Ethnically Catholic...

shopaholic01

I wonder how many Irish people would choose to have their name remained from the baptism register if it was still allowed? It was stopped due to an increase in demand.

Grand Moff Tarkin

Fallen Jedi or to be more correct about it Sith Lord in training.

Midlife Crashes

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I think the amount of 'true' Christians is going to continuously diminish as time goes by as Irish children/people are only going to become more educated.

Because Christians are either too stupid to research the "truth" or have been brainwashed ?? Intelligent, well educated people are instantly atheists ???
A decline in Christianity is nothing new. It would be hard to find a century when the church and clergy have not faced challenges in ministry and concerns about decline. For example the decline that challenged Christianity during the last phase of imperial persecution in the early 4th century, when Christians lapsed or were martyred and churches and Christian books destroyed. The faith ultimately spread and flourished in response...
Things like this has happened a number of times throughout history but the church always comes back stronger while welcoming lapsed Christians back...

shopaholic01

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Because Christians are either too stupid to research the "truth" or have been brainwashed ?? Intelligent, well educated people are instantly atheists ???
A decline in Christianity is nothing new. It would be hard to find a century when the church and clergy have not faced challenges in ministry and concerns about decline. For example the decline that challenged Christianity during the last phase of imperial persecution in the early 4th century, when Christians lapsed or were martyred and churches and Christian books destroyed. The faith ultimately spread and flourished in response...
Things like this has happened a number of times throughout history but the church always comes back stronger while welcoming lapsed Christians back...

Numbers falling in developed countries with access to education, conversely numbers are increasing in under-developed countries with poor or non-existant education. Coincidence?

Knasher

Cian92 wrote: »

If you want to pass your local church next Sunday, you will most likely see that they are packed. People struggle to get parking.

Mass attendance at my local church suddenly went way up two years ago. Coincidentally it happened on the exact same week that they decided to reduce the number of masses per week.

Grayson

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Because Christians are either too stupid to research the "truth" or have been brainwashed ?? Intelligent, well educated people are instantly atheists ???
A decline in Christianity is nothing new. It would be hard to find a century when the church and clergy have not faced challenges in ministry and concerns about decline. For example the decline that challenged Christianity during the last phase of imperial persecution in the early 4th century, when Christians lapsed or were martyred and churches and Christian books destroyed. The faith ultimately spread and flourished in response...
Things like this has happened a number of times throughout history but the church always comes back stronger while welcoming lapsed Christians back...

If the only example you can find is a comparison to a nascent church, you're grasping. But strangely, your analogy can work. The difference here is that athiesm and agnosticism is on the rise. It is in the same position that christianity was in the 4th century. And christianity is in the same position that the roman and greek pantheons were then.
Back then christianity was the new kid on the block, offering a new system of thinking and doing that was in direct contrast to the old way superstitious of thinking. Now christianity is the old superstitious way of thinking.

Micky Dolenz

My local parish Church is full most Saturday evenings and Sunday mornings.

A lot of it is down to the Priest, He does say a good mass and his chalice work is second to none.

krudler

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Numbers falling in developed countries with access to education, conversely numbers are increasing in under-developed countries with poor or non-existant education. Coincidence?

It's why Europe is "no longer a priority" for the Church (their words) and they've focused their attention on South America, poverty and religion go hand in hand.

Grayson

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Numbers falling in developed countries with access to education, conversely numbers are increasing in under-developed countries with poor or non-existant education. Coincidence?

Actually, on that survey I posted earlier the higher your level of education, the less likely you were to attend mass.
http://www.catholicbishops.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Practice-and-Belief-among-Catholics-in-the-Republic-of-Ireland.pdf

(P14)

Primary or equivalent 67.7%
Intermediate/Group/Junior Cert or equivalent 60.5%
None/Primary not completed 57.9%
PhD 50.0%
Leaving Cert or equivalent 48.6%
Postgraduate Higher Diploma/Masters 45.9%
Diploma or Certificate 45.0%
Primary Degree 34.6%

Except for masters and PhD's. Which is kinda weird. I'm wondering if that's because they are within a separate professional bracket where there might be a corrispondance with income? Not sure, but definitely food for thought.

(Iknow I'm a bit of a math nerd. But that survey is really interesting)

EDIT: I just read some more of the survey. 5.8% of catholics do not believe in life after death. And 10% believe in reincarnation.

rubadub

Grayson wrote: »

Except for masters and PhD's.

They're going just to pray they find a real job someday.

Midlife Crashes

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Numbers falling in developed countries with access to education, conversely numbers are increasing in under-developed countries with poor or non-existant education. Coincidence?

Christianity is declining in the West around the time that the Western World is slowly loosing is standing on the world stage. In contrast it is growing in developing countries that are gaining standing on the world stage.
In China estimates point that there are up to 130 million Christians. 50 years ago there were under 500 thousand..

krudler

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Christianity is declining in the West around the time that the Western World is slowly loosing is standing on the world stage. In contrast it is growing in developing countries that are gaining standing on the world stage.
In China estimates point that there are up to 130 million Christians. 50 years ago there were under 500 thousand..

Yeah but in China 130 million people is like a small town in Mayo.

Grayson

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Christianity is declining in the West around the time that the Western World is slowly loosing is standing on the world stage. In contrast it is growing in developing countries that are gaining standing on the world stage.
In China estimates point that there are up to 130 million Christians. 50 years ago there were under 500 thousand..

Why are those two related?

I mean, you could say that traditional christian values that the west was founded on were not strong enough to survive and that's why it declined. Or you could be saying that it's declining because people let go of those values. If it's that, how can you demonstrate that those values are what gave the west political dominance since the mid 1800's (I won't include before because although there was some contact, the world was really just isolated spheres before that point. And any argument for christian dominance could be made just as equally for buddhism in the far east or islam in the middle east)

Grayson

krudler wrote: »

Yeah but in China 130 million people is like a small town in Mayo.

To be fair, evangelical faiths are exploding across the far east. There's huge numbers in Korea for example. There are even some areas that catholicism is expanding in.

shopaholic01

Grayson wrote: »

Actually, on that survey I posted earlier the higher your level of education, the less likely you were to attend mass.

Education - the work of the devil!

Grayson wrote: »

EDIT: I just read some more of the survey. 5.8% of catholics do not believe in life after death. And 10% believe in reincarnation.

Now that's strange. Surely that's the main selling point for religion - eternal/after life?

Grayson

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Education - the work of the devil!


Now that's strange. Surely that's the main selling point for religion - eternal/after life?

I think they're talking about people who ticked the box for catholic. So that would mean that an additional 5% of catholics are athiests, like Dara O'Briain.

Midlife Crashes

Grayson wrote: »

Actually, on that survey I posted earlier the higher your level of education, the less likely you were to attend mass.

Christianity is growing in places with poverty. In these places the IQ levels are obviously lower. In developed countries there is no real correlation between intelligence and faith..

padd b1975

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Christianity is growing in places with poverty. In these places the IQ levels are obviously lower. In developed countries there is no real correlation between intelligence and faith..

What makes you think a persons IQ is related to how rich or poor they are?

shopaholic01

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Christianity is growing in places with poverty. In these places the IQ levels are obviously lower. In developed countries there is no real correlation between intelligence and faith..

It's limited or lack of education that's a factor, as opposed to IQ.

BrokenArrows

They should add new questions.

Q. Do you practice the above stated religion.
A. Yes/No

Q. If Yes how often.
A. Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Only on Religious holidays.

Midlife Crashes

padd b1975 wrote: »

What makes you think a persons IQ is related to how rich or poor they are?

In places where IQ is lowest (70's or less) are mainly poor countries. Tanzania, Uganda, South Africa, Senegal, Nigeria, Mali, Kenya, Ivory Coast, Guatamala, Ghana and Angola...

ABajaninCork

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

In places where IQ is lowest (70's or less) are mainly poor countries. Tanzania, Uganda, South Africa, Senegal, Nigeria, Mali, Kenya, Ivory Coast, Guatamala, Ghana and Angola...

Based on what exactly? The fact that the majority of the people in the countries you mention are not white??

Please say that isn't what you mean...

ScumLord

Fromthetrees wrote: »

That's what made me create the thread.

The thought that most people don't listen to the Catholic Church yet are Catholic in many of their behaviors.

Go to mass every so often and be nice in front of the priest. God will be none the wiser.

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Christianity is declining in the West around the time that the Western World is slowly loosing is standing on the world stage. In contrast it is growing in developing countries that are gaining standing on the world stage.

I've heard this nonsense before. Europe isn't really losing it's standing. If anything it's power is growing through more cooperation. Europe is still the heart of advanced engineering. While iPods and the like are manufactured in China the west designs them and then tells them exactly how to make them. If we're not very specific with our instructions the Chinese mess it up.

The developing countries have been developing for decades and have missionaries in them for longer. The only reason the church can convert so many is because their uneducated and desperate for a European lifestyle.

Boo2112

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Based on what exactly? The fact that the majority of the people in the countries you mention are not white??

Please say that isn't what you mean...

That is the best twisting of words I have ever seen. Bravo.

I think (hope) two more generations and catholicism is fvcked in this country. I can't wait for the day church and state seperate.

stmol32

Fromthetrees wrote: »

So, as a nation, are we actually atheist but ethnically Catholic?

I would say this means that as a nation we have too many hypocrites.

If it was just laziness of thinking I could probably forgive but the census is literally asking you to stand up and be counted.

Still huge amounts of people are falling over themselves to be in the club even though they have no intention of following the club rules and might not even believe in anything it stands for.

I say "might not" believe because we'll never be sure because the one time we try to do an accurate count, otherwise non-believers suddenly decide they want to be part of the statistics (for reasons I can't fathom but I'm sure they are varied and wide).

ABajaninCork

Boo2112 wrote: »

That is the best twisting of words I have ever seen. Bravo.

I think (hope) two more generations and catholicism is fvcked in this country. I can't wait for the day church and state seperate.

I twisted nothing. I quoted the post and asked what the poster meant. What did you think I meant??

frankie_fisher

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Off the top of my head the last census put the number of Catholics at nearly 90%, considering there's about 5% Protestant and we've got plenty of Muslims and Hindus and other religions does that mean there's almost a clean sweep of essentially everyone considering themselves to be a Catholic.

Mass attendance is at an all time low, the Catholic Church has never had such little influence on society in the history of our state yet it's very rare someone won't have their child Christened or won't get married in a church or won't have their funeral in a church.

So, as a nation, are we actually atheist but ethnically Catholic?

ireland is still culturally catholic

the rate of church attendance in sweeden is less than 10% but that country is still culturally lutheran

religon ( like it or not ) has had a profound influence in shaping various countries charechter

stmol32

Devon High Radiator wrote: »

There are a lot more practicing Catholics of all ages out there than the atheists and church bashers would like to admit.......

......Every sunday its hard to get parking at the church (various different ones) and there is always a good crowd, I think a while back churches looked a bit quieter but recently there is always plenty at mass again.

This is the problem in a nutshell. There may well be more practicing Catholics than we realise. I suspect there isn't but I can't know that until there is an accurate count.

You may reckon it's harder to get parking before and I may reckon the two church car parks I can see from my flat are only ever used at 5:30 which is funeral time. The point is neither is right unless we have accurate statistics.

Madam_X

Can't remember the census now but is there a box that says "Catholic - non practising"? Because that's what I reckon a lot of people would select. They're baptised catholic so they are essentially catholic, just not observing it.

shopaholic01

Madam_X wrote: »

Can't remember the census now but is there a box that says "Catholic - non practising"? Because that's what I reckon a lot of people would select. They're baptised catholic so they are essentially catholic, just not observing it.

No, that option is not there.

http://www.census.ie/_uploads/documents/English_Household_form_with_do_not_complete_stamp_-_2011.pdf

stmol32

frankie_fisher wrote: »

ireland is still culturally catholic

the rate of church attendance in sweeden is less than 10% but that country is still culturally lutheran

religon ( like it or not ) has had a profound influence in shaping various countries charechter

Just because a certain influence was present in a countries past does that mean it should be a used as a catch-all label to define the the country when that influence has waned?

For example England has a low church attendance and is quite secular but Anglicanism also has had a profound influence in shaping that countries character yet I wouldn't call it culturally Anglican.

Another profound influence on England's character was the acquiring of an Empire, they weren't alone in this of course as lots of countries have this past including Sweden,yet it would be unfair to call England an imperial nation in this century (or would it?)

I don't necessarily disagree with you I just thought you raised a good point that deserved a bit of discussion.

Fromthetrees

stmol32 wrote: »

I would say this means that as a nation we have too many hypocrites.

If it was just laziness of thinking I could probably forgive but the census is literally asking you to stand up and be counted.

Still huge amounts of people are falling over themselves to be in the club even though they have no intention of following the club rules and might not even believe in anything it stands for.

I say "might not" believe because we'll never be sure because the one time we try to do an accurate count, otherwise non-believers suddenly decide they want to be part of the statistics (for reasons I can't fathom but I'm sure they are varied and wide).

That's what I want to understand better, I'm a Catholic and can speak as Gaeilge but can't really do either properly.

frankie_fisher

stmol32 wrote: »

Just because a certain influence was present in a countries past does that mean it should be a used as a catch-all label to define the the country when that influence has waned?

For example England has a low church attendance and is quite secular but Anglicanism also has had a profound influence in shaping that countries character yet I wouldn't call it culturally Anglican.

Another profound influence on England's character was the acquiring of an Empire, they weren't alone in this of course as lots of countries have this past including Sweden,yet it would be unfair to call England an imperial nation in this century (or would it?)

I don't necessarily disagree with you I just thought you raised a good point that deserved a bit of discussion.

i meant it was culturally lutheran in a religous context , very few countries have no religous influence of any kind , im not saying its a possitive or a negative btw , just a reality

incidentally , i would not describe ireland as ethnically catholic ,i dont like that description

McTigs

Devon High Radiator wrote: »

I don't agree with getting rid of catholic education in national schools or secondary schools either.

religious belief is personal thing for each person, their families, their faith community. I'd never seek to disparage someones personal beliefs but If parents want to raise their children catholic they should be taking that responsibility on themselves, be it at home or as part of a sunday school organised in their parish. Religion has no place in a national education system.

stmol32

frankie_fisher wrote: »

i meant it was culturally lutheran in a religous context , very few countries have no religous influence of any kind , im not saying its a possitive or a negative btw , just a reality

incidentally , i would not describe ireland as ethnically catholic ,i dont like that description

I agree it would be foolish to say a nation has no religious influence and I'd go further and say it would be a shame to ignore that influence completely when taking about culture because you then deny some properly majestic and awe inspiring sights (looking at you high crosses, round towers and St. Michan's church).

I just don't want the nation I am accidentally part of to be defined by only one influence when there are many more that have made us who we are.

Not sure how to crowbar this into my post but I particularly hate when some media or political talking head utters that truly vile statement "this is a catholic country you know". I can't tell ye how that makes me blood boil.

The only saving grace is that they seem to have subtly changed it to "this is still a catholic country you know" so they seem to know which way the wind is blowing.

stmol32

stmol32 wrote: »

The only saving grace .....

Hah, wrote that without realising, maybe we are culturally catholic after all....Jaysis (that too).

LordSutch

From the 2011 Census figures in Wikipedia . . . . . .

Roman Catholic (RC) 84.2%
Lapsed Roman Catholic 0.03%

Only 0.03% have lapsed, I find that hard to believe.

Henlars67

LordSutch wrote: »

From the 2011 Census figures in Wikipedia . . . . . .

Roman Catholic (RC) 84.2%
Lapsed Roman Catholic 0.03%

Only 0.03% have lapsed, I find that hard to believe.

Wikipedia is an incredibly reliable source of information

LordSutch

I hear you, but its funny to read it none the less.

frankie_fisher

stmol32 wrote: »

I agree it would be foolish to say a nation has no religious influence and I'd go further and say it would be a shame to ignore that influence completely when taking about culture because you then deny some properly majestic and awe inspiring sights (looking at you high crosses, round towers and St. Michan's church).

I just don't want the nation I am accidentally part of to be defined by only one influence when there are many more that have made us who we are.

Not sure how to crowbar this into my post but I particularly hate when some media or political talking head utters that truly vile statement "this is a catholic country you know". I can't tell ye how that makes me blood boil.

The only saving grace is that they seem to have subtly changed it to "this is still a catholic country you know" so they seem to know which way the wind is blowing.

i dont like the " this is a catholic country line " at all , such statements are nearly always used when someone is moralising to others , i was refering to culture , to me , religon is largely cultural

Henlars67

LordSutch wrote: »

I hear you, but its funny to read it none the less.

It's actually quite possible that the census did return a figure like that.

there was an 'other' option where you could fill in what you wanted.

Likely that a figure like that did so, whereas if it was an actual option to tick 'lapsed catholic' the figure would be much higher

Pherekydes

Henlars67 wrote: »

Wikipedia is an incredibly reliable source of information

Both are correct. You can confirm it yourself on the CSO's website.

Dave!

LordSutch wrote: »

From the 2011 Census figures in Wikipedia . . . . . .

Roman Catholic (RC) 84.2%
Lapsed Roman Catholic 0.03%

Only 0.03% have lapsed, I find that hard to believe.

Was "Lapsed Roman Catholic" one of the choices, or is it that X amount of people thought to write that in the text box? I suspect it was the latter. That section of the Census is so open to (mis?)interpretation and misleading that it's hard to get any kind of relevant stats from it.

aidan24326

ejmaztec wrote: »

No it's just an obsessive atheist minority thinking that anyone making themselves out to be a Catholic is a liar.

Well done on winning the award for most stupid post of the week.

Nobody, atheist or otherwise, has any problem with a person calling themself catholic where they practise that religion as it should be. The issue is with people identifying themselves as catholic even though they don't actually practise much of what that religion requires, and don't adhere to many of its rules and beliefs.

And it's a fact that we have a huge number of those half-arsed 'catholics' in this country. My dad would readily call himself a catholic even though he doesn't go to mass, never prays and certainly doesn't believe in a lot of the things that the Vatican would require you to. So in what meaningful sense is he a catholic? He isn't. Yet he'll declare that he is. That's the problem.

stmol32

I truly believe (not the right word in the context but give us a pass) in statistics and that's why the Census and CSO is the best thing to quote in this thread.

Conversely, I truly don't put much store in anecdotal evidence (although I realise that when people say that they also realise anecdotal evidence isn't a good indicator but it is their experience of the issue at hand).

That said I've spent a happy hour and a half (happy for me because I'm a nerd and I literally have nothing I'd rather be doing) trying to shotgun marriage the idea of anecdotal evidence and statistical evidence together.

I worked out I know 135 people well enough to offer an opinion of their thinking.
So I wrote their names in a spreadsheet, these are family, friends and acquaintances.

Of these I discounted 24 because although I reckoned how they'd land on religion I didn't know for definite.

I discounted 7 more because they're people I work with and I know they are from country's where there is a Muslim influence or Muslim theocracy.

I should say, don't know how devout they are because, although they attend prayer regularly (we have a mosque in work) this could also be because they are immigrants to this country and as an emigrant you gravitate to what's familiar.

All I can say for sure is I've invited them for drinks and they very politely declined. They're a great bunch of lads and lasses so this may have been because of their faith or else they took one look in my Jameson scarred eyeballs and said "no, thanks, but just no"

I digress, the point is in my amateur Census of people I know that leaves us 104 people I could reasonably guess their attitude to Catholicism.

So I did a spreadsheet - 4 people devout catholic believers (all over 60, parents of friends) 100 people non believers (not necessarily atheists that's another debate) but definitely haven't st foot in a church of a Sunday.

SO what does this incredibly tedious tome tell us? Well nothing really because, as I said earlier, anectdotal evidence isn't evidence, but if you're going to say things "like everyone I know" maybe try to quantify everyone you know and you might be surprised.

stmol32

Dave! wrote: »

Was "Lapsed Roman Catholic" one of the choices, or is it that X amount of people thought to write that in the text box....

This is what I'm wondering too, and unless I'm completely on the wrong track, what the OP started the thread for.

Statistically were all god fearing, pope obeying non condom wearing virgins waiting to be married. We go to mass every Sunday, and above all else truly know for a fact that when we eat wafers in mass they miraculously become living flesh of the son of God.

I don't know anyone like that, does anyone?.
I know a very small amount of people who are self described Catholics and I reckon fairly devout and kind hearted people, we tend to just agree to disagree but even they draw they line at the accepted catholic citeria I mentioned above (hint.. it's the pope one)

So I'm still none the wiser why people put catholic down on the Census form? It's completely non binding, it's relatively anonymous and, other that for statistical purpose it doesn't mean anything so why in Odin's name do 90% of Irish people still say they are Catholic?????

Henlars67

Their is a box which says catholic and people just ticked it.

There are numerous other religious listed on the question and a box for 'Other' and'No Religion'

Had there been a box for 'Lapsed Catholic' the chances are a high % would have ticked it, but there wasn't so they just ticked 'catholic' rather than tick 'other' and fill in 'Lapsed Catholic in the space provided

Grayson

stmol32 wrote: »

I truly believe (not the right word in the context but give us a pass) in statistics and that's why the Census and CSO is the best thing to quote in this thread.

The survey I quoted earlier is an EU one on religion.

humbert

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Christianity is growing in places with poverty. In these places the IQ levels are obviously lower. In developed countries there is no real correlation between intelligence and faith..

I would say one out of three ain't bad, but it's not great either.

LordSutch

Henlars67 wrote: »

Their is a box which says catholic and people just ticked it.

Sorry to be pedantic but the box always says Roman Catholic (note the capitals).
Protestants are also catholic.