Visa Debit Card scammed

Big Bag of Chips

Alas - my bank account has been scammed to the tune of €1300.

In the long term the bank assures me that I will get the money back.

However, my anger is with the fact that the bank allowed these fraudulent transaction go through even though the account was empty at the time - yes empty! These fraudulent transactions have therefore put the account €1300 OVERDRAWN. This means when wages go in tonight they will be deducted by €1300.

I find this grossly unfair as this was an unauthorized overdraft granted by the bank to these fraudsters.

Bank manager has given the usual "That's the way the system works"

Anyone here in the banking sector with any constructive advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Howjoe1

DO you not have to sign something in writing for an overdraft to be put in place?

unclebill98

Its not a standard overdraft, you don't have to sign a form every time your accounts goes 2c over.

OP, what shop/site was the fraud done in?

Howjoe1

unclebill98 wrote: »

Its not a standard overdraft, you don't have to sign a form every time your accounts goes 2c over.

OP, what shop/site was the fraud done in?

I wouldn't expect so if 2 cent overdrawn. But €1,300 !! should be tighter bank controls

Big Bag of Chips

unclebill98 wrote: »

Its not a standard overdraft, you don't have to sign a form every time your accounts goes 2c over.

OP, what shop/site was the fraud done in?

We don't know yet where the card was compromised. We did nothing out of the ordinary online or retail recently and are very clued in on technology etc.

Big Bag of Chips

Howjoe1 wrote: »

DO you not have to sign something in writing for an overdraft to be put in place?

That is my point but manager did not want to know.

unclebill98

Its unusual for this to happen when there are no funds in account. If its not hit your statement/account yet then they can charge back the amount but this "hold" will still effect your balance etc.

What bank?

dutopia

Sorry this happened to you.

This seems very unfair; I think you have to push and shove and try to talk to the right person to get your money put back sooner. First try and politely explain the situation, you need the money etc and if not I'd start kicking up a fuss until they get their act together. My card got skimmed before and they emptied my account, the bank put the money back in within 48 hours if I recall.

listermint

Id be getting onto his senior tbh. If there is no overdraft in place then no funds should have been issued what so ever.

Its not 'the done thing' or 'the way it is'

They have breached guidelines and are in no position to pay the overdraft with your pending funds as there is none on the account in the first place.

This is their fault not yours. Phone central office or ask for the area manager.

Howjoe1

BBoC,

Hope you get sorted. Sounds to me that the bank should be the only one at fault/risk here. Keep at them . Hope your wages don't got swallowed up tomorrow with the OD in place.

Keep us posted. might be a word of warning for others. Good luck.

Big Bag of Chips

Thanks for the advice people.

I am going to ring head office and complain. I will let you know how it goes.

OneIdea

If you look at your debit card... does it say anything about €130... my bank NIB(Danske Bank) and before that PTSB, issued cards that guaranteed 130euro so I'm just guessing that your card was hit 10times ? Not sure about other banks these days, but I know NIB put a stop to guaranteeing funds as for instance someones account could go in to debit very quickly...

Big Bag of Chips

It was for 2 POS transactions in America, around 4pm yesterday evening. One transaction for over €300 one for over €900.

Glad to know that if I have no money in my bank I can continue to spend to my heart's content...!

Edit: PTSB.

Big Bag of Chips

Apparently on Pg 6 of the Terms & Conditions, we signed up to allowing the bank to authorise transactions over the over draft limit 'at their discretion'.

So their 'discretion' means allowing €1293.81 worth of transactions from America to be authorised, on an account whose balance available is €0 and has an authorised over draft of €100.

The money has not been taken YET, but a hold has been put on it (so it might as well be gone, as we can't get access to it).

It's a pain in the arse.. and it will be sorted, but my argument is, it should never have been allowed to happen in the first place.

The branch said they can allow over the limit, because the alternative is to have the transaction declined 'Would you prefer that?' (In a tone that was trying to convince me that allowing it to go through is better than the embarrassment of having the transaction refused and not being able to buy €1300 worth of shoes, in America, 2 days before pay day!)

YES! I would prefer that!!

Anyway, complaint lodged. But it doesn't change anything in the immediate term for us. We are still down almost €1300 until the fraud investigation is complete.

Thanks for all the advice.

unclebill98

So the transaction is "On Hold" on the visa debit system, it should be easy enough to clear and sort out.

Ensure your not out of pocket and the bank should have given you a temp over draft so you not stuck.

Big Bag of Chips

"Once it's 'Pending' we can't stop it, and have to leave it be investigated by the Fraud Dept".

We can get a temporary over draft, but as it's a request for credit we have to apply for it in the normal way, and wait for it to come back.. "might take a week or more".

I think between me & himself we spoke to almost everyone we could from each section.

Everyone of them giving us much the same line.

The payment is due to come out the 5th April, but a 'hold' has been put on it. Nobody can guarantee at the amount won't actually come out, but it "probably" won't come out, because we spotted it in time. Eiither way when wages go in tonight, our available balance will be wages minus €1293.81.

It all seems like it should be fairly simple and straightforward to me... But apparently it's a "very complex automated system"....?

.stranger

Try to contact the merchant and inform them about the fraud. If its online purchase, the goods will be blocked and the merchant will issue refund. I had similar experience few months back. My account got overdrawn by 600 euro. After contacting the bank, they were able to give me merchant name. The merchant was very thankful and cooperative. The shipment was blocked and they issued complete refund. The bank returned tx difference.
Hope your issue will be resolved soon.

Big Bag of Chips

As far as we know it was a card transaction in America. 2 seperate ones. Seems like the card was skimmed and then physically used in store.. so I'm guessing the goods are long gone!

I was thinking about emailing them anyway to let them know, but himself said that's what the Gardai or Fraud Dept would be doing now..

Would it be worth trying it anyway?

.stranger

If the goods are gone, I would leave it up to authorities to deal with that. Sorry mate...

dotsman

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Alas - my bank account has been scammed to the tune of €1300.

In the long term the bank assures me that I will get the money back.

However, my anger is with the fact that the bank allowed these fraudulent transaction go through even though the account was empty at the time - yes empty! These fraudulent transactions have therefore put the account €1300 OVERDRAWN. This means when wages go in tonight they will be deducted by €1300.

I find this grossly unfair as this was an unauthorized overdraft granted by the bank to these fraudsters.

Bank manager has given the usual "That's the way the system works"

Anyone here in the banking sector with any constructive advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

This is your answer...

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

2 days before pay day!.

The account balance being empty is not so much the issue here. It would be different if the account was always empty - then that should have definitely triggered alarm bells. But given that your wages were due to be paid, I can only guess the that it was authorised as they could see that you had wages coming into your account within 2 days that would cover the payments, and probably just assumed you had gone on holidays.

It's a lose-lose situation for the bank. As can be seen many times on this forum, for every customer who complains that the bank authorised a transaction, there is a customer who will complain that the bank didn't.

What people need to understand is that a current account can always go overdrawn. When people apply for an overdraft, what they are really applying for is an "Authorised overdraft" - that is the bank has promised to at least always allow the account go overdrawn to the set limit.

What is the real stinger here is that the transactions were fraudulent and I fully understand your anger/frustration. But had the fraud taken place 2 days later, they would have cleared the 1300 (and possibly more) anyway. The bank allowing the overdraft was merely unfortunate.

Big Bag of Chips

But surely there should be checks in place to flag for "unusual activity"?

A very quick glance at the account would have shown a range of Aldi and Tesco transactions for a few quid (coming to the end of the month, very low funds!) And also that our over draft has never gone over the €100 authorised amount.. not even close! Why would 2 such large transactions 5 minutes apart not ring alarm bells somewhere?! They had no clue of it until we rang them to query it!

I don't argue that this is the policy or procedure of PTSB - in fact, I can accept that.. I just think (and will argue!) that it is a very bad policy/procedure, that leaves people open to fraud!

"Discretion" I could accept, and may sometime be grateful for, if it was €40 or €50 on groceries at the end of the month, not €1300 on shoes in America!! If I was planning a holiday to America, I'd plan it after payday, or arrange that money would definitely be available - not risk that the bank would allow €1300 worth of transactions on an account with €0 balance "at their discretion"!

enviro

I work in retail and regularly see transactions being declined, sometimes for insufficient funds... I know this because a part cash payment is made and then the transaction goes through upon trying again...

My point; how did this €1300 transaction(s) get authorised?, the cards won't allow a transaction of a couple of euro over the limit (zero balance or overdraft maxed out) through the machine in my experience. ???

As it was an international transaction maybe?

Is there no security measure in place, for example a card used in Ireland this morning is unlikely to be used in the U.S this evening.

I think Visa/ the banks need to wake up.

What would happen if the account holder had a modest income and was cleaned out by this fraud. Are they expected to go a week without money???
Surely the option of applying for an overdraft is null and void in that scenario.

Atlantic Dawn

If it was point of sale in America there would have been no PIN required and I would use this complete lack of security of their systems as a point of argument with them. Ask why no photo identification was confirmed by the vendor and put the blame in the vendor and themselves.

wmpdd3

I have had plenty of declines on VISA debit so the only reason I can see that it went through must be the fact you usually get paid.

But does that mean that there was human interaction in the fraud, surly an automated system doesn't authorise the transaction based on the monthly deposit of wages.

If there was human interaction then to what extent? A bank employee saw this transaction and let it go through?

edenbridge146

Hi worked in a UK bank for couple of years a long time ago and learned a few tips of how to minimise fraud on your account.

You can ring your bank and ask them to put a limit on any purchase item of let's say €300 euro. If you buy anything above that amount, the retailer has to ring for authorisation. All retailers have a phone number they ring just for authorisations. Similarly you can put a maximum withdrawal daily limit on your current account from an ATM.

Just little tips but can help reduce the damage. I got stung years ago for €3k and transactions were done in USA

LOTTOWINNER

OP, Sorry for digging up an old thread, the same thing happened to my wife last week, New York transactions also, cleared out 1100 plus 200 overdraft (un authorized) she has notified Bank's fraud dept and gave statement to police.
Just wondering how long does it take to get sorted out?

Big Bag of Chips

When I made the initial phone call to query what the transaction was, I was told "weeks, maybe 2 months". Keeping in mind we noticed 3 hours after the transaction and rang then.

But we rang again, asked for supervisors, managers. I went Into my branch and sat in front of customers services manager and burst into tears when he told me they could authorise an over draft to cover the amount, while the fraud was being investigated, but we had to apply for it in the usual way and would take 10 days - 2 weeks.

We just wouldn't accept "that's just the way it is" type replies, and kept ringing, complaining, questioning the "discretion" etc...

It was all cleared up and sorted in about 3 days!

I think it could have taken, "weeks" as mentioned in the first phone call if we hadn't kept annoying them.

Don't let it go. Don't be fobbed off, and make enough of a nuisance of yourself that they sort it out soon.

LOTTOWINNER

Thanks Big Bag of chips,

Well done on getting it sorted so quickly, in my wife's case the transactions were last Thursday and she noticed 4 hours later and contacted the bank fraud department, but even though the transactions were still pending, they went through on Monday, unfortunately we both work when the bank branches are open so are relying on the phone banking to make our complaint. and of course only my wife can discuss the situation with the fraud department, cause I'd love to speak them and ask them a few questions about bank security!!!!
We're still amazed how even though the account didn't have an overdraft facility, the account was overdrawn (live and learn!)

Thanks again.

Big Bag of Chips

They tried the "we'll only speak to your wife" line on us too. It's a joint account, but my card was the one used. But when I was getting nowhere, I told them I gave my consent for them to discuss it with my husband.. who is much better at complaining and questioning than I am! And just handed the phone to him.

We were very surprised when it got sorted so quickly. But we did query the complaints procedure with everyone we spoke to, so I think they just wanted rid of us!

3DataModem

Ask the bank to give you a temporary 1300 authorized overdraft until the issue is resolved. They should have no problem doing this for a relatively small amount on your normal current account so close to Christmas.

Big Bag of Chips

When I needed it to cover our €1300 I was told I'd have to apply for it as it was credit, and would take 10 days, at least (even though it was only going to be temporary for the length of time it took to sort it out) THAT was when I burst into tears!!
Luckily we kicked up enough stink that it was sorted very quickly and we didn't need it.