Ethnically Catholic...

Shenshen

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

That's not for you to decide. Religion is subjective, if I believe I'm a Catholic, then I'm a Catholic, regardless of what you happen to think about the matter. And regardless of what questions I may have about my faith.

If I believe I'm a Manchester United fan, but actually couldn't give a toss about football at all let alone any specific club, does that make me a Manchester United fan?

And if so, what's the point of the term in the first place?

--Kaiser--

padd b1975 wrote: »

I would go with the word of the census.

Calling oneself a Catholic does not make it so, any more than me declaring myself a mongoose would make me one

Teyla Emmagan

Seachmall wrote: »

I think determining your religion by which Church claims you is fairly arbitrary.

If you don't believe in the Catholic ethos you are not Catholic by most people's standards regardless if the Church has your name on a piece of paper somewhere.

Otherwise we could argue that 95%+ of the population are Catholic as most Irish are presumably Baptised and Confirmed by the RCC and have never been kicked out.

I'd acknowledge someone as Catholic even if they'd never stepped inside a Catholic Church as long as they believed in teachings of the Church.

No, I'm claiming the Church in this instance, not the other way around. I believe I'm a Catholic although other people are saying that to be Catholic you have to believe 100% in everything the Church says. Which I don't actually think is the case. As krudler says though, the Church does claim people who no longer feel they are Catholic by virtue of the fact they don't let them leave.

--Kaiser--

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

That's not for you to decide. Religion is subjective, if I believe I'm a Catholic, then I'm a Catholic, regardless of what you happen to think about the matter. And regardless of what questions I may have about my faith.

Bullshit. It's not a smorgasbord religion, if you don't follow Catholic dogma and it's rules then you are not a Catholic, end of story

kowloon

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

Bullsh(t. God'll still have me even if I'm struggling with my faith. And cursing.

If you can get around the swear filter God is happy that you made the effort. :pac:

Seachmall

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I believe I'm a Catholic although other people are saying that to be Catholic you have to believe 100% in everything the Church says. Which I don't actually think is the case.

Going on this I think you'd be described as an "A la Carte Catholic".

starlings

Shenshen wrote: »

If I believe I'm a Manchester United fan, but actually couldn't give a toss about football at all let alone any specific club, does that make me a Manchester United fan?

And if so, what's the point of the term in the first place?

Depends who you ask, and how you ask.

The census has to work on trust that people will fill in their details honestly, so that it can be used for demographic reference. People who regard themselves as Catholic will put that down, regardless of how the Catholic church sees their participation in the religion.

If I wrote on it that I was Jewish, the CSO would take that at face value, but if I rocked up to a Passover ceremony I doubt I'd be accepted as Jewish.

Teyla Emmagan

Seachmall wrote: »

Going on this I think you'd be described as an "A la Carte Catholic".

No, I'm very holy. I shall probably be beatified soon in fact.

I just find it hilarious how prescriptive people are being here about other peoples faith!!

OCorcrainn

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Bullshit. It's not a smorgasbord religion, if you don't follow Catholic dogma and it's rules then you are not a Catholic, end of story

So by your reasoning above, Pope John XXIII is not a Catholic because he supported contraception? Your logic is flawed.

Three Seasons

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

That's not for you to decide. Religion is subjective, if I believe I'm a Catholic, then I'm a Catholic, regardless of what you happen to think about the matter. And regardless of what questions I may have about my faith.

I believe I'm a vegetarian. So what if I eat steak for breakfast lunch and dinner, I believe I'm a vegetarian therefore I am one.

Henlars67

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

That's not for you to decide. Religion is subjective, if I believe I'm a Catholic, then I'm a Catholic, regardless of what you happen to think about the matter. And regardless of what questions I may have about my faith.

If I believed I was a multiple Olympic Gold Medalist, would it make me one?

Three Seasons

OCorcrainn wrote: »

So by your reasoning above, Pope John XXII is not a Catholic because he supported contraception? Your logic is flawed.

If contraception being wrong is a fundamental part of Catholicism then the pope isn't really a catholic. It's simple really.

Shenshen

starlings wrote: »

Depends who you ask, and how you ask.

The census has to work on trust that people will fill in their details honestly, so that it can be used for demographic reference. People who regard themselves as Catholic will put that down, regardless of how the Catholic church sees their participation in the religion.

If I wrote on it that I was Jewish, the CSO would take that at face value, but if I rocked up to a Passover ceremony I doubt I'd be accepted as Jewish.

Which is exactly why I take those census results with a tiny pinch of salt.

To me, personally, it doesn't really matter if you believe you're a magenta canary called Billy the Kid. Believe that all you want.

But if you put that down in the census, and the association of Red-ish Canaries (RC for short) will declare that they need to be listened to and influence politics and social life because they speak on your behalf, I get a little edgy.

starlings

Three Seasons wrote: »

If contraception being wrong is a fundamental part of Catholicism then the pope isn't really a catholic. It's simple really.

The pope is infallible. Rock paper scissors.

Why do people expect logic from religion?

Shenshen

starlings wrote: »

The pope is infallible. Rock paper scissors.

Why do people expect logic from religion?

Only when he speaks ex cathedra.

Did he do that in that case? I'm generally curious, I honestly don't know.

--Kaiser--

OCorcrainn wrote: »

So by your reasoning above, Pope John XXII is not a Catholic because he supported contraception? Your logic is flawed.

The 14th century pope John XXII was in favour of contraception? That's news to me

Shenshen

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

The 14th century pope John XII was in favour of contraception? That's news to me

Psst... you missed an X there.
He was talking about John the XXII

--Kaiser--

Shenshen wrote: »

Psst... you missed an X there.
He was talking about John the XXII

I did miss an X, John XXII was a pope during the 14th century BC

Seachmall

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I just find it hilarious how prescriptive people are being here about other peoples faith!!

Pick and choose your beliefs all you want. Just don't take it personally when people refer to you as a Catholic of convenience.

OT,

• 20% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in the Resurrection.
• 78% of Catholics surveyed reject the Church's moral teachings in favour of their own.
• 18% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in heaven.
• 7% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in God.

- Irish Times

--Kaiser--

Seachmall wrote: »

[*]7% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in God.

Oh for ****s sake, these people should be removed from the gene pool

VinLieger

Seachmall wrote: »

Pick and choose your beliefs all you want. Just don't take it personally when people refer to you as a Catholic of convenience.

OT,

• 20% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in the Resurrection.
• 78% of Catholics surveyed reject the Church's moral teachings in favour of their own.
• 18% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in heaven.
• 7% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in God.

- Irish Times

Woah only 18% believe in evolution? Thats an incredibly worrying figure

krudler

Seachmall wrote: »

Pick and choose your beliefs all you want. Just don't take it personally when people refer to you as a Catholic of convenience.

OT,

• 20% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in the Resurrection.
• 78% of Catholics surveyed reject the Church's moral teachings in favour of their own.
• 18% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in heaven.
• 7% of Catholics surveyed don't believe in God.

- Irish Times

and that's why the "84% Catholic" figure is so infuriating, if you dont believe in the basics, you ain't a Catholic, cultural or not.

--Kaiser--

VinLieger wrote: »

Woah only 18% believe in evolution? Thats an incredibly worrying figure

Any wonder at the political system if this is the electorate?

awec

You can't pick and choose the bits to believe ffs. You are either catholic or not, to be catholic is to buy in to every aspect of the religion.

Grayson

Shenshen wrote: »

Only when he speaks ex cathedra.

Did he do that in that case? I'm generally curious, I honestly don't know.

He didn't. I's happened once in the last century and that was on the assumption of mary.

Three Seasons

I reckon Pope Francis will be the one to put up his hands and say "Sorry Folks, looks like we got this God thing all wrong, sorry about the inconvenience the last couple millennia, carry on"

starlings

awec wrote: »

You can't pick and choose the bits to believe ffs. You are either catholic or not, to be catholic is to buy in to every aspect of the religion.

It's a faith, not a software program.

Quandary

Three Seasons wrote: »

I reckon Pope Francis will be the one to put up his hands and say "Sorry Folks, looks like we got this God thing all wrong, sorry about the inconvenience the last couple millennia, carry on"

But keep going to mass to fill up our collection baskets...

NS77

Sugar Free wrote: »

I'd agree with most points but a christened child is a big factor in getting them into most primary schools. That itself is a joke but I understand parents going against their will for the sake of their child's education.

This is one of the biggest problems... this and ticking "catholic" on the census even though it's years since you've been to mass just prolongs the status quo and gives the Church unjust ammo to further their cause. There's nothing Irish about being Catholic.. look at the damage that the Church has done to many areas of Irish life... not to mention that it still promotes the sectarian segregation of children in our schools....time to move out of Stockholm Syndrome Ireland... stand on your own two feet and build a strong Republic!

--Kaiser--

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Bullshit. It's not a smorgasbord religion, if you don't follow Catholic dogma and it's rules then you are not a Catholic, end of story

What exactly gives you the right to make that assertion.

ScumLord

I think the problem with the Catholic church is is stuck in it's own dogma. It's caught between needing to change to maintain it's flock and being unable to change as that would diminish it's teachings, if you can change the word of god to suit the the current trends then what meaning does any of the bible hold?

That's why I agree with the point that you're either Catholic or you're not. If ignore any of the rules it diminishes the meaning of all the rules.

McTigs

krudler wrote: »

Catholicism does have rules to follow, why do so many Catholics know nothing about their own religion?

because if they told the true implications of being catholic they might try to leave

Seachmall

starlings wrote: »

It's a faith, not a software program.

But Catholicism is a specific religion with a specific ethos.

Transubstantiation, for example, is as fundamental to Catholicism as the Resurrection is. If you don't believe in it then you're not Catholic.

Simple as.

--Kaiser--

Devon High Radiator wrote: »

What exactly gives you the right to make that assertion.

Knowledge of the Catholic religion, something most so-called Catholics lack

Ghost Buster

Devon High Radiator wrote: »

What exactly gives you the right to make that assertion.

Having a brain. Catholicism has a number of prerequisites. If you do not meet these then you are simply a Christian.

Ghost Buster

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

That's not for you to decide. Religion is subjective, if I believe I'm a Catholic, then I'm a Catholic, regardless of what you happen to think about the matter. And regardless of what questions I may have about my faith.

Perhaps you are a scientologist duck

awec

starlings wrote: »

It's a faith, not a software program.

Yes, and the catholic faith has a set of beliefs and if you don't believe in ALL of those then you are not a real catholic.

There are no varying degrees of catholic, there is just catholic. You buy in to it all, or you don't.

I would wager that a large number of "catholics" in Ireland have beliefs closer to that of various protestant denominations.

krudler

NS77 wrote: »

This is one of the biggest problems... this and ticking "catholic" on the census even though it's years since you've been to mass just prolongs the status quo and gives the Church unjust ammo to further their cause. There's nothing Irish about being Catholic.. look at the damage that the Church has done to many areas of Irish life... not to mention that it still promotes the sectarian segregation of children in our schools....time to move out of Stockholm Syndrome Ireland... stand on your own two feet and build a strong Republic!

That's exactly it, the same people who whinge they can't go to the pub tomorrow will tick the census next time to keep mammy happy even though they don't believe or agree with the majority of their supposed own religion, it's absolutely baffling.

Ghost Buster

awec wrote: »

Yes, and the catholic faith has a set of beliefs and if you don't believe in ALL of those then you are not a real catholic.

There are no varying degrees of catholic, there is just catholic. You buy in to it all, or you don't.

I would wager that a large number of "catholics" in Ireland have beliefs closer to that of various protestant denominations.

I have posted this many many times but it is still the perfect example for me. A (Catholic...ish) work mate of mine stated that she does not believe in transubstantiation. I asked her did she consider converting to Protestantism so and she got extremely irate and insisted that it is Prods who believe in transubstantiation and not Catholics. I had to get onto Wikipedia to prove it to her. She still insists she is Catholic though!!!:rolleyes:

Gbear

An example of where this doesn't make any sense is a "Catholic" who's campaigning for gay rights. There must surely be a few.

By identifying as a catholic you're sabotaging your efforts to bring forward gay rights because you're giving tacit support to the church's position.

I just don't understand why people have this childish need to be a catholic. Think for yourself for ****s sake! If you're spiritually inclined or even if you believe in Jesus there's loads of other religions or even christian sects that would make more sense for you to become a part of.

It isn't about atheists wanting to claim everyone in our master plan to create an atheist state where religion is banned. It's about taking power away from an institution that a huge proportion of Irish people - far more than the 15% from the census - don't like and do the opposite of what they say.
I really don't see what the problem is. I don't understand why this would be so hard for people.

I think that if spiritual belief was actually the important factor as opposed to peer pressure and a fear of change, then it would be far easier for them to be true to their beliefs and follow a religion that meant something to them.

Red Pepper

Henlars67 wrote: »

If you don't believe in various elements of catholic teaching, then you really aren't a catholic.

In my experience most "Catholics" don't know what they believe in and they rarely stop to think about their beliefs. Many don't like being asked what they believe in because it forces them to think. Sheep in a flock, the way the Roman cult likes them.
That might be ok in the past because there were repercussions for renouncing your beliefs, sometimes serious repercussions. But now there is no excuse which makes these cultural Catholics appear pathetic and cowardly.

ejmaztec

They should start knocking out a few thousand Church of Ireland name plates, and start making those RC presbyteries suitable for families.

krudler

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I have posted this many many times but it is still the perfect example for me. A (Catholic...ish) work mate of mine stated that she does not believe in transubstantiation. I asked her did she consider converting to Protestantism so and she got extremely irate and insisted that it is Prods who believe in transubstantiation and not Catholics. I had to get onto Wikipedia to prove it to her. She still insists she is Catholic though!!!:rolleyes:

I had to explain what it was to someone once "oh but its just a ritual, it doesn't actually mean you're eating Jesus' body" ehhh..yes, yes it does, that's exactly what it is.

krudler

Red Pepper wrote: »

In my experience most "Catholics" don't know what they believe in and they rarely stop to think about their beliefs. Many don't like being asked what they believe in because it forces them to think. Sheep in a flock, the way the Roman cult likes them.
That might be ok in the past because there were repercussions for renouncing your beliefs, sometimes serious repercussions. But now there is no excuse which makes these cultural Catholics appear pathetic and cowardly.

"What would the neighbours think" is still alive and well. Years back an ex of mine's brother came out, and his parents were "shamed" by it in case anyone found out, them being good mass going people (reading the neighbours and gossiping about people on Sundays over the dinner in other words).

VinLieger

Gbear wrote: »

An example of where this doesn't make any sense is a "Catholic" who's campaigning for gay rights. There must surely be a few.

By identifying as a catholic you're sabotaging your efforts to bring forward gay rights because you're giving tacit support to the church's position.

I just don't understand why people have this childish need to be a catholic. Think for yourself for ****s sake! If you're spiritually inclined or even if you believe in Jesus there's loads of other religions or even christian sects that would make more sense for you to become a part of.

It isn't about atheists wanting to claim everyone in our master plan to create an atheist state where religion is banned. It's about taking power away from an institution that a huge proportion of Irish people - far more than the 15% from the census - don't like and do the opposite of what they say.
I really don't see what the problem is. I don't understand why this would be so hard for people.

I think that if spiritual belief was actually the important factor as opposed to peer pressure and a fear of change, then it would be far easier for them to be true to their beliefs and follow a religion that meant something to them.

This, exactly this!!! If its your beliefs you claim to hold so dearly there are plenty of different christian sects where your exact beliefs would line up, its this childish pride of being catholic that far too many irish people cant let go of.

starlings

Seachmall wrote: »

But Catholicism is a specific religion with a specific ethos.

Transubstantiation, for example, is as fundamental to Catholicism as the Resurrection is. If you don't believe in it then you're not Catholic.

Simple as.

awec wrote: »

Yes, and the catholic faith has a set of beliefs and if you don't believe in ALL of those then you are not a real catholic.

There are no varying degrees of catholic, there is just catholic. You buy in to it all, or you don't.

I would wager that a large number of "catholics" in Ireland have beliefs closer to that of various protestant denominations.

Where in the catechism does it say that?

I remember that part of Mass is standing up and reciting the Credo, but I also remember the letters and parables about the struggle with believing in god and the resurrection. I also remember trying to leave officially and being told that they would never close the door to me, regardless of my lack of faith. OK, maybe they were hoping to keep the numbers up, but if they were as binary as you suggest they would have kicked me out on my apostate arse.

mrsdewinter

krudler wrote: »

I had to explain what it was to someone once "oh but its just a ritual, it doesn't actually mean you're eating Jesus' body" ehhh..yes, yes it does, that's exactly what it is.

God almighty. We really are a nation of sheeple...

VinLieger

starlings wrote: »

Where in the catechism does it say that?

I remember that part of Mass is standing up and reciting the Credo, but I also remember the letters and parables about the struggle with believing in god and the resurrection. I also remember trying to leave officially and being told that they would never close the door to me, regardless of my lack of faith. OK, maybe they were hoping to keep the numbers up, but if they were as binary as you suggest they would have kicked me out on my apostate arse.

Nobody said the church is binary but the set of beliefs are. You either believe in it all or you arent a catholic, your something else entirely and there is most likely a form of christianity out there that would suit you way better as far as beliefs go but too many people are caught up in the idea of "being catholic"

--Kaiser--

mrsdewinter wrote: »

God almighty. We really are a nation of sheeple...

What do you mean by that? Transubstantiation is a tenet of the Catholic faith. This means the bread and wine is transformed into the blood and flesh of Jesus. If you don't believe in that then you are not a Catholic. krudler is not saying he is a Catholic, he just explained one of the beliefs of that religion.

Oh, and using the word 'sheeple' immediately marks you out as a looney bin, probably into conspiracy theories and ranting about 'elites'

awec

starlings wrote: »

but if they were as binary as you suggest they would have kicked me out on my apostate arse.

They aren't going to kick you out, they want your money. They aren't going to turn people away because they don't want to lose influence.