Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

awec

VinLieger wrote: »

BEFORE TAX, with the USC and other taxes their real earnings are close to 50% of that, also does the fact that they put themselves at risk everday to protect us not give them the right to retire a bit early than everyone else?

Pretty much the same as every single other worker then, the ones who the usual suspects on here want taxed more.

dj jarvis

Fred Cohen wrote: »

From RTE



Amazing how quickly the commissioner can act on this given that we still don't know what happened with the Kieran Boylan scandal after how many years?

True for ya

Shatter can more like lightning when it suits him
But its not un expected - they have to be seen to take a hard and fast line on this - if they dont they are lining up trouble down the road should this escalate

but this fact does not make them right - i bet Shatter was delighted to see the garda when his house got broken into during last summer.

G Power

Fred Cohen wrote: »

From RTE



Amazing how quickly the commissioner can act on this given that we still don't know what happened with the Kieran Boylan scandal after how many years?

he's just following orders and we're doing nothing to remind any of them who they work for!!

G Power

dj jarvis wrote: »

Shatter can more like lightning when it suits him
But its not un expected - they have to be seen to take a hard and fast line on this - if they dont they are lining up trouble down the road should this escalate

too late and it will only anger those with their own minds!! :pac::pac::pac:

dj jarvis

G Power wrote: »

too late and it will only anger those with their own minds!! :pac::pac::pac:

yup
but that is why they are not allowed to take action - for this very reason,

you can not have a police force taking its own actions - and these actions going against the constitution.

it will be jumped on , and jumped on hard.
but i have my sympathy's with them.

end of the road

dj jarvis wrote: »

part of the job contract is no strike , 100% disciplined

no, their entitled to strike, contract or no contract, these no strike clauses should be illegal as they force people in to a situation where they have no other option but to put up with being screwed, if the majority or a large number of the guards go out theirs nothing the government can do.

dj jarvis wrote: »

but you CAN NOT have garda going on strike , walking away from talks or snubbing ministers

yes you can, and yes they should.

dj jarvis wrote: »

If they are unhappy with the pay and condition then leave the force

why should they? just because you probably aren't payed well and are stuck in a job that probably has low pay and working conditions doesn't mean they should have the same conditions, the private and the public sector are different, they will never be the same, nor should they be

dj jarvis wrote: »

the Defence forces would not and should not do this "blue flu"

agree

dj jarvis wrote: »

out of respect for the chain of command

the chain of command doesn't deserve any respect in this country

dj jarvis wrote: »

Sorry garda - but put up or shut up

how dare you tell them to put up and shut up when their being screwed left right and centre and having large numbers cut. just because your stuck in some crap job with little pay and have no choice doesn't mean everyone else should be the same as you.

dj jarvis wrote: »

you signed the contract

not to have large numbers of the force cut.

dj jarvis wrote: »

no point whinging about it now.

theirs every point whinjing about it and so they should, the whole lot should down tools and walk out

Chucky the tree

The old nazi excuse is a bit of cop out from the Gardas involved.

Fred Cohen

dj jarvis wrote: »

But its not un expected - they have to be seen to take a hard and fast line on this - if they dont they are lining up trouble down the road should this escalate

So in the commissioners mind, corruption (by whom it would be interesting to know) is not a priority but failure to tug the forelock and stay to listen to a politician spout horse****e is? And we as a people are happy to let him and the minister stay in vastly overpaid office while we punish sergeants for expressing an opinion? No wonder the country is in the state it's in.

Remember, the beatings will continue until morale improves.

dj jarvis wrote: »

i bet Shatter was delighted to see the garda when his house got broken into during last summer.

I'll bet his missus wasn't when see was done for drink driving a couple years ago.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shatters-wife-in-drinkdriving-ban-26709770.html

sfwcork

end of the road wrote: »

no, their entitled to strike, contract or no contract, these no strike clauses should be illegal as they force people in to a situation where they have no other option but to put up with being screwed, if the majority or a large number of the guards go out theirs nothing the government can do.

yes you can, and yes they should.


why should they? just because you probably aren't payed well and are stuck in a job that probably has low pay and working conditions doesn't mean they should have the same conditions, the private and the public sector are different, they will never be the same, nor should they be

agree

the chain of command doesn't deserve any respect in this country

how dare you tell them to put up and shut up when their being screwed left right and centre and having large numbers cut. just because your stuck in some crap job with little pay and have no choice doesn't mean everyone else should be the same as you.

not to have large numbers of the force cut.

theirs every point whinjing about it and so they should, the whole lot should down tools and walk out

You should do debating or toastmasters .its funny how you actually dont take any points but instead just insult the poster and assume the poster is in a low paid job

Boombastic

end of the road wrote: »

no, their entitled to strike, contract or no contract, these no strike clauses should be illegal ...................

They are not entitled to strike, see no strike clause you reference above

Dwork

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

The book should be thrown at them.

Part of being a Garda is remaining disciplined and not descending to the cheap tactics of the left.

Without discipline the force is nothing.

Hmm. Not much craic upholding the Law, dealing with scum, stress and horrors if it just isn't paying the bills. I'd be in agreement with the Sergeants. They can't by law go on strike, so this is a good way to show their dissatisfaction. If Joe Duffy is worth 300k, what value is placed on a Gard? I'd rate the Gard higher, and certainly more useful. I'm starting to think you might actually be Alan Shatter. You sound like him anyway.

dj jarvis

end of the road wrote: »

no, their entitled to strike, contract or no contract, these no strike clauses should be illegal as they force people in to a situation where they have no other option but to put up with being screwed, if the majority or a large number of the guards go out theirs nothing the government can do.

yes you can, and yes they should.


why should they? just because you probably aren't payed well and are stuck in a job that probably has low pay and working conditions doesn't mean they should have the same conditions, the private and the public sector are different, they will never be the same, nor should they be

agree

the chain of command doesn't deserve any respect in this country

how dare you tell them to put up and shut up when their being screwed left right and centre and having large numbers cut. just because your stuck in some crap job with little pay and have no choice doesn't mean everyone else should be the same as you.

not to have large numbers of the force cut.

theirs every point whinjing about it and so they should, the whole lot should down tools and walk out

you type away - but as in the links i have posted , ie the garda act and the constitution,

they can not strike - read the thread.

as for the rest of your post - your points are just off the wall
you think what you want , but the country is run by the law and the constitution for a reason
the garda wont "rise up" for a good reason , they know what the end result will be.

but feel free to live in your fantasy world

if you actually really believe what you have posted then you have no idea how a democratic state works do you?
The Garda are historically well paid for the very reason that 1: the wont be tempted by crime and 2: they cant strike
they know this when they sign up - so sorry about your rant but that is just the fact of the matter

ignore it if you want - does not change a thing

sfwcork

Does anybody have stats or figures comparing irish force to the european counterparts?????

end of the road

dj jarvis wrote: »

it will be jumped on , and jumped on hard.

by who? the minister? he "jumps on them hard" and most likely he will make them more determined, if a large number of guards go out either on strike or on a blue flew theirs nothing he can do, the guards are being cut numbers wise but the minister isn't going to sack a large number of them on top of those leaving due to cuts. he may have "public support" from those who are in pittence paying private sector jobs but that won't matter when the effects of the cuts begin to bite. the whole lot of the public sector should down tools until their given the respect and pay they deserve and i'm not talking about management. the public sector don't need public support, their job like everyone else is to care about their own families

Big Davey

Sack them and any other public servant that does not do their job. Re hire with people from the live register who would appreciate a job with security and benefits.

Big Davey

sfwcork wrote: »

Does anybody have stats or figures comparing irish force to the european counterparts?????

The Irish lads and ladies drink more Guinness and eat more donuts in all other areas they are inferior.

end of the road

dj jarvis wrote: »

the garda wont "rise up" for a good reason , they know what the end result will be.

what will the end result be? large numbers sacked on top of the cuts? not going to happen, the minister and the government in general are unpopular for the guarda cuts even if they did get some public support for sacking striking guardai their still not going to do it as it would mean even less on the streets, the guards won't rise up now but it is going to get to a stage where enough will be enough and they will do something.

end of the road

Big Davey wrote: »

Sack them and any other public servant that does not do their job. Re hire with people from the live register who would appreciate a job with security and benefits.

and replace the current expertese with those who will probably be of a lower caliber and who will take little pay for a hard and unthanking job? no thanks the current lot are our guards for a reason and thats how it should stay

sfwcork

end of the road wrote: »

by who? the minister? he "jumps on them hard" and most likely he will make them more determined, if a large number of guards go out either on strike or on a blue flew theirs nothing he can do, the guards are being cut numbers wise but the minister isn't going to sack a large number of them on top of those leaving due to cuts. he may have "public support" from those who are in pittence paying private sector jobs but that won't matter when the effects of the cuts begin to bite. the whole lot of the public sector should down tools until their given the respect and pay they deserve and i'm not talking about management. the public sector don't need public support, their job like everyone else is to care about their own families

You seen obsessed with low paid jobs.do you think that because somebody is in a low paid job their opinion is less important?

tayto lover

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Do you understand why loyalty and discipline are essential in organisations like AGS and the DF?

Do you realize why the Garda Commissioner is on Shatter's side?
He is a political appointee chosen by Shatter and Co. Now he's hardly going to go against the Government is he?
Garda Commissioners should NOT be political appointees. It is just not right and akin to a Dictatorship.
Independent appointees only.

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

i was pointing out that they as a group can not strike because of the Garda act and the Constitution,

Nothing to do with the constitution. It's the Garda Síochána Act and it's a restriction that is currently being challenged before EU courts.

dj jarvis wrote: »

i was also pointing out the dangers of them doing so , and the reasons why it will be upheld by the dept of justice with a iron fist - and for good reasons ,

Everyone knows the dangers. And that is why it is important that a police force is run properly by a person who both understands and respects the job that they do. They have not broken any rules or laws and if they are punished for not listening to the minister lie his way through another speech then the situation will only get worse for the government.

dj jarvis wrote: »

i also pointed out that they are the authors of their own misfortune by walking out of the talks

It's been explained quite a few times that they were not involves in talks, they were merely informed of their progress. Their presence at the talks, or near the talks to be more accurate, was pointless.

dj jarvis

end of the road wrote: »

by who? the minister? he "jumps on them hard" and most likely he will make them more determined, if a large number of guards go out either on strike or on a blue flew theirs nothing he can do, the guards are being cut numbers wise but the minister isn't going to sack a large number of them on top of those leaving due to cuts. he may have "public support" from those who are in pittence paying private sector jobs but that won't matter when the effects of the cuts begin to bite. the whole lot of the public sector should down tools until their given the respect and pay they deserve and i'm not talking about management. the public sector don't need public support, their job like everyone else is to care about their own families

from the tone of your post , you are under the assumption that i support what the government are try to do , but i dont , i think the cops have a case ( as i have said a hundred times ) , but they will come down hard on them , they have to , as they understand as the garda do , that they can not be allowed to hold the country to ransom - they are supposed to be above this carry on

if the garda want to be angry , they should be shouting at their Representative who dropped the ball by walking out , playing into the governments hands, they should not have walked out , once out they had no voice , so whos fault is that?

as for mass action and a mass walk out - it would spell doom for them as a group , becasue if they cant be trusted to do the duty the swore a oath to do , then the other arms of the state will take over

uncharted waters for sure , but lets face it , who wants the army taking over the garda role?

Boombastic

sfwcork wrote: »

You seen obsessed with low paid jobs.do you think that because somebody is in a low paid job their opinion is less important?

Obviously everyone on the live register and in low paid jobs is a complete moron and wouldn't have the skills or intelligence to work in a public sector, backlogs and incompetence don't form themselves you know :pac:

Dwork

Big Davey wrote: »

Sack them and any other public servant that does not do their job. Re hire with people from the live register who would appreciate a job with security and benefits.

Sounds good. Sure I'm fairly confident you could easily retrain a few thousand as Gards. The newbies might all be loopers and bell-ends, but who cares, sure gards are only eejits worth bottom dollar anyway, right? . Or not.

I hope they strike. Gardai and Nurses are the only members of the PS I would support to the hilt. The rest I can take or leave, including teachers. Try doing without Gardai and Nurses. You'll soon see what is really "of systemic importance".

SB2013

Big Davey wrote: »

Sack them and any other public servant that does not do their job. Re hire with people from the live register who would appreciate a job with security and benefits.

And you will get exactly what you pay for.

G Power

dj jarvis wrote: »

yup
but that is why they are not allowed to take action - for this very reason,

you can not have a police force taking its own actions - and these actions going against the constitution.

it will be jumped on , and jumped on hard.
but i have my sympathy's with them.

what physical force is stopping any garda from protesting??

as i explained to a detective in my local station the other day when he engaged me in conversation, he started by saying "what can we do, our hands are tied" to which i told him he's letting his hands be tied. I likened this to the illegal promissory notes changed to more "legal" ECB bonds, I say they're still illegal!!

the sooner we stop putting too much emphasis on what fools elected into positions on a gravy train have to say the better!!

dj jarvis

SB2013 wrote: »

Nothing to do with the constitution. It's the Garda Síochána Act and it's a restriction that is currently being challenged before EU courts.

its still the law as it stands , they are not above the law, does not matter what court it is in from of

Everyone knows the dangers. And that is why it is important that a police force is run properly by a person who both understands and respects the job that they do. They have not broken any rules or laws and if they are punished for not listening to the minister lie his way through another speech then the situation will only get worse for the government.

by taking part in any action regarding wages and conditions is against the act , and their action is being seen as discordance - that is why they are getting sanctioned - they are not doing that on a whim

It's been explained quite a few times that they were not involves in talks, they were merely informed of their progress. Their presence at the talks, or near the talks to be more accurate, was pointless.

so why bother turn up or even have a body to rep them? they had no problem with this set up when the wages were going into the stratosphere during the bench marking days

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

so why bother turn up or even have a body to rep them? they had no problem with this set up when the wages were going into the stratosphere during the bench marking days

What makes you think they weren't listened to then?

G Power

Dwork wrote: »

I hope they strike. Gardai and Nurses are the only members of the PS I would support to the hilt. The rest I can take or leave, including teachers. Try doing without Gardai and Nurses. You'll soon see what is really "of systemic importance".

teachers get a very bad rap, they should be as protected as the rest for their role in society

tayto lover

dj jarvis wrote: »

becasue they signed up for it knowing they would have little say if any if cuts came down the line.

if they want politicians to take a bigger hit , then make their voices heard at the ballot box.

that is how democracy works - not by holding the state to ransom,
they are doing themselves NO favors with this course of action.

the government wont and cant let this slide.

as for the question of why leave , if your wages are cut to a point where you think the job is not worth it , then im sorry but you leave.
that is how it works

Did their wives and children sign up for that too?

Chucky the tree

tayto lover wrote: »

Did their wives and children sign up for that too?

Well they never signed anything in the first place.

sfwcork

G Power wrote: »

teachers get a very bad rap, they should be as protected as the rest for their role in society

Anybody else you want to protect while your at it?

dj jarvis

G Power wrote: »

what physical force is stopping any garda from protesting??

as i explained to a detective in my local station the other day when he engaged me in conversation, he started by saying "what can we do, our hands are tied" to which i told him he's letting his hands be tied. I likened this to the illegal promissory notes changed to more "legal" ECB bonds, I say they're still illegal!!

the sooner we stop putting too much emphasis on what fools elected into positions on a gravy train have to say the better!!

nothing , but there will be disciplinary results , pay cut , rank cut , promotion being stopped , and worse case the army could be called in for civilian policing , and if that happens over money , the politicians and civil servants wont forget this in a hurry

everyone is forgetting the oath they took - they cant go back on that,
its to uphold the law of the land - part of this regulation is not to strike.

what part of this are people not getting?

3ndahalfof6

SB2013 wrote: »

And you will get exactly what you pay for.

Are we not getting that already.

SB2013

dj jarvis wrote: »

nothing , but there will be disciplinary results , pay cut , rank cut , promotion being stopped , and worse case the army could be called in for civilian policing , and if that happens over money , the politicians and civil servants wont forget this in a hurry

everyone is forgetting the oath they took - they cant go back on that,
its to uphold the law of the land - part of this regulation is not to strike.

what part of this are people not getting?

Pay cut has already been done. There are no promotional opportunities because there are no new recruits. Training courses and specialist units have been cut. Your disciplinary actions have already happened.

And i think you are wrong that the army can be called in for civilian policing. AFAIK they can only be deployed under martial law and this would cause serious issue with Irelands membership of the EU and possibly the UN. There has to be a clear division between police and military. I'm open to correction on this.

Besides, nobody has threatened to strike.

dj jarvis

tayto lover wrote: »

Did their wives and children sign up for that too?

no, the Garda knew what he was getting into after templemore , as i keep saying , not a peep from them when the wages were going up, now we are in the ****ter , they wont take the cut , like the rest of us , regardless of how or why we are here.

all this crap about take the government down , and hang politicians bla bla bla

we are where we are - and the Garda striking ( if it was to escalate to that point ) would only make the situation worse - how is that helpful to anyone?


sure lets EVERYONE stop working , we all have the right to do so , lets bring the house of cards down - rabble rabble rabble

corkery

Ok,

I didn't get a chance to read all comeents on this thread but it am listening to these debates all week on the radio from both sides.

One thing I would like to ask is what exactly is the salary of a middle ranking garda in Ireland these days. I am aware they, like every other civil servant have taken many pay cuts in recent years but I am still very curious to know what your average guard takes home anually.

If this is out in the air then maybe we could take some side of the argument but all I hear is we are taking blah blah blah %cut in our salaries. What salary are they now on?

Can any one give a ball park answer?

Big Davey

Dwork wrote: »

Sounds good. Sure I'm fairly confident you could easily retrain a few thousand as Gards. The newbies might all be loopers and bell-ends, but who cares, sure gards are only eejits worth bottom dollar anyway, right? . Or not.

I hope they strike. Gardai and Nurses are the only members of the PS I would support to the hilt. The rest I can take or leave, including teachers. Try doing without Gardai and Nurses. You'll soon see what is really "of systemic importance".

I totally agree regarding the nurses, double their wages it's fine with me. The other lads........... Eejits, your word not mine.

end of the road

sfwcork wrote: »

do you think that because somebody is in a low paid job their opinion is less important?

no, but i will not look down on somebody who decides to strike or take any other action either to improve or keep the current working conditions and pay, their not doing it for the hell of it their doing it because they most likely have families to look after and have bills to pay

tayto lover

awec wrote: »

Pretty much the same as every single other worker then, the ones who the usual suspects on here want taxed more.

How many people working for the likes of Boards for instance were killed on duty in the last 30/40 years if it is the same for all jobs?:D

dj jarvis

SB2013 wrote: »

Pay cut has already been done. There are no promotional opportunities because there are no new recruits. Training courses and specialist units have been cut. Your disciplinary actions have already happened.

And i think you are wrong that the army can be called in for civilian policing. AFAIK they can only be deployed under martial law and this would cause serious issue with Irelands membership of the EU and possibly the UN. There has to be a clear division between police and military. I'm open to correction on this.

Besides, nobody has threatened to strike.

no , but once again me, and others are expanding on a point , one of them being strike action - i am not the only one that is mentioning strike action,
a lot of posters have recommended it.


as for the army , they can and would be deployed if the Garda walked off the job , martial law not needed for the security of the state,
again , this is why they are not allowed action of any kind , to prevent the above from happening

zonEEE

SB2013 wrote: »

Pay cut has already been done. There are no promotional opportunities because there are no new recruits. Training courses and specialist units have been cut. Your disciplinary actions have already happened.

And i think you are wrong that the army can be called in for civilian policing. AFAIK they can only be deployed under martial law and this would cause serious issue with Irelands membership of the EU and possibly the UN. There has to be a clear division between police and military. I'm open to correction on this.

Besides, nobody has threatened to strike.

Politicians took a oath to act in the best interests of the country/people. This has not been upheld.

The gardai are the one force that could bring the country to a standstill by striking, and I hope they do....

The people of Ireland need a wake up call.

Our forefathers fought for our right to land which the banks are now taking away.

Big Davey

end of the road wrote: »

and replace the current expertese with those who will probably be of a lower caliber and who will take little pay for a hard and unthanking job? no thanks the current lot are our guards for a reason and thats how it should stay

They are guards because of nepotism , keep it country style recruiting , an inferior selection process. Most are ignorant, arrogant, small minded prats totally unsuited to the job. From my experience.

J K

dj jarvis wrote: »

as for the army , they can and would be deployed if the Garda walked off the job , martial law not needed for the security of the state,
again , this is why they are not allowed action of any kind , to prevent the above from happening

If they're scabs they can stand on the street with rifles and prevent looting and murder. They cannot investigate crime. The law doesn't allow them to arrest anyone, charge them or bring them to court.

The army won't be able to do much about the economic oblivion as businesses line up to leave a country with no police force.

dj jarvis

end of the road wrote: »

no, but i will not look down on somebody who decides to strike or take any other action either to improve or keep the current working conditions and pay, their not doing it for the hell of it their doing it because they most likely have families to look after and have bills to pay

but very few on this thread have sad they should not be able to voice their concerns - i agree with them , BUT the constitution and garda act is very clear on this - so if they buck this, it sets a dangerous precedence , they can not pick and choose what regulations to uphold and ones to ignore.

its all or nothing - they knew this, and know it - this is why there is not mass walk out by the garda - they are far from stupid.

they know full well what will happen if they push this,
my bet is that after some saber rattling they will back down , but might gain some concessions

This is a no win situation for the garda

the government are loving this - civil servants and the people all fighting over the crumbs

3ndahalfof6

Interesting, 2 powers that be fighting with each other, stalemate or checkmate, it will be one of the rare times either will become accountable to the public (as in face off) they feel the need to show their hands, while not realising the damage it will do.

dj jarvis

zonEEE wrote: »

Politicians took a oath to act in the best interests of the country/people. This has not been upheld.

The gardai are the one force that could bring the country to a standstill by striking, and I hope they do....

The people of Ireland need a wake up call.

Our forefathers fought for our right to land which the banks are now taking away.

Be careful what you wish for.

tayto lover

dj jarvis wrote: »

nothing , but there will be disciplinary results , pay cut , rank cut , promotion being stopped , and worse case the army could be called in for civilian policing , and if that happens over money , the politicians and civil servants wont forget this in a hurry

everyone is forgetting the oath they took - they cant go back on that,
its to uphold the law of the land - part of this regulation is not to strike.

what part of this are people not getting?

I bet you would have been a hoot back in Alabama in the 1960@s standing up for the law. Were those laws and regulations right too?
Would you have insisted the Black woman got up and gave you her bus seat?

Some laws and regulations are just stupid.
Refusing anyone a voice is stupid too.
Allowing Unions into talks but making other bodies sit in adjoining rooms getting the odd briefing is stupid too. No wonder they are protesting.

dj jarvis

J K wrote: »

If they're scabs they can stand on the street with rifles and prevent looting and murder. They cannot investigate crime. The law doesn't allow them to arrest anyone, charge them or bring them to court.

The army won't be able to do much about the economic oblivion as businesses line up to leave a country with no police force.

and that is why they are prevented from doing so.

sfwcork

end of the road wrote: »

no, but i will not look down on somebody who decides to strike or take any other action either to improve or keep the current working conditions and pay, their not doing it for the hell of it their doing it because they most likely have families to look after and have bills to pay

But you said the opinion or the support of the low paid public, sector doesnt matter?