Ethnically Catholic...

starlings

VinLieger wrote: »

Nobody said the church is binary but the set of beliefs are. You either believe in it all or you arent a catholic, your something else entirely and there is most likely a form of christianity out there that would suit you way better as far as beliefs go but too many people are caught up in the idea of "being catholic"

But the church accepts that people have crises of faith - I haven't read anything in the catechism that suggests that your catholic switch is turned off when you have doubts.

I do not consider myself catholic, or even christian or theistic in any way, and that is why I won't judge an "a la carte" catholic on matters of faith - it's their faith, not mine, so they can be as gloriously inconsistent as they like and throw catholic down on the census if it makes them happy.

This kind of reminds me of giving out to vegetarians because they still own a leather belt - a system such as the church may have strict dogma, but people do not. Faith, as practised by humans, is not a matter of mind. Nor are hope, joy, desire -e.g. I don't know why I'm sexually attracted to some people whom I don't particularly like, I just am, so I don't expect my desires to be logical. Where's the joy in that?

Seachmall

starlings wrote: »

Where in the catechism does it say that?

I remember that part of Mass is standing up and reciting the Credo, but I also remember the letters and parables about the struggle with believing in god and the resurrection. I also remember trying to leave officially and being told that they would never close the door to me, regardless of my lack of faith. OK, maybe they were hoping to keep the numbers up, but if they were as binary as you suggest they would have kicked me out on my apostate arse.

Were not discussing how the RCC recognises you as a Catholic. That's would be futile because their criteria for whether or not you're a Catholic is simply whether or not you were Baptised.

The RCC hasn't allowed anyone to leave since 2011, as far as they're concerned once you're baptised you're Catholic until you die (and beyond!) regardless of what you believe.

But the church accepts that people have crises of faith - I haven't read anything in the catechism that suggests that your catholic switch is turned off when you have doubts.

We're not discussing doubts. We're discussing flat-out rejection of Catholic doctrine.

--Kaiser--

starlings wrote: »

Where in the catechism does it say that?

Section Two, Chapter One, Article Three.

Also

the Council of Trent declared subject to the ecclesiastical penalty of anathema anyone who:

"denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue" and anyone who "saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood - the species only of the bread and wine remaining - which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation, let him be anathema.

starlings

Seachmall wrote: »

Were not discussing how the RCC recognises you as a Catholic. That's would be futile because their criteria for whether or not you're a Catholic is simply whether or not you were Baptised.

The RCC hasn't allowed anyone to leave since 2011, as far as they're concerned once you're baptised you're Catholic until you die (and beyond!) regardless of what you believe.

We're not discussing doubts. We're discussing flat-out rejection of Catholic doctrine.

I see. I think we're differing to agree.

I still maintain that people who reject doctrine yet attend ceremonies for social or other reasons can call themselves whatever they like and it doesn't matter how inconsistent we think they are. I doubt they care tbh and you and I are hardly going to become pope and impose our in-or-out rationale on them.

Seachmall

starlings wrote: »

I see. I think we're differing to agree.

I still maintain that people who reject doctrine yet attend ceremonies for social or other reasons can call themselves whatever they like and it doesn't matter how inconsistent we think they are. I doubt they care tbh and you and I are hardly going to become pope and impose our in-or-out rationale on them.

I'm happy to agree to disagree on the overall point but for my own curiosity (and I won't follow up, this isn't like a trap where I attempt to drag the discussion out further) are we disagreeing on whether or not the Church's criteria for determining who is a Catholic is relevant?

starlings

Seachmall wrote: »

I'm happy to agree to disagree on the overall point but for my own curiosity (and I won't follow up, this isn't like a trap where I attempt to drag the discussion out further) are we disagreeing on whether or not the Church's criteria for determining who is a Catholic is relevant?

maybe!

I'm saying that if your only metric of catholicism is adherence to the articles of faith, which can neither be proven nor disproven as it is in the mind of the "catholic", then how can we ever determine who is or isn't a catholic?

ejmaztec

starlings wrote: »

maybe!

I'm saying that if your only metric of catholicism is adherence to the articles of faith, which can neither be proven nor disproven as it is in the mind of the "catholic", then how can we ever determine who is or isn't a catholic?

Perhaps you'd like them to wear a badge, would that put your mind at rest?

starlings

ejmaztec wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like them to wear a badge, would that put your mind at rest?

well they already have the Ash Wednesday forehead stamp. :P

My mind is quite at rest now. It got a bit exercised by the questions of subjectivity in census answers, who gets to say who is or isn't catholic, and then the old epistemology lark.

But now the sun is shining and I've made a cup of tea and remembered that I'm not a Catholic anyway.

ejmaztec

starlings wrote: »

well they already have the Ash Wednesday forehead stamp. :P

My mind is quite at rest now. It got a bit exercised by the questions of subjectivity in census answers, who gets to say who is or isn't catholic, and then the old epistemology lark.

But now the sun is shining and I've made a cup of tea and remembered that I'm not a Catholic anyway.

You can't always tell from that, it could be the remnants of some sh1t from a starling that happened to be flying overhead at the time.:pac:

OCorcrainn

It is quite ironic how certain atheists claim that they have no time for religion or Catholicism and it is waste of time, yet they waste most of their time talking about the exact same things. It is quite amusing to see. Most atheists do not care for religion (which is why they are atheists), but there are a lot, in particular on boards.ie who never shut up about it.

starlings

ejmaztec wrote: »

You can't always tell from that, it could be the remnants of some sh1t from a starling that happened to be flying overhead at the time.:pac:

that's holy sh1t to you, ejmaztec. 3 hail marys and a glory be.

McTigs

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is quite ironic how certain atheists claim that they have no time for religion or Catholicism and it is waste of time, yet they waste most of their time talking about the exact same things. It is quite amusing to see. Most atheists do not care for religion (which is why they are atheists), but there are a lot, in particular on boards.ie who never shut up about it.

it's hard not to end up talking about it when it's so ingrained in the society and politics of the country i live in and my children go to school in.

believe me, i'd dearly love to not have to think or talk about it but what can you do, it clearly can't be ****ing ignored.

VinLieger

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is quite ironic how certain atheists claim that they have no time for religion or Catholicism and it is waste of time, yet they waste most of their time talking about the exact same things. It is quite amusing to see. Most atheists do not care for religion (which is why they are atheists), but there are a lot, in particular on boards.ie who never shut up about it.

Probably because living in Ireland it has HUGE effect on our lives. Tomorrow Good Friday for instance alot of countries do have it as a national holiday but very few if any others still subscribe to the no alcohol thing but us. Then theres the school system, if you dont baptise your child you severely reduce the selection of schools on offer to you, and thats just 2 examples off the top of my head.
Kinda like how very religious people dislike everything about sex but they can never shut up about it

--Kaiser--

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is quite ironic how certain atheists claim that they have no time for religion or Catholicism and it is waste of time, yet they waste most of their time talking about the exact same things. It is quite amusing to see. Most atheists do not care for religion (which is why they are atheists), but there are a lot, in particular on boards.ie who never shut up about it.

There's quite a large proportion of this country who call themselves Catholic, while in reality they know next to nothing about the tenets specific to this religion, disagree with most of it's dogma and do not regularly attend mass, go to confession etc....I am merely trying to educate these ignorant folk in the hope that less people will identify themselves with the evil Catholic organisation and hopefully lessen it's influence in this nation and the world at large.

'There is no god and we are his prophets'

Ghost Buster

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is quite ironic how certain atheists claim that they have no time for religion or Catholicism and it is waste of time, yet they waste most of their time talking about the exact same things. It is quite amusing to see. Most atheists do not care for religion (which is why they are atheists), but there are a lot, in particular on boards.ie who never shut up about it.

Dont you mean on threads which are specifically about Catholicism?
Atheists and catholics rarely discuss this topic in the Sports section of boards.;)

But in a related matter can you think of one or two reasons why non religious people may have issues with religion and catholicism in particular here in Ireland.
I can.

krudler

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is quite ironic how certain atheists claim that they have no time for religion or Catholicism and it is waste of time, yet they waste most of their time talking about the exact same things. It is quite amusing to see. Most atheists do not care for religion (which is why they are atheists), but there are a lot, in particular on boards.ie who never shut up about it.

I'd love to ignore it, the church just won't let people. When religion is taken out of schools, women's rights for abortion are addressed properly in this country, I don't have to hear that any gay friends I have aren't equal to others and being called an evil on society, then I'll shut up about it.

rubadub

omega666 wrote: »

The census was a massive blow for the atheists of After Hours, it was hilarious.
All the prophecies of doom turned to be complete rubbish, the catholic church is finished in Ireland, no one goes to mass anymore, the census will reveal the huge drop in support for the catholic church etc.

Can you link to any of these threads & prophecies? seeing as your other allegation about an option on the census turned out to be made up.

ejmaztec wrote: »

Some of the atheists here seem to assume that if a person doesn't believe in Catholicism 100%, they've got to be atheists

I was under the impression the people banging on about others not being catholic were in fact devout catholics, now reading again it could be either way.

krudler wrote: »

Catholicism does have rules to follow, why do so many Catholics know nothing about their own religion?

Because they have little interest in it, so do not bother learning now, nor bothered learning as kids. They see the census know they were baptized, had communion & confirmed etc, so tick the box, I presume many think thats what it is asking. I expect many ticking they are Irish have little interest in the country, its history, the geography etc -they could despise the country and all in it -they were born here so tick the box. I think many just think along the same lines when ticking the religion box.

Pherekydes wrote: »

Amusingly, some people ticked "Other religion" and put atheist in the box, while a much greater number ticked "No religion", up something like 44% from 2006.

I think that's understandable, not amusing.

Question 12 – What is your religion?

Religion is an important demographic variable and will be analysed closely along with other demographic variables in the context of diversity including nationality, ethnicity, and foreign languages. The religions listed have been chosen to cover the most frequent responses given in the 2006 census. This question does not refer to frequency of attendance at church. People should respond to this question according to how they feel now about their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

They might simply have wanted atheist to specifically appear on the form in future. Others rightly said the lack of atheist & agnostic on the form might coerce people into picking another box more.

also look at the actual form.
http://www.census.ie/The-Census-Form/Each-question-in-detail.109.1.aspx
"no religion" is hidden down below the fill in box. You would think they would list them in order of popularity from previous years.

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Bullshit. It's not a smorgasbord religion, if you don't follow Catholic dogma and it's rules then you are not a Catholic, end of story

reading the last sentence in the census guideline it seems those ticking the box certainly can consider it a smorgasbord.

ejmaztec

rubadub wrote: »

I was under the impression the people banging on about others not being catholic were in fact devout catholics, now reading again it could be either way.

I don't recall seeing any catholics banging about others not being catholic, devout or otherwise, especially in After Hours.

ScumLord

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is quite ironic how certain atheists claim that they have no time for religion or Catholicism and it is waste of time, yet they waste most of their time talking about the exact same things.

We're trying to save your mortal soul. I always thought it was a religious thing but it turns out to just be a human thing. We don't like to see others losing out and get taken advantage of.

rubadub

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't recall seeing any catholics banging about others not being catholic, devout or otherwise, especially in After Hours.

+1, that's what I was getting at, I don't see people stating their beliefs at all. I had just figured they were catholics, you seem to figure they were atheists, and now I can see they could be either, and I cannot make out what they are.

I was wrong to presume they were catholics, and will not presume they are atheists either now. Maybe I have vegans & vegetarians in my mind, who do get upset at, e.g., people who eat fish declaring themselves vegetarians. It made more sense to me for catholics to want people excluded from labelling themselves as catholics when they are not (by their definition). I would have thought atheists would not really care if they call themselves that, like meateaters might not care much if guinness drinkers called themselves vegan.

Galwayguy35

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

There's quite a large proportion of this country who call themselves Catholic, while in reality they know next to nothing about the tenets specific to this religion, disagree with most of it's dogma and do not regularly attend mass, go to confession etc....I am merely trying to educate these ignorant folk in the hope that less people will identify themselves with the evil Catholic organisation and hopefully lessen it's influence in this nation and the world at large.

'There is no god and we are his prophets'

And what gives you the right to call people ignorant?

Do you call them ignorant to their faces or just sound off on forums like this?

ScumLord

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

And what gives you the right to call people ignorant?

Do you call them ignorant to their faces or just sound off on forums like this?

Ignorant is a descriptive word it's not an insult. If you don't know about something your ignorant about that thing.

krudler

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

And what gives you the right to call people ignorant?

Do you call them ignorant to their faces or just sound off on forums like this?

If he means ignorant to their own religion then he'd be correct.

bb1234567

donvito99 wrote: »

As Dara O'Briain would say, "I'm an atheist...but still a Catholic."



This applies to most of us on this rock in the Atlantic.

Quite a sweeping statement dont you think? Most people in Ireland still believe in God no matter how much you or any other atheists on boards dislike religion :pac:

omega666

Should atheists be forced to work on religious holidays?
I mean i've never heard an atheist complain about having no work on good friday or easter monday? Complain when they are getting drunk on Paddy's day? Or stuffing their face on Christmas day?

Surely if they were dedicated to the cause they would be out protesting
and boycotting these holidays, demanding the Government cancel them as it's clearly wreaking thier lives.

Knasher

omega666 wrote: »

Should atheists be forced to work on religious holidays?
I mean i've never heard an atheist complain about having no work on good friday or easter monday? Complain when they are getting drunk on Paddy's day? Or stuffing their face on Christmas day?

Surely if they were dedicated to the cause they would be out protesting
and boycotting these holidays, demanding the Government cancel them as it's clearly wreaking thier lives.

I'd prefer it. My friends work in offices that don't close for any of those holidays. In compensation their employer is required to give them the extra days back. I'd much rather be able to take the holiday whenever I want, rather than be required to take it on religious holidays.

krudler

omega666 wrote: »

Should atheists be forced to work on religious holidays?
I mean i've never heard an atheist complain about having no work on good friday or easter monday? Complain when they are getting drunk on Paddy's day? Or stuffing their face on Christmas day?

Surely if they were dedicated to the cause they would be out protesting
and boycotting these holidays, demanding the Government cancel them as it's clearly wreaking thier lives.

I'm working tomorrow and Monday, worked on many a Christmas day as well. The feast of dec 25th was around long before christianity adopted it, for most people its just about food, drink and family, nothing more. Paddys Day is just an excuse for everyone to get drunk and celebrate being Irish for a day.

As far as complaining about atheists arguments go that's pretty piss poor tbh.

ScumLord

omega666 wrote: »

Should atheists be forced to work on religious holidays?
I mean i've never heard an atheist complain about having no work on good friday or easter monday? Complain when they are getting drunk on Paddy's day? Or stuffing their face on Christmas day?

Surely if they were dedicated to the cause they would be out protesting
and boycotting these holidays, demanding the Government cancel them as it's clearly wreaking thier lives.

Technically if that's going to happen we should get a load of our own holidays. And then we could stop Muslims taking Christmas off so that they could work while everyone else is at home. At the end of the day these are all consumer holiday payoffs. We buy loads of crap and we get a day off in return. That's how Christmas and paddies days work.

Also, I will be working tomorrow. The Christians can sit in mass preying to their god for help, I'll be busy doing stuff that makes my life better.

LordSutch

tolosenc wrote: »

I'd say a fair number of people tick Catholic because not doing so would make them a "Brit" or somehow less Irish and thus challenge their identity.

This is just so wrong & so ill informed on so many levels )

Nodin

omega666 wrote: »

Should atheists be forced to work on religious holidays?
I mean i've never heard an atheist complain about having no work on good friday or easter monday? Complain when they are getting drunk on Paddy's day? Or stuffing their face on Christmas day?

Surely if they were dedicated to the cause they would be out protesting
and boycotting these holidays, demanding the Government cancel them as it's clearly wreaking thier lives.

There's more holes in that than argument....

starlings

krudler wrote: »

I'd love to ignore it, the church just won't let people. When religion is taken out of schools, women's rights for abortion are addressed properly in this country, I don't have to hear that any gay friends I have aren't equal to others and being called an evil on society, then I'll shut up about it.

to get to your promised land, it might be more effective to promote non-denominational education and speak honestly and rationally to children; support groups who distribute abortion information and funds to women travelling abroad for abortion; campaign for marriage equality and let your conservative peers know how much you treasure your gay friends.

As far as I can see, the church is just a Wizard of Oz at this stage so being kindly and demonstratively persuasive to its (nominal or devout) followers would change their attitudes a lot quicker than a rant about things they don't, or won't, question. Maybe you already do all this, I don't know, but I don't like to hear atheists preach any more than I like to listen to a sermon from a pulpit.

omega666

Just as i thought, there seems to be a load of a la carte atheists around also.
Ignore the fact the only reason your getting those holidays is because of religion. For those working tomorrow enjoy the overtime and spare a though for the reason your getting it.

LordSutch

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't recall seeing any catholics banging about others not being catholic, devout or otherwise, especially in After Hours.

Please see post#101, page#7

Nodin

omega666 wrote: »

Just as i thought, there seems to be a load of a la carte atheists around also.
Ignore the fact the only reason your getting those holidays is because of religion. For those working tomorrow enjoy the overtime and spare a though for the reason your getting it.

....there's a point in there trying to get out, but I can't see it clearly yet....

ScumLord

omega666 wrote: »

Just as i thought, there seems to be a load of a la carte atheists around also.

Why do you say that? It's not surprising atheists end up at the same point of view when we're using logic to get there.

For those working tomorrow enjoy the overtime and spare a though for the reason your getting it.

Overtime? Chance would be a fine thing.

gcgirl

omega666 wrote: »

Should atheists be forced to work on religious holidays?
I mean i've never heard an atheist complain about having no work on good friday or easter monday? Complain when they are getting drunk on Paddy's day? Or stuffing their face on Christmas day?

Surely if they were dedicated to the cause they would be out protesting
and boycotting these holidays, demanding the Government cancel them as it's clearly wreaking thier lives.

Let operate a church tax, if you pay your church tax you have you holy days off if you don't you don't have them off, but in fairness i see very few willing to pay a church tax

Seachmall

starlings wrote: »

Maybe you already do all this, I don't know, but I don't like to hear atheists preach any more than I like to listen to a sermon from a pulpit.

In fairness I've never seen an atheist pulpit-preach. The only times I hear about atheists forcing there views on others is on AH, which is a discussion forum known for it's repetitive and drawn out threads after all.

Right now there are multiple repetitive, drawn out discussions on whether or not to scrap the Irish Language Commissioner, on whether the US are gonna kick off with North Korea, on whether or not Pistorious is guilty and whether or not the Gardai were in the right to walk out. Welcome to AH.

Preaching atheists are like the PC Brigrade, they exist only in the mind of Boardsies.

omega666

gcgirl wrote: »

Let operate a church tax, if you pay your church tax you have you holy days off if you don't you don't have them off, but in fairness i see very few willing to pay a church tax

We already have a church tax. It's collected in a basket every Sunday. The atheists don't even have pay it and still get the holidays. Win win for them

Nodin

omega666 wrote: »

We already have a church tax. It's collected in a basket every Sunday. The atheists don't even have pay it and still get the holidays. Win win for them

Thats a collection, not a tax. A tax is not a voluntary matter.

ScumLord

omega666 wrote: »

We already have a church tax. It's collected in a basket every Sunday. The atheists don't even have pay it and still get the holidays. Win win for them

So do the Muslims and Jews. They're national holidays on top of being religious ones. You're looking for a segregated society, it's unworkable.

Ghost Buster

omega666 wrote: »

Just as i thought, there seems to be a load of a la carte atheists around also.
Ignore the fact the only reason your getting those holidays is because of religion. For those working tomorrow enjoy the overtime and spare a though for the reason your getting it.

Do you hide in a hole on Thursday or do you follow Norse religious beliefs?

omega666

Nodin wrote: »

Thats a collection, not a tax. A tax is not a voluntary matter.

Same thing. In fact a tax reaches a wider audience so could be a cash cow for the church. Not a bad idea.

krudler

omega666 wrote: »

We already have a church tax. It's collected in a basket every Sunday. The atheists don't even have pay it and still get the holidays. Win win for them

That's not a tax in fairness.

Just as i thought, there seems to be a load of a la carte atheists around also.
Ignore the fact the only reason your getting those holidays is because of religion. For those working tomorrow enjoy the overtime and spare a though for the reason your getting it.

What on earth is an a la carte atheist? the only thing that would make an atheist not an atheist is believing in a god.

Nodin

omega666 wrote: »

Same thing. In fact a tax reaches a wider audience so could be a cash cow for the church. Not a bad idea.

Other than "waah, I don't like the atheists" its a bit hard to work out what your general point is.

ejmaztec

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't know much about this but aren't Catholics only compelled to go to church once or twice a year, and it's up to them whether they want to attend for the rest of the year?

You're in a state of something-sin if you miss a weekly mass.

What you're thinking of is the a la carte catholics who go at xmas and think shur it's grand :rolleyes:

krudler

omega666 wrote: »

Same thing. In fact a tax reaches a wider audience so could be a cash cow for the church. Not a bad idea.

yeah that's what the church needs, more money to not pay tax on.

twinQuins

omega666 wrote: »

Just as i thought, there seems to be a load of a la carte atheists around also.

Considering atheism is merely 'a lack of belief in any god or gods'... I really don't understand your point. As long as these people still don't hold any belief in any god there's nothing a la carte about it.

Did you mean secularism? Because the two are different things.

COYW

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I'd add church weddings and Christenings to that list too. A couple we know never go to Mass. But they wanted (and had) a church wedding at a pretty little church 'because it was the thing to do. Plenty of others on that list too.

To each his own, I guess even though I think it's hypocritical.

I have a load of friends who fall into this category. I get told it's tradition. One of my friends had to get his uncle, the priest, drunk to get him to agree to marry him and his wife. Baffles me why people do things like this.

krudler wrote: »

What on earth is an a la carte atheist? the only thing that would make an atheist not an atheist is believing in a god.

I'm guessing he is talking about people who consider themselves atheist but go to church for their wedding etc.

starlings

Seachmall wrote: »

In fairness I've never seen an atheist pulpit-preach. The only times I hear about atheists forcing there views on others is on AH, which is a discussion forum known for it's repetitive and drawn out threads after all.

Right now there are multiple repetitive, drawn out discussions on whether or not to scrap the Irish Language Commissioner, on whether the US are gonna kick off with North Korea, on whether or not Pistorious is guilty and whether or not the Gardai were in the right to walk out. Welcome to AH.

Preaching atheists are like the PC Brigrade, they exist only in the mind of Boardsies.

I do think there are preaching atheists, but that may well be my reception rather than the signal. When I listen to or read Dawkins, preaching is what comes to mind. While I tend to agree with a lot of what he says, he says it in such a hectoring, antagonistic, tone that I think of him as every bit as sanctimonious as his opponents.

I fully share krudler's wishes for full separation of church and state, non-religious education, abortion rights and gay marriage rights and a tolerant society. I'm sure if I met krudler I'd like him very much. It's simply a question of tactics: I prefer persuasion and practical proof to polemic.

I would say the actual practising Catholic adults is < 5%