Cameron to curb welfare entitlements for migrants - Should Ireland follow suit?

Gatling

greendom wrote: »

Doesn't make it the right thing. There's probably a majority in both countries who would favour Capital Punishment for example.

In your opinion what is right way ,

What happens when the system collapse's ,

greendom

Gatling wrote: »

In your opinion what is right way ,

What happens when the system collapse's ,

If the eco-political system was in any danger of collapsing, the removal of immigrants would make little or no difference. They're not the cause of the current situation, but like so many others they are suffering the effects of it.

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

In your opinion what is right way ,

What happens when the system collapse's ,

Not that you'd be exaggerating, or anything.....

CommanderC

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Not if you are the poor sap getting up at the crack of dawn every morning to pay your own mortgage and their welfare to boot.

The bang eh negative equity of ye.

WayneMolloy

Gatling wrote: »

Capital Punishment,

We a referendum on whether or not to fully abolish capital punishment here about ten years ago. It passed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

Gatling

Nodin wrote: »

Not that you'd be exaggerating, or anything.....

Its a question

Gatling

WayneMolloy wrote: »

We a referendum on whether or not to fully abolish capital punishment here about ten years ago. It passed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

???

What's this got to do with capital punishment

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

Its a question

Yep. Based on a presumption - "When the system collapse's ,"

Ryu Hayabusa

Stop them entering the country and send the leeching foreigners home, they contribute nothing to this country, just use our money

Gatling

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. Based on a presumption - "When the system collapse's ,"

Yes I'm waiting ,

What if ,

Nodin

Ryu Hayabusa wrote: »

Stop them entering the country and send the leeching foreigners home, they contribute nothing to this country, just use our money

Thank you for your amazing insight.

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

Yes I'm waiting ,

What if ,

Mohawked cannibal biker tribes, I'd guess.

Gatling

Nodin wrote: »

Mohawked cannibal biker tribes, I'd guess.

Better digout my leathers and chains

WayneMolloy

Gatling wrote: »

???

What's this got to do with capital punishment

You brought it up!

We fully abolished capital punishment by referendum in 2001. The link went into a bit more detail.

Gatling

WayneMolloy wrote: »

You brought it up!

We fully abolished capital punishment by referendum in 2001. The link went into a bit more detail.

Don't remember that at all on this thread

Push Pop

WayneMolloy wrote: »

All the stats come from the cso and environs.ie

Thats not ill informed rhetoric, buddy. Thats using offical sites and statistics to back up my points. I have not lied, as that would mean that I plucked the figures out of thin air - I havent.

If you migrate to a new country, the onus is on you to provide for yourself. Not the new country. If you cant pay your way, look for a higher paid position. If that doesnt look like being bearing fruition, and you are about to become a burden on the state - its ryanair time.

And its not normal to have 30, 000 non irish families on the housing list, 20-25 percent of eastern europeans on the dooe, near 40 percent of our largest african minority on the dole and 70 nationalities waiting for free housing in f*cking fingal.

If thats perfectly normal, id hate to see it when it becomes an issue!

That's what I've asked already in this thread. At what level does it become an issue for people who don't see this as an issue?
What is the absolute number of non Irish welfare recipients we can handle when we can't afford to look after our own?

Gatling

greendom wrote: »

Doesn't make it the right thing. There's probably a majority in both countries who would favour Capital Punishment for example.

WayneMolloy wrote: »

You brought it up!

We fully abolished capital punishment by referendum in 2001. The link went into a bit more detail.

Gatling wrote: »

Don't remember that at all on this thread

Knew I didn't post about capital punishment

WayneMolloy

Gatling wrote: »

Knew I didn't post about capital punishment

Dont know what I was at there. Apologies.

crockholm

Are we going to return to the serious matter of chains,whips and mohawked bikers anytime soon?

Nodin

crockholm wrote: »

Are we going to return to the serious matter of chains,whips and mohawked bikers anytime soon?

Mulhuddart this summer

crockholm

Nodin wrote: »

Mulhuddart this summer

Then why was I thinking of "The Blue Oyster"?
repress,repress,repress

Gatling

What's my "mangerie' got to do with this :-) :-)

_Kaiser_

The OP and others similarly minded in this thread have a point.

Ireland has a massive debt and deficit to bear, and huge numbers of its citizens are unemployed and/or currently unemployable as their skills don't meet the change requirements for the jobs that are out there.

Now of course there are also those who don't WANT to work, and even in the "good times" didn't work - this is indeed a problem and definitely needs to be addressed. Either retrain/upskill or be limited to a bear minimum subsistence after say 5 years - ESPECIALLY if you're not even trying to find a job.

But equally, we as a nation are so afraid of appearing racist, and our leaders so insistent of being good EU citizens (you could argue we have a national inferiority complex really), that we become a very inviting target who those outside our borders who wish the abuse the system. If the UK does go ahead with this, we become the next "logical" choice for such people.

All the cries of racism/xenophobia and what not from some on this thread won't change that reality. It only serves to sufficiently muddy the waters and stall the process to the point of any progress on the issue grinding to a halt. We can't even debate this rationally without this crap starting as is evidenced by this very thread.

To me it seems pretty simple - if you want to/are forced to move abroad then you should be planning and expecting to work. If you find a job then fantastic and no problems. If you don't, you either look somewhere else or you go home - not expect that country's welfare system to support you.

The other problem we have here is that immigrants (in the main) make no effort to integrate into their new home. Instead many expect to simply be able to transplant their culture, religion wholesale - occasionally at the expense of the locals - and have their "right" to do so protected no less.

If I went to Germany in the morning, I'd be expected to work and learn the language. I'd also be expected to adapt to the local customs and laws. If I didn't do any of these things I don't expect I'd get very far and I would quite probably end up back here before long. That's not racist or xenophobic, it's just what's required to be a positive contributor to society.

But of course in Ireland we have to be "different" as usual so what happens is we get a system rife with abuse and corruption and just outright stupidity that benefits nobody in the end - especially not the citizens and taxpayers of the country who ultimately SHOULD be our first priority.

Nodin

crockholm wrote: »

Then why was I thinking of "The Blue Oyster"?
repress,repress,repress

Mohhawked cannibal biker tribes and "The Blue Oyster" are, evidently, not mutually exclusive. That being said, being brought out for dinner might not be a treat.

greendom

So say the OP and people of a similar persuasion get their way and immigrants who aren't working are no longer given benefits. Would it really make Ireland a better place ?

It owuld be a harder less caring place for me.

What savings would be made / I doubt it would even make a small dent in the current deficit.

IMO immigrants are just an easy target. Cameron is proposing this out of political expediency not out of economic reality. I don't know what the motives are of the OP and co but I don't think they can be justified from a financial perspective.

WayneMolloy

Push Pop wrote: »

That's what I've asked already in this thread. At what level does it become an issue for people who don't see this as an issue?
What is the absolute number of non Irish welfare recipients we can handle when we can't afford to look after our own?

They know it is an issue, its just one that they wish to ignore. Nobody is saying slam the door shut on those that want to come here and have a stab at finding some work or chuck out those who are here and paying their own way.

But no non Irish national should be in receipt of welfare for more than six months and as far as housing seventy different nationalities in Fingal goes, well, thats madness.

Anyway lads, we will do what we do best and plant our heads in the sand. When the UK starts cutting down on foreign nationals receiving welfare, we shall get a tourism bump.

Just not the type Bord Failte and the department of social protection like.

WayneMolloy

greendom wrote: »

So say the OP and people of a similar persuasion get their way and immigrants who aren't working are no longer given benefits. Would it really make Ireland a better place ?

It owuld be a harder less caring place for me.

What savings would be made / I doubt it would even make a small dent in the current deficit.

IMO immigrants are just an easy target. Cameron is proposing this out of political expediency not out of economic reality. I don't know what the motives are of the OP and co but I don't think they can be justified from a financial perspective.

We are cutting essential services left, right and centre. If some foreign lad living off the state gets the hump if we cut his scratch, big deal. Should be entitled to six months, as per EU law, and no more. We got to trim the fat and protect our own citizens, first.

That may sound harsh and unfriendly to you, but we live in harsh times.

WayneMolloy

WayneMolloy wrote: »

We are cutting essential services left, right and centre. If some foreign lad living off the state gets the hump if we cut his scratch, big deal. Should be entitled to six months, as per EU law, and no more. We got to trim the fat and protect our own citizens, first.

That may sound harsh and unfriendly to you, but we live in harsh times.

You're making a massive assumption here that immigrants are a net drain on our economy. You have no facts to back this up. This is simply your uninformed opinion being dressed up as fact.

Death and Taxes

Ryu Hayabusa wrote: »

Stop them entering the country and send the leeching foreigners home, they contribute nothing to this country, just use our money

Yea out with dem forreners
lets start by expelling:
Google
Ebay
Paypal
Microsoft
Intel
Facebook
Bleedin leeches contributin nuttin to dis country

Nodin

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Anyway lads, we will do what we do best and plant our heads in the sand. When the UK starts cutting down on foreign nationals receiving welfare, we shall get a tourism bump.

Just not the type Bord Failte and the department of social protection like.

You can't arrive and claim, ffs.

Logical_Bear

Ryu Hayabusa wrote: »

Stop them entering the country and send the leeching foreigners home, they contribute nothing to this country, just use our money

lol at your location

Gatling

Nodin wrote: »

You can't arrive and claim, ffs.

That's complete fiction its already been proven on this thread multiple times,

And habitual residence is already a shambles

WayneMolloy

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You're making a massive assumption here that immigrants are a net drain on our economy. You have no facts to back this up. This is simply your uninformed opinion being dressed up as fact.

I never said they were a net drain as a whole. But a sizeable minority of them are.

I am still waiting for you to provide links to back up your claims btw. Bit rich to be sniping about me not validqting my claims, when I have, yet you havent. Even though you have been asked to, three times now.

ShadowHearth

I love this...

I am foreigner and I live here about 8 years. I had work almost every single day in 8 years.
If I would lose job, I would think it is only fair for me to be able to claim dole. I worked and payed taxes.
Some people forget that for a good part of foreigners Ireland is a main home. For example I would feel foreigner now in the country I came from. The only thing that I have left from that country is passport. If Irish people will decide to ship me back, just because I lost job, then it is almost death to me.

I don't know where people takes this, but foreigners cannot claim any benefits until they worked 2++ years legally in Ireland. There is no such thing where people come to Ireland just to claim benefits. Unless I don't know the loop holes or special treatment for some other countries.

mattjack

Gatling wrote: »

That's complete fiction its already been proven on this thread multiple times,

And habitual residence is already a shambles

Mr Gatling sir , drunk and all as I am , I can assure you that the HRC is not a shambles , this is the one issue that I regularly come up against at work and its one I dread.

I have from time to time had to tell people that I feel they will never pass HRC and my friend that's difficult .I'm , in effect , saying to them that they will not receive welfare.

Gatling

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I love this...

I am foreigner and I live here about 8 years. I had work almost every single day in 8 years.
If I would lose job, I would think it is only fair for me to be able to claim dole. I worked and payed taxes.
Some people forget that for a good part of foreigners Ireland is a main home. For example I would feel foreigner now in the country I came from. The only thing that I have left from that country is passport. If Irish people will decide to ship me back, just because I lost job, then it is almost death to me.

I don't know where people takes this, but foreigners cannot claim any benefits until they worked 2++ years legally in Ireland. There is no such thing where people come to Ireland just to claim benefits. Unless I don't know the loop holes or special treatment for some other countries.

The habitual residence rule of having to be legally employed 2 years isn't working thousands claiming welfare on a monthly basis wouldn't pass the criteria but yet **** happens ,

As stated its not an issue with people living and working here ,its the lifetime benifit seekers who come here for one reason only

Gatling

mattjack wrote: »

Mr Gatling sir , drunk and all as I am , I can assure you that the HRC is not a shambles , this is the one issue that I regularly come up against at work and its one I dread.

I have from time to time had to tell people that I feel they will never pass HRC and my friend that's difficult .I'm , in effect , saying to them that they will not receive welfare.

My neighbours don't meet the criteria 3 different people all worked around 7months are now unemployed ,all receive social welfare payments and rent allowance ,
They are the first to say it ,there getting supported along with many others who don't meet the HRC and yet I've seen EU national's at a soup kitchen to get a hot meal because they get no help from the state the system is flawed badly flawed

ShadowHearth

Gatling wrote: »

My neighbours don't meet the criteria 3 different people all worked around 7months are now unemployed ,all receive social welfare payments and rent allowance ,
They are the first to say it ,there getting supported along with many others who don't meet the HRC and yet I've seen EU national's at a soup kitchen to get a hot meal because they get no help from the state the system is flawed badly flawed

Well I personally think that the system itself needs to be enforced properly or changed, then blindly aiming at foreigners. Both parties are doing it with great success ( long term unemployment I mean ).

What Cameron is ding is just getting some good old attention. In one or another form it is always fun and easy to blame a foreigner for something bad that happens.

mattjack

Gatling wrote: »

The habitual residence rule of having to be legally employed 2 years isn't working thousands claiming welfare on a monthly basis wouldn't pass the criteria but yet **** happens ,

As stated its not an issue with people living and working here ,its the lifetime benifit seekers who come here for one reason only

Its not a rule or law , its not even an Irish or European law , its based on proving fact based around a series of factors that allow you pass its condition .

Its both wide and vague in its factors too.

Length and continuity of residence here and in the EU
Your employment history and centre of interest
Your plans to live in Ireland from your evidence that you provide *

* that's the biggie , providing evidence from your past and proving your future
plans....

mattjack

Gatling wrote: »

My neighbours don't meet the criteria 3 different people all worked around 7months are now unemployed ,all receive social welfare payments and rent allowance ,
They are the first to say it ,there getting supported along with many others who don't meet the HRC and yet I've seen EU national's at a soup kitchen to get a hot meal because they get no help from the state the system is flawed badly flawed

How do you know these people at soup kitchens are EU nationals , how do you know they get no help ? This is field I work in and I'm familiar with these envoironments.

Ok , to best of my knowledge , as far as I know to get certain welfare payments you need to satisfy HRC .

But I accept and believe what you say and its food for thought for me.

Gatling

[quote="mattjack;83925385"
*[/B]
* that's the biggie , providing evidence from your past and proving your future
plans....[/quote]

Its seems for every say 5 that get refused under(hrc) 10 get accepted ,
When's the last time anybody has been removed from the state as an illegal immigrant or for over staying when the dont meet the criteria

mattjack

Gatling wrote: »

Its seems for every say 5 that get refused under(hrc) 10 get accepted ,
When's the last time anybody has been removed from the state as an illegal immigrant or for over staying when the dont meet the criteria

Anecdotal ? ,published statistic ? , your mate heard it down the pub ?

Gatling

mattjack wrote: »

How do you know these people at soup kitchens are EU nationals ,
But I accept and believe what you say and its food for thought for me.

Ive been to a soup kitchen / centre the majority of the people there for a warm meal were males ages 20-50 from ,a religious brother there told me most were polish,Latvians many living rough or squatting ,
ApparentlyThey can't Even get help to leave and go home ,
Its one of them situations that make you think and feel shame

Gatling

mattjack wrote: »

Anecdotal .

Option A please

mattjack

Gatling wrote: »

Ive been to a soup kitchen / centre the majority of the people there for a warm meal were males ages 20-50 from ,a religious brother there told me most were polish,Latvians many living rough or squatting ,
ApparentlyThey can't Even get help to leave and go home ,
Its one of them situations that make you think and feel shame

Ah , Brother Lukes , the Capuchins .I know it well.
Actually whoever told you they can't get home is misinformed , there's a charity called Baraca , who helps Polish and others get home.

mikemac1

Gatling wrote: »

Ive been to a soup kitchen / centre the majority of the people there for a warm meal were males ages 20-50 from ,a religious brother there told me most were polish,Latvians many living rough or squatting ,
ApparentlyThey can't Even get help to leave and go home ,
Its one of them situations that make you think and feel shame

They can get help to go home

http://www.ria.gov.ie/en/RIA/Pages/AC12
Reception and Integration Agency

The role of RIA under this scheme is to provide voluntary transport back to their home State for destitute AC12 nationals. If absolutely necessary, and subject to availability of accommodation, RIA will accommodate the person(s) concerned for one or two nights in its designated Dublin centre and provide them with transport home as soon as practicable.

Those who have previously availed of the scheme will not be repatriated a second time, while those who fail to take a flight arranged for them will not be offered a second flight.

The 25 or so who lived on the roundabout in Ballymun in Dublin were flown home. Some came back though

Gatling

mattjack wrote: »

there's a charity called Baraca , who helps Polish and others get home.

That I wasn't aware of

mattjack

Gatling wrote: »

That I wasn't aware of

There ya go , sir.

There are people who abuse welfare , that's an absolute and some points do need to be addressed particularly around rent supplement and accessing welfare etc .
Its of interest to me , I work in the field and our welfare system is so convoluted and ponderous it just wrecks your head sometimes , misinformation and lack of knowledge often seem to be the order of the day sometimes and that's from personal experience .

WayneMolloy

mattjack wrote: »

There ya go , sir.

There are people who abuse welfare , that's an absolute and some points do need to be addressed particularly around rent supplement and accessing welfare etc .
Its of interest to me , I work in the field and our welfare system is so convoluted and ponderous it just wrecks your head sometimes , misinformation and lack of knowledge often seem to be the order of the day sometimes and that's from personal experience .

Would it be true to say that it depends on the welfare officer processing the claim? One may be extremely stringent, whilst the next may have a more laissez faire attitude to the guidelines?

Gatling

mattjack wrote: »

There ya go , sir.

There are people who abuse welfare , that's an absolute and some points do need to be addressed particularly around rent supplement and accessing welfare etc .
Its of interest to me , I work in the field and our welfare system is so convoluted and ponderous it just wrecks your head sometimes , misinformation and lack of knowledge often seem to be the order of the day sometimes and that's from personal experience .

The system is one Giant contradiction