Garda Sgts facing disciplinary hearing after walkout.

frankie_fisher

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

How did you know I went to Harvard???

i saw you cleaning the toilets

dj jarvis

frankie_fisher wrote: »

i saw you cleaning the toilets

OH NOES YO DIDNT

Pappa Charlie

frankie_fisher wrote: »

oh be quiet , you gormless idiot

I forgive you Crankie Frankie !

dj jarvis

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I forgive you Crankie Frankie ![/QUOT

He has a point in fairness

HondaSami

dj jarvis wrote: »

no , not at all , but you cant demand total solidity from the public if you are only seen to react when it YOUR pay and conditions that are threatened . and good pay and conditions at that


the public support the garda in general, but they are not blind or stupid,
i have never met a poor garda - met plenty of poor other people.

speaks volumes to me

There are plenty of guards who are struggling same as other people.

frankie_fisher wrote: »

oh be quiet , you gormless idiot

stop getting cranky.

tayto lover

frankie_fisher wrote: »

your willfull stupidity knows no bounds

he gladly sacraficed new recruits conditions in order to provide extra padding for those sisters he sent off smiling into the sun

he,s a hypocrite to be accusing the goverment of disrespecting rookie nurses , he,s no idiot , he knows their are finite resources

What ??? My stupidity ? :D:D
After the stuff you posted.

What was Doran to do?
Tell me how you would have reacted and still kept your nurses happy?
I am dying to hear this.

LizT

frankie_fisher don't post in this thread again please.

tayto lover

Nit nite all.
No hard feelings anyone

dj jarvis

HondaSami wrote: »

There are plenty of guards who are struggling same as other people.



stop getting cranky.

but that is my point , plenty of them are , because we all are,
why should they be exempt from the cutting back and "life style adjustment" just because they are Garda ?
hey great job they do and all that , but others do a worthy job for the public and are being hit - so what makes them special and exempt form the collective **** storm ?

HondaSami

Nite johnboy, nite Mary Ellen, can't remember the rest.

Nite tayto

true

HondaSami wrote: »

There are plenty of guards who are struggling same as other people.
.

The struggles are different though, as highlighted on that RTE half hour programme in to the high Garda pay and pensions last night.

Gardai are struggling with their average €1,300,000 pension pot and wondering how to spend it.
Ordinary people know they will never have a pension pot like that, even if they are on twice the average industrial wage and work 33% longer than the Gardai.

dj jarvis

tayto lover wrote: »

Nit nite all.
No hard feelings anyone

good call , i think you were due a nap , getting cranky

frankie_fisher

tayto lover wrote: »

Nit nite all.
No hard feelings anyone

dont suffocate on all that smug

dj jarvis

frankie_fisher wrote: »

il be banned by morning , you,l have to kick me out im afraid

go frankie - go

ill be waiting for you

HondaSami

dj jarvis wrote: »

but that is my point , plenty of them are , because we all are,
why should they be exempt from the cutting back and "life style adjustment" just because they are Garda ?
hey great job they do and all that , but others do a worthy job for the public and are being hit - so what makes them special and exempt form the collective **** storm ?

I'm not saying they should be exempt but cutting shift allowances is wrong and cutting Sunday pay is wrong IMO.
The hours are hard and unsociable so allowances should be generous IMO.
Its often a crappy job but there are good sides to it as well, like any job you get back what you give, it's not all bad.

LizT

frankie_fisher wrote: »

il be banned by morning , you,l have to kick me out im afraid

Done.

HondaSami

true wrote: »

The struggles are different though, as highlighted on that RTE half hour programme in to the high Garda pay and pensions last night.

Gardai are struggling with their average €1,300,000 pension pot and wondering how to spend it.
Ordinary people know they will never have a pension pot like that, even if they are on twice the average industrial wage and work 33% longer than the Gardai.

Maybe concentrate on the gardai who are walking the beat everyday and not the ones in suits., yes they do walk the beat.

Dyr

Maybe they should have got these shady looking characters to stage the walkout, hard to discipline a garda with their face covered and no numbers...


https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/549927_541430402575960_2116030440_n.jpg

dj jarvis

HondaSami wrote: »

I'm not saying they should be exempt but cutting shift allowances is wrong and cutting Sunday pay is wrong IMO.
The hours are hard and unsociable so allowances should be generous IMO.
Its often a crappy job but there are good sides to it as well, like any job you get back what you give, it's not all bad.

as i said , change working practices to make savings and keep core pay
the AGSI must have some ideas other then walking out

Boombastic

Bambi wrote: »

Maybe they should have got these shady looking characters to stage the walkout, hard to discipline a garda with their face covered and no numbers...


https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/549927_541430402575960_2116030440_n.jpg

It looks rough around those parts. The 'lady' with the sticks could turn on them at any minute

Pappa Charlie

dj jarvis wrote: »

as i said , change working practices to make savings and keep core pay
the AGSI must have some ideas other then walking out

Plenty! but they were handed a sheet of paper with the government agenda current situation and told take it or leave it and if you leave it you face legislation! That was the governments talks process with gardai, in the side room away from the talks by the way !

twowheelsonly

frankie_fisher wrote: »

what public servants are in such a possition ?

Plenty of them.

frankie_fisher wrote: »

hard cases make bad policy

the state cannot account for every single unfortunate individual situation , for whatever reason , some people are poor at managing their finance , beit due to poor purchases , addiction issues or whatever

That's very true but t doesn't help when the wages that you signed up for are drastically reduced with no equivalent reduction in the cost of living.

true wrote: »

the pension the average garda who left school with a pass leaving cert in 1982 gets now for the rest of his f***ing life is worth 1.3 million, according to the rte programme last night....and you think that f***ing pension is not good enough?

It said it on the telly so it must be true??
That makes it sound like every Garda on a pension will automatically collect €1.3m. Do the sums and you'll see that a Garda on a €500 pw pension (roughly what most with full service will be getting) would take 50 years to collect that.

frankie_fisher wrote: »

feed their families :rolleyes:

more like re carpet that investment property in dublin 6

A lot of older Guards had properties, how many younger ones have nowadays? Not too many I'd be willing to bet.

frankie_fisher wrote: »

RTE is vehemently pro public sector , always has been

all media outlets are pro frontline

RTE??? Pro Public Sector??
You just lost every argument you ever had!!

Are you Eddie Hobbs by any chance?

On RTÉ's Drivetime, the minister said he would not comment on the disciplinary proceedings but added that he did not think the passing of no confidence motions was appropriate for members of a disciplined force.

Just wondering if he would have said the same if it was his predecessor that 'earned' the vote of no confidence or would he have been jumping on the bandwagon in condemning him..

scuba8

A married couple on the old age pension would get around €450 per week. A married Garda gets about €500 per week on average. So a married Garda gets about €50 a week extra over and above someone who may have never worked a day in their lives. When RTE are talking about pension entitlements they do not mention that the old age pension is makes up the greater part of their overall pension. The Eddie Hobbs' of this world don't like to mention that they will get the old age pension and a private pension. They won't tell you how much a pension of €450 per week will cost in actuarial terms because they would have to take that away from their so called 1.3 million. The above figures would also apply to most of the 24/7 frontline staff.

nice_very

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Do you understand why loyalty and discipline are essential in organisations like AGS and the DF?

loyalty to who?? to the people of the state that they are sworn to protect? pity our politicians would'nt take a leaf from their book.

minikin

They should have said they were all just going to the jacks, the protest could have become known as 'The Blue Poo'

hawkelady

frankie_fisher wrote: »

the brazen sense of entitlement from that guard who doorstepped enda kenny was revolting , the banal " i didnt cause this mess " line crowned it

I take it you also believe the brazen sense of entitlement from that gombeen Edna Kenny when he door stepped the bank manager the other day was revolting.

VinLieger

frankie_fisher wrote: »

the brazen sense of entitlement from that guard who doorstepped enda kenny was revolting , the banal " i didnt cause this mess " line crowned it

Why is a normal citizen allowed to do it to pat rabbitte in a pub but a guard on his own time cant do it to Enda? Again i ask why are people on here in favour of gardai having less rights in their public and professional lives than every other citizen in the country?

greenoverred

Boombastic wrote: »

I've converted the amounts to euro's. They have a 10 point pay scale
UK 15 January 2013

Starting salaries will be cut by up to £4,259 (€5044) from April, making the starting salary £19,000 (€22,501). This salary will be given to those with the least or no relevant experience - such as those who join at 18. But some recruits will start on £22,000 (€26,054) if they have some experience, such as time spent as a special constable. The change in starting salaries will save an estimated £140m over five years.

But the deal also means that many constables will have the opportunity to move to the top of the pay scale - currently around £36,000 (€42,633) - more quickly



Ireland
CURRENT PAY GARDA RANK 2013

On attestation -27,100
After 22 weeks -29,792
After 1 year -31,442.............................

After 5 years -42,609
After 10 years -44,744
After 17 years - 48,695

So you factor in a proposed paycut for one police force into your post and compare it to the Garda pay from 2008. No pension levy, paycuts or proposed future cuts.

Good man. Forget the facts if they don't fit your argument

JRant

scuba8 wrote: »

A married couple on the old age pension would get around €450 per week. A married Garda gets about €500 per week on average. So a married Garda gets about €50 a week extra over and above someone who may have never worked a day in their lives. When RTE are talking about pension entitlements they do not mention that the old age pension is makes up the greater part of their overall pension. The Eddie Hobbs' of this world don't like to mention that they will get the old age pension and a private pension. They won't tell you how much a pension of €450 per week will cost in actuarial terms because they would have to take that away from their so called 1.3 million. The above figures would also apply to most of the 24/7 frontline staff.

That was a chore to read

Would the Gardas other half not be entitled to an old age pension as well?
If so then your figures are way off.

I couldn't care less what size pension Eddie Hobbs gets and frankly it's nobody elses business. It'll be a private pension that he's paid into himself to earn it.
Pensions of all civil servamts are guaranteed by the rest of the working stiffs in this country, while a Garda can swan off with a savage pension by their mind 40's.

seamus

Does anyone know on what basis the Garda Commissioner can discipline two members for walking out of an extracurricular union meeting outside of work hours?

If I was a member of a union (spit) and my boss was giving a union talk that I walked out of and he attempted to discipline me for it, I'd have him up in front of a judge before he could blink.

VinLieger

seamus wrote: »

Does anyone know on what basis the Garda Commissioner can discipline two members for walking out of an extracurricular union meeting outside of work hours?

If I was a member of a union (spit) and my boss was giving a union talk that I walked out of and he attempted to discipline me for it, I'd have him up in front of a judge before he could blink.

This is the part im confused with too, i dont see how he can. Also does he not realise how ****ed he is with the lower ranks if he does do this after Shatter basically told him to?

JRant

VinLieger wrote: »

Why is a normal citizen allowed to do it to pat rabbitte in a pub but a guard on his own time cant do it to Enda? Again i ask why are people on here in favour of gardai having less rights in their public and professional lives than every other citizen in the country?

It's in the contract they sign, why is that so hard to understand.
They can't join a union by law.
They can't ne part of a political party while being a member of AGS by law.
These are rights the rest of the citizens have but those who joined obviously were okay with that since 1922. Now this current bunch want the lot, incredible job security, a savage pension and high pay.
These groups couldn't give a shïte about services being cut or the new recuirts being paid an awful lot less. They just want the gravy train to keep on giving.

VinLieger

JRant wrote: »

It's in the contract they sign, why is that so hard to understand.
They can't join a union by law.
They can't ne part of a political party while being a member of AGS by law.
These are rights the rest of the citizens have but those who joined obviously were okay with that since 1922. Now this current bunch want the lot, incredible job security, a savage pension and high pay.
These groups couldn't give a shïte about services being cut or the new recuirts being paid an awful lot less. They just want the gravy train to keep on giving.

Thats fair enough but where does it say in the garda contract that a gardai on his own private time in plain clothes cannot go up to the leader of this country and complain?

JRant

seamus wrote: »

Does anyone know on what basis the Garda Commissioner can discipline two members for walking out of an extracurricular union meeting outside of work hours?

If I was a member of a union (spit) and my boss was giving a union talk that I walked out of and he attempted to discipline me for it, I'd have him up in front of a judge before he could blink.

I think a better way to understand the situation would be to compare it to an army situation.
Your commanding officer is giving a speech and you decide to get up and walk out halfway through. Now you would most certainly be hauled before a disciplinary board in this case. Same rules apply for na Gadai but they seem to think they are above such action because representative organisation (ie not unions because they're against the law) have been blowing smoke up the ordinary members arsés.

seamus

VinLieger wrote: »

Thats fair enough but where does it say in the garda contract that a gardai on his own private time in plain clothes cannot go up to the leader of this country and complain?

Well to a certain extent, the defence forces are structured slightly differently so that they're always "on duty", meaning that a private can't give dog's abuse to a general in the pub and claim being off-duty as a defence.

That is, that the integrity of the hierarchy is contingent on respecting the chain of command at all times, whether on or off duty.

Enda being the leader of the country and therefore the "head" of the defence forces, no member of the defence forces should be permitted to show disrespect or talk out of turn. If the Garda wouldn't be allowed talk to his super like that outside of work, then he can't talk to the Taoiseach like that either. And perhaps that's the same basis on which they propose to discipline the other two Gardai.

That said, it's not like the guy was shouting expletives at Enda. He was having a bit of a pointless shouty rant alright, but I wouldn't have said he was ever disrepectful.

JRant

VinLieger wrote: »

Thats fair enough but where does it say in the garda contract that a gardai on his own private time in plain clothes cannot go up to the leader of this country and complain?

It could be seen as trying to influence a political decision and therefore lead to disciplinary action.
You have to understand that the garda are a powerful organisation with so much power in their hands that they can not under any circumstances be seen to act against the state. Doorstepping an toiseach was an incredibly stupid thing to do for a serving member of the force and disciplinary action had to be taken.

J K

but those who joined obviously were okay with that since 1922 [/Quote]

if guards adopted that attitude we would still be working 365 days a year and having to make application for the possibility of a day off. but we have protested in the past and even striked which is why things changed. if there is to be no unions or ind actions then there must be an independent arbiter to adjudicate on garda pay and working conditions

VinLieger

JRant wrote: »

It could be seen as trying to influence a political decision and therefore lead to disciplinary action.

Thats just clutching at straws, and if thats the route they go through to discipline him its pretty disgraceful

JRant wrote: »

You have to understand that the garda are a powerful organisation with so much power in their hands that they can not under any circumstances be seen to act against the state. Doorstepping an toiseach was an incredibly stupid thing to do for a serving member of the force and disciplinary action had to be taken.

I agree it may not have been a responsible or intelligent thing to do but i disagree with the need for disciplinary action

VinLieger

J K wrote: »

but those who joined obviously were okay with that since 1922

if guards adopted that attitude we would still be working 365 days a year and having to make application for the possibility of a day off. but we have protested in the past and even striked which is why things changed. if there is to be no unions or ind actions then there must be an independent arbiter to adjudicate on garda pay and working conditions[/QUOTE]

Exactly simply having Shatter rule over them with an iron fist is not fair even if it is what they signed up for, times change and they need some kind of independent representation that is able to make changes

VinLieger

J K wrote: »

if guards adopted that attitude we would still be working 365 days a year and having to make application for the possibility of a day off. but we have protested in the past and even striked which is why things changed. if there is to be no unions or ind actions then there must be an independent arbiter to adjudicate on garda pay and working conditions

Exactly simply having Shatter rule over them with an iron fist is not fair even if it is what they signed up for, times change and they need some kind of independent representation that is able to make changes

ruthloss

Many Gardaí have been injured while they policed demonstrations to ensure peoples right to protest., four members are to be pilloried because they quietly walked out of a meeting in protest. Surely there is something wrong with this picture.

sfwcork

wrote:

VinLieger
Exactly simply having Shatter rule over them with an iron fist is not fair even if it is what they signed up for, times change and they need some kind of independent representation that is able to make changes

garbage.The private sector is ruled with an iron fist.Its about time the public sector was now too

Do you think if it was properly managed as it is the guards would have been able to quash over 50000 tickets and fines

VinLieger

sfwcork wrote: »

garbage.The private sector is ruled with an iron fist.Its about time the public sector was now too

Do you think if it was properly managed as it is the guards would have been able to quash over 50000 tickets and fines

You know full well thats not what i mean obviously they should be regulated and corruption stamped out but thats not what we are talking about here

JRant

J K wrote: »

but those who joined obviously were okay with that since 1922

if guards adopted that attitude we would still be working 365 days a year and having to make application for the possibility of a day off. but we have protested in the past and even striked which is why things changed. if there is to be no unions or ind actions then there must be an independent arbiter to adjudicate on garda pay and working conditions[/Quote]

Ah the old shifting of the goalposts.
Who said anything about going back to working 365 days a year? Mind you the way some of the representative bodies go on you'd swear the 24/7 rule still applied.

I'd agree with you about some sort of indepenent body to deal with such issues but this being the backward little corrupt bananna republic we live in I'd find it very hard to believe it could be in any way independent.

JRant

VinLieger wrote: »

Thats just clutching at straws, and if thats the route they go through to discipline him its pretty disgraceful



I agree it may not have been a responsible or intelligent thing to do but i disagree with the need for disciplinary action

It's far from clutching at straws i'm afraid. How is it disgraceful to discipline a serving member of the force for doorstepping the leader of the country. Think about it for just one second, its in direct breech of the rules laid down, that the garda signed upon starting with the force.
Being both stupid and irresponsible are most certainly grounds for disciplinary action.

snubbleste

JRant wrote: »

Same rules apply for na Gadai ...

Na Gadai

VinLieger

JRant wrote: »

It's far from clutching at straws i'm afraid. How is it disgraceful to discipline a serving member of the force for doorstepping the leader of the country. Think about it for just one second, its in direct breech of the rules laid down, that the garda signed upon starting with the force.
Being both stupid and irresponsible are most certainly grounds for disciplinary action.

You see now your changing your reason for disciplining, first it was an attempt to influence political policy and now its for doostepping the leader of the country

sfwcork

wrote:

ruthloss
Many Gardaí have been injured while they policed demonstrations to ensure peoples right to protest., four members are to be pilloried because they quietly walked out of a meeting in protest. Surely there is something wrong with this picture.

so in other words you just jumped on the thread without reading the comments

What those guards did was against the rules so thats why they are being punished

You cannot pick and choose the rules which you wish to adhere to.

JRant

snubbleste wrote: »

Na Gadai

What an unfortunate typo

JRant

VinLieger wrote: »

You see now your changing your reason for disciplining, first it was an attempt to influence political policy and now its for doostepping the leader of the country

?
Doorstepping the toiseach could be seen as trying to influence political policy. I made that very clear and there has been no shifting of anything.