Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

tayto lover

JRant wrote: »

Ah now, thats streching it a bit wouldn't you say.
What human rights are they being denied unvoluntarly?

The right to form a Union.
The right to free speech and free expression.

seamus

VinLieger wrote: »

Almost certain you arent allowed ask someone to sign away a human right in a contract for a job, prove me wrong though if i am

I would imagine you are free to sign away your human rights if you wish. Informed consent and all that.

The UDHR really controls what may not be forcibly imposed on people. That said, any "signing away" of ones rights would always have include a method through which you can choose to reclaim those rights. In this case, by joining the national police force, one implicitly signs away their right to join a union. They can reclaim this right by leaving the force.

Freedom of speech is always a good example. It's on the UDHR, but we sign it away all the time in the form of NDAs or under data protection legislation.

tayto lover

JRant wrote: »

3: Are you saying that they are being paid an inhuman amount?

4: They volunteraly give up this right to become members of the force.

I don't believe they voluntarily gave up this right. It may have been a condition of employment but I believe it is not a fair and just condition and should not be expected from anyone. Can you volunteer to be downtrodden?

We have just had a Supreme Court case on the right to die and you cannot voluntarily give up the right to live.

Our Government can no longer expect people to volunteer to be silent and not to protest.

sparksfly

hawkelady wrote: »

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

This is some bullsh1t as regards the cops.
Most of these guys can spend most of their time doing F-all, retiring a good 15 years before their private sector collegues on over 600euro pw while double jobbing as security staff and bus drivers etc.
If they closed down as many stations again and fired half of them they would not be missed.
As for nurses and firefigters, they are well paid for the work they do and should not demand any adoration from those who pay through the nose to keep the (often piss poor) service..

tayto lover

sparksfly wrote: »

This is some bullsh1t as regards the cops.
Most of these guys can spend most of their time doing F-all, retiring a good 15 years before their private sector collegues on over 600euro pw while double jobbing as security staff and bus drivers etc.
If they closed down as many stations again and fired half of them they would not be missed.
As for nurses and firefigters, they are well paid for the work they do and should not demand any adoration from those who pay through the nose to keep the (often piss poor) service..

Amazing the way I cannot detect even a small degree of bias about this post :rolleyes:

JRant

SB2013 wrote: »

There is currently a case before the EU courts challenging this restriction. It was taken by the Belgian police.

There is no guarantee that the case will be successful. Till then, nothing has changed and they still have to abide by the very rules they voluntarily signed up to.

tayto lover

JRant wrote: »

There is no guarantee that the case will be successful. Till then, nothing has changed and they still have to abide by the very rules they voluntarily signed up to.

That's my problem with the whole thing.

A Government that requires it's workers to relinquish rights in order to gain employment does not sit right with me.

I think our country would be far better with open discussion and equality regardless of where you work.
I never had any time for Sinn Fein but that Sec 31 lark forbidding their views from being aired or printed never say right with me at the time.

JRant

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't believe they voluntarily gave up this right. It may have been a condition of employment but I believe it is not a fair and just condition and should not be expected from anyone. Can you volunteer to be downtrodden?

We have just had a Supreme Court case on the right to die and you cannot voluntarily give up the right to live.

Our Government can no longer expect people to volunteer to be silent and not to protest.

So you agree then that they are not being inhumanly paid, glad to clear that up.

Okay, so your equating the right to die with the right to join a union, really?

The gardai are there to uphold the law, they have zero say in what the law is hence the separation of powers. So in a way yes they should be quiet and get on with the job, that by your own admission, they are well paid to do.

The Gardai also have no right to protest and this is well understood by every single member of the force. It's downright hypocritical of them to on one hand say "we were promised no more cuts" (which they were not) and then say their going to break a contract, they freely signed, to protest.

tayto lover

JRant wrote: »

So you agree then that they are not being inhumanly paid, glad to clear that up.

Okay, so your equating the right to die with the right to join a union, really?

The gardai are there to uphold the law, they have zero say in what the law is hence the separation of powers. So in a way yes they should be quiet and get on with the job, that by your own admission, they are well paid to do.

The Gardai also have no right to protest and this is well understood by every single member of the force. It's downright hypocritical of them to on one hand say "we were promised no more cuts" (which they were not) and then say their going to break a contract, they freely signed, to protest.

Ah no. That is not what I said at all.
Please don't twist my words.

I didn't comment on their pay at all. Only on their rights or lack of them.
Good try though

JRant

tayto lover wrote: »

That's my problem with the whole thing.

A Government that requires it's workers to relinquish rights in order to gain employment does not sit right with me.

I think our country would be far better with open discussion and equality regardless of where you work.
I never had any time for Sinn Fein but that Sec 31 lark forbidding their views from being aired or printed never say right with me at the time.

There is no discussion to be had in AGS or the defence forces. Discipline is everything, orders have to be obeyed and the chain of command is king.
They are not like any other workers in the State, these people are often sent out into the public heavily armed.
Do you think for one second any dissent can be tolerated in such a position?

tayto lover

JRant wrote: »

There is no discussion to be had in AGS or the defence forces. Discipline is everything, orders have to be obeyed and the chain of command is king.
They are not like any other workers in the State, these people are often sent out into the public heavily armed.
Do you think for one second any dissent can be tolerated in such a position?

I would like if there was no dissent too BUT if they are not happy and denied human rights then there will always be dissent.
Not good to have an unhappy workforce in any walk of life but especially when we hold them up to such high standards.

JRant

tayto lover wrote: »

Ah no. That is not what I said at all.
Please don't twist my words.

I didn't comment on their pay at all. Only on their rights or lack of them.
Good try though

Wasn't trying to twist your words at all, hence the question mark at the end of the sentence

The only reason I mentioned pay was because you quoted the UDHRC section 3, therefore I assumed you were suggesting they are being inhumanly paid. :cool:

tayto lover

JRant wrote: »

Wasn't trying to twist your words at all, hence the question mark at the end of the sentence

The only reason I mentioned pay was because you quoted the UDHRC section 3, therefore I assumed you were suggesting they are being inhumanly paid. :cool:

My main reason for taking part in this thread is regarding their rights.
I feel you have to have the same rights as anyone else to negotiate your pay and conditions and that is being denied them in my opinion.
I also think they and the nurses deserve their allowances for working out of normal hours.

Boombastic

greenoverred wrote: »

So you factor in a proposed paycut for one police force into your post and compare it to the Garda pay from 2008. No pension levy, paycuts or proposed future cuts.

Good man. Forget the facts if they don't fit your argument

So GARDA REPRESENTATIVE ASSOCIATION
CURRENT PAY GARDA RANK 2013 is not current pay?


The proposed cuts in UK will be start in 3 days time, and like most public sector workers you seem confused between net and gross pay :rolleyes:

JRant

tayto lover wrote: »

I would like if there was no dissent too BUT if they are not happy and denied human rights then there will always be dissent.
Not good to have an unhappy workforce in any walk of life but especially when we hold them up to such high standards.

I agree completely but at the same time the level of hypocrisy coming from some of these representative groups is mind blowing. They want to have their cake and eat it.
There wasn't a peep out of them when bench-marking was giving them a 4/5% raise every year but now it's going the other way they all of a sudden are being denied their human rights.

I still don't see how workers and employers can be equals though. Employers always make demands on their employees, be it signing a secrecy agreement or a code of conduct agreement. Every day we choose to sign certain rights away in order use social media or join a club, it's nothing new and the utopian idea of complete freedom is a nonsense.

tayto lover

JRant wrote: »

I agree completely but at the same time the level of hypocrisy coming from some of these representative groups is mind blowing. They want to have their cake and eat it.
There wasn't a peep out of them when bench-marking was giving them a 4/5% raise every year but now it's going the other way they all of a sudden are being denied their human rights.

I still don't see how workers and employers can be equals though. Employers always make demands on their employees, be it signing a secrecy agreement or a code of conduct agreement. Every day we choose to sign certain rights away in order use social media or join a club, it's nothing new and the utopian idea of complete freedom is a nonsense.

There was not a peep out of the Private Sector either when things were going their way. I employed a few lads over the years who were banging on my door looking for raises on a near monthly basis. Some of them wouldn't work in a fit too. It's all just human nature.

Signing away your rights is never the right thing to do. People died to get us those rights.

SB2013

JRant wrote: »

There is no discussion to be had in AGS or the defence forces. Discipline is everything, orders have to be obeyed and the chain of command is king.
They are not like any other workers in the State, these people are often sent out into the public heavily armed.
Do you think for one second any dissent can be tolerated in such a position?

You are, once again, incorrect. Discipline and chain of command are not king. Human rights and the law is. In that order.

JRant

tayto lover wrote: »

My main reason for taking part in this thread is regarding their rights.
I feel you have to have the same rights as anyone else to negotiate your pay and conditions and that is being denied them in my opinion.
I also think they and the nurses deserve their allowances for working out of normal hours.

All of AGS have the same rights though, one group of gardai is not being denied rights that others in the force have.

Nurses and paramedics deserve an awful lot more than they are currently getting IMO. However dragging nurses into a discussion regarding AGS is not comparing like with like, their pay-scales are non-compatible.

tayto lover

JRant wrote: »

All of AGS have the same rights though, one group of gardai is not being denied rights that others in the force have.

Nurses and paramedics deserve an awful lot more than they are currently getting IMO. However dragging nurses into a discussion regarding AGS is not comparing like with like, their pay-scales are non-compatible.

It was about the nurses fighting for their out of normal hours allowances. Garda doing the same.
Anyone working nights, Sundays, Public Holidays should be paid accordingly.

JRant

tayto lover wrote: »

There was not a peep out of the Private Sector either when things were going their way. I employed a few lads over the years who were banging on my door looking for raises on a near monthly basis. Some of them wouldn't work in a fit too. It's all just human nature.

Signing away your rights is never the right thing to do. People died to get us those rights.

Not sure what the private sector have to do with the discussion but from personal experience a lot of unions involved in the construction industry were pushing hard for change in work practices and safety all the way through the 'Boom' years.

Einhard

The Guards do a great job, but they need to realise that the country is broke and cuts have to be made. If their pay is to be afforded special status, then the burden will fall more disproportionately on other sectors.

JRant

SB2013 wrote: »

You are, once again, incorrect. Discipline and chain of command are not king. Human rights and the law is. In that order.

Wrong, again?
I thought I was wrong once but it turned out I was just mistaken :cool:

tayto lover

RTE News -

Garda Commissioner on the 4 Sergeants who walked out and who are on disciplinary charges. " it's time for cool heads".
Pity he didn't say that to Shatter.

I think they are in fear of what might happen if they rattle the Garda's cage.
Can see very little happening to the 4 Garda.

SB2013

tayto lover wrote: »

RTE News -

Garda Commissioner on the 4 Sergeants who walked out and who are on disciplinary charges. " it's time for cool heads".
Pity he didn't say that to Shatter.

I think they are in fear of what might happen if they rattle the Garda's cage.
Can see very little happening to the 4 Garda.

i think they are beyond rattling a cage at his point.

jmayo

hawkelady wrote: »

I'm sure your view will change if you ever need AGS to tackle a bloke who hammered the crap out of you, or if you need a nurse when you are in imminent danger of dying or the fire brigade to cut you out of a burning car !!! I seriously hope none of this happens to you but please think before you post utter idiotic crap in the future.
A future that one day YOU will need one of the above professions to save your arse.

Ah yes what was I saying about the sacred cows again. :rolleyes:
And dear God you accuse me of posting utter idiotic cr**.

Yeah we all know how good the AGS is at tackling the blokes that break into our homes and beat the cr** out of us.
They together with their other public sector colleagues, the office of the DPP, the judges, the prison service all will ensure that my assailant is out within a few years, if not on bail, to carry on as normal.

As for needing a nurse if i was dying, I think I would prefer a doctor who didn't want to get away quickly to have a natter with their mates.
I have seen the level of care offered by a lot of our so called much put upon nursing staff and frankly it doesn't fill me with confidence.

For every nurse or garda (not so sure that firemen can get away with as much slacking off) that works their ar**es off there are a sizable quota who are lazy incompetent unprofessionals who are protected by the status quo and the excusors like yourself.

BTW I will also need an undertaker at some stage as well, should I make sure that he/she are some of the best paid in Europe ?

dj jarvis

eagle eye wrote: »

NYPD have unions, so does the MET. I don't know anything about the PSNI.

they dont have unions as such , same association as the AGS have

here , some light reading

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7141970.stm

dj jarvis

tayto lover wrote: »

The right to form a Union.
The right to free speech and free expression.

read the garda act - they can form a association , but has to be rubber stamped by the minister of the day , and he can choose to ignore it if he wants

it has NO statutory rights or claims - its a talking shop and no more
the garda know this , as do everyone else - apart from some belligerent people on this thread

tayto lover

dj jarvis wrote: »

read the garda act - they can form a association , but has to be rubber stamped by the minister of the day , and he can choose to ignore it if he wants

it has NO statutory rights or claims - its a talking shop and no more
the garda know this , as do everyone else - apart from some belligerent people on this thread

I also know that too BUT it is not right.
They should have negotiation rights too and not be segregated from everyone else getting little snippets of information passed to them from some other Union rep as they sit in another room away from the talks. Madness in this day and age.

Boombastic

Has anyone mention yellow pack Gardai yet? :pac:

tayto lover

Boombastic wrote: »

Has anyone mention yellow pack Gardai yet? :pac:

Go back up your little boreen now
Stop coming out of the bushes taking pot-shots.

dj jarvis

tayto lover wrote: »

I also know that too BUT it is not right.
They should have negotiation rights too and not be segregated from everyone else getting little snippets of information passed to them from some other Union rep as they sit in another room away from the talks. Madness in this day and age.

tayto my good man - i suggest you read up on why police forces around the world dont have and are not allowed unions - same with defense forces.

there is a really good logical reason for this - its not to treat them like slaves , it to secure the state from influence outside and internal

most unions are internationally linked , as are political party's , if the police were in a union , it could be influenced by a outside power or force.
the same reason AGS are not allowed be political here.

do your research - becasue you just keep ignoring the facts when show to you , so stop asking the question - you are starting to come across as a hamster on a spinning wheel

why is it that hard for you to understand ?

end of the road

sfwcork wrote: »

garbage.The private sector is ruled with an iron fist.

who cares? the private sector is the private sector and the public sector is the public sector, their not the same and never will be, get used to it

sfwcork wrote: »

garbage.Its about time the public sector was now too

not at all, the public sector doesn't need an iron fist as they do all the important jobs that nobody in the private sector would be willing to do.

sfwcork wrote: »

garbage.Do you think if it was properly managed as it is the guards would have been able to quash over 50000 tickets and fines

well if i was fined and a guard quashed it for me i wouldn't be complaining

J K

JRant wrote: »

There is no guarantee that the case will be successful. Till then, nothing has changed and they still have to abide by the very rules they voluntarily signed up to.

JRant did you know that it was once illegal for anyone to be a member of a labour union. Anywhere. In any business or any workforce. For anyone to strike was illegal.
That's right. Anyone and Everyone. And why didn't they just accept this. They took the jobs. That's what they signed up for. That's the logic you are repeating ad naseum in every post in this thread - you took the job you accept the terms. However what was then statutary law some people felt was contrary to natural law. And some people died to acquire the human rights that people such as yourself live under and enjoy now. The right to form a union and take industrial action to protect worker rights.

If the Gardai are expected to have no protections where their employer - the state - has made a rule that he could treat his employees anyway he wishes and there is nothing they can do about it and has continuosly acted in bad faith exploiting that rule against the workers then that is an infringement of human rights.

If the Gardai are expected not to have these protections that every other citizen in the western world has then they must be safeguarded by having an independent arbiter to decide on their pay and conditions. The state can only make application to amend these but the independent entity makes judgement. This entity can be the labour court or a specially formed Independent Garda Pay Commission but it must be independent of an employer who has fixed the rules to suit himself and exploit his workers.

dj jarvis

J K wrote: »

JRant did you know that it was once illegal for anyone to be a member of a labour union. Anywhere. In any business or any workforce. For anyone to strike was illegal.
That's right. Anyone and Everyone. And why didn't they just accept this. They took the jobs. That's what they signed up for. That's the logic you are repeating ad naseum in every post in this thread - you took the job you accept the terms. However what was then statutary law some people felt was contrary to natural law. And some people died to acquire the human rights that people such as yourself live under and enjoy now. The right to form a union and take industrial action to protect worker rights.

If the Gardai are expected to have no protections where their employer - the state - has made a rule that he could treat his employees anyway he wishes and there is nothing they can do about it and has continuosly acted in bad faith exploiting that rule against the workers then that is an infringement of human rights.

If the Gardai are expected not to have these protections that every other citizen in the western world has then they must be safeguarded by having an independent arbiter to decide on their pay and conditions. The state can only make application to amend these but the independent entity makes judgement. This entity can be the labour court or a specially formed Independent Garda Pay Commission but it must be independent of an employer who has fixed the rules to suit himself and exploit his workers.

you can not apply the world 90 years ago to today , the picture you are painting is the AGS are slaves , with NO rights , but that is just not true.

they are covered by the safety at work statute , equal rights , in fact most of the same rights that you and me are covered by.

the bug bear is the pay and strike rights
the pay rights i agree with you - time for a independent panel who has the last word

but on industrial action - it a big no from me , and for very good reasons
as i have pointed out many many times on this thread,

as for you comparing 1910 to 2013 is a very very big stretch indeed.

twowheelsonly

JRant wrote: »

That was a chore to read

Would the Gardas other half not be entitled to an old age pension as well?
If so then your figures are way off.

I couldn't care less what size pension Eddie Hobbs gets and frankly it's nobody elses business. It'll be a private pension that he's paid into himself to earn it.
Pensions of all civil servamts are guaranteed by the rest of the working stiffs in this country, while a Garda can swan off with a savage pension by their mind 40's.

:rolleyes: I presume that you have examples of these Gardai in their mid 40s' retiring and exactly how much of a pension they're receiving. Post the details here if you can (That is if you're not just spouting sensationalist Indo crap..)

I'll refer you to your next post......

JRant wrote: »

Your the one making a claim, you back it up.

Mind you one that springs to mind straight away would be soldiers

sparksfly wrote: »

This is some bullsh1t as regards the cops.
Most of these guys can spend most of their time doing F-all, retiring a good 15 years before their private sector collegues on over 600euro pw while double jobbing as security staff and bus drivers etc.
If they closed down as many stations again and fired half of them they would not be missed.
As for nurses and firefigters, they are well paid for the work they do and should not demand any adoration from those who pay through the nose to keep the (often piss poor) service..

Firstly, most Gardai retire between 55 and 60 which is not 15 years before everybody else. Secondly, very few, if any, ordinary retired Guard is on €600 unless he also invested in AVCs' or suchlike.

The rest of your post to my mind is just drivel. You do know that as you're sitting there typing that members of these occupations are out there dealing with drunks, abuse, car crashes, fires and sick and injured people. Maybe in your cocooned world you don't see it but it's happening right now, somewhere in the country. In an hours time it'll be happening again - might be a different Guard or Fireman dealing with it but it is happening. All day. Every day.

JRant wrote: »

I agree completely but at the same time the level of hypocrisy coming from some of these representative groups is mind blowing. They want to have their cake and eat it.
There wasn't a peep out of them when bench-marking was giving them a 4/5% raise every year but now it's going the other way they all of a sudden are being denied their human rights.

I still don't see how workers and employers can be equals though. Employers always make demands on their employees, be it signing a secrecy agreement or a code of conduct agreement. Every day we choose to sign certain rights away in order use social media or join a club, it's nothing new and the utopian idea of complete freedom is a nonsense.

Once again, Google is your friend. Get your facts right.
Who got 4/5% every year from benchmarking??
AFAIR the Gardai got 5% which was paid out over 2 years or so - i.e. 1.5% now, same in 6 Months, 1% 6 months later and the final 1% at the end of the two years. Figures might be slightly arseways there but that's the gist of it.

There wasn't a peep out of the Private Sector either whilst all this was happening. They were all happy to reap the benefits and ignore what was going on around them. Now though, as the piper has to be paid, they want everyone else to suffer as well.
NO employed Private Sector worker has paid as much in this crisis as any Public Sector worker. That's a simple fact.

dj jarvis

twowheelsonly wrote: »

:rolleyes: I presume that you have examples of these Gardai in their mid 40s' retiring and exactly how much of a pension they're receiving. Post the details here if you can (That is if you're not just spouting sensationalist Indo crap..)

I'll refer you to your next post......





Firstly, most Gardai retire between 55 and 60 which is not 15 years before everybody else. Secondly, very few, if any, ordinary retired Guard is on €600 unless he also invested in AVCs' or suchlike.

The rest of your post to my mind is just drivel. You do know that as you're sitting there typing that members of these occupations are out there dealing with drunks, abuse, car crashes, fires and sick and injured people. Maybe in your cocooned world you don't see it but it's happening right now, somewhere in the country. In an hours time it'll be happening again - might be a different Guard or Fireman dealing with it but it is happening. All day. Every day.



Once again, Google is your friend. Get your facts right.
Who got 4/5% every year from benchmarking??
AFAIR the Gardai got 5% which was paid out over 2 years or so - i.e. 1.5% now, same in 6 Months, 1% 6 months later and the final 1% at the end of the two years. Figures might be slightly arseways there but that's the gist of it.

There wasn't a peep out of the Private Sector either whilst all this was happening. They were all happy to reap the benefits and ignore what was going on around them. Now though, as the piper has to be paid, they want everyone else to suffer as well.
NO employed Private Sector worker has paid as much in this crisis as any Public Sector worker. That's a simple fact.

that is simple not a fact - you are calling people on no having correct facts
well sorry for you , but i have had in the last 2 years a 30% cut in wages , put onto a contract that is worthless to me , can not claim dole if the work stops , i also have had the USC , tax increases , prop and house hold tax , fuel gone up , mortgage gone up and on and on and on

so before you post something you think is cock sure - i suggest you get you head out of the clouds and come back down to earth , i and many many private section workers have been savaged , with no job security , no rights , no pensions

welcome to the real world , not the cossetted world that is the civil service

J K

dj jarvis wrote: »

as for you comparing 1910 to 2013 is a very very big stretch indeed.

No stretching - I'm pointing out the fallacy of your 'you took the job you signed up for things as at the time you took the job' argument you spout in every post. In which case industrial relations would still be at 1910. It's bullsht whether you try to go off on a tangent or not.

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

you can not apply the world 90 years ago to today , the picture you are painting is the AGS are slaves , with NO rights , but that is just not true.

they are covered by the safety at work statute , equal rights , in fact most of the same rights that you and me are covered by.

the bug bear is the pay and strike rights
the pay rights i agree with you - time for a independent panel who has the last word

but on industrial action - it a big no from me , and for very good reasons
as i have pointed out many many times on this thread,

as for you comparing 1910 to 2013 is a very very big stretch indeed.

You are certainly on a roll. In actual fact much workplace legislation does not apply to police and defence forces. The Working Time Act being a prime example. Equality legislation can also be ignored in recruitment.

dj jarvis

J K wrote: »

No stretching - I'm pointing out the fallacy of your 'you took the job you signed up for things as at the time you took the job' argument you spout in every post. In which case industrial relations would still be at 1910. It's bullsht whether you try to go off on a tangent or not.

yea yea , you keep telling yourself that clap trap

grown men and women signed a contract - they knew the pitfalls,
and funny , they did not have a problem when the cash was rolling in
not so long ago , reports of garda getting 100k with overtime, maybe a a few did but times were good - truth to the joke about a garda getting a taxi home and the garda says home , and the taxi driver says " which one?"

and now its cut back time , and lo and behold the are whinging about it
boo feckin hoo
they have been and are looked after in Ireland - the people respect them, but
this respect will be lost if the AGSI dont cop on and pull their heads in,

NOT all garda back the stance of the \AGSI

why should they be exempt for felling the pinch like the rest of us?
you can stomp and shout all you want but time for us ALL to take a hit due to the negligence of the last government

dj jarvis

SB2013 wrote: »

You are certainly on a roll. In actual fact much workplace legislation does not apply to police and defence forces. The Working Time Act being a prime example. Equality legislation can also be ignored in recruitment.

read my post - i said MOST rights , and they are

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

read my post - i said MOST rights , and they are

Have you got a link? What rights are you talking about? We;ve already excluded industrial, equality and working time rights. Are there any left?

dj jarvis

J K wrote: »

No stretching - I'm pointing out the fallacy of your 'you took the job you signed up for things as at the time you took the job' argument you spout in every post. In which case industrial relations would still be at 1910. It's bullsht whether you try to go off on a tangent or not.

so they must have had a gun to their heads then must they?
or did they not bother read it maybe ?

jog on

far from a fallacy my friend - fact

dj jarvis

SB2013 wrote: »

Have you got a link? What rights are you talking about? We;ve already excluded industrial, equality and working time rights. Are there any left?

equality ? please expand
and i dont need a link TBH , as i have said , they are not slaves , but they knew SOME right would be forgone when they joined

so the problem is what ?

J K

Jarvis you haven't a clue. 'When the money wans rolling in' lol.

You have no idea what money gardai earn. You don't know the cuts in garda pay since 2008. I defy you to list them here. You can't. You're talking on a subject you know nothing about. You're making an emotional argument with no facts and no information. Gardai never objected to pay cuts pro rata or proportional to rest of the public sector or private sector. Our employer has exploited our position of having no labour protections to again and again target us for higher proportional cuts than everyone else. That and only that is what we object to.

J K

dj jarvis wrote: »

so they must have had a gun to their heads then must they?
or did they not bother read it maybe ?

jog on

far from a fallacy my friend - fact

Did every worker in 1910 or 1810 have a gun to their head. Could they read.

Are you capable of following simple logic or are you being obtuse because you've lost the argument.

twowheelsonly

dj jarvis wrote: »

that is simple not a fact - you are calling people on no having correct facts
well sorry for you , but i have had in the last 2 years a 30% cut in wages , put onto a contract that is worthless to me , can not claim dole if the work stops , i also have had the USC , tax increases , prop and house hold tax , fuel gone up , mortgage gone up and on and on and on

so before you post something you think is cock sure - i suggest you get you head out of the clouds and come back down to earth , i and many many private section workers have been savaged , with no job security , no rights , no pensions

welcome to the real world , not the cossetted world that is the civil service

Probably worded that wrong but where has your reduction in pay gone to?? All PS reductions have gone back to Government coffers. Yours has either gone to your employers or is just money that the company isn't making any more, but hasn't gone back to the State.
All of us have been caught by all the other taxes etc that you mentioned.

As a matter of interest, if you're working on a contract (as in employed by someone else) how come you won't be entitled to dole?

BTW, I worked in the 'Real world' as you put it for a long time (18yrs) before I joined the PS and to be honest I sometimes wonder was I better off. Hands up - I'm delighted to have a pension even if I am paying through the nose for it (never had one before) and the Job Security is definitely a bonus although not by any means guaranteed. The job conditions are crap though and basically you're just a number. (Not a Garda BTW) It's impossible to describe here but the overall conditions are shocking.
I also co-own a company 'on the outside' employing approx 60-70 part time staff and they're a nightmare to deal with!! The sense of entitlement and reluctance to work stuns me. Some are great obviously, and glad of the work, but a large amount of them are nothing more than whingers. Mostly young in fairness and a lot of them reared with a Tiger Spoon in their mouth but they really need to wake up and smell the heather.

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

equality ? please expand
and i dont need a link TBH , as i have said , they are not slaves , but they knew SOME right would be forgone when they joined

so the problem is what ?

You said most rights apply to Gardaí and named some. I have explained this to be untrue. So can you say what employment rights do apply to Gardaí?

repsol

I think the Gardai should either be given the same rights as everyone else in terms of right to strike, union membership etc OR they should have some protection from the cuts. The Government wants to treat them the same as everyone else when it suits and then treat them differently when it doesn't suit.It is outrageous that the Garda who had a go at Enda Kenny in Tescos and the 4 Gardai who walked out during the speeches at the AGSI may face disciplinary action.I think Shatter and the Commissioner need to earn respect,not expect it. Callinan seems to be a yes man and should be more supportive of his staff.

dj jarvis

J K wrote: »

Jarvis you haven't a clue. 'When the money wans rolling in' lol.

You have no idea what money gardai earn. You don't know the cuts in garda pay since 2008. I defy you to list them here. You can't. You're talking on a subject you know nothing about. You're making an emotional argument with no facts and no information. Gardai never objected to pay cuts pro rata or proportional to rest of the public sector or private sector. Our employer has exploited our position of having no labour protections to again and again target us for higher proportional cuts than everyone else. That and only that is what we object to.

bla bla bla , bla bla BLA BLA BLA

bench marking 2000/2007 BLA BLA BLA , bla bla

Boo Hoo , BLA BLA huge pensions blablabla early retirement bla blab lbalba

and on and on and on

i have said what i have wanted to say , go back and read the tread
just becasue your banging the keyboard and convincing yourself that you are 100% correct , does not make it so

and its real funny , but people are choosing to ignore when i back the garda stance on pay , i back their position in the country , i think its a big farce the way they and the other "front line workers" are being treated

but this being AH , the cherry pickers are out in force
Shock horror - some ransomer on AH has a different and scary opinion to us!!!

GET HIM - HE COMES IN PEACE

:rolleyes:

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

bla bla bla , bla bla BLA BLA BLA

bench marking 2000/2007 BLA BLA BLA , bla bla

Boo Hoo , BLA BLA huge pensions blablabla early retirement bla blab lbalba

and on and on and on

i have said what i have wanted to say , go back and read the tread
just becasue your banging the keyboard and convincing yourself that you are 100% correct , does not make it so

and its real funny , but people are choosing to ignore when i back the garda stance on pay , i back their position in the country , i think its a big farce the way they and the other "front line workers" are being treated

but this being AH , the cherry pickers are out in force
Shock horror - some ransomer on AH has a different and scary opinion to us!!!

GET HIM - HE COMES IN PEACE

:rolleyes:

A cogent argument if ever I saw one. :rolleyes: