Cameron to curb welfare entitlements for migrants - Should Ireland follow suit?

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

That's complete fiction its already been proven on this thread multiple times,

No, it has not. Anecdotes prove SFA.

WayneMolloy

Nodin wrote: »

No, it has not. Anecdotes prove SFA.

Ok, Nodin. Spent about ten or so minutes googling the subject and stumbled across this thread on another forum. On a website that was set up to help immigrants - http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=129187

Long story short, a non Irish lad has been in Ireland for four weeks - hes already signed up for jobseekers allowance and a medical card. Hes now in the process of getting his missus and his nipper a visa.

Still believe you cant just land here and sign on?

WayneMolloy

mattjack wrote: »

There ya go , sir.

There are people who abuse welfare , that's an absolute and some points do need to be addressed particularly around rent supplement and accessing welfare etc .
Its of interest to me , I work in the field and our welfare system is so convoluted and ponderous it just wrecks your head sometimes , misinformation and lack of knowledge often seem to be the order of the day sometimes and that's from personal experience .

I read an article recently that tore strips out of Irish backpackers in Australia recenty, due to the fact some of them were availing of the homeless charities that provide free food. The Irish, all couple of dozen of them, were more or less told to f*ck off, go home and if we have any food left over then you may have it.

This was in a national paper.

Compare and contrast with here.

Nodin

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Ok, Nodin. Spent about ten or so minutes googling the subject and stumbled across this thread on another forum. .........

O well, if somebody posted on a forum, it must be true. Go find the pertinent regulations on a government website.

Duzzer

From personal experience I think Cameron is right. You have all types of "refugees" here claiming welfare never having contributed or having any intention of working here after getting citizenship. I see it everyday. Plenty on here living in middle class bliss arguing in favour of full entitlements for migrants, haven't got a clue!

Grand Moff Tarkin

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Ok, Nodin. Spent about ten or so minutes googling the subject and stumbled across this thread on another forum. On a website that was set up to help immigrants - http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=129187

Long story short, a non Irish lad has been in Ireland for four weeks - hes already signed up for jobseekers allowance and a medical card. Hes now in the process of getting his missus and his nipper a visa.

Still believe you cant just land here and sign on?

All the proof in the world will still not get him to change his view.

Annasopra

Gatling wrote: »

That's complete fiction its already been proven on this thread multiple times,

And habitual residence is already a shambles

Where has it been proven in this thread?

mattjack

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Would it be true to say that it depends on the welfare officer processing the claim? One may be extremely stringent, whilst the next may have a more laissez faire attitude to the guidelines?

I don't think you could use an example describing how one is extremely strict while another is very laissez faire.Your're kinda generalising , every individual is individual
, so comparing claiments doesn't really make sense.

I don't think they vary much either side of guidelines .
I can think of examples where I think a CWO shows a very human and sensitive that I liked and then other examples where a CWO sticks rigidly to the letter of the law and I thought they were right too.

Our total welfare system is unusual in the sense that nearly every benefit is means tested , except for OAP travel and children's allowance and maybe one or two more , can you see any problem with that ?
so if you want to talk about, shall we say foreign nationals getting children's allowance , should we not look closer to home first and examine every claim for children's allowance rather than targeting individual groups ?

Using examples like HRC and with housing is wrong , you need to tackle every aspect.

Annasopra

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

All the proof in the world will still not get him to change his view.

There is no "proof" in this thread.

mattjack

WayneMolloy wrote: »

I read an article recently that tore strips out of Irish backpackers in Australia recenty, due to the fact some of them were availing of the homeless charities that provide free food. The Irish, all couple of dozen of them, were more or less told to f*ck off, go home and if we have any food left over then you may have it.

This was in a national paper.

Compare and contrast with here.

Wayne , would'ya stop with that compare and contrast shite.

mattjack

Duzzer wrote: »

From personal experience I think Cameron is right. You have all types of "refugees" here claiming welfare never having contributed or having any intention of working here after getting citizenship. I see it everyday. Plenty on here living in middle class bliss arguing in favour of full entitlements for migrants, haven't got a clue!

I really wouldn,t be paying a lot of attention to any UK policies , heavy handed at the very least would be the best way to describe some of them.

Have a look at the PTA or more recent attempts at alcohol/drug policy particularly in England and Wales.

Nodin

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

All the proof in the world will still not get him to change his view.

None of the proof in the world certainly has no chance.

laoch na mona

after the last ten or so pages gave me a brain aneurism I for one now wait in hope for the day when anarchism will remove all states and be the death of racists

Grand Moff Tarkin

Nodin wrote: »

None of the proof in the world certainly has no chance.

Head out foreign so and see how well you are treated in any African or Eastern European country and let us know how you get on. I am sure it would make for a fascinating read to see what entitlements you would receive.

Nodin

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Head out foreign so and see how well you are treated in any African or Eastern European country and let us know how you get on. I am sure it would make for a fascinating read to see what entitlements you would receive.

Brilliant answer that. Its up there with "But in Saudi Arabia they'd...." in terms of devastating rebuttals.

Annasopra

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Head out foreign so and see how well you are treated in any African or Eastern European country and let us know how you get on. I am sure it would make for a fascinating read to see what entitlements you would receive.

Ah ok - that proves HRC is not implemented.

Grand Moff Tarkin

Nodin wrote: »

Brilliant answer that. Its up there with "But in Saudi Arabia they'd...." in terms of devastating rebuttals.

No do go on arrive on a plane and head to the nearest welfare office and see what entitlements you would get. It would be a lot less than what they are getting straight off the plane here. Just an idea like to see it from both sides of the coin.

mattjack

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

Head out foreign so and see how well you are treated in any African or Eastern European country and let us know how you get on. I am sure it would make for a fascinating read to see what entitlements you would receive.

Jayzus.,

WayneMolloy

mango salsa wrote: »

Ah ok - that proves HRC is not implemented.

But this does - http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=129187

Four weeks here, one the dole and a medical card in the back pocket.

WayneMolloy

mattjack wrote: »

Wayne , would'ya stop with that compare and contrast shite.

You want me to stop comparing Ireland's immigration policies with other wealthy western nations?

Why- does it make you uncomfortable?

WayneMolloy

laoch na mona wrote: »

after the last ten or so pages gave me a brain aneurism I for one now wait in hope for the day when anarchism will remove all states and be the death of racists

Anyone that wants to bring down the Irish state should be strung up using piano wire.

crockholm

Take the hypothetical situation of a Hungarian (or other eu newbie) who has worked in Ireland from 2005-2008,and upon redundancy has claimed jsb and rent allowance, yet is still unemployed in 2013. He could well be a great worker,and genuinely seeking employment,but, due to lack of skills and poor job prospects,cannot find work.


Said work might not be so forthcoming in his native land and Orban Viktor becomes yet more dictatorish,so decides to buckle down in Ireland. Is the lad a monster? Quite clearly not,but this sort of arrangement does not benefit Ireland.


Something has to change.

mattjack

WayneMolloy wrote: »

You want me to stop comparing Ireland's immigration policies with other wealthy western nations?

Why- does it make you uncomfortable?

Wayne , how you can make a connection between Irish back packers acting the maggot in Australia and Ireland's immigration policy has me .

Your second question is even more daft than your first comment.

You compare and contrast for me , then I'll add comment to any of your argument .

Mena

WayneMolloy wrote: »

But this does - http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=129187

Four weeks here, one the dole and a medical card in the back pocket.

The op in that post is British. Try harder.

Gatling

Mena wrote: »

The op in that post is British. Try harder.

Irish , see words Garda ,and. Irish immigration

youtube!

Well there ya have it ,a guy from Peru and his wife can come in and get dole within 4 weeks! We really are a soft touch:(

mattjack

youtube! wrote: »

Well there ya have it ,a guy from Peru and his wife can come in and get dole within 4 weeks! We really are a soft touch:(

That explains why we're over run with thousands of Peruvians , doesn't it ... there thousands of Peruvians where you are , right ?

Peruvians in the shops , at the schools , on the dole queue ... ???????

In fact they're at my door as we speak.........

Gatling

mattjack wrote: »

That explains why we're over run with thousands of Peruvians , doesn't it ... there thousands of Peruvians where you are , right ?

Peruvians in the shops , at the schools , on the dole queue ... ???????

In fact they're at my door as we speak.........

Reading an article earlier not sure how official it is ,
According to Eu data Ireland has the highest Eu migration influx ie 2010 '2011'2012 an average of 50,000 to 42,000 pa travelled here and are still here ,that doesn't include numbers from the assesion states or non EU immigrants

youtube!

Doesn't really matter where they are from but if you actually take the time to read the thread you will see what the problem is, I stand by what I said

WE REALLY ARE A SOFT TOUCH



Anyway I am outta here.

mattjack

youtube! wrote: »

Doesn't really matter where they are from but if you actually take the time to read the thread you will see what the problem is, I stand by what I said

WE REALLY ARE A SOFT TOUCH



Anyway I am outta here.

When you say outta here , do you mean you're emigrating somewhere ?

crockholm

mattjack wrote: »

When you say outta here , do you mean you're emigrating somewhere ?

You are an intelligent poster with experience in this field, it would seem. Do you believe that the current system is working ok, or would you like to make changes,and if so, what changes?

mattjack

crockholm wrote: »

You are an intelligent poster with experience in this field, it would seem. Do you believe that the current system is working ok, or would you like to make changes,and if so, what changes?

Thanks , my end of things is working with people who are homeless or risk of being homeless alongside looking to access whatever welfare is there for them , so my view is from a particular standpoint.

So the HRC is something I see from time to time with both Irish and foreign nationals looking to satisfy it , it can be extremely difficult to satisfy.
What surprises me here , is that some posters seem to actually have never heard of it , while others dont understand how it works at all.... and that,s ok , we live and learn.

Our system is just ok , I'm talking about welfare in general.
I think Child benefit needs to be looked and also Rent Supplement .
We tend to be reactive in response to issues without looking at the bigger picture.

hooradiation

youtube! wrote: »

Well there ya have it ,a guy from Peru and his wife can come in and get dole within 4 weeks! We really are a soft touch:(

Except, he's not from Peru.
Please try reading things more thoroughly in the future, It may save you from being wrong.

Annasopra

WayneMolloy wrote: »

But this does - http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=129187

Four weeks here, one the dole and a medical card in the back pocket.

No. All it does is prove someone said it on the internet.

mattjack

hooradiation wrote: »

Except, he's not from Peru.
Please try reading things more thoroughly in the future, It may save you from being wrong.

Read things thoroughly ? pfft .. don't you come in here with your common sense , logic and reasoning.

I'm being sarcastic , not to yourself mr.hooradiation .

WayneMolloy

mattjack wrote: »

Wayne , how you can make a connection between Irish back packers acting the maggot in Australia and Ireland's immigration policy has me .

Your second question is even more daft than your first comment.

You compare and contrast for me , then I'll add comment to any of your argument .

Listen, buddy. The Australian immigration system is lauded as one of the best in the world. Maybe we should replicate it, no?

The Irish who emigrated there have a choice - work or go home.

Proper order.

WayneMolloy

mattjack wrote: »

Read things thoroughly ? pfft .. don't you come in here with your common sense , logic and reasoning.

That lad is here four weeks and hes been hooked up with a medical card and the dole.

Makes a mockery of your whole 'its sooooo hard to satisfy hrc, I work in the charity industry'' spiel.

Death and Taxes

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Listen, buddy. The Australian immigration system is lauded as one of the best in the world. Maybe we should replicate it, no?

The Irish who emigrated there have a choice - work or go home.

Proper order.

No it isn't except by a few nuts maybe, and right wing recactionary types, oops same thing!

mattjack

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Listen, buddy. The Australian immigration system is lauded as one of the best in the world. Maybe we should replicate it, no?

The Irish who emigrated there have a choice - work or go home.

Proper order.

I have no idea about Australia.

WayneMolloy wrote: »

That lad is here four weeks and hes been hooked up with a medical card and the dole.

Makes a mockery of your whole 'its sooooo hard to satisfy hrc, I work in the charity industry'' spiel.

Indeed it it does . Buddy.

Are ya getting a bit uncomfortable ? you know the way I was asked was I uncomfortable ..

Again he's here four weeks , got a PPS number and a medical card that quick ... now he is a fast mover.

Death and Taxes

WayneMolloy wrote: »

That lad is here four weeks and hes been hooked up with a medical card and the dole.

Makes a mockery of your whole 'its sooooo hard to satisfy hrc, I work in the charity industry'' spiel.

Didn't happen, posted on the internet by a shíte stirrer, you know the type someone with a racist extreme right agenda.

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

No it isn't except by a few nuts maybe, and right wing recactionary types, oops same thing!

You realise that Australia has been governed by the left wing labour party since 2007, right?

Are they right wing reactionaries? Or by right wing reactionaries, do you mean people who dont support your views?

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Didn't happen, posted on the internet by a shíte stirrer, you know the type someone with a racist extreme right agenda.

I dont think you even believe that yourself.

WayneMolloy

mattjack wrote: »

Again he's here four weeks , got a PPS number and a medical card that quick ... now he is a fast mover.

Maybe the organisation you work for can give the lad a bit of working advising people who didnt meet the hrc requirements.

mattjack

Wayne , oh Wayne are you there ? .

I decided to have a read of that forum you were rattling on about , it does make for interesting reading .Apparently our new emigrant was here before for five years that might mean he'd have PPS number , wouldn't it Wayne and low and behold he's an UK citizen , so its not as if he just turned up

Here's his post

I am a UK national who lived in Ireland from 1998 to 2003. Since then I lived in the UK until a year ago when I moved to Nicaragua to carry out voluntary work. In the past year I visited my girlfriend in Peru twice and am now located there.

In early January 2013 we hope to marry. I plan to move to Ireland in late January and hopefully she and her 9 year old son can follow around the beginning of March.

Just for yourself Wayne , the same rules are applied to UK nationals and Irish nationals regarding HRC.

mattjack

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Maybe the organisation you work for can give the lad a bit of working advising people who didnt meet the hrc requirements.

Yes they can.

Push Pop

mattjack wrote: »

Wayne , oh Wayne are you there ? .

I decided to have a read of that forum you were rattling on about , it does make for interesting reading .Apparently our new emigrant was here before for five years that might mean he'd have PPS number , wouldn't it Wayne and low and behold he's an UK citizen , so its not as if he just turned up

Here's his post

I am a UK national who lived in Ireland from 1998 to 2003. Since then I lived in the UK until a year ago when I moved to Nicaragua to carry out voluntary work. In the past year I visited my girlfriend in Peru twice and am now located there.

In early January 2013 we hope to marry. I plan to move to Ireland in late January and hopefully she and her 9 year old son can follow around the beginning of March.

Just for yourself Wayne , the same rules are applied to UK nationals and Irish nationals regarding HRC.

However these people got in is irrelevant at this stage. They are here to stay and tax payers can look forward to another strata of the exponentially growing welfare class.
On another level is the 'West' paying reparations to developing countries by letting these abuses happen?

mattjack

Push Pop wrote: »

However these people got in is irrelevant at this stage. They are here to stay and tax payers can look forward to another strata of the exponentially growing welfare class.
On another level is the 'West' paying reparations to developing countries by letting these abuses happen?

You have me there Champ , what do you mean by the 'West' paying reparations to developing countries in the context of this thread ?

Push Pop

mattjack wrote: »

You have me there Champ , what do you mean by the 'West' paying reparations to developing countries in the context of this thread ?

By taking in immigrants from developing countries, giving them job opportunities then allowing them to stay indefinitely on JSA, housing lists etc.
The Left think that the West has plundered and stripped developing countries of their resources and now by letting them in en masse especially in the UK, we are giving something back?
Now Cameron wants to cease that.
Bit of a tangent but still relevant.
(Also, please don't address me as 'Champ')

Nodin

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

No do go on arrive on a plane and head to the nearest welfare office and see what entitlements you would get. It would be a lot less than what they are getting straight off the plane here. Just an idea like to see it from both sides of the coin.

It's irrelevant.

mattjack

Push Pop wrote: »

By taking in immigrants from developing countries, giving them job opportunities then allowing them to stay indefinitely on JSA, housing lists etc.
The Left think that the West has plundered and stripped developing countries of their resources and now by letting them in en masse especially in the UK, we are giving something back?
Now Cameron wants to cease that.
Bit of a tangent but still relevant.
(Also, please don't address me as 'Champ')

Fair enough ,

have you read any of his posts on that forum .
He's a UK national who's lived here before and is in the process of setting up a business , his wife has secured part time work.
Id imagine he's a bad example to use as an immigrant.