The LC Debating Thread Motion #1: Irish should be made optional for the Leaving Cert

aimzLc2

MickFleetwood wrote: »

aimzLc2 wrote: »

Perhaps if we spent time actually learning how to effectively speak the language (I know I don't in my class) it would lead to more capability of actually speaking the dialect.

thats why they made the oral 40 percent of the course , still didn't change anyones attitudes..

Layzerman

aimzLc2 wrote: »

Indiego wrote: »

firstly, many students leaving second level education may not have a second language, let alone a third, which is a trait sought after by many multinational corporations when seeking employees, many colleges when matriculsting students, and in general is the cornerstone of a well rounded education. - no multinational company will look for irish/appreciate it because ireland is the only place in the world that speaks irish and only a tiny minority in ireland anyway , they look for another language because it will actually be used to communicate with other countries.

why it is that English and Maths can remain compulsory, while Irish gets thrown to the wayside. These subjects are compulsory for a reason, to ensure we have an education that covers a wide variety of subjects.
- why not make business compulsory then? or science to get a wide variety , irish is suited to those you are good at languages , giving a minority of people an advantage


I do however strongly believe changes ARE needed. The teachers needs to focus their priorities firstly on fluency, and mastering the language, rather than rote learning and learning sleep enducing poetry notes and prose analysis! -
thats why they tried to introduce the picture questions and giving the oral more weighting , that did not work , i don't believe changes are going to work

rekindled the love for our own language again - young people will not suddenly have a change of mind, if it is greatly disliked by such a number of people what makes you think we can suddenly change that , do you not think if we made it a choice only those who like the subject will do it -this would bring love for the language back

1. Yes but how many people do you know that come out of secondary school fluent in French/German/Spanish? Not being fluent is of no use to MNCs either.

2. As it was already pointed out the three core subjects are core for a reason.

3. I think we're all in agreement that the course could do with some changes, but sure that's the same with a lot of subjects.

4. You don't have to love a subject to do it. I'm not particularly fond of English, I still have to do it? It's coming back to the fact that just because people don't want to do it, doesn't mean they shouldn't have to.

MickFleetwood

A perfect example of how Irish is considered useless because people's attitude towards it.

I agree. Rote learning, when it comes to learning the language, should be scrapped. It needs a new system because in many cases you don't actually learn the language, you're just learning how to pass the exam. Not really a broad or focused education.

It comes down to the fact that people think it should be optional based on their opinions of it, not if it should be optional when put into context with receiving a broad second level education.

Public opinion tends to change things. It's not really a broad education because we spend time simply learning how to pass the Leaving Certificate exam, not how to actually speak/use it.
Just my opinion.

And I personally have no intentions of taking Irish in college, I'm a sciencey person Again it's all about people don't want to study it. Why should they be given a choice just because they don't want to?

I don't really understand your line of thinking, here. It's best if we agree to disagree because I think if the general public wants something to change, it should change.

Peregrine

MickFleetwood wrote: »

aimzLc2 wrote: »

I'm saying rote learning is the heart of the problem for learning Irish. You're not really coming to grips with a language by just poring over sentences and learning them off, are you?

Perhaps if we spent time actually learning how to effectively speak the language (I know I don't in my class) it would lead to more capability of actually speaking the dialect.

aimzLc2 wrote: »

MickFleetwood wrote: »

thats why they made the oral 40 percent of the course , still didn't change anyones attitudes..

Wtf happened to quoting..it's all messed up :eek:

little sis...

aimzLc2 wrote: »

thats why they made the oral 40 percent of the course , still didn't change anyones attitudes..

Yeh with 20+ sraith pictiur to learn sentences off for! Still wrote learning EVEN FOR THE ORAL

MickFleetwood

aimzLc2 wrote: »

MickFleetwood wrote: »

thats why they made the oral 40 percent of the course , still didn't change anyones attitudes..

The oral? The oral is basically more rote learning. In my class, for the orals, we're given sheets of paper (you know? The Sraith Pictiur?) and learn off the sentences.

When it comes to being asked questions, again, more rote learning. You can actually influence the examiner to get them to ask you the questions you have rote-learned answers to.

Indiego

no multinational company will look for irish/appreciate it because ireland is the only place in the world that speaks irish and only a tiny minority in ireland anyway , they look for another language because it will actually be used to communicate with other countries. - yes, I will accept that bringing job opportunities into this was a slip of the tounge, or finger in this case? I'm afraid I'll have to admit that was a stupid argument and I'm going to have to put that down to the fact that I'm half asleep and have the flu yeah, excuses I know :L

why not make business compulsory then? or science to get a wide variety , irish is suited to those you are good at languages , giving a minority of people an advantage - Yes, by all means make business compulsory! or science! That would be great, but unfortunately isnt the crux of this discussion. Only a small minority are good at maths, same goes for English. That mentality applies to all subjects, having subjects compulsory levels the proverbial playing field in a way, it makes sure people don't take advantage of the points system and only choose subjects in one field alone, which in my opinion completely misses the point of having a general education in the first place.

Thats why they tried to introduce the picture questions and giving the oral more weighting , that did not work , i don't believe changes are going to work - the picture series most certainly are not conducive to erradicating rote learning, and in my opinion, the oral receiving more weighting will in the long run make a difference, but only to results.
The problem is theyre changing the method of assessment, even at that only partially, but they are ignoring the blatantly obvious problem - the actual teaching of the subject.

young people will not suddenly have a change of mind, if it is greatly disliked by such a number of people what makes you think we can suddenly change that , do you not think if we made it a choice only those who like the subject will do it -this would bring love for the language back
- no, im not expecting overnight miracles, the current generations have already formed their opinions - I'm thinking longer term. if a love of Irish, and enthusiasm for it, is fostered in people, this has the potential to redeem Irish.

Prodigious

Here are my opinions:

- As the fundamental point of a language is to act as a form of communication, Gaeilge, as well as several other languages, are becoming more and more pointless, as regrettably, English becomes the world language.

- If Gaeilge should be made optional, so should English. Currently, English is taught in the form of literature. This is pointless to the majority of people. Literature does not enable us with a superior means of communication.

- Gaeilge is taught terribly. Students who go to the Gaeltacht tend to love the language and appreciate its beauty. If this could be brought to the classroom a revival of the language would most certainly be possible.

- The language is not dead. Therefore, in my opinion, every effort should be made to revitalise and strengthen it.

in conclusion, I OPPOSE the motion.

Indiego

Prodigious wrote: »

- Gaeilge is taught terribly. Students who go to the Gaeltacht tend to love the language and appreciate its beauty. If this could be brought to the classroom a revival of the language would most certainly be possible.

- The language is not dead. Therefore, in my opinion, every effort should be made to revitalise and strengthen it.

Exactly this!
It's all down to the stigma surrounding Irish, if we were shown it as a new subject called, oh I don't know, Celtic languages or something, and it was thought by enthusiastic teachers who had a genuine love for it, and the language was taught similarly to other languages in school, at the same level as them, and noone had any preconceived negativity about it, I have no doubts it woud thrive.

anirishlad

Indiego wrote: »

Exactly this!
It's all down to the stigma surrounding Irish, if we were shown it as a new subject called, oh I don't know, Celtic languages or something, and it was thought by enthusiastic teachers who had a genuine love for it, and the language was taught similarly to other languages in school, at the same level as them, and noone had any preconceived negativity about it, I have no doubts it woud thrive.

It would be put down as useless and never make it onto the syllabus It would be the equivalent of doing russian for the leaving :pac:

Jackobyte

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

_____________________________________________________

First motion
The motion for our first debate will be:

Irish should be made optional for the Leaving Cert.

_____________________________________________________

The support for the Irish language is based off the idea of patriotism and nationalism, which is an irrational care for an arbitrary occurrence in which you made no choice nor had no decision. You happened to be born into Ireland, and just as easily could have been born in France, Madagascar, Kiribati, Japan. The fact of the matter is, this zealous over-concern for protecting our "proud heritage", and continuing it into the future, when you played no part in it, is illogical. Why should any of us care about the maintaining a bygone language because it is a so-called "part of our heritage", or care about the fact we are Irish at all, when we had no choice in becoming part of the continuation of Irish history? The persistent support for Irish is based off the fallacy that is patriotism, and therefore it should be shunned as a language, from society as a whole, which includes the Leaving Cert. I propose we all just use Esperanto all the time instead. :pac: Propose the motion!

*The above is not representative of Jackobyte's actual beliefs. I am in fact an advocate for the Irish language, but believe the LC needs serious reform to encourage fluency in the language and quell the rote-learning system currently in place However, all the obvious avenues of argument had already been exhausted, so I said I'd try a different approach. A key skill in debate is the ability to argue against your own beliefs.

Also, irrelevant, but a debating video I happen to like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJedoT3ufCI

anirishlad

Prodigious wrote: »

Here are my opinions:

- As the fundamental point of a language is to act as a form of communication, Gaeilge, as well as several other languages, are becoming more and more pointless, as regrettably, English becomes the world language.

- If Gaeilge should be made optional, so should English. Currently, English is taught in the form of literature. This is pointless to the majority of people. Literature does not enable us with a superior means of communication.

- Gaeilge is taught terribly. Students who go to the Gaeltacht tend to love the language and appreciate its beauty. If this could be brought to the classroom a revival of the language would most certainly be possible.

- The language is not dead. Therefore, in my opinion, every effort should be made to revitalise and strengthen it.

in conclusion, I OPPOSE the motion.

• Literature does improve spoken and written English as it exposes student to different forms of writing and improves their range of vocabulary
  
• People who go to the Gaeltacht already have a predisposition towards liking Irish as there willing to fork out a grand for basically 3 weeks of craic. Going to a Gaeltacht can't be compared to a classroom environment because unfortunately schools do not have the resources to pay for students to go surfing and then come back in a great mood for some oral Irish
  
• The language is being kept alive by native speakers, it is actually being negatively impacted by being compulsory for the leaving cert as more people will take a dislike to the language

Peregrine

Jackobyte wrote: »

The support for the Irish language is based off the idea of patriotism and nationalism, which is an irrational care for an arbitrary occurrence in which you made no choice nor had no decision. You happened to be born into Ireland, and just as easily could have been born in France, Madagascar, Kiribati, Japan. The fact of the matter is, this zealous over-concern for protecting our "proud heritage", and continuing it into the future, when you played no part in it, is illogical. Why should any of us care about the maintaining a bygone language because it is a so-called "part of our heritage", or care about the fact we are Irish at all, when we had no choice in becoming part of the continuation of Irish history? The persistent support for Irish is based off the fallacy that is patriotism, and therefore it should be shunned as a language, from society as a whole, which includes the Leaving Cert. I propose we all just use Esperanto all the time instead. :pac: Propose the motion!

*The above is not representative of Jackobyte's actual beliefs. I am in fact an advocate for the Irish language, but believe the LC needs serious reform to encourage fluency in the language and quell the rote-learning system currently in place However, all the obvious avenues of argument had already been exhausted, so I said I'd try a different approach. A key skill in debate is the ability to argue against your own beliefs

I actually believed you for the first half of it..
You had definitely lost me at Esperanto :pac:

thegreatescape

The problem I have with Irish is the fact that after learning it since you enter primary school until you leave secondary school, unless you're going to become an Irish teacher, go into a job that demands it as a part of it, or living in a Gaeltacht area, it has no use. Sure it's nice to have and be able to speak it, but for someone like me who I know will never speak it again once I'm finished 6th year, I think it's pointless.

For example, I want to pursue a career in Science and Germany is the number one country in the world for it. If I was learning German since I entered primary school until I finished secondary school, I would have no problem going to Germany to study a science degree which would have unlocked so many doors for me later in life.

Whereas I'm being forced to learn a subject I know for a fact I will never speak a word of again once I leave. I just find that situation very annoying.

In conclusion, I'm in favour of the motion.

cfc.forever

I do think Irish should be an optional subject for the Leaving Cert due to the fact, only a small majority of people in Ireland speak Irish and only a certain amount of positions for the future require it which is becoming a teacher or gardai. I think Irish should be optional and people should choose which language they wish to learn English or Irish. Irish has caused problems for people who are dyslexic and who cannot do irish for various reasons which puts on a heavy workload for educational psychologists.

I think Irish should be the same as "French" and be optional, alongside German. If people had the option of Irish and may find it difficult may be able to do better in other subjects. Students who find Irish difficult might feel a great strain the oral exam has on them.

In the majority of irish homes Irish is not spoke fluently and students are expected to do an exam paper in Irish. For some people it may be a natural talent, for some languages mighten't be for them. We all have to do subjects we don't like but do you guys really think students should be forced to study hours each day for a subject they mighten't ever use again.

I think it would be very benefical if Irish was optional as people who wished to pursue a career that needed Irish could do it. This would also be very benefical for teachers teaching in other subjects for people who are exempt from doing Irish will no longer needed to be accounted for as there will be other students who choose not to do Irish.

I'm currently doing my Junior Cert this year and the thoughts of doing Irish for my Leaving Cert are thankfully out of my head, I was getting stressed, I done Irish up until second year but finally got exempt. I had to get a psychological report. This is not fair and no person should go through pain and suffering from the leaving cert, I wish the government made this optional.

Layzerman

cfc.forever wrote: »

I do think Irish should be an optional subject for the Leaving Cert due to the fact, only a small majority of people in Ireland speak Irish and only a certain amount of positions for the future require it which is becoming a teacher or gardai. I think Irish should be optional and people should choose which language they wish to learn English or Irish. Irish has caused problems for people who are dyslexic and who cannot do irish for various reasons which puts on a heavy workload for educational psychologists.

Teachers and gardaí aren't necessarily a small group of people though are they? English definitely shouldn't be made optional, you may disagree with the way it's taught but how else would you learn to write a speech, argue and develop points or just vocab in general?

How is it a workload for educational psychologists? It's their job..

I think Irish should be the same as "French" and be optional, alongside German. If people had the option of Irish and may find it difficult may be able to do better in other subjects. Students who find Irish difficult might feel a great strain the oral exam has on them.

There's an oral in all languages for the LC... Just because someone finds it difficult doesn't mean they shouldn't have to do it like what ever happened to hard work?

In the majority of irish homes Irish is not spoke fluently and students are expected to do an exam paper in Irish. For some people it may be a natural talent, for some languages mighten't be for them. We all have to do subjects we don't like but do you guys really think students should be forced to study hours each day for a subject they mighten't ever use again.

Again, how many other subjects do we study that we'll never use again? Personally, I don't think I'll need at least 3 of the subjects I'm studying now ever again. College is there for a more focused education, secondary school is there to give you a broad education in as many areas as possible.

I think it would be very benefical if Irish was optional as people who wished to pursue a career that needed Irish could do it. This would also be very benefical for teachers teaching in other subjects for people who are exempt from doing Irish will no longer needed to be accounted for as there will be other students who choose not to do Irish.

If you were to think of how many people that'd drop Irish if they could, it'd add up to a fairly substantial amount. Now think of all the Irish teachers out there that'd lose their jobs because of the lack of students picking it for the LC.

I don't even know what you mean by the last bit :pac:

I'm currently doing my Junior Cert this year and the thoughts of doing Irish for my Leaving Cert are thankfully out of my head, I was getting stressed, I done Irish up until second year but finally got exempt. I had to get a psychological report. This is not fair and no person should go through pain and suffering from the leaving cert, I wish the government made this optional.

Hahahaha 'pain and suffering'. It's a language not the Holocaust lads!

aimzLc2

Layzerman wrote: »

Teachers and gardaí aren't necessarily a small group of people though are they? English definitely shouldn't be made optional, you may disagree with the way it's taught but how else would you learn to write a speech, argue and develop points or just vocab in general?

I agree with you there that english should not be optional because it is actually used unlike irish!


There's an oral in all languages for the LC... Just because someone finds it difficult doesn't mean they shouldn't have to do it like what ever happened to hard work?

-but why are you trying to make it hard for anyone when you could make it easier for many who are not good at languages? It is easier work for those who languages come naturally too thus giving them an edge



Again, how many other subjects do we study that we'll never use again? Personally, I don't think I'll need at least 3 of the subjects I'm studying now ever again. College is there for a more focused education, secondary school is there to give you a broad education in as many areas as possible.

-wow really because i picked all my subjects because i will probably use all of them again , i just know i won't ever use irish again. why not focus on subject now that you have an interest in and give you a head start for college? having irish as a compulsory subject does not make your education anymore broad



If you were to think of how many people that'd drop Irish if they could, it'd add up to a fairly substantial amount. Now think of all the Irish teachers out there that'd lose their jobs because of the lack of students picking it for the LC.

- fair point!

Layzerman

There's an oral in all languages for the LC... Just because someone finds it difficult doesn't mean they shouldn't have to do it like what ever happened to hard work?

-but why are you trying to make it hard for anyone when you could make it easier for many who are not good at languages? It is easier work for those who languages come naturally too thus giving them an edge

What about the mathematically gifted? Those that are good at English? There's more people better at languages than Maths in my opinion. It's not giving anyone an edge. I'm saying if everyone did Irish, English and Maths it makes the Leaving Cert. fairer as a whole?

Again, how many other subjects do we study that we'll never use again? Personally, I don't think I'll need at least 3 of the subjects I'm studying now ever again. College is there for a more focused education, secondary school is there to give you a broad education in as many areas as possible.

-wow really because i picked all my subjects because i will probably use all of them again , i just know i won't ever use irish again. why not focus on subject now that you have an interest in and give you a head start for college? having irish as a compulsory subject does not make your education anymore broad

Why get a head start though? It's like saying 'Let's start the LC Biology course in 3rd year' or something like that. There's no need to get ahead of yourself.

Focus on your preferred subject then, Irish isn't stopping me from focusing on my sciences.

Yes it does? If we didn't do Irish we obviously wouldn't have a knowledge of it, sounds like a less-broad education to me

Acciaccatura

With the likes of Gaelscoileanna and Gaeltacht summer courses, the amount of fluent (and willing) Irish speakers is increasing, and a more positive outlook on it is growing. I know at least 3 people living outside the Gaeltacht area ( in Louth, Clare and Dublin) who speak Irish at home with their families, and I've come across so many more people of all ages just casually conversing in Irish in public, on the train, in cafés, anywhere really. And let's not forget people from Gaeltacht areas whose first language would be Irish, and learned English from the media. To say that Irish is hardly spoken outside the classroom is definitely not true. Also, English and Irish are our official languages, to make English mandatory and Irish optional is a complete lack of patriotism and makes no sense. I understand some exemptions from Irish because of dyslexia etc. are necessary, but I really don't think it should be optional. The way it's taught, now, that's a different story for another thread :P

Peregrine

Poll added, please read all the options carefully.

If you're not a student, please don't vote.

ray2012

I think firstly a major reform of the Irish subject for leaving cert is needed. I find it ridiculous that we must study poetry, for example. More emphasis should be put on actually speaking the language and on topics that are actually in our lives. You'd find some HL students in 6th year who can go on and on about the poetic techniques used in a certain poem, but can't even describe the area where they live. What's the point in that? I believe that if you took the poetry (which takes up a long time to do) off the course, more time could be spent on doing topics that actually matter.

And yes, I believe it should be made optional for leaving cert. Why force students to do a subject they have no interest in (similarly to Maths, English or whatever). If they have no interest in the language, I'm sure they won't go on to study it after secondary school, making them learning it quite useless. I realise that maths and parts of English for example are the same, but that's for a different thread. Obviously forcing students to study something they don't like or enjoy is going to bring the standard down. Having people in a class who are not willing to put in any effort to study the language, is obviously going to slow down the learning in the class, thus bringing the level down. I'm sure if it was made optional many people, who would actually be interested in the language, would study it. If some people don't want to study it, that should be fine. It shouldn't be forced on people to ''keep the language alive''.

Peregrine

Vito Corleone wrote: »

The following options need to be added:

Major reform is needed and it should be made optional to all after Primary School
No reform but made optional to all after Primary School.

I thought about that but the debate was about leaving Cert so I left it out.

Besides, I don't think we're there yet. Polls from newspapers like Times and The Journal all show people(mostly adults) being favoured to leaving the subject as it is, remaining mandatory throughout second level. But then you could ask, well what do they know about what students want? And I agree but I don't think it will ever come to a day where a decision on matters like this will rest on students unfortunately.

If it was made optional throughout second level now, there could be mutiny :P

HugsiePie

Quick point, if someone has 0 interest in a subject and never uses it, why should they be FORCED to learn it just because its considered to be part of our heritage, so is Irish dancing, I don't see that on the curriculum anywhere. Secondly, a little side point, I am in a HL Irish class, 3 out of 26 of us have never done the traditional Gaeltacht experience. In the OL classes that percentage is much higher, and in the case of my class those who do best went to a Gaelscoil, followed by those who have been to the Gaeltacht several times, followed by those who have been to the Gaeltacht twice, followed by those once etc. Clearly exposure to Irish is a huge factor in improving ones Irish. It is EXTREMELY COSTLY to send a child to the Gaeltacht, and whilst scholarships are available, these are often earned in competition and presented to a child with a high ability in Irish (in my experience I have only ever witnessed A1 students in HL Irish receive scholarships).
Thirdly, I'm pretty sure more people speak Polish in Ireland now than Irish (Go on dig up the stats and tell me I'm wrong) but the majority of students who are good at Irish only use it as a "points enhancer" they're good at it, it will bring up their points and get them their college place a pretty good advantage over those D and OL students who are only sitting in the class cause the government are making them be there. It's just another way to manipulate the system.
(I'm remaining neutral, I just wanted to make those points)

LaughingOwl

I agree with a lot of points made in posts, mostly that oppose, the motion and I do not wish to repeat them but I will just say my piece. This is often a subject that I am in two minds about so here we go.

Irish needs one thing reform reform reform.

On another thread on this subject on boards, I can't remember which one as it was quite a while ago someone suggested a system whereby there is compulsory Gaeilge that is mostly speaking based and focuses on becoming more fluent in the language and there is an optional Gaeilge literature type subject.

I think this seems in my mind to be a good system. How you would exam it I am not sure. This whole education system in general needs an over hall, but that isn't in the motion.

I am sorry that I am late to the debate, my procrationating side got the better of me, oh tumblr.

I found this today yesterday and thought it might be somewhat relevent.

Peregrine

Okay so the time is pretty much up. I'll decide a winner tonight. The proposition side had the most posters but an opposing post by Layzerman accumulated the most thanks(7), making him the next chairman, if he doesn't want to, I believe one of Indiego's post got 5 thanks making her second. The opposition made a lot of good points but a lot of them were repeated

Even though everybody agreed on things like removing poetry, making reforms, changing orals I can't give too much points for that because well the motion was about making it optional. Same goes with arguments saying every subject should be optional but if you still made points relevant to the motion in your post, points were awarded.

MickFleetwood wrote: »

It should be made optional because it's taught horribly (who the **** wants to spend countless hours hunched over ...

Indiego wrote: »

...making it non-compulsory is simply reinforcing this '**** Irish..' attitude and showing that were willing to give up an important part of what...

MickFleetwood wrote: »

The LC is bull**** anyway to be honest. I think students should be able to play the system to their favor in a way..

Minus a brazillion* points for profanity! :P

* A brazillion is equivelant the population of Brazil; an indefinite number which increases by 0.86% every year

Peregrine

Okay so debate closed

And the winner is, much to my own surprise, the side supporting in favour of the motion.

While the opposing side made the strongest and extensive arguments, the supporting side was larger and made considerably more arguments.

Many of the supporting sides arguments were while good, not expanded compared to the opposing side. But the opposing side made fewer arguments(They were only 2 more good arguments away from winning if it matters to anyone) and therefore the supporting side won.

One thing that students seem to unanimously agree is that the current syllabus is useless and is hurting the language more than it is helping it. Serious changes need to be made to the way it is taught to people. Most students can't string together a coherent sentence after 14 years of education because of the way it is taught - especially at second level where focus should be removed from poetry and other forms of literature.

Over to you Stephen..