Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

dj jarvis

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Probably worded that wrong but where has your reduction in pay gone to?? All PS reductions have gone back to Government coffers. Yours has either gone to your employers or is just money that the company isn't making any more, but hasn't gone back to the State.
All of us have been caught by all the other taxes etc that you mentioned.

As a matter of interest, if you're working on a contract (as in employed by someone else) how come you won't be entitled to dole?

BTW, I worked in the 'Real world' as you put it for a long time (18yrs) before I joined the PS and to be honest I sometimes wonder was I better off. Hands up - I'm delighted to have a pension even if I am paying through the nose for it (never had one before) and the Job Security is definitely a bonus although not by any means guaranteed. The job conditions are crap though and basically you're just a number. (Not a Garda BTW) It's impossible to describe here but the overall conditions are shocking.
I also co-own a company 'on the outside' employing approx 60-70 part time staff and they're a nightmare to deal with!! The sense of entitlement and reluctance to work stuns me. Some are great obviously, and glad of the work, but a large amount of them are nothing more than whingers. Mostly young in fairness and a lot of them reared with a Tiger Spoon in their mouth but they really need to wake up and smell the heather.

self employed legally , but defacto employed by the same company
and it does not matter where the cuts has gone , its gone and i have to deal with this reality

as do every member of the state , including AGS

dj jarvis

SB2013 wrote: »

A cogent argument if ever I saw one. :rolleyes:

why thank you - i modeled it on your posting style
flattery is the best form of compliment is it not ?

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

why thank you - i modeled it on your posting style
flattery is the best form of compliment is it not ?

I take it you've run out of lies and misunderstanding then?

J K

You're off the cuff and in the mix DJ Jarvis

tayto lover

dj jarvis wrote: »

tayto my good man - i suggest you read up on why police forces around the world dont have and are not allowed unions - same with defense forces.

there is a really good logical reason for this - its not to treat them like slaves , it to secure the state from influence outside and internal

most unions are internationally linked , as are political party's , if the police were in a union , it could be influenced by a outside power or force.
the same reason AGS are not allowed be political here.

do your research - becasue you just keep ignoring the facts when show to you , so stop asking the question - you are starting to come across as a hamster on a spinning wheel

why is it that hard for you to understand ?

So ha ha because there is "a really good logical reason" for stifling a whole workforce from stating their case that is ok and all above board. You are happy with that. Good man yourself.

Well I am not happy with that.
You cannot have a whole section of a Public Sector body being denied a say in their terms and conditions any longer.
These lads and ladies are not having it anymore and fair play to them.
They have had enough of this sh**.
I fully back them. They are not second class citizens and no citizen should stand for another section of the population being denied free speech and the right to be a member of a Union.
Logical reasons my a***. This kind of thing should have gone out with the Dodo. Too bad if you or anyone else doesn't like it but this should not be allowed to go away and I don't believe it will.

dj jarvis

J K wrote: »

Did every worker in 1910 or 1810 have a gun to their head. Could they read.

Are you capable of following simple logic or are you being obtuse because you've lost the argument.

in case you have not noticed - this is 2013 , and as far as i am aware most garda can read - i even think its a requirement to join

i have lost nothing , because there was nothing to win - it called debate

now take you Valium and assume the position

and your post above LOL'ed very hard - thanks for that

dj jarvis

tayto lover wrote: »

So ha ha because there is "a really good logical reason" for stifling a whole workforce from stating their case that is ok and all above board. You are happy with that. Good man yourself.

Well I am not happy with that.
You cannot have a whole section of a Public Sector body being denied a say in their terms and conditions any longer.
These lads and ladies are not having it anymore and fair play to them.
They have had enough of this sh**.
I fully back them. They are not second class citizens and no citizen should stand for another section of the population being denied free speech and the right to be a member of a Union.
Logical reasons my a***. This kind of thing should have gone out with the Dodo. Too bad if you or anyone else doesn't like it but this should not be allowed to go away and I don't believe it will.

hear that? - that's the tumbleweed rolling past
your another candidate for medicating - deep breath and the real world will come back - maybe

J K

dj jarvis wrote: »

in case you have not noticed - this is 2013 , and as far as i am aware most garda can read - i even think its a requirement to join

i have lost nothing , because there was nothing to win - it called debate

now take you Valium and assume the position

and you post above LOL'ed very hard - thanks for that

So could workers read in 1910 and 1710 when nobody could stike?

I'm still waiting for your answer on that one?

Gonna make another bullsh1t post are ya?

dj jarvis

SB2013 wrote: »

I take it you've run out of lies and misunderstanding then?

i have a HUGE bag of lies that a garda sold me years ago , but funny i have not used one - yet

sb2013 is a transvestite hooker - there ya go , one used and a load left , and its only half ten , sweet

i think the brand of lies i have are the same ones used by the AGSI on their members

omahaid

twowheelsonly wrote: »

The rest of your post to my mind is just drivel. You do know that as you're sitting there typing that members of these occupations are out there dealing with drunks, abuse, car crashes, fires and sick and injured people. Maybe in your cocooned world you don't see it but it's happening right now, somewhere in the country. In an hours time it'll be happening again - might be a different Guard or Fireman dealing with it but it is happening. All day. Every day.

You mean they are doing what they are paid to do?

dj jarvis

J K wrote: »

So could workers read in 1910 and 1710 when nobody could stike?

I'm still waiting for your answer on that one?

Gonna make another bullsh1t post are ya?

no bull**** this is 2013 - the right or lack of the workers rights hundreds of years ago have no relation on connection to today - none , nada , zilch, well maybe in your head they do , but your grasp on the here and now is not my concern.

no bull**** , just not table thumping platitudes like your deluded posting.
im starting to think you my have swallowed larkins biography and now are vomiting random nonsensical words from it - akin to monkeys bashing keyboards if you will

dj jarvis

omahaid wrote: »

You mean they are doing what they are paid to do?

yea , shock horror , they must not have been told all this, the same day that they were not told what was in that sneaky contract that was time machined from the late 1800's

god damm they have been hood winked :eek:
omahaid - quick , gather 10 of your finest horses and meet me in the square , its off to the CPII talks , we have to inform the garda what they are actually paid and signed up to do

---

YYYEEHHHAAAA

J K

dj jarvis wrote: »

the right or lack of the workers rights hundreds of years ago have no relation on connection to today

Why don't they ?

dj jarvis

J K wrote: »

Why don't they ?

man , JK i loved your first two albums , and i have granted you head space because of that , but you are just being pedantic and annoying at this stage , so im gonna stop transmitting from earth now , best of luck with your crusade ( really and truly have no idea what that is )

you should grow a beard , you cant get in on the 1912 labor talks without a beard - god speed

hawkelady

jmayo wrote: »

Ah yes what was I saying about the sacred cows again. :rolleyes:
And dear God you accuse me of posting utter idiotic cr**.

Yeah we all know how good the AGS is at tackling the blokes that break into our homes and beat the cr** out of us.
They together with their other public sector colleagues, the office of the DPP, the judges, the prison service all will ensure that my assailant is out within a few years, if not on bail, to carry on as normal.

As for needing a nurse if i was dying, I think I would prefer a doctor who didn't want to get away quickly to have a natter with their mates.
I have seen the level of care offered by a lot of our so called much put upon nursing staff and frankly it doesn't fill me with confidence.

For every nurse or garda (not so sure that firemen can get away with as much slacking off) that works their ar**es off there are a sizable quota who are lazy incompetent unprofessionals who are protected by the status quo and the excusors like yourself.

BTW I will also need an undertaker at some stage as well, should I make sure that he/she are some of the best paid in Europe ?

No need to get a highly paid undertaker, get a skip bag for all good it will do as you will be dead..
However the people that you described as "lazy incompetent unprofessionals " will be the people who will be around to possibly save your life..

ActingDanClark

I would luuuuuuurv to throw my tuppence worth into this debate. But I'm a member of AGS , and it would appear that the benefits of living in a democracy might not apply to me.

J K

dj jarvis wrote: »

man , JK i loved your first two albums , and i have granted you head space because of that , but you are just being pedantic and annoying at this stage , so im gonna stop transmitting from earth now , best of luck with your crusade ( really and truly have no idea what that is )

you should grow a beard , you cant get in on the 1912 labor talks without a beard - god speed

You were saying there earlier that no one can lose a 'debate'. But when you're unable to answer a question you have kinda of lost. The point of a debate is that you can support your points with arguments. I love the stuff about beards, and inter stellar transmission and late 90s pop stars - but it doesn't all cover over the fact that you're not supporting your arguments. There's no debate here.

dj jarvis

hawkelady wrote: »

No need to get a highly paid undertaker, get a skip bag for all good it will do as you will be dead..
However the people that you described as "lazy incompetent unprofessionals " will be the people who will be around to possibly save your life..

well said hawklady - in all the zany clap trap being posted ( by others ) , i think it keeps getting ignored that , i can argue the validity of their right to strike and their pay and conditions while backing the AGS - i have had some collaboration with them , and found most to be grand , not super heroes , just grand , like me and you ,
some go the extra mile and pay the ultimate price , most dont , thankfully


but because i have this stand point - some posters have tried to diminished what i have said in praise of them in many previous posts ,
well low blows to a fighter with no ideas and no options left.

they were sold a idea , a dream by the AGSI , dont knock me , dont knock the garda - it is all down to AGSI knowing full well they can and will be ignored at the whim of Shatter , and then getting into a strop over it

it can be argued with some validity that the situation needs changing , as has been said a LRC type set up is needed , or the case in Europe might change this , who knows

but until that time - they have to abide by the terms of employment and agreement they have SIGNED up for - no special cases
CPI had a clause that said , if things did not improve , they were coming for more cuts , and here we are - at this point

no one has yet to answer in this thread when asked , why are the AGS any different to you and me ?
are we all not in the ****ter ?

its a fair question

dj jarvis

J K wrote: »

You were saying there earlier that no one can lose a 'debate'. But when you're unable to answer a question you have kinda of lost. The point of a debate is that you can support your points with arguments. I love the stuff about beards, and inter stellar transmission and late 90s pop stars - but it doesn't all cover over the fact that you're not supporting your arguments. There's no debate here.

your opinion ,well i have stated what i think of your opinion,
i care not what random internet radio star interstellar traveler thinks,

the great public at large can re read the thread , and make their minds up

earth out

dj jarvis

damian139 wrote: »

I would luuuuuuurv to throw my tuppence worth into this debate. But I'm a member of AGS , and it would appear that the benefits of living in a democracy might not apply to me.

knock your self out bud , all kinds of crap floating around here

but you might be right about the democracy thing - some peoples rights do look better than others - ill swap mine for yours in a heart beat

tayto lover

damian139 wrote: »

I would luuuuuuurv to throw my tuppence worth into this debate. But I'm a member of AGS , and it would appear that the benefits of living in a democracy might not apply to me.

Probably the most relevant post on the whole subject.
I can't add to it. Well said.
End of.

dj jarvis

tayto lover wrote: »

Probably the most relevant post on the whole subject.
I can't add to it. Well said.
End of.

LOL

tayto lover

dj jarvis wrote: »

LOL

Not like you.
You usually have your agenda to attend to. :D
Nite nite.

JRant

J K wrote: »

JRant did you know that it was once illegal for anyone to be a member of a labour union. Anywhere. In any business or any workforce. For anyone to strike was illegal.
That's right. Anyone and Everyone. And why didn't they just accept this. They took the jobs. That's what they signed up for. That's the logic you are repeating ad naseum in every post in this thread - you took the job you accept the terms. However what was then statutary law some people felt was contrary to natural law. And some people died to acquire the human rights that people such as yourself live under and enjoy now. The right to form a union and take industrial action to protect worker rights.

If the Gardai are expected to have no protections where their employer - the state - has made a rule that he could treat his employees anyway he wishes and there is nothing they can do about it and has continuosly acted in bad faith exploiting that rule against the workers then that is an infringement of human rights.

If the Gardai are expected not to have these protections that every other citizen in the western world has then they must be safeguarded by having an independent arbiter to decide on their pay and conditions. The state can only make application to amend these but the independent entity makes judgement. This entity can be the labour court or a specially formed Independent Garda Pay Commission but it must be independent of an employer who has fixed the rules to suit himself and exploit his workers.

Great, so we're agreed they shouldn't have unions.
I've already stated that there should be some form of independent body to rule on matters such as pay. What more do you want me to say?

Are you really suggesting the State is exploiting AGS, because if you are then there can be no debating the issue as your only seeing what you want to see.

dj jarvis

tayto lover wrote: »

Not like you.
You usually have your agenda to attend to. :D
Nite nite.[/QUO

medication tapering off i see , another dart needed

and please point out for the crowd what my usual agenda is ?
because i don't know , should be a hoot reading your description of it
was not aware i had one.

Mylow

2 of the 4 went to same secondary school.... few years apart......not surprised by one of them.....I know both of them....can't imagine they done anything for their promotion prospects.

greenoverred

Boombastic wrote: »

So GARDA REPRESENTATIVE ASSOCIATION
CURRENT PAY GARDA RANK 2013 is not current pay?


The proposed cuts in UK will be start in 3 days time, and like most public sector workers you seem confused between net and gross pay :rolleyes:

Current Pay Garda Rank 2013 is current pay but that is not the pay scale you posted. You posted "gross pay 1st sept 2008".

At least read the bloody thing before you start posting it

JRant

twowheelsonly wrote: »

:rolleyes: I presume that you have examples of these Gardai in their mid 40s' retiring and exactly how much of a pension they're receiving. Post the details here if you can (That is if you're not just spouting sensationalist Indo crap..)

I'll refer you to your next post......





Firstly, most Gardai retire between 55 and 60 which is not 15 years before everybody else. Secondly, very few, if any, ordinary retired Guard is on €600 unless he also invested in AVCs' or suchlike.

The rest of your post to my mind is just drivel. You do know that as you're sitting there typing that members of these occupations are out there dealing with drunks, abuse, car crashes, fires and sick and injured people. Maybe in your cocooned world you don't see it but it's happening right now, somewhere in the country. In an hours time it'll be happening again - might be a different Guard or Fireman dealing with it but it is happening. All day. Every day.



Once again, Google is your friend. Get your facts right.
Who got 4/5% every year from benchmarking??
AFAIR the Gardai got 5% which was paid out over 2 years or so - i.e. 1.5% now, same in 6 Months, 1% 6 months later and the final 1% at the end of the two years. Figures might be slightly arseways there but that's the gist of it.

There wasn't a peep out of the Private Sector either whilst all this was happening. They were all happy to reap the benefits and ignore what was going on around them. Now though, as the piper has to be paid, they want everyone else to suffer as well.
NO employed Private Sector worker has paid as much in this crisis as any Public Sector worker. That's a simple fact.

Well here's some facts for you big man.
Average Garda weekly pay increased from;
2000 - 837.87 to
2008 - 1207.24

Now I'm sure that your well able for a bit of maths but just in case, thats nearly a 50% increase in pay over 8 years. The last time I checked 50 divided by 8 = 6.25, that's a simple fact.

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

Your post clearly indicates you have intention in having a debate on the matter. Merely pointing out extremes will get you nowhere. You have no idea what I have faced in life and just come across as one of those "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is spouting drivel" merchants.

But of course your right again, no private sector worker has paid as much as the public sector. Those 400,000+ unemployed people have not paid any price at all, great logic altogether.
I'm also sure from your post that you have zero idea what that quote about a piper means. Here's the full one, with a little explaination "he who pays the piper, calls the tune" meaning the piper (AGS) plays the tune that the payer (The State) calls, got it, good.

JRant

dj jarvis wrote: »

knock your self out bud , all kinds of crap floating around here

but you might be right about the democracy thing - some peoples rights do look better than others - ill swap mine for yours in a heart beat

Careful now DJ, don't you know they're saving your life as we speak.

JRant

greenoverred wrote: »

You do realise this is 2013 ?

No, I never got that memo.

_Kaiser_

All over folks, nothing to see here, move along..

Looks like they caved to me and the statement reads to me like closing the barn door after the horse has long bolted. "Full confidence in the Commissioner" eh? Maybe they DID all need to go to the bathroom at once then?

So in a system where even the police can't speak out, and the politicians simply ignore the electorate what are we left with, because it doesn't seem like a "democracy" to me.

omahaid

Kaiser2000, you say the politicians simply ignore the electorate but as you can see Meath voted in another FG TD yesterday so the message FG will take is "keep up the good work"

Paulzx

omahaid wrote: »

Kaiser2000, you say the politicians simply ignore the electorate but as you can see Meath voted in another FG TD yesterday so the message FG will take is "keep up the good work"

Don't think Labour got quite the same message

omahaid

Paulzx wrote: »

Don't think Labour got quite the same message

Perhaps they would have done better if there was a Labour minister for justice?

_Kaiser_

omahaid wrote: »

Kaiser2000, you say the politicians simply ignore the electorate but as you can see Meath voted in another FG TD yesterday so the message FG will take is "keep up the good work"

She got about 14% of the total possible vote as I understand it - so exactly who is she supposed to be representing?

But you're right.. the Irish voters need to take their role in the process seriously too, and not vote people into government based on nothing more than "they fixed the road"/"my mammy and daddy always voted for them" and name recognition/sympathy (as in this case IMO)

We have a 26 year old now with no track record that will make nearly €100k and be set for life even after she leaves politics , representing a party that seems determined to continue the failed policies of their predecessors - all to keep themselves and their EU masters in the lifestyle's they've become accustomed to... at our expense!

Yep, the people of Meath East should be proud this morning alright, but this applies to anyone else who doesn't bother turning out, or who uses criteria like the above when filling out the ballot paper.

dj jarvis

well well well,

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/walkout-sergeants-back-down-in-row-with-garda-chief-29162130.html

so they were going to take a stand for the garda were they ?
standing up for what is right and true ?

or get slapped back into place by the commish and the minister, like i have said would happen from the start, why?
becasue they were ALWAYS going to get a public slapping , they can prob kiss promotion prospects good bye

so lads - you can quote james larkin and sing the Internationale all ye want , matters not a jot in the garda - and they knew this from day one

but any sane poster knew this from the start - didn't we ??? :eek:

Pappa Charlie

dj jarvis wrote: »

well well well,

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/walkout-sergeants-back-down-in-row-with-garda-chief-29162130.html

so they were going to take a stand for the garda were they ?
standing up for what is right and true ?

or get slapped back into place by the commish and the minister, like i have said would happen from the start, why?
becasue they were ALWAYS going to get a public slapping , they can prob kiss promotion prospects good bye

so lads - you can quote james larkin and sing the Internationale all ye want , matters not a jot in the garda - and they knew this from day one

but any sane poster knew this from the start - didn't we ??? :eek:

No apology for the minister and a clear message given to the commissioner, I think the government wanted this to go away, well done to the four lads! They were never going to please you Dj anyway!

HondaSami

dj jarvis wrote: »

becasue they were ALWAYS going to get a public slapping , they can prob kiss promotion prospects good bye

public bullying from the government and ags, why am I not surprised.

JRant

dj jarvis wrote: »

well well well,

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/walkout-sergeants-back-down-in-row-with-garda-chief-29162130.html

so they were going to take a stand for the garda were they ?
standing up for what is right and true ?

or get slapped back into place by the commish and the minister, like i have said would happen from the start, why?
becasue they were ALWAYS going to get a public slapping , they can prob kiss promotion prospects good bye

so lads - you can quote james larkin and sing the Internationale all ye want , matters not a jot in the garda - and they knew this from day one

but any sane poster knew this from the start - didn't we ??? :eek:

Good to see the top brass getting these boyos sorted so quickly, sends an important message to the rest of them.

"After more than six hours of talks, the four stepped back from their previous statement that they had lost confidence in the commissioner.

But their association leader John Redmond made it clear the meeting centred solely on the comments referring to the commissioner and they remained at odds with Justice Minister Alan Shatter."

It's a shame that Redmond fella can't stop stirring the pot or talking out of both sides of his mouth though

"Mr Redmond said afterwards that his association had reaffirmed its confidence in Mr Callinan, which had never been an issue.

It fully supported the four men for fulfilling the mandate they had been given and the association felt it was never a disciplinary matter. That had been confirmed at the meeting."

So Mr Redmond what was it then?
They withdrew comments they made about the commissioner but always fully supported him?
Sure there was no treat of disciplinary action, they just decided off their own back to backdown like the good little lads they are.

JRant

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

No apology for the minister and a clear message given to the commissioner, I think the government wanted this to go away, well done to the four lads! They were never going to please you Dj anyway!

The clear message to the commissioner was "yes sir, your the boss".

HondaSami

JRant wrote: »

The clear message to the commissioner was "yes sir, your the boss".

He is the boss.

JRant

HondaSami wrote: »

He is the boss.

Well they'd do well to remember that in future and stop acting like a bunch trade unionists.

dj jarvis

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

No apology for the minister and a clear message given to the commissioner, I think the government wanted this to go away, well done to the four lads! They were never going to please you Dj anyway!

thats a bit harsh - how does it please me? just becasue i pointed this out from the start , but shouted down by the numptys posting pointless rhetoric

i did not once say i wanted anything to happen to them either way , what i did say would happen did

you read into it what you want , but that dont make it true :rolleyes:

some people eh ???

HondaSami

They made their point and the public will see it for what it is. No one likes bullies.No publicity is bad publicity.

dj jarvis

HondaSami wrote: »

They made their point and the public will see it for what it is. No one likes bullies.

yea , but a POINTLESS point , and the public can also see that,
im sure in the cold light of day when they are directing traffic in the rain , they might be a bit more reticent.

there were better ways of forwarding their point - this was not one of them
publicly snubbing the commis and minister was ONLY going to end one way

badly for them - pointless stupidity on their part

im not going into the rasons why this was going to happen , i have repeated it many times - some get it , others drift off in the red mist and hear the theme music to citizen jones :rolleyes:

JRant

HondaSami wrote: »

They made their point and the public will see it for what it is. No one likes bullies.No publicity is bad publicity.

So they were bullied now?

HondaSami

dj jarvis wrote: »

yea , but a POINTLESS point , and the public can also see that,
im sure in the cold light of day when they are directing traffic in the rain , they might be a bit more reticent.

there were better ways of forwarding their point - this was not one of them
publicly snubbing the commis and minister was ONLY going to end one way

badly for them - pointless stupidity on their part

im not going into the rasons why this was going to happen , i have repeated it many times - some get it , others drift off in the red mist and hear the theme music to citizen jones :rolleyes:

Lol
I can see you sitting there all smug with "I told you so " face. Nothing is ever as it seems dj, don't be naive.

Pappa Charlie

The GRA conference will be another acid test, there is great support for the garda by the vast majority of people in this country, of course it's hard to expect people who may have been convicted of crimes to support them and many are quite bitter towards Gardai and some vent it on the Internet behind the closed doors and on sites like this, but there are decent people too without agendas who make rational arguments! I've a feeling we have a mixture on this forum!

JRant

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

The GRA conference will be another acid test, there is great support for the garda by the vast majority of people in this country, of course it's hard to expect people who may have been convicted of crimes to support them and many are quite bitter towards Gardai and some vent it on the Internet behind the closed doors and on sites like this, but there are decent people too without agendas who make rational arguments! I've a feeling we have a mixture on this forum!

You've not contributed a single rational post to this entire thread, just dipped in and out calling anyone who differs in opinion to you a criminal.

Didn't realise you were the spokeswoman for everyone in the country either or could it be just like your opinion and not the gospel as you seem to think.

PyeContinental

An official statement issued on behalf of the commissioner said the four representatives from the Kilkenny-Carlow branch of the association indicated that they meant to cause no offence to Mr Callinan.

The four personally had full confidence in him, and he also enjoyed the full confidence of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors.

So they chickened out at the first sign of trouble, genuflected, kissed the ring, tail between the legs and scampered away. What an ignoble retreat.

Of course they meant offence. Walking out is a symbolic gesture to demonstrate unambiguously how little respect you have for someone and what they have to say. That was the point.

If you're going to do something, then do it. Have the courage of your convictions. A person should always try to have the strength of character to stand by the choices he makes.

If they had any faith in the solidarity and support of the rest of their colleagues, they would have let the commissioner and the minister do their worst. Perhaps they knew that the rest of their colleagues would be as cowardly as them and that there would be no backlash no matter what sanction they received. They should feel justifiably ashamed of themselves for being such turncoats. How dishonourable.