer to this is no, they're not.

sfwcork

wrote:

ruthloss

It's news to me that aforementioned members went on strike.

In labor disputes, a walkout is a labor strike, the act of employees collectively leaving the workplace as an act of protest.

sfwcork

wrote:

VinLieger




They didnt strike they staged a formal protest to show their disagreement with croke park, Shatters pissed cus he demands absolute loyalty and subservience and hates being made look bad

they did. A walkout is a labor strike

ectoraige

sfwcork wrote: »

they did. A walkout is a labor strike

They weren't working. They were at a conference of their representative body which was being addressed by the commissioner.

Paulzx

JRant wrote: »

Jaysus, that's an awful mental image you just left me with

Seriously though, do you think it was the appropriate time or place for a serving member to air any grievances they may have?

He's a citizen of the state with a vote. He's not entitled to be abusive or rant at him but he is entitled to speak to him.

If that is not the case well then any member of the Gardai is not entitled to speak to his own TD(who he may have voted for) about any matter which he is not happy about.

Where do we draw the line? Joining AGS doesn't mean throwing away every freedom you are entitled to as a citizen of this country. The very next day that Guard could be standing outside Leinster House trying to keep a baying mob away from the Taoiseach and would do so as part of his duty. Just because he disagreed with him the day before as a private citizen doesn't preclude him from doing this

sfwcork

wrote:

ectoraige

They weren't working. They were at a conference of their representative body which was being addressed by the commissioner.

the government obviosly sees it different

ruthloss

sfwcork wrote: »

they did. A walkout is a labor strike

Seriously?

They were at a Union Conference, they were not on duty., and well you know it.

Paulzx

sfwcork wrote: »

they did. A walkout is a labor strike

A strike is a withdrawal of labour.

Leaving a speech is not a withdrawal of labour

JRant

eagle eye wrote: »

Is an off duty garda not entitled to act like any other citizen of the state?

How can anybody complain about what they earn if they are not allowed act like a normal working person. Is a private sector worker allowed rant at Enda Kenny when he is out in a shopping mall?

No, they are bound by very clear rules.
No unions.
No strikes.
Strict enforcement of the chain of command.
Strict enforcement of discipline.

When pay structures effect the services provided to the rest of the population then we all have a say in the matter. With the strict budgetary constraints it's either pay or services.

I don't think anybody is allowed rant at their leisure. Sure wasn't that bloke who ranted at Rabbitte hauled off by the gards.

sfwcork

its the government which has seen it as a walkout..hense a walkout is deemed a labor strike

Whether right or wrong my understanding is that is the facts

JRant

Paulzx wrote: »

He's a citizen of the state with a vote. He's not entitled to be abusive or rant at him but he is entitled to speak to him.

If that is not the case well then any member of the Gardai is not entitled to speak to his own TD(who he may have voted for) about any matter which he is not happy about.

Where do we draw the line? Joining AGS doesn't mean throwing away every freedom you are entitled to as a citizen of this country. The very next day that Guard could be standing outside Leinster House trying to keep a baying mob away from the Taoiseach and would do so as part of his duty. Just because he disagreed with him the day before as a private citizen doesn't preclude him from doing this

Yes, he is a citizen of the state but he also freely signed up to forgo some of these rights afforded to the rest of us.

What baying mobs are these then or is it just a strawman?

aloyisious

sfwcork wrote: »

its the government which has seen it as a walkout..hense a walkout is deemed a labor strike

Whether right or wrong my understanding is that is the facts

A walkout during your working hours at your place of employment, thus denying your services to your employer, would count as being akin to a strike. A walkout from a non-work event while off-duty can hardly be described as a withdrawal of service to your employer.

Now for the political aspect, Matty McGrath has stepped up to the mark with this in the Dáil:

FIONNAN SHEAHAN – 28 MARCH 2013

JUSTICE Minister Alan Shatter has been asked if he refused permission for Gardai protecting his home to use the toilet.

Independent TD Mattie McGrath claimed there has been a number of issues between the minister and Gardai on duty at his house in south county Dublin.

Mr McGrath said he was putting facts on the record and asked if the Gardai were refused the right to use the toilet at the house.

"Are they going to have to bring a commode to use outside your house?" he said.

Mr McGrath also criticised the Garda Commissioner, accusing him of being compromised, said the minister had a "petulance" against An Garda Siochana.

Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore said Mr McGrath was making a "personalised attack" on the Garda Commissioner.

"I think frankly that you should withdraw that," he said.

guymartin

darkhorse wrote: »

Were they murdered?

I doubt they were murdered, still dead though.

If you are murdered do you go to a different place than people who just simply die?

sfwcork

ah the same mattie mcgrath that made a stupid comment about drink driving limits. Is he still plugging on.

jmayo

seamus wrote: »

Well to a certain extent, the defence forces are structured slightly differently so that they're always "on duty", meaning that a private can't give dog's abuse to a general in the pub and claim being off-duty as a defence.

That is, that the integrity of the hierarchy is contingent on respecting the chain of command at all times, whether on or off duty.

Enda being the leader of the country and therefore the "head" of the defence forces, no member of the defence forces should be permitted to show disrespect or talk out of turn. If the Garda wouldn't be allowed talk to his super like that outside of work, then he can't talk to the Taoiseach like that either. And perhaps that's the same basis on which they propose to discipline the other two Gardai.

That said, it's not like the guy was shouting expletives at Enda. He was having a bit of a pointless shouty rant alright, but I wouldn't have said he was ever disrepectful.

Ehh the President is the head of the defense forces AFAIK.

The Garda who confronted Kenny may be done for becoming political which is something they are not allowed do.

Some people talk about the Garda having unions, having the right to have a union, etc when they cannot.

As for the walkout.
They did it on their cheif and this is where the issue arises.
As others have pointed out it can be construed as a disciplinary lapse and a failure to respect the rank of commissioner.

As a famous line in a war miniseries said
"you salute the rank, not the man".

Does anyone think a NYPD officer, a MET officer or a PSNI office could do likewise and get away with it ?
Would they fook.

Police forces and armies are built on discipline, respecting the ranks above and following orders believe it or not.
When that goes out the window you are just left with a trained and probably well armed rabble.


The more I read some of these threads the more I see the old red herring of the front line services sacred cow being dragged into it.

From listening to some you would swear every Garda was on duty in Bagdad with imminent danger of them losing their lives.
How many of the Gardaí are actually out on the best and how many of them are actually in positions of danger.
Granted some are in very real danger but it isn't every single member or nowhere near it.

The image of them being in continous mortal danger bears about as much resemblance to reality as claiming every nurse spends all day/night/weekend saving lives whilst swimming in blood or every fireman is putting out fires from the start of their shift to the very end.

It is emotive bullsh**.

hawkelady

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh the President is the head of the defense forces AFAIK.

The Garda who confronted Kenny may be done for becoming political which is something they are not allowed do.

Some people talk about the Garda having unions, having the right to have a union, etc when they cannot.

As for the walkout.
They did it on their cheif and this is where the issue arises.
As others have pointed out it can be construed as a disciplinary lapse and a failure to respect the rank of commissioner.

As a famous line in a war miniseries said
"you salute the rank, not the man".

Does anyone think a NYPD officer, a MET officer or a PSNI office could do likewise and get away with it ?
Would they fook.

Police forces and armies are built on discipline, respecting the ranks above and following orders believe it or not.
When that goes out the window you are just left with a trained and probably well armed rabble.


The more I read some of these threads the more I see the old red herring of the front line services sacred cow being dragged into it.

From listening to some you would swear every Garda was on duty in Bagdad with imminent danger of them losing their lives.
How many of the Gardaí are actually out on the best and how many of them are actually in positions of danger.
Granted some are in very real danger but it isn't every single member or nowhere near it.

The image of them being in continous mortal danger bears about as much resemblance to reality as claiming every nurse spends all day/night/weekend saving lives whilst swimming in blood or every fireman is putting out fires from the start of their shift to the very end.

It is emotive bullsh**.

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

tayto lover

seamus wrote: »

Does anyone know on what basis the Garda Commissioner can discipline two members for walking out of an extracurricular union meeting outside of work hours?

If I was a member of a union (spit) and my boss was giving a union talk that I walked out of and he attempted to discipline me for it, I'd have him up in front of a judge before he could blink.

Yes. That is typical of the arrogant politics of Fine Gael since they got in.
Yet they bow and scrape to their European masters and punish their own people at their whim.
They are "street angel, house devil" kind of guys.

eagle eye

jmayo wrote: »

Does anyone think a NYPD officer, a MET officer or a PSNI office could do likewise and get away with it ?
Would they fook.

NYPD have unions, so does the MET. I don't know anything about the PSNI.

HondaSami

hawkelady wrote: »

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

He makes a good point actually imo

sfwcork

wrote:

hawkelady

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

Good god what drivel

Do you think ireland is the bronx or what? so you think the public sector should get more cash? let the private sector cover it yeah

G Power

HondaSami wrote: »

He makes a good point actually imo

it makes me sick it has to be spelt out for some people!!

tayto lover

I believe that the Garda are suffering from the antiquated laws which prevent them from forming a Union like many other Police Forces enjoy.

I cannot see the reasons why such laws would remain in force here while other countries have moved on.
Maybe it's to prevent them having the same rights enjoyed by others.
I can think of no other valid reason which stands up.

JRant

aloyisious wrote: »

A walkout during your working hours at your place of employment, thus denying your services to your employer, would count as being akin to a strike. A walkout from a non-work event while off-duty can hardly be described as a withdrawal of service to your employer.

Now for the political aspect, Matty McGrath has stepped up to the mark with this in the Dáil:

FIONNAN SHEAHAN – 28 MARCH 2013

JUSTICE Minister Alan Shatter has been asked if he refused permission for Gardai protecting his home to use the toilet.

Independent TD Mattie McGrath claimed there has been a number of issues between the minister and Gardai on duty at his house in south county Dublin.

Mr McGrath said he was putting facts on the record and asked if the Gardai were refused the right to use the toilet at the house.

"Are they going to have to bring a commode to use outside your house?" he said.

Mr McGrath also criticised the Garda Commissioner, accusing him of being compromised, said the minister had a "petulance" against An Garda Siochana.

Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore said Mr McGrath was making a "personalised attack" on the Garda Commissioner.

"I think frankly that you should withdraw that," he said.

So who's going around being a little tattle tale then?

What business is it of McGraths whether a toilet was made available or not. It's a private residence at the end of the day. Not saying I agree with not allowing them use it but some people are very particular about their toilets, hence builders always have to provide their own portaloo when working in a house for any lenght of time.

It would seem the garda have more leaks than a teabag these days.

hawkelady

sfwcork wrote: »

Good god what drivel

Do you think ireland is the bronx or what? so you think the public sector should get more cash? let the private sector cover it yeah

What's wrong with the Bronx again??
It's bloody safer than some parts of Ireland.
Please read the thread title again and familiarise yourself with the topic.
It never entered my head what your spouting ie public/ private sector and issues with pay.
I had issues with the last one or two sentences from the previous poster about guards/ nurses/ firefighters not doing there job all the time. When something goes wrong or someone needs help they are the folk you call not some keyboard warrior spouting crap.

hawkelady

G Power wrote: »

it makes me sick it has to be spelt out for some people!!

Aw , little petal ... Hope you don't need a nurse for your sickness.

sfwcork

Im sorry but your saying that the bronx is safer than some parts of ireland?

rofl

are you actually serious?

JRant

tayto lover wrote: »

I believe that the Garda are suffering from the antiquated laws which prevent them from forming a Union like many other Police Forces enjoy.

I cannot see the reasons why such laws would remain in force here while other countries have moved on.
Maybe it's to prevent them having the same rights enjoyed by others.
I can think of no other valid reason which stands up.

Hi Tatyo, a quick question for ya.
If its not okay to compare the pay levels of AGS members to forces in other countries, why is it okay to start comparing their working conditions?

JRant

hawkelady wrote: »

Aw , little petal ... Hope you don't need a nurse for your sickness.

Strawman alert

omahaid

hawkelady wrote: »

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

The usual old crap, we should be grateful that a Garda does what they are paid to do? Is that what you are saying? That they only help people who support their pay claims? Your post is probably the most idiotic crap I have read.

omahaid

hawkelady wrote: »

Aw , little petal ... Hope you don't need a nurse for your sickness.

You do know nurses are paid, don't you?

tayto lover

JRant wrote: »

Hi Tatyo, a quick question for ya.
If its not okay to compare the pay levels of AGS members to forces in other countries, why is it okay to start comparing their working conditions?

Because you can't compare like with like with what bang you get for your buck.
BUT you can have the same levels of human rights.
Unless of course you live in a Dictatorship and want to hide that fact.

VinLieger

The law against a union for gardai is ridiculously antiquated compared to other modern countries, it really is time it was scrapped

tayto lover

VinLieger wrote: »

The law against a union for gardai is ridiculously antiquated compared to other modern countries, it really is time it was scrapped

Article 23 Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 23. (3) and (4)


(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

JRant

tayto lover wrote: »

Because you can't compare like with like with what bang you get for your buck.
BUT you can have the same levels of human rights.
Unless of course you live in a Dictatorship and want to hide that fact.

Ah now, thats streching it a bit wouldn't you say.
What human rights are they being denied unvoluntarly?

JRant

tayto lover wrote: »

Article 23 Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 23. (3) and (4)


(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

3: Are you saying that they are being paid an inhuman amount?

4: They volunteraly give up this right to become members of the force.

VinLieger

JRant wrote: »

3: Are you saying that they are being paid an inhuman amount?

4: They volunteraly give up this right to become members of the force.

Almost certain you arent allowed ask someone to sign away a human right in a contract for a job, prove me wrong though if i am

JRant

VinLieger wrote: »

Almost certain you arent allowed ask someone to sign away a human right in a contract for a job, prove me wrong though if i am

Your the one making a claim, you back it up.

Mind you one that springs to mind straight away would be soldiers

SB2013

JRant wrote: »

Your the one making a claim, you back it up.

Mind you one that springs to mind straight away would be soldiers

There is currently a case before the EU courts challenging this restriction. It was taken by the Belgian police.