Cameron to curb welfare entitlements for migrants - Should Ireland follow suit?

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

But you spout colonisation is evil in other threads yet the hypocritical statement believe that other nationals don't have a right to a country they were born in

...and not knowing the difference between colonisation and immigration, and by implication saying that immigrants are colonists, thats another thing that will get you called a bigot, racist etc.

By the way, you may have missed this earlier -

Are you going to back up your position that its possible to arrive and claim, or are you going to do the decent thing and withdraw it?

Will you be as good as to answer the question put to you here?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=620

Gatling

old hippy wrote: »

I'm engaging with one or two individuals with dubious things to say about non nationals.

Do you understand?

That's perfectly understandable ,
As I've stated from the outset come work ,live ,be happy,
Don't come and demand a lifetime of social welfare benefits be free social housing ,
With zero contribution

Gatling

Nodin wrote: »

No, I think the "racist" thing is more due to the wild claims, the failure to back up same, the "invasion by stealth crap"....you know, that kind of xenophobic bile.

You can stir the pot all you like ,
What goes up must come down or does it ????

greendom

The truth will out

Gatling

old hippy wrote: »

This is not colonisation, you pumpkin. We're not under the yolk of some far off despot who's sent his armed forces to take the country :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

But yet the children of the soldiers of said depot have children in that other country doesn't that mean they have a right to be there as its the place of birth

Death and Taxes

Gatling wrote: »

That's perfectly understandable ,
As I've stated from the outset come work ,live ,be happy,
Don't come and demand a lifetime of social welfare benefits be free social housing ,
With zero contribution

For which there is zero evidence.

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

That's perfectly understandable ,
As I've stated from the outset come work ,live ,be happy,
Don't come and demand a lifetime of social welfare benefits be free social housing ,
With zero contribution

Back it up.

Are you going to back up your position that its possible to arrive and claim, or are you going to do the decent thing and withdraw it?

Will you be as good as to answer the question put to you here?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=620

not yet

I'd be surprised is many people would refuse genuine refugess, I think the problem a lot of people have is certain sections of the applicants seem to know how to play the system. Lets be honest here and ask why a huge precentage of applicants from Africa come from one country.

I have no problem with Someone coming here to work and spend in our economy, What I have a problem with is billions leaving our country each year and welfare paid out long term.

Gatling

Nodin wrote: »

Back it up.

Are you going to back up your position that its possible to arrive and claim, or are you going to do the decent thing and withdraw it?

Will you be as good as to answer the question put to you here?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=620

Sun rise ,sun down such a lie

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

Sun rise ,sun down such a lie

Are you going to back up your position that its possible to arrive and claim, or are you going to do the decent thing and withdraw it?

Will you be as good as to answer the question put to you here?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=620

Gatling

not yet wrote: »

I'd be surprised is many people would refuse genuine refugess, I think the problem a lot of people have is certain sections of the applicants seem to know how to play the system. Lets be honest here and ask why a huge precentage of applicants from Africa come from one country.

I have no problem with Someone coming here to work and spend in our economy, What I have a problem with is billions leaving our country each year and welfare paid out long term.

Its proven the majority who come here and claim asylum never follow through with there applications ,
The number of genuine asylum seekers is only a few hundred that's true asylum seekers, not the economic asylum seekers

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

Its proven the majority who come here and claim asylum never follow through with there applications ,
The number of genuine asylum seekers is only a few hundred that's true asylum seekers, not the economic asylum seekers

Aslyum seekers and immigrants are different things. Colonists and immigrants are different things. "small" and "far away" are different too.

Death and Taxes

not yet wrote: »

I'd be surprised is many people would refuse genuine refugess, I think the problem a lot of people have is certain sections of the applicants seem to know how to play the system. Lets be honest here and ask why a huge precentage of applicants from Africa come from one country.

I have no problem with Someone coming here to work and spend in our economy, What I have a problem with is billions leaving our country each year and welfare paid out long term.

What Billions are these?

WayneMolloy

old hippy wrote: »

If by multiculturalism, you mean people of different races, religions and cultures living side by side and sharing traditions? London, where myself (son of an immigrant to Ireland) and my wife (East Asian, worked in Dublin - contributed) live is fine. Yeah, it's not perfect but it's a lot better than the grim future you and your fellow travellers in the BNP/ICP would paint.

As for laughs and ridicule, Wayne - you're doing just fine yourself. We've seen plenty like you come & go, espousing the same hatred and filth. It won't work, a chara. It will never work because most ordinary decent people are above your crusade.

You are a second generation immigrant that doesnt even live in Ireland? Earlier on you said you would rather die than see it become monocultural (not that Ireland ever was).

That is a bit mad, Ted.

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

What Billions are these?

Nigerians send home 600 million euro every year in remittances. Weird, considering that their unemployment rate is near 40 percent.

crockholm

Oh dear, just googled in "somalians in canada", does not seem overwhelmingly positive. Not a fan of multiculturalism myself, but this thread is more to do with benefits to non-Irish people in Fingal, so on we go.

Death and Taxes

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Nigerians send home 600 million euro every year in remittances. Weird, considering that their unemployment rate is near 40 percent.

You have any evidence for these claims?

crockholm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

You have any evidence for these claims?

I think "The Guardian" newspaper published the flow of remittance money globally late last year.

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

You have any evidence for these claims?

I sure do - but you're just gonna ignore it!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/money-sent-abroad-by-immigrants-still-growing-1.1250567

Death and Taxes

crockholm wrote: »

I think "The Guardian" newspaper published the flow of remittance money globally late last year.

Yes they did, I was hoping you would have had more gumption than to mention that wholly discredited piece, which lacked both evidence and accuracy.
Perhaps thas why you didnt link to it!

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Yes they did, I was hoping you would have had more gumption than to mention that wholly discredited piece, which lacked both evidence and accuracy.
Perhaps thas why you didnt link to it!

The figures came from the world bank.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2013/feb/05/remittances-around-world-visualised

How was it discredited exactly? Is it another case of you not liking the figures, so labelling them as "wholly discredited"?

I think it is!

crockholm

Nah ! Didn't link it coz im a cross between a luddite and a techtard. Be sure to cancel your prescriptions to those hate-mongering, irreputable rags, The Irish Times and The Guardian. I hear the Daily Mail can be quite informative.

WayneMolloy

crockholm wrote: »

Nah ! Didn't link it coz im a cross between a luddite and a techtard. Be sure to cancel your prescriptions to those hate-mongering, irreputable rags, The Irish Times and The Guardian. I hear the Daily Mail can be quite informative.

Dont forget the world bank who actually produced the figures - they hate the free movement of labour and capital!

not yet

WileyCoyote wrote: »

What Billions are these?

A report in the Indo weeks ago stated that .85 billion poland, .75 billion Nigeria, .5 billion Pakistan and so on. Those billions. Please don't tell me you are not aware of this.

crockholm

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Dont forget the world bank who actually produced the figures - they hate the free movement of labour and capital!

do they do car loans?

johnty56

This thread is going around in circles and getting nowhere. Some on here seem to have pretty fixed views.. ie, multiculturalism is good etc etc and others disagree with them. The real question is can Ireland sustain a continued influx of immigrants that has seen a dramatic change in our demographic. Even if everyone who arrived in the last 15 years was working and paying taxes we just don't have the facilities to keep it up. Leaving arguments about what typr of society is best out of this lets look at the practicalities.
We have a poor health system that is already creaking under the strain, we have a poor education system with 35 + kids a teacher already a normal thing, we have a poor transport system, a poor water system ( look at the problems this week for example), and a really ****ty economy at the moment.
Do the multiculturalists really honestly think its a good idea to have an open door policy on immigration? At what point would you say 'hang on, this is a little out of control'.
I'm guessing none of you guys have a had to use the public health system lately? A minimum one year wait for many routine checks/procedures that ten years ago were done in aweek... can't you see that it isn't working?

not yet

johnty56 wrote: »

This thread is going around in circles and getting nowhere. Some on here seem to have pretty fixed views.. ie, multiculturalism is good etc etc and others disagree with them. The real question is can Ireland sustain a continued influx of immigrants that has seen a dramatic change in our demographic. Even if everyone who arrived in the last 15 years was working and paying taxes we just don't have the facilities to keep it up. Leaving arguments about what typr of society is best out of this lets look at the practicalities.
We have a poor health system that is already creaking under the strain, we have a poor education system with 35 + kids a teacher already a normal thing, we have a poor transport system, a poor water system ( look at the problems this week for example), and a really ****ty economy at the moment.
Do the multiculturalists really honestly think its a good idea to have an open door policy on immigration? At what point would you say 'hang on, this is a little out of control'.
I'm guessing none of you guys have a had to use the public health system lately? A minimum one year wait for many routine checks/procedures that ten years ago were done in aweek... can't you see that it isn't working?

Yeah but think of the poor children....

The thinking seems to be that we are well of in comparison to these countries, so should share the wealth.

greendom

johnty56 wrote: »

This thread is going around in circles and getting nowhere. Some on here seem to have pretty fixed views.. ie, multiculturalism is good etc etc and others disagree with them. The real question is can Ireland sustain a continued influx of immigrants that has seen a dramatic change in our demographic. Even if everyone who arrived in the last 15 years was working and paying taxes we just don't have the facilities to keep it up. Leaving arguments about what typr of society is best out of this lets look at the practicalities.
We have a poor health system that is already creaking under the strain, we have a poor education system with 35 + kids a teacher already a normal thing, we have a poor transport system, a poor water system ( look at the problems this week for example), and a really ****ty economy at the moment.
Do the multiculturalists really honestly think its a good idea to have an open door policy on immigration? At what point would you say 'hang on, this is a little out of control'.
I'm guessing none of you guys have a had to use the public health system lately? A minimum one year wait for many routine checks/procedures that ten years ago were done in aweek... can't you see that it isn't working?

But immigration has a positive impact on the economy not a negative one. Without the immigration that has occured over the last 15 years there would even be less money available - meaning worse water systems, worse health etc etc.

The country's infrastructure is in a shocking state in some regards, but to blame this on immigration is seriously wide of the mark. We are an ageing population that needs people to arrive and to settle and to have their children here so that the pensioners can continue to receive their pensions and to pay for all the sadly failing infrastructure.

crockholm

johnty56 wrote: »

This thread is going around in circles and getting nowhere. Some on here seem to have pretty fixed views.. ie, multiculturalism is good etc etc and others disagree with them. The real question is can Ireland sustain a continued influx of immigrants that has seen a dramatic change in our demographic. Even if everyone who arrived in the last 15 years was working and paying taxes we just don't have the facilities to keep it up. Leaving arguments about what typr of society is best out of this lets look at the practicalities.
We have a poor health system that is already creaking under the strain, we have a poor education system with 35 + kids a teacher already a normal thing, we have a poor transport system, a poor water system ( look at the problems this week for example), and a really ****ty economy at the moment.
Do the multiculturalists really honestly think its a good idea to have an open door policy on immigration? At what point would you say 'hang on, this is a little out of control'.
I'm guessing none of you guys have a had to use the public health system lately? A minimum one year wait for many routine checks/procedures that ten years ago were done in aweek... can't you see that it isn't working?

It can't/won't be stopped. Accecpt this.

not yet

greendom wrote: »

But immigration has a positive impact on the economy not a negative one. Without the immigration that has occured over the last 15 years there would even be less money available - meaning worse water systems, worse health etc etc.

The country's infrastructure is in a shocking state in some regards, but to blame this on immigration is seriously wide of the mark. We are an ageing population that needs people to arrive and to settle and to have their children here so that the pensioners can continue to receive their pensions and to pay for all the sadly failing infrastructure.

Yes, Immigration 'can' be a positive thing but it needs to be controlled. Surely even the best of tree hugging, whooly jumper wearing people sees that.

johnty56

not yet wrote: »

Yeah but think of the poor children....

The thinking seems to be that we are well of in comparison to these countries, so should share the wealth.

Yeah well, sorry to break it to these guys but thats bollix, its not what the average guy thinks, and no matter how vocal they are it won't change the fact that we have a duty to think of our own children first. I know I do. If they want to make a difference then tell them to lobby those that pull the strings on a world level... the US government, the Chinese authorities, the often tyrannic leaders of the countries from which those they wish to improve come from...
Look at the refugee system here.. most right minded people will admit that the majority of those who came here seeking asylum were economic migrants. We spent millions apon millions dealing with them, feeding them etc etc. That money could have been used to help genuine refugees, people who are now dead because no one could or would help them... Its time for common sense not bull****.

hooradiation

WayneMolloy wrote: »

A Greek lad I used to work with bragged about the fact that Greece only had a tiny far right party, considering the number of illegals in Greece. Showed how tolerant they were, apparently.

That was nine years ago. Now that tiny fringe party are polling as the third largest party in the state.

Be careful what you wish for.

That would depend entirely on what it is you think i'm wishing for.

Anyway, we've had four years (if we assume your linked piece was some kind of watershed moment or whatever) and yet there's been no upswing in far right parties or indeed populist parties embracing that platform.

In the same time both Greece and Ireland have gone into recession.... so your idea of Ireland experiencing a similar shift to the right seem fanciful at best.

That said, we'll always have a vocal minority, but don't confuse your loudness with there being a "silent majority", it's just fruitless ego stroking.

johnty56

hooradiation wrote: »

That would depend entirely on what it is you think i'm wishing for.

Anyway, we've had four years (if we assume your linked piece was some kind of watershed moment or whatever) and yet there's been no upswing in far right parties or indeed populist parties embracing that platform.

In the same time both Greece and Ireland have gone into recession.... so your idea of Ireland experiencing a similar shift to the right seem fanciful at best.

That said, we'll always have a vocal minority, but don't confuse your loudness with there being a "silent majority", it's just fruitless ego stroking.

I don't know about ego stroking but what I do know is that 'vocal minorities' often seem to believe that their wishes should take precedence over those of the majority, which is an affront to democracy. I think one poster even suggested that for politicians to do what the people wanted was a bit mad..
that is an absolutely ridiculous assertion and I'm amazed it was left unchallenged

greendom

johnty56 wrote: »

I don't know about ego stroking but what I do know is that 'vocal minorities' often seem to believe that their wishes should take precedence over those of the majority, which is an affront to democracy. I think one poster even suggested that for politicians to do what the people wanted was a bit mad..
that is an absolutely ridiculous assertion and I'm amazed it was left unchallenged

Well ideally I'd like to pay no taxes and have a system of free health care for all with good roads and public transport throughout the country. Unfortunately, the politicians job is to ensure that what is best for the country is carried out and what I want doesn't come into it.

The time we get to say what we want is when elections come up. What happens then ? - politicians lie to ensure they get your vote. I maybe a bit mad but I can see the reality of the situation

WayneMolloy

greendom wrote: »

Well ideally I'd like to pay no taxes and have a system of free health care for all with good roads and public transport throughout the country. Unfortunately, the politicians job is to ensure that what is best for the country is carried out and what I want doesn't come into it.

The time we get to say what we want is when elections come up. What happens then ? - politicians lie to ensure they get your vote. I maybe a bit mad but I can see the reality of the situation

I asked a now sitting td what his views were on immigration during the general election 2011 campaign. He replied by asking me - what angle are you coming from, pro immigration or no?

johnty56

greendom wrote: »

Well ideally I'd like to pay no taxes and have a system of free health care for all with good roads and public transport throughout the country. Unfortunately, the politicians job is to ensure that what is best for the country is carried out and what I want doesn't come into it.

The time we get to say what we want is when elections come up. What happens then ? - politicians lie to ensure they get your vote. I maybe a bit mad but I can see the reality of the situation

You haven't really thought about that have you? The basic premise of democracy is that adults are just that, adults, and will think about what is best and these are the things they will ask their elected representatives to achieve on their behalf. Half the population are men, most would like free coke and hookers but they don't ask their politicians to provide them because they are not idiots.
Democracy works on the principle of 'the wisdom of the crowd'. If you don't know what it is google it, then google democracy, then google ' a small number of people imposing their will on the majority'- I think you'll find references to fascism etc.

WayneMolloy

hooradiation wrote: »

That would depend entirely on what it is you think i'm wishing for.

Anyway, we've had four years (if we assume your linked piece was some kind of watershed moment or whatever) and yet there's been no upswing in far right parties or indeed populist parties embracing that platform.

In the same time both Greece and Ireland have gone into recession.... so your idea of Ireland experiencing a similar shift to the right seem fanciful at best.

That said, we'll always have a vocal minority, but don't confuse your loudness with there being a "silent majority", it's just fruitless ego stroking.

I didnt say Ireland would slide to the right - my point was that you never know what the future holds and not get too smug. Golden dawn are a bit too mad for me but a ukip style party would do very in Ireland.

The fact remains, the majority of Irish people want immigration clamed down upon. Thats far from a minority view, its a fact proven by each and every opinion poll conducted on the issue. I could have used any of the opinion polls to back my point up, but randomly chose the one from four years ago. Not because it was a watershed moment - as they all have the same result.

johnty56

Just to be clear here, I am firmly in favour of immigration. Ireland has thrived as a result of some forms of immigration, namely immigration of skilled and talented people who are essential for the knowledge based economy we wish to build.
What we don't need is unskilled migrants with little to add in terms of economic activity, and little wish to integrate or even learn the language we speak, such as the situation our nearest neighbours have found themselves, with sections of their community existing in tandem and in complete isolation.
This is not in the least Racist and if any of you wish to state otherwise please do so and I will pursue the matter through the courts as it would be clearly slanderous.

greendom

johnty56 wrote: »

You haven't really thought about that have you? The basic premise of democracy is that adults are just that, adults, and will think about what is best and these are the things they will ask their elected representatives to achieve on their behalf. Half the population are men, most would like free coke and hookers but they don't ask their politicians to provide them because they are not idiots.
Democracy works on the principle of 'the wisdom of the crowd'. If you don't know what it is google it, then google democracy, then google ' a small number of people imposing their will on the majority'- I think you'll find references to fascism etc.

You're probably not too far from the truth with that summary. How democratic is our country, really ?

LizT

I think we're done here, the discussion has been going around in circles for a while.