Galway Man Wounded by Israeli Soldier. (rubber bullet)

Airitech

Nodin wrote: »

That's your opinion. Hamas, despite the state they're in, point to the fact that they are (a) no longer occupied and (b) no longer being colonised. It makes rather a stark contrast to Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank etc.

This was achieved using the death penalty and the murder of suspected informants and civilians was it?

Following that logic, are commission of human rights abuses and war crimes is acceptable as long as Hamas objectives are achieved?

Would this forgiving approach also be applied to Israels many crimes?

Nodin

Airitech wrote: »

This was achieved using the death penalty and the murder of suspected informants and civilians was it? ?

It may well have been. Dealing with colloborators is one of the nastier parts of this kind of conflict.

Airitech wrote: »

Following that logic, are commission of human rights abuses and war crimes is acceptable as long as Hamas objectives are achieved

No, obviously there's limits. Nor would I say that all of Hamas goals are desirable.

Airitech wrote: »

Would this forgiving approach also be applied to Israels many crimes?

Why would it? Given that all legal avenues have been closed, the establishment of a Palestinian state and the end of occupation are perfectly valid grounds for armed struggle. Colonialism and expansionism, on the other hand, are discredited practices that have no place in the modern world. There is no justification for anything done to further such aims.

Airitech

Nodin wrote: »

It may well have been. Dealing with colloborators is one of the nastier parts of this kind of conflict.



No, obviously there's limits. Nor would I say that all of Hamas goals are desirable.




Why would it? Given that all legal avenues have been closed, the establishment of a Palestinian state and the end of occupation are perfectly valid grounds for armed struggle. Colonialism and expansionism, on the other hand, are discredited practices that have no place in the modern world. There is no justification for anything done to further such aims.

I'm sure all those alleged collaborators were afforded due process.

Firing rockets at civilians and suicide bombings at bus stops isn't an armed struggle any more than leaving bombs in pubs and shopping centres was in Northern Ireland. They are war crimes.

If you're ok with murders in pursuit of a greater goal there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but I don't think any life should be considered expendable.

Nodin

Airitech wrote: »

................

If you're ok with murders in pursuit of a greater goal there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but I don't think any life should be considered expendable.

I'd just add you don't seem too exercised about Palestinian life ended in pursuit of a fundamentally wrongful goal.

Airitech

Nodin wrote: »

I'd just add you don't seem too exercised about Palestinian life ended in pursuit of a fundamentally wrongful goal.

You don't seem to be too exercised by Palestinian deaths unless they are at the hands of Israel.

i was talking about actions by the Palestinian side, not what Israel has done. If you look back through this thread I have referred to Israeli crimes and Israeli wrongs, not as explicit as you'd like but it's there.

Any more whataboutery?

The Saint

Siuin wrote: »

This Galway guy is nothing more than a pathetic geriatric whose only hope at gaining an ounce of fame is to throw himself into someone else's conflict rather than actually doing something useful like trying to improve our lot at home.

Didn't you volunteer with the IDF when you were in Israel?

Siuin

The Saint wrote: »

Didn't you volunteer with the IDF when you were in Israel?

Yes, and I am Jewish- my people, my conflict. FYI I also have family and friends over there. Pity I can't say the same for this Galway loser.

Nodin

Siuin wrote: »

Yes.......

So

Going over to protest against illegal occupation = bad, mind your own business, stay at home, be quiet.

Going over to aid the forces thats doing the whole illegal occupying thing = Yay, Happy-happy Joy, joy.

Nodin

Siuin wrote: »

Yes, and I am Jewish- my people, my conflict. ........

Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity, last I checked. And I'm reasonably sure you once stated you were given a hard time by some because you weren't Jewish.

Yitzhak Rabin

Nodin wrote: »

Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity, last I checked. And I'm reasonably sure you once stated you were given a hard time by some because you weren't Jewish.

It's both, and I'm sure you're aware of that fact.

Siuin

Nodin wrote: »

So

Going over to protest against illegal occupation = bad, mind your own business, stay at home, be quiet.

Going over to aid the forces thats doing the whole illegal occupying thing = Yay, Happy-happy Joy, joy.

Not sure if I should even reply to such a childish post, but all the same... I must firstly mention that I'm personally not in favour of the settlements in the West Bank. However I view the continuation of settlement building as a political and not a military issue. I aided the IDF because I'm a Zionist and I believe in maintaining a Jewish presence in the land of Israel. I also believe in creating to the greater good of the Jewish community. That doesn't mean that I take onboard every single decision made by the Israeli government- believe it or not, Israelis do not simply operate with one homogeneous mind.

I don't believe that these kinds of outside agitators help anyone- Israelis OR Palestinians. All they do is stoke the fire of a pre-existing conflict so that they can play the game and get a little thrill out of it all. Real progression will only be made if Israelis and Palestinians are truly willing to bring about the changes which are necessary. Internationals like the Galway dude only act to inflame the situation and add to feelings of bitterness and resentment. The more internationals butt into the conflict, the more convinced Israel will become that the world is against them and the more they will exist upon flying in the face of international opinion. The goal is not to create an atmosphere of 'them' versus 'us', it's to engender a feeling of mutual desire to live quiet and peaceful lives.

Siuin

Nodin wrote: »

Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity, last I checked. And I'm reasonably sure you once stated you were given a hard time by some because you weren't Jewish.

I'm not going to go into the details on a public forum, but those people did not recognise me as Jewish due to mixed parentage, despite the fact that I very much see myself as a Jew.

Nodin

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

It's both, and I'm sure you're aware of that fact.

No, it can be both, but not nessecarily so.

Nodin

siuin wrote:

Not sure if I should even reply to such a childish post, but all the same... I must firstly mention that I'm personally not in favour of the settlements in the West Bank. However I view the continuation of settlement building as a political and not a military issue.
.

How did you come to that conclusion?

siuin wrote:

I aided the IDF because I'm a Zionist and I believe in maintaining a Jewish presence in the land of Israel. I also believe in creating to the greater good of the Jewish community. That doesn't mean that I take onboard every single decision made by the Israeli government- believe it or not, Israelis do not simply operate with one homogeneous mind..

If you aid an army of occupation, you aid the occupation.

I'm aware that the Israeli and Jewish populations have more than one mind. I've pointed that out on a number of threads, some of which you've posted one.

siuin wrote:

......., it's to engender a feeling of mutual desire to live quiet and peaceful lives.

I find it hard to see how its possible to do that while maintaining a colonial policy.

BrokenArrows

Had to Google the word "remonstrated" which was used in the ops linked article.

kraggy

Siuin wrote: »

Yes, and I am Jewish- my people, my conflict. FYI I also have family and friends over there. Pity I can't say the same for this Galway loser.

Are you Irish or Israeli? Because if you're Irish, then it ain't "your conflict".
Religion is irrelevant.

belcampprisoner

reminds me of northern ireland

Siuin

kraggy wrote: »

Are you Irish or Israeli? Because if you're Irish, then it ain't "your conflict".
Religion is irrelevant.

I completely disagree- any Jew or person of Jewish grandparents is entitled to be an Israeli- I am getting my citizenship next year and have vested interests in the country due to friends and family living there. It's not as clear cut as you would like to portray.

Nodin wrote: »

How did you come to that conclusion?

If you aid an army of occupation, you aid the occupation.

I'm aware that the Israeli and Jewish populations have more than one mind. I've pointed that out on a number of threads, some of which you've posted one.

I find it hard to see how its possible to do that while maintaining a colonial policy.

The army is merely a tool of the government- the government decides what agenda to pursue and they simply deal with it. I find it so amusing how you can be so damning of Israel while only a few posts ago dismissed Hamas' actions of using violence to achieve their aims as 'perfectly valid.' Just goes to show the sickening double standard which exists for people like you.

Spanish Harlem

Two relevant news stories I was reading on the BBC this morning...

A glimpse of a future Palestinian state. Run by a terrorist organisation, segregation of boys and girls (children!) by law, men banned from cutting women's hair...A liberal's wet dream, I'm sure.

Syria...I'm sure the hippy flotilla is currently on it's way to save the day. Galway's hardman will be on board updating his twitter and instagramming photos.

smurgen

Siuin wrote: »

I completely disagree- any Jew or person of Jewish grandparents is entitled to be an Israeli- I am getting my citizenship next year and have vested interests in the country due to friends and family living there. It's not as clear cut as you would like to portray."

you remind me of the rich Irish American's who'd donate money to fund the IRA. Plastic paddies who just enflamed the whole situation without putting in much thought about the gravity of their actions.

Seaneh

Principal Skinner wrote: »

They were caught on video attacking them with sticks and knives......

The only reason these do-gooders go to Israeli controlled places is because they know the Israelis won't purposefly harm them unless provoked. Why don't these people ever go to Syria or Iran or North Korea?

Defending themselves from an illegal boarding of their ships in international water?

How very dare they!

VinLieger

Ugh this thread has gotten to the impossible to avoid stage of every debate regarding israel and palestine where both sides sound as unreasonable and dogmatic as the other and both look equally as awful

Seaneh

Siuin wrote: »

Not sure if I should even reply to such a childish post, but all the same... I must firstly mention that I'm personally not in favour of the settlements in the West Bank. However I view the continuation of settlement building as a political and not a military issue. I aided the IDF because I'm a Zionist and I believe in maintaining a Jewish presence in the land of Israel. I also believe in creating to the greater good of the Jewish community. That doesn't mean that I take onboard every single decision made by the Israeli government- believe it or not, Israelis do not simply operate with one homogeneous mind.

I don't believe that these kinds of outside agitators help anyone- Israelis OR Palestinians. All they do is stoke the fire of a pre-existing conflict so that they can play the game and get a little thrill out of it all. Real progression will only be made if Israelis and Palestinians are truly willing to bring about the changes which are necessary. Internationals like the Galway dude only act to inflame the situation and add to feelings of bitterness and resentment. The more internationals butt into the conflict, the more convinced Israel will become that the world is against them and the more they will exist upon flying in the face of international opinion. The goal is not to create an atmosphere of 'them' versus 'us', it's to engender a feeling of mutual desire to live quiet and peaceful lives.

So the international community needs to "butt out" of the conflict?

Does that mean that the US should stop giving Israel $8million per day in military aid and remove the €30billion plidged over the next decade?

I think that's a great idea as well, in fairness.
The US has it's own **** to deal with, there is still the aftermath of 2 hurricanes which haven't been cleaned up, I'm sure the US tax payer will be delighted they won't be funding war crimes and ethnic cleansing instead of looking after themselves first.

Seaneh

Spanish Harlem wrote: »

Two relevant news stories I was reading on the BBC this morning...

A glimpse of a future Palestinian state. Run by a terrorist organisation, segregation of boys and girls (children!) by law, men banned from cutting women's hair...A liberal's wet dream, I'm sure.

Syria...I'm sure the hippy flotilla is currently on it's way to save the day. Galway's hardman will be on board updating his twitter and instagramming photos.

First of all Hamas don't control all of Palestine, they control Gaza, and only because the US and Israel tried to force them out of the Palestinian Unity Government, which lead to them leaving said unity government and cutting ties with the PA and Abbas and Duwaik. the populaton of Gaza is smaller than the population of the west bank, Hamas has next to no following in the west bank, in the event of a Free Palestinian state, Hamas would not be in power, ever. In fact, with a free Palestinian state, the need for Hamas to exist in the minds of Palestinian people ends and Hamas no longer has any influence.

Second of all, you need to look into the history of Hamas, especially from the early to mid 90's and see where their money came from, who armed them and who promoted them as an alternative to the PLO, what you find might not sit well with you.

Spanish Harlem

Seaneh wrote: »

First of all Hamas don't control all of Palestine, they control Gaza, and only because the US and Israel tried to force them out of the Palestinian Unity Government, which lead to them leaving said unity government and cutting ties with the PA and Abbas and Duwaik. the populaton of Gaza is smaller than the population of the west bank, Hamas has next to no following in the west bank, in the event of a Free Palestinian state, Hamas would not be in power, ever. In fact, with a free Palestinian state, the need for Hamas to exist in the minds of Palestinian people ends and Hamas no longer has any influence.

Second of all, you need to look into the history of Hamas, especially from the early to mid 90's and see where their money came from, who armed them and who promoted them as an alternative to the PLO, what you find might not sit well with you.

Umm thanks for answering a question that nobody asked. I'm aware of the history of Hamas/Gaza (most obese population on Earth) and Fatah/West Bank.

I guess you're never going to answer this question though.

The only reason these do-gooders go to Israeli controlled places is because they know the Israelis won't purposefly harm them unless provoked. Why don't these people ever go to Syria or Iran or North Korea?

Seaneh

I've been to Syria, Damascus was lovely.

And I retorted the idea that Hamas will be the ruling power of a future palestinian state, that is nonsense, clearly.

Spanish Harlem

Cool. Did you upload the photos to FaceBook?

Seaneh

Spanish Harlem wrote: »

Cool. Did you upload the photos to FaceBook?

Yeah, I planked on Bashar al-Assad's head, got 213 likes and 14 comments.

kraggy

Siuin wrote: »

I completely disagree- any Jew or person of Jewish grandparents is entitled to be an Israeli- I am getting my citizenship next year and have vested interests in the country due to friends and family living there. It's not as clear cut as you would like to portray.

I have an uncle in America. He's Catholic. I was raised a Catholic. If the US and North Korea go to war, it's not my conflict. Not even close.

The whole thing about Jewish people from all corners of the globe being entitled to a passport does not make it non-Israeli Jews' conflict. That's just a ridiculous and unique arrangement whereby the Jewish Israeli population gets artificially inflated with Jewish passport-holders whose only experience of living Israel was on a 2 week summer holiday during college, while the Palestinians, who have been living there all their lives, are deprived of their own nationhood and their own land.

Siuin

And boards descends into its usual biased rhetoric :rolleyes: It's impossible to compare Catholics in America to Jews in Israel- they have completely different histories, different citizenship laws and tbh using such an example givenis pretty telling of how little people here actually understand of the situation in Israel.

But yes, continue to chase your tails- I have packing to do for a flight to Israel tomorrow morning

smurgen

Siuin wrote: »

And boards descends into its usual biased rhetoric :rolleyes: It's impossible to compare Catholics in America to Jews in Israel- they have completely different histories, different citizenship laws and tbh using such an example givenis pretty telling of how little people here actually understand of the situation in Israel.

But yes, continue to chase your tails- I have packing to do for a flight to Israel tomorrow morning

yeah we have noooooooooo idea!the situation is just so complicated that you have to be jewish, persecuted and living under threat from vicious muslims to understand. i mean after all, what would us Irish know about colonisation and it's effects right?

karma_

Siuin wrote: »

And boards descends into its usual biased rhetoric :rolleyes: It's impossible to compare Catholics in America to Jews in Israel- they have completely different histories, different citizenship laws and tbh using such an example givenis pretty telling of how little people here actually understand of the situation in Israel.

But yes, continue to chase your tails- I have packing to do for a flight to Israel tomorrow morning

Is a Galway man not 'your people' also? Being that is you are Irish.

What makes him a 'loser'?

In fairness, I get a distinct odour of hypocrisy from your posts in this thread.

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

O - look who it is. Do please quote where I referred to anyone as evil.

This contains what the IDF does,aids and abets.

http://www.btselem.org/list_of_topics

So we can take it you don't really think the IDF are all evil...is it perhaps only 1%.....50% ...or..?

Post #152 ?

Nodin: I never understood the notion that there should be "balance". One side is colonising the other, colonialism=evil and that's that, really. I don't give a ****e whether its indonesians or Israelis doing it.

Ah sorry Petal,I did'nt mean to rain on your parade :rolleyes:

Mind you I can see you do have an antipathy towards all this oul "Balance" stuff,so both of our imbalances will most likely balance each other out in the end....?

Nodin

Siuin wrote: »

The army is merely a tool of the government- the government decides what agenda to pursue and they simply deal with it. I find it so amusing how you can be so damning of Israel while only a few posts ago dismissed Hamas' actions of using violence to achieve their aims as 'perfectly valid.' Just goes to show the sickening double standard which exists for people like you.

As I explained earlier, colonialism and expansionism is an outdated and immoral concept with no place in the modern world. Thus its unnacceptable, as is any means put towards it, seemingly harmless or otherwise.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83937498&postcount=154

Aleksmart wrote:

Ah sorry Petal,I did'nt mean to rain on your parade

Grasping at straws as usual?

So colonialism isn't evil? Fascinating. Do please explain this.

G Power

Siuin wrote: »

These eejits claims to be protesting 'peacefully' - not possible to do that in Ireland too? Probably won't make you famous, though :rolleyes:

he's a very busy protestor in Galway actually, pity there's still so few of us doing it though, if we had a bit more support from everyone we'd all be in a much better position than we're in right now

AlekSmart

G Power wrote: »

he's a very busy protestor in Galway actually, pity there's still so few of us doing it though, if we had a bit more support from everyone we'd all be in a much better position than we're in right now

Maybe,just maybe,those who could be supporting all the protesting are equally "very busy" doing other stuff....working ,perhaps ?

If the people want to support ye they will,if they don't they won't.

tayto lover

Siuin wrote: »

And boards descends into its usual biased rhetoric :rolleyes: It's impossible to compare Catholics in America to Jews in Israel- they have completely different histories, different citizenship laws and tbh using such an example givenis pretty telling of how little people here actually understand of the situation in Israel.

But yes, continue to chase your tails- I have packing to do for a flight to Israel tomorrow morning

Maybe you could explain to me how the Jews who suffered so much at the hands of the Nazis can now heap such cruelty on the Palestinians? Have they learned nothing?

AlekSmart

Nodin wrote: »

As I explained earlier, colonialism and expansionism is an outdated and immoral concept with no place in the modern world. Thus its unnacceptable, as is any means put towards it, seemingly harmless or otherwise.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83937498&postcount=154

Grasping at straws as usual?

So colonialism isn't evil? Fascinating. Do please explain this.

Very few straws left intact after you've finished graspin your self,Nodin.

All this talk about Colonialism (Big C of course) being outdated and immoral is all well and good,as long as you add ...In MY Opinion etc etc...?

Ye asked where ye referred to people as Evil and ye got a response,or was it a different kind of "Evil" you meant ?

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Very few straws left intact after you've finished graspin your self,Nodin.

All this talk about Colonialism (Big C of course) being outdated and immoral is all well and good,as long as you add ...In MY Opinion etc etc...?

Ye asked where ye referred to people as Evil and ye got a response,or was it a different kind of "Evil" you meant ?

So everyone who partakes in furthering an evil system is evil? News to me. I'd no idea that 100% of Russians, Brits, Germans etc were so easily categorised.

And no, its not "in my opinion" that colonialism is an outdated and immoral concept. Are you saying that it isn't? Or are you just blathering on for the sake of it in the vague hope of getting a dig in.

end of the road

Siuin wrote: »

The more internationals butt into the conflict, the more convinced Israel will become that the world is against them and the more they will exist upon flying in the face of international opinion.

their doing that anyway, infact they started doing that years ago, the only reason israel has support from anyone over its war crimes is because governments are afraid they will be accused of being anti-jewish for not supporting them, theirs to many vested interests as well forcing governments to give some support to the war laurds/blood hounds in israel.