Cameron to curb welfare entitlements for migrants - Should Ireland follow suit?

deisedave

Praetorian Saighdiuir wrote: »

Jesus that's a bit much.....you have no opinion on the topic? You just here to abuse posters?

Well I would like to read a thread without people going off topic all the time. I don't really have an opinion because I think whether or not a migrant should get welfare should be decided on an individual basis rather than a blanket decision.

Push Pop

What I'd like to know is where does Ireland draw the line in relation to its social welfare system when it comes to other EU countries, non EU and new accession EU states.
I have to wonder do the Lefists think the current system is fine and everyone who opposes it should shut up and just pay out.
Say for instance there are 100k immigrants from a certain EU country and 20-25% are on government assistance. What if that number increases to 300k and you have the same unemployment rate, is it still ok?
Where is the point at which the madness has to stop?
The damage has been done well before our government put in the habitual residency condition and anchor baby trick was dealt with.
I really do wonder do people realise the significance of a huge government spending deficit, huge government debt as a % of GDP and its future effect on the country. I fully realise that our deficit is vastly of our own fault but we need to deal with our social welfare problem and come up with solutions and fast.

KuriousOranj

Gee_G wrote: »

How Does it not inhibit the sellers jobseeking? And how are they entitled to claim jobseekers benefit/allowance just because they are not making substantial money? sure the majority of the population of Ireland are no longer making substantial money!
I'm not being smart by the way, just wondering what sort of explanation the Social would give!

Because the small number of the vendors at the time I worked there,who were actually claiming benefit,would only be selling the magazine 1 or 2 days a week for a few hours at a time.Didn't impede them handing out CV's or replying to job adverts online,and didn't intefere with them attending interviews either.DSW had no problems with this.If they had, the Big Issue would not still be in existence in this country,and it was founded in the early 1990's.

You are welcome to sell the magazine for a few days and see what sort of money you make!

token101

greendom wrote: »

Like a lot of Irish people, I imagine, they were getting by until the economic crisis hit. Lots of people out there who thought they were financially secure until they lost their jobs and were unable to find another one. The 70 nationality thing has absolutely no relevance to me. I don't see what they have done to deserve deportation. If anyone deserves that fate it's the bankers and politicians who have got us into this mess.

Deporting people is nonsense, but I certainly would not prepared to fund indefinite welfare for economic migrants like Ireland seems to do with Irish citizens and I really couldn't care less if they have made lives there or not. Benefits should be paid out if you've worked here for a set time, absolutely. You've paid for that. But welfare, as in the indefinite type given to people who can't get work for years? Absolutely not.

You work in Australia and you get 30 days to leave the country if you can't find employment. Whilst I think that's a bit too harsh, I certainly wouldn't be expecting the Aussie taxpayer to fund me if I lost my job. At least not until the day I'm holding an Aussie passport where I could actually call myself a citizen.

WayneMolloy

This lads after being caught defrauding the social twice. His punishment? Deportation? Community work? Noep. Just pay it back.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/lithuanian-bar-worker-accused-of-milking-social-welfare-system-29157839.html

Tip of the iceberg.

WayneMolloy

token101 wrote: »

Deporting people is nonsense, but I certainly would not prepared to fund indefinite welfare for economic migrants like Ireland seems to do with Irish citizens and I really couldn't care less if they have made lives there or not. Benefits should be paid out if you've worked here for a set time, absolutely. You've paid for that. But welfare, as in the indefinite type given to people who can't get work for years? Absolutely not.

You work in Australia and you get 30 days to leave the country if you can't find employment. Whilst I think that's a bit too harsh, I certainly wouldn't be expecting the Aussie taxpayer to fund me if I lost my job. At least not until the day I'm holding an Aussie passport where I could actually call myself a citizen.

Why is deporting people nonsense? It seems that the Australians have the right idea.

WayneMolloy

greendom wrote: »

Like a lot of Irish people, I imagine, they were getting by until the economic crisis hit. Lots of people out there who thought they were financially secure until they lost their jobs and were unable to find another one. The 70 nationality thing has absolutely no relevance to me. I don't see what they have done to deserve deportation..

Becoming a burden on the state warrants repatriation imho.

If you cannot pay your way in a state you migrate to, either look for a higher paying position or relocate back to your country of origin. This nation is as broke as a joke and we can no longer afford acts of charity such as housing 70 different nationalities in one small enclave of Dublin.

If large numbers of Irish emigrants were on the mooch in Australia and Canada, I would say the exact same thing.

Death and Taxes

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Becoming a burden on the state warrants repatriation imho.

If you cannot pay your way in a state you migrate to, either look for a higher paying position or relocate back to your country of origin. This nation is as broke as a joke and we can no longer afford acts of charity such as housing 70 different nationalities in one small enclave of Dublin.

If large numbers of Irish emigrants were on the mooch in Australia and Canada, I would say the exact same thing.

Thankfully your inane racist rantings mean nothing, EU citizens cannot be deported/repatriated because they have lost their jobs.
Personally inward migration has been broadly speaking one of the best things that ever happened to Ireland and has made it a more diverse , open minded , and modern society. Long may that last.

Death and Taxes

WayneMolloy wrote: »

This lads after being caught defrauding the social twice. His punishment? Deportation? Community work? Noep. Just pay it back.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/lithuanian-bar-worker-accused-of-milking-social-welfare-system-29157839.html

Tip of the iceberg.

nothing compared to what Irish citizen do, this week alone two in court for massive welfare scams.

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

nothing compared to what Irish citizen do, this week alone two in court for massive welfare scams.

That makes it all gravy so.

Death and Taxes

WayneMolloy wrote: »

I dont tolerate freeloaders.

What quango are you aligned to?

If your stated location is correct then you are looking to be a freeloader (queuing up outside Fingal housing office) shame on you!

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Thankfully your inane racist rantings mean nothing, EU citizens cannot be deported/repatriated because they have lost their jobs.
Personally inward migration has been broadly speaking one of the best things that ever happened to Ireland and has made it a more diverse , open minded , and modern society. Long may that last.

You are just repeating randon rhetoric, buddy.

We are fully entitle to deport anyone, EU citizen or no, if they become an unnecessary burden on the state - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2004/l_158/l_15820040430en00770123.pdf

Death and Taxes

WayneMolloy wrote: »

You are just repeating randon rhetoric, buddy.

We are fully entitle to deport anyone, EU citizen or no, if they become an unnecessary burden on the state - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2004/l_158/l_15820040430en00770123.pdf

I suggest you re read that documend dear boy, as usual you are wrong, but sure there is nothing new there.

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I suggest you re read that documend dear boy, as usual you are wrong, but sure there is nothing new there.

Page 5/47 part (10).

Page 8/47 part (21).

WayneMolloy

This clears it up pretty succinctly - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7079709.stm

So yes, we are perfectly entitled to deport EU citizens who become a burden on the state.

MAR86

fozz10 wrote: »

make all there social welfare payment rates relevant to their native country. cant be fairer then that.

Then I should be paying tax at my native country's rates! That would only be fair!

WayneMolloy

MAR86 wrote: »

Then I should be paying tax at my native country's rates! That would only be fair!

Does your country provide free gaffs and welfare benefits for newcomers?

Does it have 70 different nationalities on one smaller areas housing list?

homerjay2005

finally looks like people are beginning to be caught and convicted with social welfare fraud, its great to see!

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

If your stated location is correct then you are looking to be a freeloader (queuing up outside Fingal housing office) shame on you!

What can I say? You waxing lyrical about how great the place is, has me sold. I hope to be nationality number 71 on the list.

Il learn to do a bit of samba or something like that and enrich you all, culturally, with my presence.

youtube!

As a matter of interest if for example I as an Irish citizen decide to emigrate to another EU country,or even more specifically another country with Euro as the currency, let's say Germany as a perfect example, if I work there for a year or two and then become unemployed am I entitled to

a) claim JB (or equivalent) and after one year claim

b) A medical card or equivalent

c) The equivalent of JA

d) be eligible for a house

e) to be entitled to do all this on a permanent basis as long as I need to?

These are not loaded questions because I honestly don't know the answers can someone please enlighten me?

Death and Taxes

WayneMolloy wrote: »

What can I say? You waxing lyrical about how great the place is, has me sold. I hope to be nationality number 71 on the list.

Il learn to do a bit of samba or something like that and enrich you all, culturally, with my presence.

the only thing you could enrich with your horeshít is roses!

ResearchWill

youtube! wrote: »

As a matter of interest if for example I as an Irish citizen decide to emigrate to another EU country,or even more specifically another country with Euro as the currency, let's say Germany as a perfect example, if I work there for a year or two and then become unemployed am I entitled to

a) claim JB (or equivalent) and after one year claim

b) A medical card or equivalent

c) The equivalent of JA

d) be eligible for a house

e) to be entitled to do all this on a permanent basis as long as I need to?

These are not loaded questions because I honestly don't know the answers can someone please enlighten me?

As long as you satisfy the relevant rules in Germany, said rules must be the same for you and any German national. Then yes you qualify for what ever a German Citizen would get. In Germany like I assume the rest of the EU the Habitual Residence rule will apply. That usually requires a number of tests, length of time in the country, by looking at case law two years is usually sufficient. There is also a requirement that your intention is to remain in Germany, this can be show by having put down serious roots in the area etc.

The EU is founded on three very basic principles, 1 free movement of goods (trade is good) 2 free movement of services (again trade is good) there can be no barrier to goods and services within the EU, the final strand is free movement of workers, by treating eu immigrants differently to your own people you are not allowing free movement of workers. A thing a lot of people forget is this are not social rights they are economic rights.

An example of free movement in action. Education is included in free movement of persons. Scotland introduced free fees for its Students a few years back, any person from another EU state has the right to avail of that right if accepted in a Scotish University. But persons holding a British Passport that is people from England, Wales or NI don't get that right as they are not exercising movement over a border. Hence why a number of people in NI opted for an Irish Passport, to get free fees in Scotland. I see that scotland is closing the loophole this year, by requiring a 3 month residency test.

"However, under the new legislation, dual nationality university applicants from the rest of the UK will be required to prove that they have lived in another EU member state for at least three months before qualifying to have their tuition fees paid."

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/scottish-government-blocks-free-education-for-irish-passport-holders-from-northern-ireland-28864069.html

If when living and working in Germany, you decide to apply for Social Housing, you can as long as you satisfy the same tests as a German National. If for example the German Government, said the earning threshold for a German was a maximum of €50k a year but a EU national lost the right to apply if earning more than €20k a year. That would not allow free movement of workers as it would be easier for the German to work and get social housing.

MAR86

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Does your country provide free gaffs and welfare benefits for newcomers?

Does it have 70 different nationalities on one smaller areas housing list?

I don't get a free gaff, I pay 1200 euro in rent for a 2bed apartment. There's no such thing as providing welfare benefits on arrival, you have to work, prove your residence, than lose your job, than apply and see if you qualify. You can't just get off the plane and head straight to the dole office...I mean you probably can, but you would be told to f.off straight away.


And you keep bringing up this 70 nationalities thing....if they are on the list does it mean they will automatically get a "free gaff" or does it mean that they're on a list and that's all?

cournioni

Cut the welfare for the lazy cnuts in this country in general and we are on the right tracks. Too many people drawing dole with no intention of working Irish and non-Irish. They're the ones that usually ruin it for the honest people that are out of work and trying their best to earn a living.

WayneMolloy

MAR86 wrote: »

I don't get a free gaff, I pay 1200 euro in rent for a 2bed apartment. There's no such thing as providing welfare benefits on arrival, you have to work, prove your residence, than lose your job, than apply and see if you qualify. You can't just get off the plane and head straight to the dole office...I mean you probably can, but you would be told to f.off straight away.


And you keep bringing up this 70 nationalities thing....if they are on the list does it mean they will automatically get a "free gaff" or does it mean that they're on a list and that's all?

I asked if your country provides welfare benefits to newcomers like the Irish state. You didnt answer so I skimmed through your relatively few posts..... to compare the two countries policies.

And lo and behold, you were working in Ireland as an illegal.If you can obtain a pps number and work illegally, then I am sure you can obtain a pps number and claim illegally.

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

the only thing you could enrich with your horeshít is roses!

Cool beans, buddy.

You were decrying the asylum process earlier and asking why it took so long to process the applicants claims. Proably due to most of them pulling crap like this - http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/twothirds-of-failed-asylum-seekers-had-used-false-identities-26855916.html

MAR86

WayneMolloy wrote: »

I asked if your country provides welfare benefits to newcomers like the Irish state. You didnt answer so I skimmed through your relatively few posts..... to compare the two countries policies.

And lo and behold, you were working in Ireland as an illegal.If you can obtain a pps number and work illegally, then I am sure you can obtain a pps number and claim illegally.

Just to answer your post and I won't bother replying anymore.

I am working legally, just as a matter of fact I am Romanian, I don't need anything besides a PPS number in order to work legally..that's all that's required from me.

As far as I know (but haven't been in the situation) my country does offer free housing to those that are really in need of it, I don't know about immigrants though to be honest. My reply was a response to someone who said that social welfare payments should be limited to the amount you would receive in your native country. I don't agree with this because I pay tax at Irish rates (of course) and if I was to lose my job (working here for 3 years now) I wouldn't be able to survive on the amount that I would receive in my home country (difference currency as well) because my expenses, rent, ESB, phone, internet, would still be the same.

Hope this clears things a bit for you, I shouldn't explain myself to strangers on internet, but here I am

WayneMolloy

MAR86 wrote: »

Just to answer your post and I won't bother replying anymore.

I am working legally, just as a matter of fact I am Romanian, I don't need anything besides a PPS number in order to work legally..that's all that's required from me.

As far as I know (but haven't been in the situation) my country does offer free housing to those that are really in need of it, I don't know about immigrants though to be honest. My reply was a response to someone who said that social welfare payments should be limited to the amount you would receive in your native country. I don't agree with this because I pay tax at Irish rates (of course) and if I was to lose my job (working here for 3 years now) I wouldn't be able to survive on the amount that I would receive in my home country (difference currency as well) because my expenses, rent, ESB, phone, internet, would still be the same.

Hope this clears things a bit for you, I shouldn't explain myself to strangers on internet, but here I am

You werent paying taxes if you were working illegally. You only became legal when the geebags in the dail eased restrictions on Romanian/Bulgarian citizens a year early at the start of January. Up until then, you required a work permit. You ignored this, obtained a pps number, which you werent entiled to, and worked illegally.

Bit rich to be complaining that it would be unfair if you didnt receive full welfare- when you had no qualms about illegally working in the state up until relatively recently.

MAR86

WayneMolloy wrote: »

You werent paying taxes if you were working illegally. You only became legal when the geebags in the dail eased restrictions on Romanian/Bulgarian citizens a year early at the start of January.

Bit rich to be complaining that it would be unfair if you didnt receive full welfare- when you had no qualms about illegally working in the state up until relatively recently.

I was studying (still am) therefore I always worked legally in Ireland. I think you shouldn't make claims like that, if you don't know the background.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

WayneMolloy

MAR86 wrote: »

I was studying (still am) therefore I always worked legally in Ireland. I think you shouldn't make claims like that, if you don't know the background.

That is a lie. Reread your posts. You admitted to working illegally.

You just said a minute ago that you were working here for three years. Sure.

Anyway, it doesnt really matter now. Just a bit hypocritical, is all.

token101

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Why is deporting people nonsense? It seems that the Australians have the right idea.

It's nonsense because it's irrational and stupid. You don't just give someone residency here and then decide to pull it because a problem has been caused that they had no part in. I couldn't care less how long people stay in the country looking for work as long they're here legally, but I don't want to have to pay extra taxes to facilitate it. If they get work, fair play. If not, well they'll eventually have to face the prospect I have to face when my contract here is up. Cut the amount spent on welfare and cut the ridiculous taxes. Workers will have more disposable income, ensure that it's spent in Ireland by cutting VAT and you'll eventually see more jobs.

WayneMolloy

Phoenix wrote: »

Have you ever traveled outside of Ireland Wayne?

No, ive never left the parish.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

MAR86

WayneMolloy wrote: »

That is a lie. Reread your posts. You admitted to working illegally.

You just said a minute ago that you were working here for three years. Sure.

Anyway, it doesnt really matter now. Just a bit hypocritical, is all.

I think you can't read properly, I never said I worked here illegally!!! I was working here for 3 years, to work legally you had to either study or to apply for a work permit! These were the 2 options! I went for the 1st because it was in my interest anyway to study and have an Irish degree.

WayneMolloy

token101 wrote: »

It's nonsense because it's irrational and stupid. You don't just give someone residency here and then decide to pull it because a problem has been caused that they had no part in. I couldn't care less how long people stay in the country looking for work as long they're here legally, but I don't want to have to pay extra taxes to facilitate it. If they get work, fair play. If not, well they'll eventually have to face the prospect I have to face when my contract here is up. Cut the amount spent on welfare and cut the ridiculous taxes. Workers will have more disposable income, ensure that it's spent in Ireland by cutting VAT and you'll eventually see more jobs.

It takes 5 years to gain permanent residency here iirc. Once someone has worked here for five years they can get residency/citizenship and all that lark. No problem, once they obtain either they should be treated just like a native. But someone here a year or two should get a couple of months welfare max, and if they are still unemployed after that- a ticket home. Definitely not housing and all the other goodies.

WayneMolloy

MAR86 wrote: »

I think you can't read properly, I never said I worked here illegally!!! I was working here for 3 years, to work legally you had to either study or to apply for a work permit! These were the 2 options! I went for the 1st because it was in my interest anyway to study and have an Irish degree.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73847707

Post from 18 months were you admit to working but not having the right to work I.e working illegally.

I wouldnt of posted that if you werent making snide remarks.

Gatling

MAR86 wrote: »

And you keep bringing up this 70 nationalities thing....if they are on the list does it mean they will automatically get a "free gaff" or does it mean that they're on a list and that's all?

Its means they get a gaff ,usually infront of Irish families most of the time they scream discrimination if there not housed after a certain amount of time

token101

Gatling wrote: »

Its means they get a gaff ,usually infront of Irish families most of the time they scream discrimination if there not housed after a certain amount of time

There's a list so that's bollocks. First come, first served. **** your nationality.

WayneMolloy wrote: »

But someone here a year or two should get a couple of months welfare max, and if they are still unemployed after that- a ticket home. Definitely not housing and all the other goodies.

I doubt that happens to be honest. What goodies do you mean?

Death and Taxes

Gatling wrote: »

Its means they get a gaff ,usually infront of Irish families most of the time they scream discrimination if there not housed after a certain amount of time

Bolloxology

WayneMolloy

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Bolloxology

The larger families generally get bumped to the top. Which is pretty damn wreckless when one thinks about.

There was murder over this in your locale not so long ago.

EDIT: Heres the link - http://www.kierandennison.com/2011/02/over-half-on-fingal-housing-list-are.html

Gatling

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Bolloxology

You obviously know all about the housing list, then explain how people are in the country less than 6-7 years are housed already yet we have families waiting 10+ years waiting to be housed to the point most actually give up hope of been housed

Nodin

Gatling wrote: »

You obviously know all about the housing list, then explain how people are in the country less than 6-7 years are housed already yet we have families waiting 10+ years waiting to be housed to the point most actually give up hope of been housed

Bolloxology part deux.

Unless you've concrete, verified proof?

Gatling

Nodin wrote: »

Bolloxology part deux.

Unless you've concrete, verified proof?

Its public fact

Actually prove it isn't happening

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Gatling

Phoenix wrote: »

Have you any figures to prove your assertion?because your posts continue to read like some sort of Monty Python sketch

Retarded argument why not say well everybody who's posts anything to produce writen documented evidence
To back up a post

WayneMolloy

Phoenix wrote: »

Have you any figures to prove your assertion?because your posts continue to read like some sort of Monty Python sketch

What exactly do you want to know? Il root out the links.

Fire away.

Reekwind

Gatling wrote: »

Its public fact

Actually prove it isn't happening

How can someone prove the non-existence of something? You've made the assertion and now the burden of proof lies on you

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Gatling

Reekwind wrote: »

How can someone prove the non-existence of something? You've made the assertion and now the burden of proof lies on you

So you don't live in a council estate or are on a council housing list