The Sagan Thread

redzerredzer

doozerie wrote: »

You seem to be assuming that such an action is motivated by the person's desire to feel someone's bum because they find it so desirable. It seems to me that you are overlooking other motivators there (a desire to belittle/demean/bully the other person, because "it's a laugh", because it makes the culprit feel more manly (or something), etc.), some of which might be more prevalent in the middle of a race.

The sheer malevolence of such an action on the part of the culprit is often overlooked too regardless of what might appear to be their motivation. There can be a tendency to dismiss such sexual harassment/assault as if somehow it's a positive experience for the victim by confirming their sexual appeal and that therefore the harasser is doing something vaguely good. I'm not saying that's your stance, but that seems to me to be the tone of several of the posts on this thread so far. For some people empathy is beneath them, or something, though I'd guess that if they were the victim of harassment themselves they'd be very bothered if they got no empathy from others.

I did over look the idea that it would be done to demean and bully. I just thought of taking the piss or sexual desire. Neither of which did I condone.
Are you suggesting it might be done while passing a female cyclist to mock her for being slow or even the participation of female cycling as a sport.
I suppose if the good people of the boards cycling forum say it happens, then it must happen. It's a shame. I have been naive as I just can't imagine doing it.
Apologies for my BS post.

Morrisseeee

In an age of equality, where women want to be treated equally, then ye really will have to MTFU and take it on the cheek


/ok ok, i'll grab me cycling gilet and head for the hills :pac:

Seriously tho: to the Q > is it dis-respectful to women ? my answer is: I don't think so, because I'm asking myself if the situation is reversed, she pinches his bum, then it's a non-event, but in the current situation, it's an 'event'. But in a world of equality then it's either dis-respectful to both or it's not.

Maybe a better summation is, it's silly/stupid/non-sensible (rather than dis-respectful) for either of them to perform such an act.

petethedrummer

ericzeking wrote: »

One wonders what the reaction would be if the podium girl had given Sagan a congratulatory pat on the bottom..........

I wonder what Peter's reaction would be if he was podium boy for a Mr Gay Universe competition* and some muscle bound 6'4" beef cake pinched his ar5e. Would he feel a bit threatened or would it all be a big laugh?

If Katie Taylor had been presenting flowers would he pinch her ar5e?

BTW. I don't think he's some deviant sexual predator, he's just a thoughtless dope who needs to grow up a bit.

*the point of this analogy is not to have a go at gays but to put Peter in the "vulnerable" position.

petethedrummer

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Seriously tho: to the Q > is it dis-respectful to women ? my answer is: I don't think so, because I'm asking myself if the situation is reversed, she pinches his bum, then it's a non-event, but in the current situation, it's an 'event'. But in a world of equality then it's either dis-respectful to both or it's not.

There rightly is a double standard. Men have not suffered decades of sexual harassment from women. There are also pretty simple evolutionary reasons why women do not like uninvited and inappropriate approaches from men, however mild and jokey they may be.

If bottom pinching at an international televised event becomes the norm, what does the next guy who wants to push the envelope and have laugh do?

manwithaplan

It is not uncommon in a race or in a training group to get gently pushed in the arse by someone trying to make room for themselves or someone "encouraging" you to move up and take your turn. I have seen at least one instance in a race where a man did this to a female racer and let's just say that the motivation was not entirely clear.

petethedrummer

If anyone feels a hand on their arse this weekend, it's me trying to not get dropped.

doozerie

redzerredzer wrote: »

Are you suggesting it might be done while passing a female cyclist to mock her for being slow or even the participation of female cycling as a sport.

I honestly don't know the reasoning that lies behind it, I think people that harass others in that way have issues that are way beyond my understanding - I'd guess though that at some level it makes the harasser feel better about themselves, in much the same way that a toerag might try to physically intimidate a person on the street and walk away feeling somehow a bit "bigger".

godtabh

maybe he was pinching her arese to check how the winter went?

I know this thread is about Sagan but maybe it should be about Sagan and cycling. His off bike shinanegans are probably better suit to the campervan

doozerie

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Seriously tho: to the Q > is it dis-respectful to women ? my answer is: I don't think so, because I'm asking myself if the situation is reversed, she pinches his bum, then it's a non-event, but in the current situation, it's an 'event'. But in a world of equality then it's either dis-respectful to both or it's not.

Maybe a better summation is, it's silly/stupid/non-sensible (rather than dis-respectful) for either of them to perform such an act.

Personally I don't think it's a non-event if she pinches his bum. It would be unacceptable too. I do think it would be different though, but the reasons for that difference are rooted in the inequality that led Sagan to believe it was okay for him to do it in the first place.

For one thing, it is unlikely that Sagan would feel intimidated if his bum were pinched, given his general antics suggest that he is confident and cocky and acts very much like the holder of power in many situations (and harassment is very much about power in my view). I don't know what would intimidate Sagan but I suspect that a podium girl is not it - as mentioned by petethedrummer though, if Sagan's bum was pinched by a male beefcake then he might be less comfortable with it and see less humour in it, and likewise if he were harassed by a women such as Katie Taylor who has shown herself to be strong and tough and extremely capable in what is traditionally seen as a male role (fighting) then he might feel less certain about taking issue with her in that situation too.

For another thing, if Sagan made an issue of his bum being pinched then he'd likely have the support of his team as well as the general public (the benefit of being a celebrity). By contrast, the woman whose bum he pinched has, I suspect, little official support and at least some of the public happily dismiss her as dumb and somehow deserving of harassment because she works as a podium girl.

In terms of equality things have certainly improved, but there is a long way to go yet before women are really seen as equal and treated as such. All too often the balance of power lies with men in any situation, and quite often for all the wrong reasons. She did not have equal status, or rights, compared with Sagan on that podium to start with, and therefore the argument that equality requires her to just grin and bear what he did simply doesn't apply.

Spins

This thread sucks now!

petethedrummer

Spins wrote: »

This thread sucks now!

Sagan's fault

chakattack

doozerie wrote: »

In terms of equality things have certainly improved, but there is a long way to go yet before women are really seen as equal and treated as such.

I don't think so.

This is the crux of my problem with feminism. It's self defeating in its acknowledgement of what they "perceive" as inequality. Highlighting problems that don't really exist.

I think women have pretty much equal rights in modern western society and in many cases hold more power.

Tongue in cheek, but women certainly have more power to pinch arses and get away with it.

Morrisseeee

I think we all agree that the act is unacceptable (unless it becomes a sport !) regardless of who performs it, and both genders should receive the same sentence, ie. equality and all that jazz.

petethedrummer wrote: »

There rightly is a double standard. Men have not suffered decades of sexual harassment from women.

There shouldn't be a double standard. Men have suffered sexual harassment from women thru the decades, unless you mean that women's cases are in the vast majority, not easy to prove as men suffer in silence.

doozerie wrote: »

Personally I don't think it's a non-event if she pinches his bum. I do think it would be different though, but the reasons for that difference are rooted in the inequality that led Sagan to believe it was okay for him to do it in the first place.

The general public's opinion would be that it's a non-event. It shouldn't be different in a world of equality.

doozerie wrote: »

For one thing, it is unlikely that Sagan would feel intimidated if his bum were pinched

Conjecture, your honour :pac:

MPFG

chakattack wrote: »

I don't think so.

This is the crux of my problem with feminism. It's self defeating in its acknowledgement of what they "perceive" as inequality. Highlighting problems that don't really exist.

I think women have pretty much equal rights in modern western society and in many cases hold more power.

Red Alert! Red Alert ! ........man talking through arse warning !

Morrisseeee

MPFG wrote: »

Red Alert! Red Alert ! ........man talking through arse warning !

Is that a form of harassment ?! hmmmmmmm

petethedrummer

Morrisseeee wrote: »

There shouldn't be a double standard. Men have suffered sexual harassment from women thru the decades, unless you mean that women's cases are in the vast majority, not easy to prove as men suffer in silence.

Well if you want it that way. Peter Sagan was wrong for his actions as he has belittled all sexual harassment sufferers including men who have been harassed by women.

I do not believe sexual harassment perpetrated by women on men is even vaguely close that done by men on women. But I am willing to listen to any evidence or reports you can link to. I'd say male on male sexual harassment dwarfs that of female on male.

Of course there are other forms of harassment women are much better at than us men. But that's for another day.

Kav0777

petethedrummer wrote: »

I do not believe sexual harassment perpetrated by women on men is even vaguely close that done by men on women. But I am willing to listen to any evidence or reports you can link to.

You obviously haven't seen Disclosure.

Morrisseeee

petethedrummer wrote: »

he has belittled all sexual harassment sufferers including men who have been harassed by women.

That's a bit harsh I think, and these people agree :



/actually, what's the guy on the bottom left looking at ?!

petethedrummer wrote: »

Of course there are other forms of harassment women are much better at than us men. But that's for another day.

Yikes, watch your back

Dermot Illogical

Morrisseeee wrote: »

/actually, what's the guy on the bottom left looking at ?!

The same thing that keeps catching my eye, probably.

Icyseanfitz

jesus thats some ****e, if i saw someone grabbing someones arse while said person was trying to race id give the fecker a good slapping, cant be doing that ffs

petethedrummer

All of the males seem not to be grabbing female bottoms there. What the guy on the bottom row second from left is doing, I'm not sure. Perhaps resting his head on the back of a male knee. They probably all realise at their age that it's not okay to grab a woman's arse.:pac:

Eamonnator

[QUOTE=What the guy on the bottom row second from left is doing,

Freudian slip?

Icyseanfitz

Morrisseeee wrote: »

/actually, what's the guy on the bottom left looking at ?!

4th from the left, top row

AstraMonti

Can we split the thread from post 42 and after to a "Sagan likes to grabs an ass every now and then" so we can continue with our lives in this one? :P

buffalo

AstraMonti wrote: »

Can we split the thread from post 42 and after to a "Sagan likes to grabs an ass every now and then" so we can continue with our lives in this one? :P

I conquer. </simpsons>

Morrisseeee

Eamonnator wrote: »

What the guy on the bottom row second from left is doing,

Freudian slip?

Actually, how many guys are in the pic ?

I'm going with............4

denbatt

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Actually, how many guys are in the pic ?

I'm going with............4

One of them is Peter Sagan.

NamelessPhil

chakattack wrote: »

I don't think so.

This is the crux of my problem with feminism. It's self defeating in its acknowledgement of what they "perceive" as inequality. Highlighting problems that don't really exist.

I think women have pretty much equal rights in modern western society and in many cases hold more power.

In the context of pro-cycling, please read these two articles and associated links and then tell me that women hold all the power.

Lizzie Armistead's comments on sexism in cycling

Nicole Cooke's retirement statement

chakattack

You have me there Phil, but we're not talking about women's cycling.
I'm sure I could find counter examples of men getting a raw(er) deal in female dominated realms such as fashion if I wanted.

I thinks it's poor that women's cycling gets less coverage (I watch it with just as much enthusiasm) and thus less revenue etc. but I stand by my comments in a general sense.

In society as a whole I think men and women are very much equal.

godtabh

chakattack wrote: »

You have me there Phil, but we're not talking about women's cycling.
I'm sure I could find counter examples of men getting a raw(er) deal in female dominated realms such as fashion if I wanted.

I thinks it's poor that women's cycling gets less coverage (I watch it with just as much enthusiasm) and thus less revenue etc. but I stand by my comments in a general sense.

In society as a whole I think men and women are very much equal.

if you are going down that route post up a few porno links and explain the merits of paying female porno stars over male