Time to vote FF

garhjw

Is this thread an Aprils fools joke? Vote for FF? If you are considering voting for them, maybe consider emigrating instead

If FF are in government after the next election, I can honestly see myself never moving back to Ireland. To be honest, it would make ashamed to be irish, on a par with Sinn Fein getting into government.

seanl77

I live in north tipperary, a real hotbed of political incompetence and 15,000 people that give their first preference to the most corrupt politician in recent irish history....and thats a fair achievement! Have no idea who FF will run in the next election, not that i would vote for them anyway. The FG TD rarely leaves his own area and has nothing to do with the rest of his constituency, the labour TD has broken every single pre-election promise he made ie no child benefit cuts, no property tax, protecting the services in nenagh hospital etc. That leaves the famous Lowry and a random couple of independents......... a fantastic selection!

StillWaters

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If FF are in government after the next election, I can honestly see myself never moving back to Ireland. To be honest, it would make ashamed to be irish, on a par with Sinn Fein getting into government.

Can see a FF/SF coalitition myself. Shiver in my spine as I type it, but I think its a possibility.

Anynama141

StillWaters wrote: »

Can see a FF/SF coalitition myself. Shiver in my spine as I type it, but I think its a possibility.

People want easy answers, and they will get them under SF/FF. Everyone knows that doing the easy thing always leads to long-term success.

johnnyskeleton

oscarBravo wrote: »

So vote for someone who isn't a crook or a thief.

I think the problem in turn is that anyone principled and honest doesn't survive long in politics. It's an expensive business getting elected, so you either join a party and put your own views aside in favor of the party leaders, or else you run independent and have to pay a large amount of cash to get yourself known etc.

StillWaters

StillWaters wrote: »

Can see a FF/SF coalitition myself. Shiver in my spine as I type it, but I think its a possibility.

Definitely a banana republic.

StudentDad

Vote FF or jump into river full of hungry crocodiles? Mmmmm I'll have the crocs please Dave.

SD

daithi1970

Ming is the answer.

Now, what was the question again?

melekalikimaka

spoiling votes is stupidity of the highest order, akin to "i dont understand the lisbon treaty so i'm gonna vote no", silly tactics with no thought, if you dont feel anyone is suitable, abstain from voting, muddying the figures isnt a noble gesture, its almost a hard man action to boast about in the pub imo

gutteruu

If the polls read 80% spoiled votes, you don't think people would ask why? You think its better to stay at home and let people vote in FF again. (which is what is obviously going to happen) Spoiling is a valid expression and does make a point to those who understand it.

COYW

Deleted User wrote: »

If FF are in government after the next election, I can honestly see myself never moving back to Ireland. To be honest, it would make ashamed to be irish, on a par with Sinn Fein getting into government.

I agree but I think it will be a very close run thing, judging by the current trends in voting. It'll either by FF & independents or FG & independents & maybe what is left of Labour. Neither will risk a coalition with SF or the ULA.

KyussBishop

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and there's the problem in a nutshell - hatrickpatrick, unless your complete redesign involves a replacement for democracy, you're setting yourself up for bitter disappointment.

The problem with Irish politics is the Irish electorate. Until we figure that out, we'll continue to waste our energy whining about how crap our politicians are.

As much as the electorate is to blame for FF, it doesn't really make sense to blame the electorate for the whole problem like that, when there aren't really any good alternative parties at all.

I don't see what recognition of problems in the electorate will do, when we have the same limited pool of politicians to choose from; focusing on politicians seems the thing to do, including encouraging them to split from and dissolve archaic parties like FF.

There's not any reason to have anything to do with FF these days, other than a career-minded lack of principals.

OCorcrainn

Typical bullsh*t people from Fianna Failure, FF supporters and the rest of their ilk:

"Better the devil you know than the devil you don't"


People fail to realise that the Meath-East result is not an indicator of a surge in Fianna Fáíl support, this is the second election in a row in Meat East that Fianna Failure have lost.


Thanks but no thanks I am willing along with a significant amount of people to give Sinn Féin and others a chance to prove themselves in government.

Anynama141

KyussBishop wrote: »

As much as the electorate is to blame for FF, it doesn't really make sense to blame the electorate for the whole problem like that, when there aren't really any good alternative parties at all.

Where do these parties (or the lack thereof) come from?

Which parties do you want to see as options to vote for?

StillWaters

gutteruu wrote: »

If the polls read 80% spoiled votes, you don't think people would ask why? You think its better to stay at home and let people vote in FF again. (which is what is obviously going to happen) Spoiling is a valid expression and does make a point to those who understand it.

No, the 20% would dictate the Government. Spolied votes do not make a point. They are seen once by each parties Director of Elections. They mean nothing, but a shared laugh maybe if its a particularly witty one. The vast majority of spoiled votes btw are by voters who dont know how to vote, 3 xs etc.

Hopefully by the next time a FF government comes into power in Ireland, I will be watching the ignorance unfold from the safety of a foreign country.

COYW

OCorcrainn wrote: »

People fail to realise that the Meath-East result is not an indicator of a surge in Fianna Fáíl support, this is the second election in a row in Meat East that Fianna Failure have lost.

The Meath-East result along with pretty much every media poll gauging political opinion indicates a surge in support for FF. One can debate the validity of the media polls on their own, given the sample sizes, but the rise in votes that FF received in Meath-East coupled with the national media polls shows that support for FF is on the rise again.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Thanks but no thanks I am willing along with a significant amount of people to give Sinn Féin and others a chance to prove themselves in government.

Whatever about the others, neither FF nor FG will not talk to SF when the time comes to form the next government. They will be in opposition. SF weren't consulted in the formation of the current government, if you recall. FG completely ignored them. They would be destroyed, if they ever got into government.

thebman

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and there's the problem in a nutshell - hatrickpatrick, unless your complete redesign involves a replacement for democracy, you're setting yourself up for bitter disappointment.

The problem with Irish politics is the Irish electorate. Until we figure that out, we'll continue to waste our energy whining about how crap our politicians are.

I think the problem in Ireland is that most people in politics blames the electorate for the problems with the structure of our political system.

It is a cope out to blame the electorate who feel they have to vote on local issues at national level in order to get anything done at local level.

That is a problem with the system not the electorate... who have just worked out how the system works.

The other problem is that once politicians learn how to game the system to get elected they are unlikely to reform it.

tayto lover

StillWaters wrote: »

Tayto, the ultimate floater voter....

I have always voted for the person/party I thought would be best for the country.
I am not a follower of any particular party and have always voted with my head.
However after the last 3/4 general Elections I feel we have been conned. Nothing but lies told.
That's why i distrust politics now. All self-serving as far as I can see.

Anynama141

thebman wrote: »

I think the problem in Ireland is that most people in politics blames the electorate for the problems with the structure of our political system.

It is a cope out to blame the electorate who feel they have to vote on local issues at national level in order to get anything done at local level.

That is a problem with the system not the electorate... who have just worked out how the system works.

The other problem is that once politicians learn how to game the system to get elected they are unlikely to reform it.

If the electorate was intelligent, the problems with the system could be obviated. On the other hand, it's almost impossible to design a system that will cope with a short-sighted, self-interested and ignorant electorate.

COYW

Anynama141 wrote: »

If the electorate was intelligent, the problems with the system could be obviated. On the other hand, it's almost impossible to design a system that will cope with a short-sighted, self-interested and ignorant electorate.

How could the system be altered in a positive way?

Also, I think that is very unfair on the electorate. They are intelligent enough to know how to work the political system to their benefit when they need it! Countless people vote for politicians because the helped them out with a housing issue, medical card or such.

Anynama141

COYW wrote: »

How could the system be altered in a positive way? Also, I think that is very unfair on the electorate. They are intelligent enough to know how to work the political system to their benefit when they need it! How many people vote for politicians because the helped them out with x, y or z.

A difficult question to answer in a short forum post, COYW! Suffice it to say that it is always in the electorate's interest to work the political system to their benefit - by electing competent governments who run the country to benefit all of society. And yet they don't do it...

Alpha Dog 1

How could anyone contemplate voting for ff?
I really wish there was a new party formed with alternative motives.
I couldn't bring myself to vote for any of the current crop.

Judgement Day

We should be careful what we wish for. I heard Declan Ganley (ex.founder of Libertas) on Newstalk this evening and he is talking up the idea of a another new political party. Ganely's an International Man of Mystery and a business partner of another mystery man - Constantin Gurdgiev (one of Vincent Browne's favourite panellists on TV3), and an 'admirer' of Michael "Last Sting of a Dying Wasp' McDowell the failed PD politician. Some party that would be - count me out. :rolleyes:

Anynama141

Judgement Day wrote: »

We should be careful what we wish for. I heard Declan Ganley (ex.founder of Libertas) on Newstalk this evening and he is talking up the idea of a another new political party. Ganely's an International Man of Mystery and a business partner of another mystery man - Constantin Gurdgiev (one of Vincent Browne's favourite panellists on TV3), and an 'admirer' of Michael "Last Sting of a Dying Wasp' McDowell the failed PD politician. Some party that would be - count me out. :rolleyes:

The Irish political landscape looks like this (economically - not necessarily socially):

Far right: Nothing/Fianna Fail
Right wing: FG/Fianna Fail
Centrist: Nothing/Fianna Fail
Left Wing: Labour, Greens, Sinn Fein/Fianna Fail
Far Left: People Before Profit/ULA/other fringe groups/Fianna Fail

Aside from Fianna Failure, who are all things to all men depending on the day and what way they think public opinion is on that day, there is a gap on the conservative side to the right of FG and in the centre. The current FG/LAB coalition is pretty centrist and arguably somewhat left of centre at present.

raymon

Judgement Day wrote: »

FF lest some of you forget is the party that brought you Charlie Haughey, Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, Bertie Ahern, Sean "Fixer" Doherty, Albert Reynolds, Ray McSharry, Charlie McCreevy, Padraig Flynn (and daughter Beverly)....the list is endless and over such a long period of time that even bitter, twisted me has begun to forget some of the names. That is of course what they rely on - the electorate being punch drunk from scandal and crises....

Plenty more reasons here: http://thatsireland.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/fianna-fails-fifty-ways-to-laugh-at-voters/ to never vote for FF ever again. The party should be a 'proscribed' organisation and Section 31 of the Broadcasting Act reinstated for the ****ers. :mad:

Don't forget Michael Martin and Willie o Dea

thebman

Anynama141 wrote: »

If the electorate was intelligent, the problems with the system could be obviated. On the other hand, it's almost impossible to design a system that will cope with a short-sighted, self-interested and ignorant electorate.

The above is pure nonsense. Might be your thoughts on the subject but why do you think the Irish electorate are dumber than those of countries?

Or more self-interested.

it is pure nonsense, the Irish are not so special...

Anynama141

thebman wrote: »

The above is pure nonsense. Might be your thoughts on the subject but why do you think the Irish electorate are dumber than those of countries?

Please quote where I said that. Or withdraw the claim.

thebman

Anynama141 wrote: »

Please quote where I said that. Or withdraw the claim.

I don't care to get into a ridiculous argument with you, not worth my time.

What you wrote is clearly quoted. If you want to weasel out of what you said then fine ... go nuts.

Anynama141

thebman wrote: »

I don't care to get into a ridiculous argument with you, not worth my time.

What you wrote is clearly quoted. If you want to weasel out of what you said then fine ... go nuts.

You could have escaped with some dignity, but chose not to. Well played.

Why do people have a fear of admitting a mistake on an anonymous forum? Bizarre.

MrPoker

The next election will be very telling how we as a nation think. I'm getting extremely worried by the rise in popularity of FF in the polls. I find it hard to believe when I hear people giving out about the current government and blaming them for the mess we are in. Some people really have short memories. I want to stay here and work through these difficult times having seen friends forced to go abroad however if FF get voted into the next government I think I will follow.

Never will I forget what the FF crooks have done to this country. I am undecided who to vote in 2016 but understand the difficult task FG took on when they went into government and some of the choices they have had to make in the last couple of years.

hyperborean

Judgement Day wrote: »

We should be careful what we wish for. I heard Declan Ganley (ex.founder of Libertas) on Newstalk this evening and he is talking up the idea of a another new political party. Ganely's an International Man of Mystery and a business partner of another mystery man - Constantin Gurdgiev (one of Vincent Browne's favourite panellists on TV3), and an 'admirer' of Michael "Last Sting of a Dying Wasp' McDowell the failed PD politician. Some party that would be - count me out. :rolleyes:

Declan Ganley, Constantin Gurdiev and Micheal McDowell,

I might be persuaded to consider this party,

COYW

Anynama141 wrote: »

A difficult question to answer in a short forum post, COYW! Suffice it to say that it is always in the electorate's interest to work the political system to their benefit - by electing competent governments who run the country to benefit all of society. And yet they don't do it...

I agree with what you are saying but we/you are talking about a change in Irish culture, which is a massive ask.

Judgement Day wrote: »

We should be careful what we wish for. I heard Declan Ganley (ex.founder of Libertas) on Newstalk this evening and he is talking up the idea of a another new political party. Ganely's an International Man of Mystery and a business partner of another mystery man - Constantin Gurdgiev (one of Vincent Browne's favourite panellists on TV3), and an 'admirer' of Michael "Last Sting of a Dying Wasp' McDowell the failed PD politician. Some party that would be - count me out. :rolleyes:

I am happy to see any new party which alters/shakes up the face of Irish politics. I'm not sure people would go for such a party though. Intelligent and successful are two qualities that Irish people do not like in their politicians.

Anynama141 wrote: »

The Irish political landscape looks like this (economically - not necessarily socially):

Far right: Nothing/Fianna Fail
Right wing: FG/Fianna Fail
Centrist: Nothing/Fianna Fail
Left Wing: Labour, Greens, Sinn Fein/Fianna Fail
Far Left: People Before Profit/ULA/other fringe groups/Fianna Fail

Aside from Fianna Failure, who are all things to all men depending on the day and what way they think public opinion is on that day, there is a gap on the conservative side to the right of FG and in the centre. The current FG/LAB coalition is pretty centrist and arguably somewhat left of centre at present.

Far right, right wing in Irish politics? I think not.

T runner

hyperborean wrote: »

In the last 22 years of eligibility I have always used my vote, voting left for the greens and labour with the odd protest (ignorant youth) vote to SF in my early years.

It occurs to me that come the next election we are going to see the unthinkable, a FF led government and I might just be one of the people who give them a vote
Currently the labour vote has collapsed and FG are static, there are many reasons for this, mainly incompetence in office from both parties but also importantly the fact people are struggling to pay back what they borrowed and are not willing to accept responsibility so the government will have to take the blame . Labour, despite their recent success (2011 GE) only ever had a support base of 10-12% nationwide and mainly Urban , they got a lot of anti FG votes during the 2011 GE which has dissipated now. FG are FG, in their history they have never been much more than opposition to FF, FF lite is probably apt as they are less organised and have less talent.
Urban voters know this and can see the FG machine deflect (ala FF) problems onto the minor partner so they will not move to FG, actually they will never move to FG, this leaves FF and SF

FF, now they ****ed the country big time by allowing the wishes of the electorate to dictate policy, a good government uses policy to stabilise and strengthen both the economy and society, is there a chance they learned from from their mistakes?

SF, no no no no..... in their current form they can never be allowed to enter government. Although the swing of left from labour and ex FF is strengthening for the moment common sense will prevail and they will end up on maybe 10%, and on the periphery.

The other eejits, ming and his crew will see a dramatic drop next election as the old status quo returns... and thankfully.

So back to my reasoning, FG are going to push for majority next time but will fall well short because the longer they are in office the clearer their failing are becoming, labour wont enter government with FG as I believe they will have some internal problems to sort out ( a push against the old) and the vast majority of the swing to labour will go back to FF, SF are economically illiterate and have a support base of emotive spouting malcontents who make it very easy to dislike them, so in truth there is only one way to change and that is to revert to type, the most organised and experienced political machine in Irish history might just be what is needed to sort out the mess they caused in the first place.

so FF and probably next time round boys and girls

Any one want to explain why I shouldn't vote for FF next time? Or where the gaping holes are in my Saturday morning synopsis?

Is there any alternative?

A reason for not voting FF is that they have not demonstrated that they have adequately addressed the issues that contributed to the massive meltdown of our economy and the subsequent bailout.
If they return to power without serious demonstrated reform then it gives the message that in this country you can literally ruin the economy and return to power after a term in the cold, with no need to change.

That said we have serious issues with our political system and structure. It is evidently hugely difficult for a new party to emerge in this system. New candidates tend to be independents, with limited power and the same old party players with the same old loyalties are always there...

Add to this the fact that Irish people are innately conservative and you can see why the system will not change so FF who could have dissappeared altogether arguably may well return to power after only 1 term out.

The most recent example: In the Meath east by-election the daughter of a previous TD was elected. This type of old style parish pump voting was villified by the "liberal" Dublin media after the crash. Now, it doesn't raise an eyebrow: an RTE reporter lead a question to a FG politician wondering if the result demonstrated that gender quotas were unnecessary. He heartily agreed! Regardless of ones opinions on quotas, another female TD getting elected solely due being related to a male TD is not an argument against them.

Just an example of the conservatism within Irish society which means a rigid political system that doesn't get the talent out will not change (by quotas OR Lists OR any bloody change to get us more talented, new and representative people and political parties).

Politicians dont want it, Journalists don't want it and lastly the people don't want it.

So within a system where the players will never change what do you do with FF?

Punish them for one more term at least. At least that will tell the political class that cock ups are severly punished. Doing anything else just encourages the populist policies that caused the meltdown.

T runner

Anynama141 wrote: »

A difficult question to answer in a short forum post, COYW! Suffice it to say that it is always in the electorate's interest to work the political system to their benefit - by electing competent governments who run the country to benefit all of society. And yet they don't do it...

The system dictates that TD's are basically glorified county councillors more interested in local politics than national. Politicians made these changes early in the state's history because they did not trust councillors and thought it better that local power was held by their local TDs and national power was ultimately held by a few men in government.

The TDs don't engage in parish pump politics because people demand it: They do it because that is the system that they created.

The geographical quota system is never questioned.

The people see that TDs have little national power and lots of local power so they vote accordingly.

The list of candidates for each election is no better than the list of TDs. The choice for national politicians isnt there.

Add to this the fact that politics is closed to all but a few professions, to most women and to many men with a passing interest in child rearing and the choice is further culled.

We are an innately conservative society so it is very difficult for people who want change to effect it.

So history, political structure, rigidity, choice, effective representation etc all play a role. To say that the intelligence of the electorate dictates accurately the political system is too simplistic and ignores all the other independent barriers to change.

StudentDad

I've always considered the main parties in Ireland to be a bit like a monopoly (of state power). If FF are in they'll be guaranteed to look after the interests of A and B and if FG are in they'll look after the interests of A and B. A being FF and B being FG.

Anyone else who falls outside the 'circle' can whistle.

Both parties are a bit like a dog with a bone ... they share it occasionally but their priority is to ensure no other party gets the bone.

Not that they want to do anything with said bone.
Their priority is to ensure no other party does!

SD

BuilderPlumber

The last two governments have utterly failed Ireland. They have disobeyed their mandate for the people thus they are dictators. Ireland could rapidly slide the way of other countries like Iran and African states if unchecked. Do we need egotistical political dynasties who are ultimately incompletent and repressive who will enhance our status as the North Korea of Europe? Or can we have some caring, decent, honest people who can distribute wealth and give us the jobs we need.

Ireland is more than a nasty government - it is a nasty, uncaring society. Which means other countries with nasty governments but a caring populance like Iran are actually better places and have a better future once their dictators are gone. BUT Ireland has nasty people in charge outside of government too.

Employers are too powerful and employees have no rights. James Connolly would be turning in his grave and Jim Larkin too. Banks are a disgrace, heads of colleges a disgrace too, the HSE management also bad. They treat workers VERY POORLY and can fire them at will and only keep them on probation contracts. Even unions and even student unions are the same self serving entities. This CRAP needs to go and the power put back into the hands of workers and families and the poor and middle class should be allowed develop.

A government needs to be elected to take on this head on and kill it. Uncaring societies are always corrupt and the corruption transcends the regime itself. Whoever is the next government - FF, FG, whoever - needs to know this and get rid of dictatorial society and corruption at all levels.

We should also remember: A politician is elected by YOU to serve YOU. So, if you are a local business, the politician should send business your way; if you are an actor, singer, author, etc. the politician is your promoter. If you want a job, the politician should set up a plan of action to get you a job. And this service should be done for ALL not just cronies. Because ALL the people elected the politician if got them a job so they need to return that favour. Lip service is paid to the people via backslapping and clinics but nothing sincere. It is time to put sincerity back into Irish politics.

Anynama141

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Employers are too powerful and employees have no rights. James Connolly would be turning in his grave and Jim Larkin too.

Just on a point of information: employees have never had so many rights, anywhere in human history.

BuilderPlumber

Anynama141 wrote: »

Just on a point of information: employees have never had so many rights, anywhere in human history.

BUT not the real right: permanent job and stability. the power rests in the employer to get rid of people.

Anynama141

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

BUT not the real right: permanent job and stability. the power rests in the employer to get rid of people.

When did that ever exist?

And why should an employer be stuck with someone forever? How is that fair?

raymon

As we saw in Meath east , FF were defeated. However because all the other voters stayed tucked up in bed , FF came second.

Their weak candidate Thomas Byrne came second because the core FF voter went to the polling station. Core FG did too.

Staying in bed is not a protest vote. Spoiling your ballot is not a protest vote.

To make a protest against FF ( or FG ) you must vote for your protest candidate, or become a candidate yourself.

Srianadh

FF members have been bleating on about internal party reforms and how grassroots members are now decision makers (hinting that civil servants had an inordinate say in policy before this). If it's true, I'd very much welcome that........if it's true. After all, most of us know members of all political parties and they, by in large, are ordinary decent folk. I remain to be convinced though but am at a loss as to who to vote for. Labour have badly let me down. They have done the exact opposite of what they promised. Sinn Féin are more populist than F at their worst. Nothing they say makes sense in reality. FG seem to be happy to hit the poor whilst letting the super wealthy off scot free. Independents won't work together and by in large (Ross and Donnelly being exceptions) are nothing more than jumped up Councillors. DDI.......the less said the better!

FF are in transition but if they are to have any future they need that transition to bring them out with a Lemass-ian type party. If we end up back at Ahern/Cowen FF though then it'll be time to put them on the scrap heap. Positives are their joining ALDE and support for gay marriage. Negatives is their personnel. It's the same old faces bar a few. They need fresh blood and fresh faces, most importantly with fresh ideas. If that were to happen, and I mean truly happen, then I might consider given them a preference (would still gall me to give them a #1 though). 3 years is a long time though. It's to early to even talk general election as Labour won't be in a hurry to collapse the Government. They've shown that they're there only for the pension and a go at power, nothing more.

Anynama141

Srianadh wrote: »

FF members have been bleating on about internal party reforms and how grassroots members are now decision makers (hinting that civil servants had an inordinate say in policy before this). If it's true, I'd very much welcome that........if it's true. After all, most of us know members of all political parties and they, by in large, are ordinary decent folk.

I know a few too, and they are cute hoors who joined the party to try to gain influence and favours for themselves, their businesses and their families.

BuilderPlumber

Anynama141 wrote: »

When did that ever exist?

And why should an employer be stuck with someone forever? How is that fair?

It is the only fair way. People should be guaranteed work in what they have studied, are skilled in. The right to work, eat and sleep and live in safety are rights not privileges. Job insecurity in Ireland has created the following very harmful affects:

1. A dole culture where people (often correctly) conclude social welfare is a better option than low paid work with degrading conditions. Most people in junior office jobs are treated like dirt by their bosses especially young accountants, solicitors and the like. I know people who worked in these and ended up depressed.
2. A tendency to speculate - where it is a given you have to make money by investing in things like shares and property because of job insecurity. This was actively encouraged but as we know sooner or later people get burned.
3. Lack of loyalty. If a firm is not loyal to an employee, how can they be loyal to the firm?
4. A do the minimum attitude - just do the bare minimum and no more because you feel that the contract is up in a few months and there is no point.

ALL this means poor overall performance and often an aversion to work. People should be treated as people not as tools.

Anynama141

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

It is the only fair way. People should be guaranteed work in what they have studied, are skilled in. The right to work, eat and sleep and live in safety are rights not privileges. Job insecurity in Ireland has created the following very harmful affects:

1. A dole culture where people (often correctly) conclude social welfare is a better option than low paid work with degrading conditions. Most people in junior office jobs are treated like dirt by their bosses especially young accountants, solicitors and the like. I know people who worked in these and ended up depressed.
2. A tendency to speculate - where it is a given you have to make money by investing in things like shares and property because of job insecurity. This was actively encouraged but as we know sooner or later people get burned.
3. Lack of loyalty. If a firm is not loyal to an employee, how can they be loyal to the firm?
4. A do the minimum attitude - just do the bare minimum and no more because you feel that the contract is up in a few months and there is no point.

ALL this means poor overall performance and often an aversion to work. People should be treated as people not as tools.

So forcing companies and individuals to hire people for life is a realistic solution? Would you hire some guy if it meant that you were stuck with him for 40 years?

oscarBravo

Anynama141 wrote: »

So forcing companies and individuals to hire people for life is a realistic solution? Would you hire some guy if it meant that you were stuck with him for 40 years?

I wouldn't even have started my business under those circumstances. I'll try to hold on to employees for as long as I can - I invest in them, and I want to get a return on that investment - but to be required by law to keep paying them, even when I can't afford to? Not a chance.

Anynama141

oscarBravo wrote: »

I wouldn't even have started my business under those circumstances. I'll try to hold on to employees for as long as I can - I invest in them, and I want to get a return on that investment - but to be required by law to keep paying them, even when I can't afford to? Not a chance.

This is what the easy answers crowd don't get - the harder you make it to fire an employee, the harder you make it for him to be hired in the first place.

BuilderPlumber

oscarBravo wrote: »

I wouldn't even have started my business under those circumstances. I'll try to hold on to employees for as long as I can - I invest in them, and I want to get a return on that investment - but to be required by law to keep paying them, even when I can't afford to? Not a chance.

No one said that you have to hire an employee for life. But the government should provide work for all - which was one of the good things about communism. The STATE owes a duty of care to all its citizens. If people can't get work in private enterprise, the state then should have plenty of work which is needed - and would be there if obscene salaries were cut for the arrogant people at the top.

Otherwise, unemployment remains a massive problem and talented people remain on social welfare and cannot achieve what they should because of the arrogant elite at the top.

Anynama141

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

No one said that you have to hire an employee for life. But the government should provide work for all - which was one of the good things about communism. The STATE owes a duty of care to all its citizens. If people can't get work in private enterprise, the state then should have plenty of work which is needed - and would be there if obscene salaries were cut for the arrogant people at the top.

Can you provide a list of successful communist countries? Ones that we might model our system on, like.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Otherwise, unemployment remains a massive problem and talented people remain on social welfare and cannot achieve what they should because of the arrogant elite at the top.

Is there any arrogant elite in communist countries?