North Korea orders missile units to prepare for war

RobitTV

North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un has ordered missile units to prepare to strike US mainland as a British tour operator was warned that the "outbreak of war probably only hours away".

Mr Kim directed his rocket units on standby at an overnight emergency meeting with top army commanders, hours after nuclear-capable US B-2 stealth bombers were deployed in ongoing US joint military drills with South Korea.

In the event of any "reckless" US provocation, North Korean forces should "mercilessly strike the US mainland ... military bases in the Pacific, including Hawaii and Guam, and those in South Korea", he was quoted as saying by the official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA).

While North Korea has no proven ability to conduct such strikes, Mr Kim said: "The time has come to settle accounts with the US imperialists."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9961610/North-Korea-outbreak-of-war-hours-away-as-Kim-Jong-un-plans-US-strike.html

-
Heres one of my scenarios

The North is incapable of a nuclear strike on the US mainland, say experts. They do not believe it can mount a nuclear warhead on to a long-range missile and are sceptical that such a missile could reach the mainland anyway.

Experts say the North's Soviet-era Scud missiles could hit South Korea, where the US has bases, but it is unclear whether its longer-range missiles could hit Pacific bases. In theory, targeting US forces nearby would not only be more feasible but also smarter in strategic terms, noted Adam Cathcart, an expert on the North at Queen's University Belfast, exacerbating tensions and arguments in Japan and South Korea about how to deal with the North and the role of the US.

But he added: "I don't see it happening, simply because of the response."

The North knows attacking US assets would be a suicidal move, say analysts.

"Seoul is much more vulnerable [than US assets]. You could fire a rocket or two somewhere near Incheon airport, just to show you could do it … or push ships south of the [disputed] Northern Limit Line," said Dr James Hoare, the former British chargé d'affaires in Pyongyang.

Cathcart points out that there is a history of border clashes. "We could be going back to a slightly more Hobbesian situation along the DMZ or Northern Limit Line."

That does not mean the North will carry out its oft-repeated vow to turn Seoul into "a sea of fire". Although it could cause serious damage and large-scale loss of life, analysts suggest the apocalyptic scenarios drawn by some are unfeasible. In any case it would risk severe retaliation and any such strike could also kill Chinese citizens living in the South — alienating the country's main ally, on which it remains heavily dependent.

Manach

Hopefully nothing comes of it, in there has been a history of overt/covert saber rattling in the area for as long as I remember. As OP said, North Korea is highly dependant on China whose rulers would realise that any serious incident would be bad for the world economy and hence a knock-on effect to their own economy.

youtube!

What is dangerous about this is a small slip up even by accidental means could start a chain reaction of god knows what, Kim is playing with serious fire here.

Sierra Oscar

Biggest danger is that virtually all communications have now been severed by North Korea, which greatly increases the possibility of something minor spiralling out of control.

woodoo

You can't take them seriously. They use all this cartoon style dramatic doom laden wording threatening to strike but never do.

RobitTV

RobitTV

The images show a chart marked "US mainland strike plan" and missile trajectories that the NK News web site estimates terminate in Hawaii, Washington DC, Los Angeles and Austin, Texas.

The photos appeared in the state-run Rodong newspaper and were apparently taken at an "emergency meeting" early on Friday morning. They show Kim signing the order for North Korea's strategic rocket forces to be on standby to fire at US targets, the paper said, with large-scale maps and diagrams in the background.

walshb

The U.S. and its allies will wipe NK out if they have to. And only too happy to test their weapons.

goose2005

RobitTV wrote: »

The images show a chart marked "US mainland strike plan" and missile trajectories that the NK News web site estimates terminate in Hawaii, Washington DC, Los Angeles and Austin, Texas.

The photos appeared in the state-run Rodong newspaper and were apparently taken at an "emergency meeting" early on Friday morning. They show Kim signing the order for North Korea's strategic rocket forces to be on standby to fire at US targets, the paper said, with large-scale maps and diagrams in the background.

A U.S. map copied from Google Earth.

murphaph

goose2005 wrote: »

A U.S. map copied from Google Earth.

At least someone in North Korea has the Internet.

bmaxi

walshb wrote: »

The U.S. and its allies will wipe NK out if they have to. And only too happy to test their weapons.

At what cost? China will not stand idly by and see North Korea wiped out, they didn't in 1950 and they won't now. It's not for any love of the North Koreans, rather a case of North Korea being a buffer between them and U.S. sphere of influence. North Korea could suddenly and surprisingly be in possession of many new weapons and the Yanks know that.

RobitTV

North Korea: Kim Jong-un 'targets George W. Bush's home state of Texas'

A South Korean news organisation, NK News, published a composite image with a map of America overlaying the original. It claimed that Mr Bush’s home state of Texas was, possibly, in North Korea’s sights.

Yet Texans reacted with bemusement yesterday upon learning that they, too, may be in the line of fire. “Was it me?” asked Karl Rove, Mr Bush’s former aide and fellow Texan.

Three other US targets appeared to have clear strategic value: Washington, DC, America’s capital; California, its most populous state; and Hawaii, a key US military outpost in the Pacific.

Some Texans, however, suggested the path in fact led 95 miles south to Austin, the state’s capital, and speculated that Mr Kim had taken against the liberal enclave’s young “hipster” population.

Kirk Watson, a state senator and former mayor of the city, described Mr Kim’s threat as “the ultimate Austin-bashing legislation”. After Mr Kim was also pictured working at an Apple iMac computer, one local resident also suggested that as the “ultimate Apple fanboy”, he planned to “nuke Dell”, the PC giant, which is located nearby. :pac:

Questions were raised over how Mr Kim had obtained the computer, given that America has a trade embargo with North Korea. Apple warns buyers on its website that the export of its products to North Korea is “strictly prohibited”.

A tour operator from Wigan, United Kingdom meanwhile said on Friday that he had received an email warning him to stay out of North Korea.

The email said US stealth bomber flights over North Korea had made the situation "critical with the outbreak of war probably only hours away".

Dylan Harris, 34, who organises sporting trips to "unusual" locations, said he had cancelled forthcoming tours but one British client was still in the country on a golf holiday. It was not clear who the email was from. Pyongyang has said it will allow tourists to enter and exit.

"My customers know what they are getting into," said Mr Harris.
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fairly hilarious, just shows how serious this threat from the dear leader is taken. :pac:

G Power

bmaxi wrote: »

At what cost? China will not stand idly by and see North Korea wiped out, they didn't in 1950 and they won't now. It's not for any love of the North Koreans, rather a case of North Korea being a buffer between them and U.S. sphere of influence. North Korea could suddenly and surprisingly be in possession of many new weapons and the Yanks know that.

ara no, sure it'll be grand and we the people will do nothing to highlight the fact none of us could actually want this so why don't each country start demonstrations against this and all the other **** being done by many countries in our name and for our safety and security.

our safety and security my ar$e!!

RobitTV

Breaking: North Korea announces 'state of war' with South

North Korea announces that it has entered a "state of war" with South Korea and would deal with every inter-Korean issue accordingly.

"As of now, inter-Korea relations enter a state of war and all matters between the two Koreas will be handled according to wartime protocol," the North said in a joint statement attributed to all government bodies and institutions.

"The long-standing situation of the Korean peninsula being neither at peace nor at war is finally over," said the statement carried by the official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA).

This has been seen as a official war declaration upon South Korea

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/03/2013330031388862.html

Iwasfrozen

RobitTV wrote: »

Breaking: North Korea announces 'state of war' with South

North Korea announces that it has entered a "state of war" with South Korea and would deal with every inter-Korean issue accordingly.

"As of now, inter-Korea relations enter a state of war and all matters between the two Koreas will be handled according to wartime protocol," the North said in a joint statement attributed to all government bodies and institutions.

"The long-standing situation of the Korean peninsula being neither at peace nor at war is finally over," said the statement carried by the official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA).

This has been seen as a official war declaration upon South Korea

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/03/2013330031388862.html

Nothing new, they've been at war for 50 years.

COYW

More shape throwing by the NKs. If they are silly enough to attack, the American, Japanese and South Korean forces combined will wipe them out in a day or two. China won't get in their way on this one, even though they are as close to NK as any nation.

I feel sorry for the NK people, as they are the ones who will really suffer in all this.

Iwasfrozen

G Power wrote: »

ara no, sure it'll be grand and we the people will do nothing to highlight the fact none of us could actually want this so why don't each country start demonstrations against this and all the other **** being done by many countries in our name and for our safety and security.

our safety and security my ar$e!!

What are you even talking about? I'm not sure any more you just seem to be angry in general and not quite sure how to direct it.

smcgiff

It's possible Kim is bat excrement crazy, think Hitler at the end of the second world war directing fictional forces - he was raised by a man that considered a living deity. Maybe he believes all the BS.

I wouldn't like to live in Seoul right now.

COYW

smcgiff wrote: »

It's possible Kim is bat excrement crazy, think Hitler at the end of the second world war directing fictional forces - he was raised by a man that considered a living deity. Maybe he believes all the BS.

I wouldn't like to live in Seoul right now.

He was educated in Switzerland. I would have thought that that experience would have given him given him some perspective on NKs position in the world, in terms of a military force. As I said, I hope/think this is just propaganda based shape-throwing.

Sierra Oscar

smcgiff wrote: »

It's possible Kim is bat excrement crazy, think Hitler at the end of the second world war directing fictional forces - he was raised by a man that considered a living deity. Maybe he believes all the BS.

I wouldn't like to live in Seoul right now.

I would imagine Kim is clued in fairly well. As was said earlier, he spent a sizable portion of his youth outside of Korea so I would imagine he knows how the real world works to some extent.

The people of North Korea are starving due to economic mismanagement and the application of severe economic sanctions by the west. Kim needs to get these sanctions alleviated, and this is what this is all about. However the chance of one side misinterpreting the actions of the other are at an all time high.

meathstevie

Them select few in the pictures look remarkably well fed to be living in a country where vast numbers of people are living on starvation rations.

I could not imagine a scenario in which the Chinese are going to be backing North Korea to an extent where all their important export destination countries are going to become de facto enemies. The Chinese may fancy themselves as an up and coming global power but if there's one thing they definitely aren't it's stupid.

Lantus

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I would imagine Kim is clued in fairly well. As was said earlier, he spent a sizable portion of his youth outside of Korea so I would imagine he knows how the real world works to some extent.

The people of North Korea are starving due to economic mismanagement and the application of severe economic sanctions by the west. Kim needs to get these sanctions alleviated, and this is what this is all about. However the chance of one side misinterpreting the actions of the other are at an all time high.

Agreed. This to me seems to be an exercise in getting a young leader to be taken seriously. A man who can project power and fear and inspire his country to do whatever he wants.

Kim does not care his country his starving because he is not. I would imagine he eats quite well. Why change the status quo when you gain preferencial advantage from the current system.

Either he will go down in history as the man who started a nuclear war in Asia or he will more likley die of old age like his father after a life of indulgence and power.

dsmythy

This is all just 60th anniversary marking if you ask me. Ignore them. You can inflict a devestating first strike but afer that the game is up for the North Korean leadership. They have nice cosy lives, wouldn't want it ruined by either Americans or Koreans from North or South banging down your door with a noose at the ready.

bmaxi

meathstevie wrote: »

Them select few in the pictures look remarkably well fed to be living in a country where vast numbers of people are living on starvation rations.

I could not imagine a scenario in which the Chinese are going to be backing North Korea to an extent where all their important export destination countries are going to become de facto enemies. The Chinese may fancy themselves as an up and coming global power but if there's one thing they definitely aren't it's stupid.

China would probably not overtly back them, i.e. with troops on the ground, but I reckon they would logistically back them, as indeed may the Russians. Neither would want South Korea gaining control of the North. If it came to a nuclear showdown however, I doubt either the Chinese or the Russians would want that and would be twisting arms, if not necks.
I'd reckon the message from Beijing would be, "have a go conventionally with SK if you must, but hands off US interests". Having a go at the US in the region is non runner.

walshb

China may aid the Nks, but the Russians will not. The U.S. and Russia, although from bosom buddies, are a lot closer than they used to be. NK are crazy. Nut jobs, brainwashed by a complete fruit loop!

Mech1

RobitTV wrote: »

North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un has ordered missile units to prepare to strike US mainland as a British tour operator was warned that the "outbreak of war probably only hours away".

Mr Kim directed his rocket units on standby at an overnight emergency meeting with top army commanders, hours after nuclear-capable US B-2 stealth bombers were deployed in ongoing US joint military drills with South Korea.

In the event of any "reckless" US provocation, North Korean forces should "mercilessly strike the US mainland ... military bases in the Pacific, including Hawaii and Guam, and those in South Korea", he was quoted as saying by the official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA).

While North Korea has no proven ability to conduct such strikes, Mr Kim said: "The time has come to settle accounts with the US imperialists."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9961610/North-Korea-outbreak-of-war-hours-away-as-Kim-Jong-un-plans-US-strike.html

-
Heres one of my scenarios

The North is incapable of a nuclear strike on the US mainland, say experts. They do not believe it can mount a nuclear warhead on to a long-range missile and are sceptical that such a missile could reach the mainland anyway.

Experts say the North's Soviet-era Scud missiles could hit South Korea, where the US has bases, but it is unclear whether its longer-range missiles could hit Pacific bases. In theory, targeting US forces nearby would not only be more feasible but also smarter in strategic terms, noted Adam Cathcart, an expert on the North at Queen's University Belfast, exacerbating tensions and arguments in Japan and South Korea about how to deal with the North and the role of the US.

But he added: "I don't see it happening, simply because of the response."

The North knows attacking US assets would be a suicidal move, say analysts.

"Seoul is much more vulnerable [than US assets]. You could fire a rocket or two somewhere near Incheon airport, just to show you could do it … or push ships south of the [disputed] Northern Limit Line," said Dr James Hoare, the former British chargé d'affaires in Pyongyang.

Cathcart points out that there is a history of border clashes. "We could be going back to a slightly more Hobbesian situation along the DMZ or Northern Limit Line."

That does not mean the North will carry out its oft-repeated vow to turn Seoul into "a sea of fire". Although it could cause serious damage and large-scale loss of life, analysts suggest the apocalyptic scenarios drawn by some are unfeasible. In any case it would risk severe retaliation and any such strike could also kill Chinese citizens living in the South — alienating the country's main ally, on which it remains heavily dependent.

One of "your" scenarios?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/29/north-korea-attack-us-what-happens-next

the_syco

bmaxi wrote: »

At what cost? China will not stand idly by and see North Korea wiped out

The Chinese may remember what happens when someone attacks the USA; I'm sure there's still a few people alive that saw the mushroom clouds in Japan.

The Chinese would be operating against the USA, Japan, and the South Koreans.

COYW wrote: »

He was educated in Switzerland. I would have thought that that experience would have given him given him some perspective on NKs position in the world, in terms of a military force. As I said, I hope/think this is just propaganda based shape-throwing.

Now that Daddy is gone, I'd wonder is the head of state just a puppet with his strings pulled by high ranking officials?

=-=

If NK does something stupid, and attacks SK with anything other than conventional weapons, all bets are off, and SK would invade NK with the backing of America and Japan. If China stood in the way, they'd be accused of supplying the non-conventional weapons to NK, and would suddenly find themselves under scrutiny by the world.

Something the Chinese seem to look to avoid...

morlock_

Nothing will happen.
You should be more concerned about the proxy war in Syria between Israels bitch (NATO countries) and Iran.

bmaxi

walshb wrote: »

China may aid the Nks, but the Russians will not. The U.S. and Russia, although from bosom buddies, are a lot closer than they used to be. NK are crazy. Nut jobs, brainwashed by a complete fruit loop!

The Russia of 2013 is not the Russia of the Yeltsin era, Putin has almost returned it to the days of the USSR in terms of it's attitude to the West in general. Remember the reaction to the US placing missile defences in eastern Europe? They're hardly going to relish unhindered US access to an area less than 100 miles from the home of the Russian Pacific fleet.

morlock_

bmaxi wrote: »

The Russia of 2013 is not the Russia of the Yeltsin era, Putin has almost returned it to the days of the USSR in terms of it's attitude to the West in general. Remember the reaction to the US placing missile defences in eastern Europe? They're hardly going to relish unhindered US access to an area less than 100 miles from the home of the Russian Pacific fleet.

Why is Putin's position so unreasonable when you factor in the Yeltsin era?
Yeltsin was a drunkard that the western corporations LOVED because it was so easy to exploit the country and it's people. His incompetence reverberates to this day.

Putin is actually good for Russia, despite what western media has portrayed, Russians have a much higher standard of living than they would under foreign ownership.

He's no Bertie Ahern...but he's trying to do the right thing for Russia, not some banking cartel.

bmaxi

the_syco wrote: »

The Chinese may remember what happens when someone attacks the USA; I'm sure there's still a few people alive that saw the mushroom clouds in Japan.

The Chinese would be operating against the USA, Japan, and the South Koreans.


Now that Daddy is gone, I'd wonder is the head of state just a puppet with his strings pulled by high ranking officials?

=-=

If NK does something stupid, and attacks SK with anything other than conventional weapons, all bets are off, and SK would invade NK with the backing of America and Japan. If China stood in the way, they'd be accused of supplying the non-conventional weapons to NK, and would suddenly find themselves under scrutiny by the world.

Something the Chinese seem to look to avoid...

How does this differ from my assessment?

Duggys Housemate

morlock_ wrote: »

Why is Putin's position so unreasonable when you factor in the Yeltsin era?
Yeltsin was a drunkard that the western corporations LOVED because it was so easy to exploit the country and it's people. His incompetence reverberates to this day.

Putin is actually good for Russia, despite what western media has portrayed, Russians have a much higher standard of living than they would under foreign ownership.

He's no Bertie Ahern...but he's trying to do the right thing for Russia, not some banking cartel.

Putin is the head of the criminal cartels which run Russia. The country is totally corrupt.

morlock_

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Putin is the head of the criminal cartels which run Russia. The country is totally corrupt.

"head of the criminal cartel" ? And what evidence do you have to support this absurd belief? Some punditry from mainstream news?

Is that why western powers hate him so much? Because he's head of a criminal network?

The Russian Mafia is controlled by people that hold dual citizenship with a country which is nothing more than a hub of criminality in the middle east.

The top destination for young women from Russia that become sex slaves which also forces black women to be sterilised.

Have a guess what country that is.
It just happens to be the base of operations for Russian Mafia and a great place to launder money.

Duggys Housemate

morlock_ wrote: »

"head of the criminal cartel" ? And what evidence do you have to support this absurd belief? Some punditry from mainstream news?

Is that why western powers hate him so much? Because he's head of a criminal network?

The Russian Mafia is controlled by people that hold dual citizenship with a country which is nothing more than a hub of criminality in the middle east.

The top destination for young women from Russia that become sex slaves which also forces black women to be sterilised.

Have a guess what country that is.
It just happens to be the base of operations for Russian Mafia and a great place to launder money.

More anti-Semite scum populating boards, I see.

morlock_

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

More anti-Semite scum populating boards, I see.

Instead of using a coherent argument, smear your opponent.
Perhaps you should read about Russian criminality before commenting, you know? Educate yourself about the circumstances first, then you might have a coherent argument to make.

Lockstep

morlock_ wrote: »

"head of the criminal cartel" ? And what evidence do you have to support this absurd belief? Some punditry from mainstream news?

Is that why western powers hate him so much? Because he's head of a criminal network?

The Russian Mafia is controlled by people that hold dual citizenship with a country which is nothing more than a hub of criminality in the middle east.

The top destination for young women from Russia that become sex slaves which also forces black women to be sterilised.

Have a guess what country that is.
It just happens to be the base of operations for Russian Mafia and a great place to launder money.

This is dangerously close to anti-Israeli bigotry. Tread very carefully

morlock_

Lockstep wrote: »

This is dangerously close to anti-Israeli bigotry. Tread very carefully

How is it anti-Israeli to simply state facts?

The problem here is that those accusing Putin of being head of a criminal cartel clearly don't understand how the Russian mafia work.

For me to be accused of being "anti-Semite scum" simply for educating myself about how the Russian Mafia operate is a new low for these forums.

If Putin is head of criminal cartel in Russia, let's see some evidence to back up that statement or am I being "anti-Semitic" for asking? :rolleyes:

Lockstep

morlock_ wrote: »

How is it anti-Israeli to simply state facts?

The problem here is that those accusing Putin of being head of a criminal cartel clearly don't understand how the Russian mafia work.

For me to be accused of being "anti-Semite scum" simply for educating myself about how the Russian Mafia operate is a new low for these forums.

If Putin is head of criminal cartel in Russia, let's see some evidence to back up that statement or am I being "anti-Semitic" for asking? :rolleyes:

You're new so I'm going to assume you haven't read the Charter. If you have a problem with my moderating then feel free to PM me. Don't challenge my moderating in the thread.
If you're going to portray Israel as some sort of criminal haven, then source your posts. Don't throw around anti-Israeli opinions without evidence.
That's about it really, if you have a problem with this, then PM me.
I also suggest you read the Charter before posting again.

Lockstep

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

More anti-Semite scum populating boards, I see.

Lay off the personal abuse as well please.

the_syco

morlock_ wrote: »

Nothing will happen.
You should be more concerned about the proxy war in Syria between Israels bitch (NATO countries) and Iran.

I'd say NK has more of a chance of making a play against the USA, than Iran has of an open direct attack against Israel.

bmaxi wrote: »

How does this differ from my assessment?

In 1950, Russia only had NK for about 5 years, so I'd say they didn't want to let go of it so easily. Since then, America has been attacking a lot more. Although they could count Vietnam as a "win", they should realise that they won as activists went against the war effort, and caused the Americans to pull out. However, as the Twin Towers have shown, if attacked, America will go in it for the long hall. So if SK is attacked by non-conventional weapons, China may decide to stand back as they may not want its shiny new toys dragged into a long and bitter war with the USA.

morlock_ wrote: »

Putin is actually good for Russia, despite what western media has portrayed, Russians have a much higher standard of living than they would under foreign ownership.

He's no Bertie Ahern...but he's trying to do the right thing for Russia, not some banking cartel.

And unlike the construction industry, the oil and gas lines will be around for some time to come. From what I've read, they're pumping a lot into the military.

morlock_ wrote: »

Is that why western powers hate him so much? Because he's head of a criminal network?

Agreed. On a side note, Putin is fairly corrupt, but only in how he takes over the oil companies by force and jails the previous owners under some bullsh|t charge.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

More anti-Semite scum populating boards, I see.

Where the **** does he mention the jews?

/edit
Just seen Locksteps post. Didn't mean to argue against any mod points. Interested in how/why the "anti-Semite" comment came into play, however.

bmaxi

morlock_ wrote: »

Why is Putin's position so unreasonable when you factor in the Yeltsin era?
Yeltsin was a drunkard that the western corporations LOVED because it was so easy to exploit the country and it's people. His incompetence reverberates to this day.

Putin is actually good for Russia, despite what western media has portrayed, Russians have a much higher standard of living than they would under foreign ownership.

He's no Bertie Ahern...but he's trying to do the right thing for Russia, not some banking cartel.

I simply stated Russia's position vis-a vis the West and the difference between the two eras. I never implied that Yeltsin was a saint nor Putin a sinner, any such opinion would be irrelevant in the context of this thread.

bmaxi

the_syco wrote: »

In 1950, Russia only had NK for about 5 years, so I'd say they didn't want to let go of it so easily. Since then, America has been attacking a lot more. Although they could count Vietnam as a "win", they should realise that they won as activists went against the war effort, and caused the Americans to pull out. However, as the Twin Towers have shown, if attacked, America will go in it for the long hall. So if SK is attacked by non-conventional weapons, China may decide to stand back as they may not want its shiny new toys dragged into a long and bitter war with the USA.

The Korean war doesn't enter into the equation,it's today's Russian concerns that could lead to their covert involvement. I've already said that I doubt China would countenance use of nuclear weapons or an attack on US interests in the region. Any involvement by Russia or China would be in the interests of protecting their borders, not in defending North Korea.

walshb

If anyone thinks that the Chinese or Russians are gonna stick their necks out to defend NK against the U.S. should the U.S. need to attack then they should think again.

morlock_

the_syco wrote:

And unlike the construction industry, the oil and gas lines will be around for some time to come. From what I've read, they're pumping a lot into the military.

I agree with some analysts that Russian military isn't a priority considering problems facing the population but I think the rebuilding of their military arsenal was inevitable after the Georgia-Russia crisis in 2008. It's just Putin's response to NATO expansion in the region.

Georgia's actions under the puppet Saakashvili was tacitly approved by NATO and when Russia sees what's happened in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, (more recently Syria and Africa) understandably they're a little uneasy, wondering when it'll be their turn.

NATO claim their "missile defence" shield is for a middle eastern "rogue" state, (presumably Iran) but it's potentially more of a threat to Russia's sovereignty and they know this now. When Putin asked NATO to have joint operation of the sheild, NATO general Anders Fogh said it would be inefficient to have a "a unified, integrated system" and confirms what Putin already suspected.

It's a logical assumption that if NATO countries can't coerce Russia to "be a good boy" and let foreign companies exploit their gas/oil reserves, they might try the old strategy of a proxy war in some of Russia's smaller states like Georgia or Chechnya using the old reliable Mujaheddin / Islamic mercenaries...aka Al Qaeda.

the_syco

bmaxi wrote: »

The Korean war doesn't enter into the equation,it's today's Russian concerns that could lead to their covert involvement. I've already said that I doubt China would countenance use of nuclear weapons or an attack on US interests in the region. Any involvement by Russia or China would be in the interests of protecting their borders, not in defending North Korea.

I agree with what you're saying, but at the same time, I'm thinking that China will do all it can to keep the NK as a buffer zone between it and America. I wouldn't put it past China to kill the current dude in NK, and blame the American CIA, to ensure that the Chinese don't have to play their hand.

Duggys Housemate

the_syco wrote: »

I'd say NK has more of a chance of making a play against the USA, than Iran has of an open direct attack against Israel.


In 1950, Russia only had NK for about 5 years, so I'd say they didn't want to let go of it so easily. Since then, America has been attacking a lot more. Although they could count Vietnam as a "win", they should realise that they won as activists went against the war effort, and caused the Americans to pull out. However, as the Twin Towers have shown, if attacked, America will go in it for the long hall. So if SK is attacked by non-conventional weapons, China may decide to stand back as they may not want its shiny new toys dragged into a long and bitter war with the USA.


And unlike the construction industry, the oil and gas lines will be around for some time to come. From what I've read, they're pumping a lot into the military.


Agreed. On a side note, Putin is fairly corrupt, but only in how he takes over the oil companies by force and jails the previous owners under some bullsh|t charge.


Where the **** does he mention the jews?

/edit
Just seen Locksteps post. Didn't mean to argue against any mod points. Interested in how/why the "anti-Semite" comment came into play, however.

Really. What part of this is not mentioning Jews.

The Russian Mafia is controlled by people that hold dual citizenship with a country which is nothing more than a hub of criminality in the middle east.

He then goes on to make clear that country is Israel.

Duggys Housemate

morlock_ wrote: »

I agree with some analysts that Russian military isn't a priority considering problems facing the population but I think the rebuilding of their military arsenal was inevitable after the Georgia-Russia crisis in 2008. It's just Putin's response to NATO expansion in the region.

Georgia's actions under the puppet Saakashvili was tacitly approved by NATO and when Russia sees what's happened in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, (more recently Syria and Africa) understandably they're a little uneasy, wondering when it'll be their turn.

NATO claim their "missile defence" shield is for a middle eastern "rogue" state, (presumably Iran) but it's potentially more of a threat to Russia's sovereignty and they know this now. When Putin asked NATO to have joint operation of the sheild, NATO general Anders Fogh said it would be inefficient to have a "a unified, integrated system" and confirms what Putin already suspected.

It's a logical assumption that if NATO countries can't coerce Russia to "be a good boy" and let foreign companies exploit their gas/oil reserves, they might try the old strategy of a proxy war in some of Russia's smaller states like Georgia or Chechnya using the old reliable Mujaheddin / Islamic mercenaries...aka Al Qaeda.

I love the way, in the minds of the modern conspiratorial anti-Semite the democratically elected pro-Western state leaders are "puppets", these countries have no right to self determination from poor "Russia", and nor can they host missiles on their sovereign territory because the Russians imperialists might get upset.

This pro-Russianism is a modern kind of fascism, Putin is effectively a fascist, with his corporate takeover of a semi-capitalist system devoid of the rule of law, and there is the increasing hysterical anti- Israelism and anti-semitism. As seen in Morlocks posts.

morlock_

Duggys Housemate wrote:

Really. What part of this is not mentioning Jews.

The Russian Mafia is controlled by people that hold dual citizenship with a country which is nothing more than a hub of criminality in the middle east.

He then goes on to make clear that country is Israel.

This is a blatant lie and you know it.
You're the one that made the connection with Israel, not me.

Show me where I made "clear that country is Israel" -- you can't find it because I didn't say it.

I love the way, in the minds of the modern conspiratorial anti-Semite the democratically elected pro-Western state leaders are "puppets", these countries have no right to self determination from poor "Russia", and nor can they host missiles on their sovereign territory because the Russians imperialists might get upset.

You've already received an infraction for calling me "anti-Semite scum" and now you're attempting to detract and connect a simple opinion based on objective analysis with conspiracy theory. Whatever next?

I'll ask you one last time.
Do you have evidence of Russia's president being head of criminal cartels? Yes or No?

Calling me names doesn't validate your statement, it makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist, not me.

This pro-Russianism is a modern kind of fascism, Putin is effectively a fascist, with his corporate takeover of a semi-capitalist system devoid of the rule of law, and there is the increasing hysterical anti- Israelism and anti-semitism. As seen in Morlocks posts.

My God...now I'm pro-Russianism (whatever the fck that is) for expressing an opinion and thus a supporter of fascism...
Do you have anything constructive to add or would you prefer to continue calling me names?

Have at it my friend because I'm done with your credulous and slanderous accusations. They're really weak arguments.

AllthingsCP

South Korea, USA, could not force a win in the 50's when the North only received small aid from USSR and troop aid from China when the North did not have any WMD's.

A war with the North will be bloody for all involved Nuclear attacks on the North by the USA or anyone will be playing a dangerous game risking involvement from Russia or China due to the close borders and Nuclear split over.

The American and SK would be fighting an hostile 25 million people would not be like Iraq. The North Korean Army are well trained equipment wise their Guns still kill and enough of them used together will defiantly fight the invaders. It would be in China and Russia interests to defend the North 6 Trillion dollar resource from a economic weakling United States, Never mind the tactical levity the USA would hold over Russia and China if North was conquered.

The American are fool-hearty if they think the NK will be another Iraq 6weeks war then rebuilt.

A war with the North could easily drag Europe, Russia, China and USA in conflict.

At the end of the day the war was bought about by two big states using the Korean people as their toy soldiers to fight their war of growth for their own global Dominion. Korea Vietnam Afgan, Americans and USSR had a part to play in each conflict. A toe to toe war would have resulted in one been wipe off the superpower board so use these country's to fight a mini war as such American support one side USSR support the other. Only thing that changed its now Russia, China and America.

Manic Moran

AllthingsCP wrote: »

South Korea, USA, could not force a win in the 50's when the North only received small aid from USSR and troop aid from China when the North did not have any WMD's.

I don't know if I would consider 2.6 million soliders (of which almost a half million were killed) sent by the Chinese as a contribution to be dismissed merely as 'troop aid.'

Common consensus seems to be that any Chinese reaction would be pretty similar to 1950: If DPRK were to start something, the Chinese wouldn't intervene unless and until the UN forces actively invaded the North.

NTM

AllthingsCP

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don't know if I would consider 2.6 million soliders (of which almost a half million were killed) sent by the Chinese as a contribution to be dismissed merely as 'troop aid.'

Common consensus seems to be that any Chinese reaction would be pretty similar to 1950: If DPRK were to start something, the Chinese wouldn't intervene unless and until the UN forces actively invaded the North.

NTM

That is all they did receive troop aid numbers have noting to do with it could be 10 million still troop aid.


I am no supporter of the DPRK but if you really look at their position their choice to maintain this hostile stand is what has made them last this long.

In their eyes why should they trust any other government first Japan invaded and where completed tyrants to Korea then they left USA decide to cut the country in half interfering in other country's affairs. If the big boys as such left the Korean people alone Korea would be a different place today. everyone wants a united country. The North has no choice but to pump ever bit of cash into the Defense policy if they didn't USA or South Korea would have made moves years ago. I know people are starving but at the end of the day if United States pulled back from the 48 par and let the South Korean Army take over would be a foot in the right direction Kim is a clever guy {Studied in UK} and would see this as a acted of good fate it mite just turn down the heat a bit.

Also the United States have deploy undercover vessels into Norths sea which is an act of war, they have sent subs stealth fighters have lunched attacks against them, Bush said after Iraq we go into North Korea! all acts of aggression. The North is turtleing their defensive as such with the odd slash out to show they are a force to be reckon with.