North Korea orders missile units to prepare for war

Jonny7

Lockstep wrote: »

That's very true, any war with NK would be an absolute bloodbath. NK has an old fashioned military but it would start with a mass artillery barrage and probably the use of its germ warfare stockpiles. Plus its military is still heavily influenced by attrition warfare so the casualty rate on both sides would be catastrophic.

How suicidal are the NK dynasty feeling though?

They are essentially a group of sheltered fatcats - I strongly doubt they would want to enter into an unwinnable war where they may end up facing the gallows or worse.

It's the ultimate game of bluff, they seem pretty good at it, been perfecting it long enough

Solair

I think with all that US and South Korean radar and anti-missile equipment pointing at them they'll know if they launch so much as a kite!

You can also be sure that China's monitoring them *very* closely. China's not overly keen on the idea of overspill into its northern provinces like Jilin etc. It could result in millions of refugees spilling into one of China's industrial heartlands.

There are some very vital industrial and heavily populated parts of China quite close to the border with NK.

I know some people from that part of the world, and there are actually quite a lot of NK refugees in the region too who have made lives for themselves in China.

There's even concern that NK's missiles might be so low tech that they might miss entirely and land in China or something, or that it could cause major environmental damage.

I think in general China's relationship with NK is more a legacy of another era and that they're very wary of how unpredictable it is.

You also have to remember that South Korea's one of China's largest customers in the region and that any kind of all out war could cause massive economic problems in the region and worldwide, which would have a terrible impact on China.

So, the Chinese are very justifiably concerned.

I'd say Kim will be getting some rather strongly worded telephone calls from Beijing.

There's probably a flurry of diplomatic activity going on on the Chinese and Russian side to try and contain this.

From the North Korean perspective, they would also want to heed what China says, as if they really annoy the Chinese Government, they will probably end up creating at best a very frosty atmosphere in the future and potentially the loss of access to modern commodities, fuel and technology.

Sierra Oscar

Interesting to note the fundamental shift in rhetoric coming from North Korea following the regimes announcement that it is restarting its nuclear program. They are now not only talking about the program being in place to provide domestic electricity supply, but recent statements have laid it bare that the intentions of restarting the program are to provide electricity alongside a nuclear deterrent.

Lockstep

Jonny7 wrote: »

How suicidal are the NK dynasty feeling though?

They are essentially a group of sheltered fatcats - I strongly doubt they would want to enter into an unwinnable war where they may end up facing the gallows or worse.

It's the ultimate game of bluff, they seem pretty good at it, been perfecting it long enough

It's very hard to say. They'll do their best to maintain power and threatening to go to war is a good way of doing it (as it increases the liklihood of them getting more food aid to feed their starving population which they then claim is tribute paid to the Kims by terrified westerners)

That said, NK is getting increasingly unstable and it'll be difficult to maintain power with even soldiers going hungry. It's hard to know just what NK will do if they get desperate enough.

bbam

http://news.sky.com/story/1073563/n-korea-warns-of-merciless-nuclear-strike

Was just looking at this article where they warn of the war starting "today or tomorrow".. It got me thinking..

What's the chances that there is a bit of a game of distraction going on... jumping up and down shouting look at us we're really dangerous and getting ready to launch any minute... then bam ! some sort of dirty bomb hits a major US or EU city.

Surely these guys aren't stupid enough to think their missiles will be in the air long enough to hit anything !! One has to wonder what their thinking!!

Jonny7

Think of a child in a supermarket throwing a tantrum until his parents get him some sweets

That's as complex as it gets.

bbam

Jonny7 wrote: »

Think of a child in a supermarket throwing a tantrum until his parents get him some sweets

That's as complex as it gets.

Maybe, I hope so.
But sometimes these same children grow up and blow their parents heads off rather than throw another tantrum.

Amirani

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Interesting to note the fundamental shift in rhetoric coming from North Korea following the regimes announcement that it is restarting its nuclear program. They are now not only talking about the program being in place to provide domestic electricity supply, but recent statements have laid it bare that the intentions of restarting the program are to provide electricity alongside a nuclear deterrent.

Allowing that to happen would set a very dangerous precedent.

token56

The thing I'm having difficulty understanding is what is North Korea's end game strategy here. Most people would agree they dont actually want to go to war because they know they wont win one with the US and its allies. They will do damage for sure, but actually win it, nope.

It is a lot of posturing but for what? To restart their nuclear reactors? How does all this threatening and heightened security actually end with either side being mildly happy. The US wont be happy with any sort of nuclear work going on and rightly so but the powers at be in North Korea seem to want to make some sort of stand or act of defiance.

Would the US actually initiate anything if they do feel threatened enough of a nuclear attack. I know there is doubts over whether or not the dprk actually has these capabilities but surely it would only be a matter of time before they did if they are continued to be left alone with an active nuclear reactor. Will the US allow this?

Solair

It's probably a good thing that Obama's in the Whitehouse rather than GW Bush.

I always got the impression Bush was itching to press that big red button. Obama's a lot more calm and strategic.

I'd say the Obama approach is more likely to be to use any diplomatic channels, talk to China and see if they can cool him down a bit, put in the missile defence systems and try to contain the situation rather than go in all guns blazing and potentially create a disaster out of a crisis.

rdubz

token56 wrote: »

The thing I'm having difficulty understanding is what is North Korea's end game strategy here. Most people would agree they dont actually want to go to war because they know they wont win one with the US and its allies. They will do damage for sure, but actually win it, nope.

It is a lot of posturing but for what? To restart their nuclear reactors? How does all this threatening and heightened security actually end with either side being mildly happy. The US wont be happy with any sort of nuclear work going on and rightly so but the powers at be in North Korea seem to want to make some sort of stand or act of defiance.

Would the US actually initiate anything if they do feel threatened enough of a nuclear attack. I know there is doubts over whether or not the dprk actually has these capabilities but surely it would only be a matter of time before they did if they are continued to be left alone with an active nuclear reactor. Will the US allow this?

Not that I agree with North Korea,but who in you're opinion gave the US the right to govern any country and make decisions on how it should or shouldn't be run."The US won't be happy"(Who cares) and "Will the US allow this"(What gives them the right not to allow it)

walshb

NK isn' just any country. It's quite mad, quite rogue, and very unstable. I am all for allowing countries to rule themselves, but some countries pose too much danger to those close by. These countries need real monitoring. BTW, there will never be any semblance of stability as long as Korea is divided.

bbam

rdubz wrote: »

Not that I agree with North Korea,but who in you're opinion gave the US the right to govern any country and make decisions on how it should or shouldn't be run."The US won't be happy"(Who cares) and "Will the US allow this"(What gives them the right not to allow it)

This is always going to be a hard point to reconsile..

One would think that the UN rather than the US would be in a strong position to keep control on rogue states like NK, but alas the UN seems to be little more than a talking shop..

I don't want the US to be the global police force, the result is that areas of oil production, or those like NK who threaten the US will be policed and little else would matter..

Partizan

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-dangers-of-war-what-is-behind-the-us-north-korea-conflict/5329307

Excellent article that gives a real insight into what is going on in the Korean Peninsula. The US imperialist war mongering should not come as a surprise to anyone. The DPRK has for the last 60 years, has been seeking a peaceful reunification of Korea and an exit of all foreign troops from the Korean Peninsula.

Solair

Partizan wrote: »

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-dangers-of-war-what-is-behind-the-us-north-korea-conflict/5329307

Excellent article that gives a real insight into what is going on in the Korean Peninsula. The US imperialist war mongering should not come as a surprise to anyone. The DPRK has for the last 60 years, has been seeking a peaceful reunification of Korea and an exit of all foreign troops from the Korean Peninsula.

Peaceful reunification on what terms though? That everyone agrees to wind up South Korean democracy and accept totalitarian rule by the Kim family ?!

I agree Korea would be better off reunified, but it would have to do so with at least the same standards of democracy and human rights etc that apply in South Korea today.

Partizan

bbam wrote: »

This is always going to be a hard point to reconsile..

One would think that the UN rather than the US would be in a strong position to keep control on rogue states like NK, but alas the UN seems to be little more than a talking shop..

I don't want the US to be the global police force, the result is that areas of oil production, or those like NK who threaten the US will be policed and little else would matter..

The US is the biggest rogue state on the international stage. Unlike the DPRK, they have sent their armies half way around the world to invade them and called untold death and misery onto millions of people. Just ask the Vietnamese and Iraqis for their experience of US 'democracy' and 'freedom'.

Partizan

Solair wrote: »

Peaceful reunification on what terms though? That everyone agrees to wind up South Korean democracy and accept totalitarian rule by the Kim family ?!

Peaceful unification on the terms of the Korean people not the US. Have you even read the article?

Partizan

walshb wrote: »

NK isn' just any country. It's quite mad, quite rogue, and very unstable. I am all for allowing countries to rule themselves, but some countries pose too much danger to those close by. These countries need real monitoring. BTW, there will never be any sembalnce of stability as long as Korea is divided.

What was the US invasion of Iraq then? Was that justified in your mind?

Solair

Partizan wrote: »

Peaceful unification on the terms of the Korean people not the US. Have you even read the article?

Yeah I have, but it doesn't really address how you'd unify a totalitarian, brutal dictatorship and a modern, liberal democracy.

The US and Soviet Roles in Korea were pretty horrendous in terms of what's been left since the Korean war.

However, none of the macro-geopolitical stuff justifies how North Korea behaves towards its own people.

You could be angry about the US' involvement in Korea without all the brutality, torture, prison camps and complete lack of freedom.

From what I've read, heard from (I met several North Korean refugees) and seen about North Korea, it makes East Germany look like Disneyland.

I don't think you can excuse the horrors that Kim & co have inflicted on their own people by talking about US or Soviet actions during the Korean war. They are two very seperate wrongs.

Lots of other countries have been invaded, been the subject of all sorts of wars, and did not then turn into brutal, totalitarian dictatorships.

I'd love to see Korea restored to being a united country on the people of Korea's terms, but I don't think that's likely to happen when you've got such an oppressive regime to the north. It makes German reunification seem like a cakewalk in comparison.

theUbiq

The UN are useless, they couldn't stop the american invasion (slaughter) of Iraq... I also agree that the yanks should mind their own business. It's their aggressive behaviour, manouvres with the South Koreans, that's causing the North Koreans to get so upset. Can't anyone else see this?

If the US stop interfering this situation ends so why don't they stop interfering? Surely they should be more concerned with the 40\50 million people living below the poverty line in America?

Partizan

Solair wrote: »

Yeah I have, but it doesn't really address how you'd unify a totalitarian, brutal dictatorship and a modern, liberal democracy.

The US and Soviet Roles in Korea were pretty horrendous in terms of what's been left since the Korean war.

However, none of the macro-geopolitical stuff justifies how North Korea behaves towards its own people.

You could be angry about the US' involvement in Korea without all the brutality, torture, prison camps and complete lack of freedom.

From what I've read, heard from (I met several North Korean refugees) and seen about North Korea, it makes East Germany look like Disneyland.

I believe the two Koreas would come to an agreed solution without any outside interference. Nobody is justifying the behavour of both regimes on the Peninsula, however the US is in no position whatsoever to lecture the DPRK on human rights when you have had Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq with Abu Ghraib and Gitmo not to mention US support for regimes who commit appalling human rights abuses.

Partizan

theUbiq wrote: »

The UN are useless, they couldn't stop the american invasion (slaughter) of Iraq... I also agree that the yanks should mind their own business. It's their aggressive behaviour, manouvres with the South Koreans, that's causing the North Koreans to get so upset. Can't anyone else see this?

If the US stop interfering this situation ends so why don't they stop interfering? Surely they should be more concerned with the 40\50 million people living below the poverty line in America?

Exactly. The recent upsurge of US and ROK military exercises in the vicinity has caused DPRK to act defensively. How would the US react if the armed forces of PRC and DPRK began conducting military exercises in the Gulf of Mexico?

Gatling

Oh great the tree hugging liberal anti American's have found the thread

Partizan

Gatling wrote: »

Oh great the tree hugging liberal anti American's have found the thread

Its not anti-American to point out the gross hypocrisy of US Foreign Policy.

Solair

From what I gather, lots of South Koreans would be delighted to see a unified Korea again, but I don't think they're going to be prepared to give up their democratic freedoms, liberal society and economic prosperity to achieve that.

The North Korean regime would have to replace itself with a liberal democracy first and I can't really see that happening anytime soon.

It's a mess to put it mildly.

bbam

Partizan wrote: »

The US is the biggest rogue state on the international stage. Unlike the DPRK, they have sent their armies half way around the world to invade them and called untold death and misery onto millions of people. Just ask the Vietnamese and Iraqis for their experience of US 'democracy' and 'freedom'.

I really don't think this thread is the place for the " US are the root of all evil" stuff.. And i dont want to be associated with that sentiment.

My point was that while I don't like the idea of them being world police, the fact remains that they do keep guys like young Kim there under some control..

books4sale

Solair wrote: »

It's a mess to put it mildly.

What do you do in the case of a mess? Yeah ......clean house!

This has been going on +50 years and it just seems to be getting worse. Someone needs to go in and get rid of this crackpot and start afresh.

Not going to end happen though.

theUbiq

Gatling wrote: »

Oh great the tree hugging liberal anti American's have found the thread

Tree hugging? No. Anti American? Yes.... particularly where their foreign policy is concerned.

token56

rdubz wrote: »

Not that I agree with North Korea,but who in you're opinion gave the US the right to govern any country and make decisions on how it should or shouldn't be run."The US won't be happy"(Who cares) and "Will the US allow this"(What gives them the right not to allow it)

Nobody can give the US those rights but the fact of the matter is that North Korea are directly threatening them so they have a genuine reason to care about how the country is run, who is running it and what their capabilities are.

The US of course are no saints in this, they have shown their own aggression recently and have vested interests far beyond their own security in terms of the impact any sort of war would have on its economy. Not just because of the its trade relations with South Korea and Japan but the US and China's economys are quite entwined also.

So rightly/wrongly the US are the ones taking centre stage with North Korea and who is going to stop them, China? Russia? Neither want to engage in any sort of military conflict with the US. Even if there was military conflict between the US and North Korea I doubt in China would even uphold its end of the Sino agreement between themselves and North Korea.

It's in everyone's best interest that no war break outs, particularly one with the possibility of nuclear arms, and this is exactly what North Korea are threatening. So if the US are going to be the ones to take upon themselves to stop this ever happening then so be it, because not only are they one of the only countries that have the military power to have such an influence but the only ones willing to take the risk and go toe to toe with them so to speak.

theUbiq

token56 wrote: »

Nobody can give the US those rights but the fact of the matter is that North Korea are directly threatening them so they have a genuine reason to care about how the country is run, who is running it and what their capabilities are.

The US of course are no saints in this, they have shown their own aggression recently and have vested interests far beyond their own security in terms of the impact any sort of war would have on its economy. Not just because of the its trade relations with South Korea and Japan but the US and China's economys are quite entwined also.

So rightly/wrongly the US are the ones taking centre stage with North Korea and who is going to stop them, China? Russia? Neither want to engage in any sort of military conflict with the US. Even if there was military conflict between the US and North Korea I doubt in China would even uphold its end of the Sino agreement between themselves and North Korea.

It's in everyone's best interest that no war break outs, particularly one with the possibility of nuclear arms, and this is exactly what North Korea are threatening. So if the US are going to be the ones to take upon themselves to stop this ever happening then so be it, because not only are they one of the only countries that have the military power to have such an influence but the only ones willing to take the risk and go toe to toe with them so to speak.

But why are the North Koreans behaving like this? Because the warmongers from America have an increasingly heavy military presence around the North Korean peninsula. So, if the yanks wanna fix this they simply **** off. They don't need to fly stealth bombers over the country... or practice manouvres with the South Koreans.

nelly17

Personally I still think its all bluster coming from N.K

token56

theUbiq wrote: »

But why are the North Koreans behaving like this? Because the warmongers from America have an increasingly heavy military presence around the North Korean peninsula. So, if the yanks wanna fix this they simply **** off. They don't need to fly stealth bombers over the country... or practice manouvres with the South Koreans.

The US's military presence there is the biggest deterrant to the North starting a war with South Korea as ultimately the North does want unification. The UN knows this, every other developed country knows this and are ok with the US playing top dog/the big bully (whatever way you want to look at it) because south korea, and japan which would get dragged in, have become significant economic players in the world. Is this the best way for things to be, probably not, but is the UN going to step in and tell the US to back off we'll put in peace keeping troops and handle it from here, absolutely not. They dont want that trouble. There is enough other conflict in the world for them to be handling without them having to step in this mess. As I said no body is going to tell the US to back off, other than possible China, and whether we like it or not they are doing everyone a favour. Do you really think if North Korea is left to their own devices everything on that peninsula will be smooth sailing?

Jonny7

Partizan wrote: »

I believe the two Koreas would come to an agreed solution without any outside interference. Nobody is justifying the behavour of both regimes on the Peninsula

Aggressive Soviet era dictatorship governed like a cult constantly threatens the entire region on an almost daily basis ..

"It's someone else's fault."

Nice try Kim Jong-Un

SamHarris

AllthingsCP wrote: »

Do you live in the United States? Are you looking for a green card to live their.
If not get off the bandwagon open your eyes.

Neither USSR or USA or even NATO had the right to interfere.

Would you believe me if i told you that United States also had plans for war with Britain and Canada in the 30's

NATO? What?

The UN were involved, yes, but if you didnt even know that then the extent of your ignorance is revealed for all to see.

If you wish to see the 'intentions' of the US following the war, it is pretty easy to see them in states where other powers did not have a massive say.

West Europe after the war, rebuilt through the US, Japan quickly becoming a stable and contributory member of the international system, going on to be one of the most prosperous states on Earth. The same can be said for West Germany.

We can then compare S Korea to N Korea today or at any time throughout their sad history. Korea as a whole would almost certainly be on the long list of totalitarian and/or near destroyed states that include Japan and W. Germany (now Germany) that within years became plutocratic, democratic, economically, socially and technologically advanced as a direct result of US policy were it not for the clear intervention of other powers (in this case as in many others Soviet).

Really the case studies speak for themselves in this regard, you can create your own narrative using (at best) tiny little pieces of "truth" so that world history better fits your ideological standpoint, but for those of us interested in using evidence to reach the most likely conclusion, this stories pretty clear.

On a broader note - the Anti Americanism around the world is actually a very interesting phenomena that, much research has been done into. Anecdotaly I can say without a doubt that those that are near obsessive about its evil intentions, if you dig even a bit beneath the surface, often show the five major signs of an inferiority complex. Go on and look them up, you will even see it often at play on radio. Its very basic psychology behind feeling alienated from the successful and powerful either by nation or by politics. The mind fills in the rest unless one is extremly careful.

On the ACTUAL TOPIC -

Im surprised at how laisez faire people have become about this entire thing but they HAVE NUKES. Not to mention NERVE GAS and engineered pathogens. Its because, whether people will admit it or not, the US' steam rolling Iraq in the first Gulf War, despite the media having piped on about how hardened and veteran they were, with the latest Soviet Equipment and third biggest professional army in the world - has put the idea culturally in our minds that ever war is a forgone conclusion quickly, with damage very limited geographically. They think worst case scenario - Iraq. But Saddam had not used his CS gas (against the Americans, Kurds were a ok) in the first gulf war. And the aftermath is what is going to be really destabilizing.
N Korea are getting mighty close to saying something the US will HAVE to react on. If, somehow, a US military base is hit with a nuke in a weeks time there will be more than enough of a political fallout against the democrats to wash the next presidency. People in power in the US as Korea keeps talking are starting to tihnk of this... Not to mention the actual damage such an attack will leave behind. What Im saying is the THREAT of the action is becoming so severe somebody may well act.

super_furry

Does anyone really believe this will go past rhetoric?

Jonny7

theUbiq wrote: »

But why are the North Koreans behaving like this? Because the warmongers from America have an increasingly heavy military presence around the North Korean peninsula. So, if the yanks wanna fix this they simply **** off. They don't need to fly stealth bombers over the country... or practice manouvres with the South Koreans.

The North Koreans are behaving like this because their only ally in the region China (along with the US) have sanctioned them over their most recent nuclear test.

By threatening war and escalating, they want to bring these countries to the table and win concessions.

The elite in Pyongyang need their luxuries and the people of North Korea badly need food, this is how they do business. The world tacitly supports this nasty regime because war is a worse alternative for everyone.

****ty situation.

SamHarris

AllthingsCP wrote: »

Well of course North Korea would eventually lose compared to a better infrastructural based country. But if China did side with NK then could be a diffrent story and mite play out like the 1950's.

My point is to tell people not to undermined NK ability to fight a war.

In conventional terms China is not in the same league as the US, even if they were willing to give the Koreans their best technology to fight them.

Times have changed greatly since the first Korean War or Vietnam - at that point there was only so much advantage one man could have over another, squad level combat was incredibly balanced despite the US' obvious advantages in quality in nearly all regards.

The way all US combat systems are integrated now means that is not the case any more, by a long shot. Combined arms in close proximity is the norm. Conventionally, we are looking at a walk over a-la Iraq (in the actual war stages of the 'war'). Indeed, Iraq wass far better equipped than NK is now. What makes it scarier is (aagain) the aftermath, but even more than that the CONFIRMED stockpiles of not just nukes but other non conventional, incredibly deadly weapons.

SamHarris

token56 wrote: »

The thing I'm having difficulty understanding is what is North Korea's end game strategy here. Most people would agree they dont actually want to go to war because they know they wont win one with the US and its allies. They will do damage for sure, but actually win it, nope.

It is a lot of posturing but for what? To restart their nuclear reactors? How does all this threatening and heightened security actually end with either side being mildly happy. The US wont be happy with any sort of nuclear work going on and rightly so but the powers at be in North Korea seem to want to make some sort of stand or act of defiance.

Would the US actually initiate anything if they do feel threatened enough of a nuclear attack. I know there is doubts over whether or not the dprk actually has these capabilities but surely it would only be a matter of time before they did if they are continued to be left alone with an active nuclear reactor. Will the US allow this?

Actually its incredible this didnt come up, because its incredibly pertinent, however if we can all cast our minds back a few years ago the US became one of the States, along with India (that I know for sure of), that has a nuclear weapon but has enshrined in law a "No first strike" order with these weapons.

That is to say for anybody, even the president to now have legal authority to launch a nuke another power must have used one, or chemical or biological weapons. \

I only remmeber because Sarah Palin went on a rant about the US now being the kid in school saying "punch me, I wont punch you back" which is patent bull****.

walshb

Partizan wrote: »

What was the US invasion of Iraq then? Was that justified in your mind?

That invasion has caused nothing but misery and death and pain. Pointless invasion, and a serious waste of human life.

WhatNowForUs?

Gatling wrote: »

Oh great the tree hugging liberal anti American's have found the thread

Don't blame the liberals on this. There are plenty of us who agree with the U.S. actions or lack of actions on this one.

Jonny7

SamHarris wrote: »

On the ACTUAL TOPIC -

Im surprised at how laisez faire people have become about this entire thing but they HAVE NUKES. Not to mention NERVE GAS and engineered pathogens. Its because, whether people will admit it or not, the US' steam rolling Iraq in the first Gulf War, despite the media having piped on about how hardened and veteran they were, with the latest Soviet Equipment and third biggest professional army in the world - has put the idea culturally in our minds that ever war is a forgone conclusion quickly, with damage very limited geographically. They think worst case scenario - Iraq. But Saddam had not used his CS gas (against the Americans, Kurds were a ok) in the first gulf war. And the aftermath is what is going to be really destabilizing.
N Korea are getting mighty close to saying something the US will HAVE to react on. If, somehow, a US military base is hit with a nuke in a weeks time there will be more than enough of a political fallout against the democrats to wash the next presidency. People in power in the US as Korea keeps talking are starting to tihnk of this... Not to mention the actual damage such an attack will leave behind. What Im saying is the THREAT of the action is becoming so severe somebody may well act.

The NK people may be heavily brainwashed - but the leadership, headed by a Western educated kid, are not stupid.

They know they'll be either killed or taken to trial should the situation escalate out of control into a full scale war.

AllthingsCP

theUbiq wrote: »

The UN are useless, they couldn't stop the american invasion (slaughter) of Iraq... I also agree that the yanks should mind their own business. It's their aggressive behaviour, manouvres with the South Koreans, that's causing the North Koreans to get so upset. Can't anyone else see this?

If the US stop interfering this situation ends so why don't they stop interfering? Surely they should be more concerned with the 40\50 million people living below the poverty line in America?

This what i am trying to tell people.

.
Actually, NATO (The North Atlantic Treaty Organization) came into being on April 4, 1949, so it did exist during the Korean War. NATO was an organization designed to provide mutual assistance in case of war in the areas around the North Atlantic, Some of the NATO members did participate in the Korean War, just not under the auspices of NATO rather then naming them all i just said NATO,

walshb

If the U.S. suddenly pulled out (stopped interfering) and did nothing how does anyone think all would be okay? No chance that NK would invade SK aggressively?

AllthingsCP

walshb wrote: »

If the U.S. suddenly pulled out (stopped interfering) and did nothing how does anyone think all would be okay? No chance that NK would invade SK aggressively?

What happened in the 50's is the root, America and USSR should not have interfered,

NK of SK one would have won bringing the country under one flag rather the two, This is a problem the Americans have seen many times over the last few years, with the Taliban and other factions they trained to carry out their little games that back fired.

token56

SamHarris wrote: »

Actually its incredible this didnt come up, because its incredibly pertinent, however if we can all cast our minds back a few years ago the US became one of the States, along with India (that I know for sure of), that has a nuclear weapon but has enshrined in law a "No first strike" order with these weapons.

Did not actually know this, thanks.

Thinking about it more the biggest player here is actually China, outside of the military posturing it is the only country with the political influence in North Korea to tell them to reign it in a bit a and yet could also influence the US to do the same. I dont for a second think the US will ever accept an order off China but if they come to the US saying, listen things are getting out of control, we'll convince NK to ease back no nuclear reactor, you just do the same and no more flying stealth bombers over their air space please, the US will realise it's in their best interest to do so. NK know China are their closest thing to an alley and if they push hard enough NK will have to play ball. I know NK are not exactly happy with the sanctions China have already gone along with but they would hardly be willing to risk all out war. I do think China's influence is the only way this stops becoming either another cold war or turning into actual military conflict.

Conmaicne Mara

NK moving mobile missile launcher to their East coast. If they plan a test over Japan methinks their big firework could get itself shot down.

SamHarris

Jonny7 wrote: »

The NK people may be heavily brainwashed - but the leadership, headed by a Western educated kid, are not stupid.

They know they'll be either killed or taken to trial should the situation escalate out of control into a full scale war.

Which is why I believe the Wests strategy must change. In this kind of regime the only people that matter are at the very top. It is these people who must be targeted for effect.

an article I read recently described it beautifully, that you might be interested in.

After some digging I present to you - http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-blog/2013/04/02/how-to-deter-north-korea-personal-deterrence/?fb_action_ids=10152671794390401&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582

SamHarris

I think its time we all just ignored the "IF 60 YEARS AGO THE US HAD JUST LET NORTH KOREA DOUBLE IN SIZE AND MISERY NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING!" character as the waste of thread space it is. It's not only clear anti-Americanism to the point of embracing outright immorality, it is irrelevant. If you want to start a time machine thread, go ahead. Im sure you will get a lot of takers for the one that actually INCREASES the number of people living under the most despotic regime on earth.

SamHarris

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

NK moving mobile missile launcher to their East coast. If they plan a test over Japan methinks their big firework could get itself shot down.

Which they will then present to their populace as a further causus beli rather than a perfectly legitimate self defence. Whether its building to a "See! Our might scared off the American pig dog! SUPPOSEDLY the greatest military power that ever existed!" or all out war remains to be seen.

trancecivic

walshb wrote: »

That invasion has caused nothing but misery and death and pain. Pointless invasion, and a serious waste of human life.

of course it was justified