Moderators attitude to my Posts

martinn123

I wish to register a complaint regarding Moderation, PM's etc regarding my posts in the Forum, Construction & Planning, and its sub forums. Also the recent threat of a Ban which is in ''conclave'' by the Mod's at present

Background

Since starting to post in this Forum in 2010, I have openly, as is my right, criticised the system of ''Certification'' in the Construction Industry.
Let's face it if you were a resident of Priory Hall, you would be upset with the Builder, Certifyers, Solicitors, and Bankers , who conned you into taking on a Zombie Mortgage.

Given that the Mod's in this Forum appear to be all Architectural Technicians, and a large number of contributors, are Architects, who issue Certs, this has not gone down well, to say the least.
Recent proposed changes to the Regulations, will place the responsibility on such Cert Issuing Individuals, and this is a cause of consternation within the Forum, much to my bemusement.

Threads

Recently, I commenced a thread, which was critical of the Attitude shown in the Forum, from Architects, towards Builders, I am in the Building Trade, Conservatories.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=83621025

In the course of this thread, a post comment was posted which I found personally offensive, as it Attacked the Poster not the Post, I reported this post.
Not receiving any response, I PM'd a Mod, not to intervene, but to explain the procedure.
The offensive post, came from another Mod, and this caused me to receive various threats of Ban's etc.

Eventually the Thread was tidied up, by various posts being removed, including a humorous post by me regarding another Mod, for which I apologised by PM unreservedly.

Current Thread

This week, I posted in a Thread regarding ''Log Cabins'' this is an area in which I have a personal, and Commercial interest, and I was interested in posts that such projects do not comply with Reg's
I asked for any Architects with ''live examples'' to perhaps post details, as my interest was to discover if any Products do meet the Reg's

Now my posts containing any reference to ''Certification'' gets the back up, of the Mod's given the above background.

A totally unwarranted ( in my view) warning was posted to one of my posts

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83898645&postcount=39

considering my post

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83898454&postcount=38

I complained by PM to this warning, and have received a threat of a Ban,
this threat contained the following

muffler wrote:

To be honest here the explanation you have given above is contradictory and based on your abysmal record of bans and warnings I dont believe what you have said.

To put this in context, with 1100 posts, I have accumulated 2 yellow cards, 2 Red Cards and 1, repeat 1, 7 day Ban

This ban was for posting off topic comments after an on thread warning, I immediately PM'd the Mod and apologized, and accepted the Ban

So I have an ''abysmal record of bans and warnings'' I am also a Liar.

So in summary I am dissatisfied with the treatment I have received over the past weeks from these Moderators.

I expect, no change in attitude, so am registering my complaint in this Forum, and await a response,,,,,,,,,,,however muted,,,,,,,,or unsupportive.

Finally, as this is a Bank Holiday, I of course expect no rapid response as you all all giving of your time voluntarily, but maybe as it's out there others will read and think about Moderation, in general

Shield

Hello martinn123,

This is just a courtesy post to let you know that I have informed the C&P mods of your thread here, as very few of boards' mods ever come in here unless that are made aware of a reason they need to be here.

It is fair to say that you can expect one of those mods to speak for all the others, instead of loads of cross-posting etc., and you can expect that to happen at least within the next 14 days, so just 'Follow' this thread and you will receive notifications when a new post has been made on here.

All you need to do is click the "Follow Thread" button over to the right hand side of the screen when you are outside of this thread. It is on the same level as the "Post Reply" button, but over to the right.

Shield

martinn123

Shield wrote: »

Hello martinn123,

This is just a courtesy post to let you know that I have informed the C&P mods of your thread here, as very few of boards' mods ever come in here unless that are made aware of a reason they need to be here.

It is fair to say that you can expect one of those mods to speak for all the others, instead of loads of cross-posting etc., and you can expect that to happen at least within the next 14 days, so just 'Follow' this thread and you will receive notifications when a new post has been made on here.

All you need to do is click the "Follow Thread" button over to the right hand side of the screen when you are outside of this thread. It is on the same level as the "Post Reply" button, but over to the right.

Shield

Hi Shield,

many thanks for your courteous reply.

So having posted a complaint regarding Moderation, it will be dealt with by the same Moderators.

i See........??

Shield

martinn123 wrote: »

So having posted a complaint regarding Moderation, it will be dealt with by the same Moderators.

i See........??

Initially yes. If you take a read of the Help Desk's charter which is out in the main forum and can be found here, you will see that the third point bullet point under the heading "What DOES this forum handle?" says that the first step in trying to resolve a problem with a moderator's decision/action is to first send them a PM to see if it can be resolved amicably without going down the more formal route.

What you can expect to happen next is one of the moderators from the forum in question will post a rebuttal, or their 'side' of things as they stand, and they will either state that they stand by every action they have made, be it a verbal warning, a formal 'yellow card' warning, or an infraction (also known as a red card).

If they don't post that, the only other thing they can post is some form of apology, and that on review of things, they believe they were wrong to give you a verbal warning, a yellow card or a red card, and that they are sorry, and will have those expunged from your membership record.

Please bear in mind that I'm not saying you will get either of the above in those exact words, but there are only two avenues that the forum moderators in question can go down - one is to stand by their actions, the other is to review their actions, decide they were wrong, and issue you with an apology. That's pretty much how all complaints end up: The mod reviews his/her actions and either upholds their initial decision to act the way they did, or they reverse their initial decision upon having a PM dialogue, and they have the warning/infraction reversed. This is why we encourage a PM discussion between two parties before taking things in here. Sometimes a PM exchange resolves the situation, sometimes not.

If the moderator(s) you refer to in your complaint decide to uphold their decision, then the matter is escalated to a more senior moderator, also known as a Category Moderator for (in this case) the "Rec" category, and they review arguments from both 'sides', and then decide that you have a case to argue, or that the forum moderators acted correctly and will post how and why they have arrived at that conclusion. Bear in mind that CMods (shorthand for Category Moderators) have overturned forum moderators in the past, so it is not, by any means, a foregone conclusion that they will agree with the C&P moderators.

If they do agree with the C&P mods, and you are still unhappy, you can request one of the site administrators to review your complaint from the ground up. This would be your final chance to bring anything and everything you want the site administrator to take in to account during their investigation. Their decision is final, and does not have a right of appeal, but again please bear in mind that site administrators have overturned a CMod's decision in the past either because something was overlooked, or not enough consideration was given to 'Issue #3', or something else. These are just examples by the way! I am aware that none of these may not apply in your case, which is why I'm just using examples.

I hope this is not too wordy, but I would sooner make sure now that you are fully aware of the Help Desk procedures and give you all the information you could do with now, as opposed to having a 'back and forth' with you on procedure, at a time when you should have been made aware of things before the investigation into your complaint(s) began.

If you have any more questions on Help Desk procedure, please feel free to post it here, or via PM, but bear in mind that Help Desk moderators don't get involved with the actual issues themselves. We just ensure people know the how, the what, the where and the when!

-Shield.

martinn123

Hi Shield,

Thank you for your most comprehensive reply,
Regards

And a Happy Easter, and thanks for taking time to reply on a holiday

martinn123

Penn

Hi martinn123,

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you on this. Between it being Easter and having to spend a bit of time reading through posts regarding this situation etc, it took a bit longer than expected.

Having discussed this with the mods and reading through several of your posts on the forum, there are a few things I would like to point out:

Since starting to post in this Forum in 2010, I have openly, as is my right, criticised the system of ''Certification'' in the Construction Industry.

Yes, you are free to criticise the system of Certification used in the Construction Industry. However, the extent to which you do so and the threads which you bring it up in where it doesn't need to be discussed comes across as you having an axe to grind. It has derailed threads, resulted in a lot of work for the mods to clean up threads, and is borderline soapboxing.

Given that the Mod's in this Forum appear to be all Architectural Technicians, and a large number of contributors, are Architects, who issue Certs, this has not gone down well, to say the least.
Recent proposed changes to the Regulations, will place the responsibility on such Cert Issuing Individuals, and this is a cause of consternation within the Forum, much to my bemusement.

The professions of the mods is irrelevant. However, using that to constantly take pot-shots at the mods is trolling. As I said, you seem to have a particular issue with regards certification. That's fine. But the extent to which you unnecessarily drag it up or make reference to it makes it seem like you're doing so for amusement, not bemusement.

Recently, I commenced a thread, which was critical of the Attitude shown in the Forum, from Architects, towards Builders, I am in the Building Trade, Conservatories.

Again, in line with my previous comments, your thread was another attempt to bring up the topic of certs and the professions of the mods. There are great builders out there, and there are bad builders. On the forum, people would mostly be inquiring about building defects or problems, because if a building is built right, there shouldn't be any real problems and therefore nothing worth posting about. That means there will always be a larger number of threads questioning the work of builders than praising the work of good builders. This is not indicative of an attitude towards builders in the forum.

In the course of this thread, a post comment was posted which I found personally offensive, as it Attacked the Poster not the Post, I reported this post.

Eventually the Thread was tidied up, by various posts being removed, including a humorous post by me regarding another Mod, for which I apologised by PM unreservedly.

I've seen the posts in question. The post you found offensive was a picture of tumbleweed, and the preceding posts were questioning if you had anything "substantive or constructive to contribute to this thread". That's a comment on your posts in the thread, not a comment about you. Therefore, it is attacking the post, not the poster.

Your posts in that thread included hinting that one of the mods was inbred (which with respect, you apologised for and reading it in the context of the thread, it is clear that it was tongue-in-cheek rather than intentionally offensive). However, this post by you in response to a mod concerned me even more:

martinn123 wrote: »

Jesus, someone's having a bad day.

Reminds me of.............Joined a Club once

It was run by Architects,

I criticised an Architect.

Was made to feel unwelcome.

I left the Club.

And NO, I do not have any ''hangups'' and I do not feel better being part of a crowd

I read that as being another unnecessary dig at the mods of the forum, in keeping with your general attitude towards the forum.

Regarding the "Log Cabin" thread, you persisted in pushing an query which nobody knew the answer to, and complained that you were "getting nowhere" when you didn't get a sufficient answer. You persisted in asking if anyone knew of any which would get certification, "based on any research say an Architect might have conducted", and your posts included further unnecessary digs regarding certification:

martinn123 wrote: »

Could you expand on this, please, are we talking specific changes in Reg's or the old Chestnut of '' In My Opinion'' where things were ''not apparent''

People had already stated on the thread that they didn't know of any such structure which would get certification based on the new Part L of the TGDs. Your continuous request for this was hijacking the thread which was a specific query by another poster.

Now, in fairness, you do not have a lot of warnings, infractions or bans. However, that does not include on-thread warnings and the amount of time which the mods have had to spend due to your posts, whether it be cleaning up threads, splitting threads which have been hijacked/derailed due to your continuous bringing up of certification and fees, or trying to explain to you what is and isn't acceptable.

As a result of the amount of work you cause the moderators, threads being hijacked or derailed, questioning mod actions on-thread and this agenda regarding certification and professional fees which you keep pushing, the moderators are requesting that you be permabanned from the forum.

While I'm inclined to agree with them having reviewed the case, I'm also willing to give you a second chance. Any more mention of professional fees, certification and the new laws regarding such, or the profession of the mods, and you'll be permabanned from the forum. I would strongly advise you to stay out of such threads altogether.

Let me know if this is agreeable or if you have any other comments on the matter.

martinn123

Penn wrote: »

Hi martinn123,

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you on this. Between it being Easter and having to spend a bit of time reading through posts regarding this situation etc, it took a bit longer than expected.

Having discussed this with the mods and reading through several of your posts on the forum, there are a few things I would like to point out:



Yes, you are free to criticise the system of Certification used in the Construction Industry. However, the extent to which you do so and the threads which you bring it up in where it doesn't need to be discussed comes across as you having an axe to grind. It has derailed threads, resulted in a lot of work for the mods to clean up threads, and is borderline soapboxing.



The professions of the mods is irrelevant. However, using that to constantly take pot-shots at the mods is trolling. As I said, you seem to have a particular issue with regards certification. That's fine. But the extent to which you unnecessarily drag it up or make reference to it makes it seem like you're doing so for amusement, not bemusement.



Again, in line with my previous comments, your thread was another attempt to bring up the topic of certs and the professions of the mods. There are great builders out there, and there are bad builders. On the forum, people would mostly be inquiring about building defects or problems, because if a building is built right, there shouldn't be any real problems and therefore nothing worth posting about. That means there will always be a larger number of threads questioning the work of builders than praising the work of good builders. This is not indicative of an attitude towards builders in the forum.



I've seen the posts in question. The post you found offensive was a picture of tumbleweed, and the preceding posts were questioning if you had anything "substantive or constructive to contribute to this thread". That's a comment on your posts in the thread, not a comment about you. Therefore, it is attacking the post, not the poster.

Your posts in that thread included hinting that one of the mods was inbred (which with respect, you apologised for and reading it in the context of the thread, it is clear that it was tongue-in-cheek rather than intentionally offensive). However, this post by you in response to a mod concerned me even more:


I read that as being another unnecessary dig at the mods of the forum, in keeping with your general attitude towards the forum.

Regarding the "Log Cabin" thread, you persisted in pushing an query which nobody knew the answer to, and complained that you were "getting nowhere" when you didn't get a sufficient answer. You persisted in asking if anyone knew of any which would get certification, "based on any research say an Architect might have conducted", and your posts included further unnecessary digs regarding certification:


People had already stated on the thread that they didn't know of any such structure which would get certification based on the new Part L of the TGDs. Your continuous request for this was hijacking the thread which was a specific query by another poster.

Now, in fairness, you do not have a lot of warnings, infractions or bans. However, that does not include on-thread warnings and the amount of time which the mods have had to spend due to your posts, whether it be cleaning up threads, splitting threads which have been hijacked/derailed due to your continuous bringing up of certification and fees, or trying to explain to you what is and isn't acceptable.

As a result of the amount of work you cause the moderators, threads being hijacked or derailed, questioning mod actions on-thread and this agenda regarding certification and professional fees which you keep pushing, the moderators are requesting that you be permabanned from the forum.

First, many thanks for taking the time, to review, and post on this matter, I appreciate that, and while I may disagree with some of your interpretation, I can see how you arrive at such conclusions.
Second I presume you meant me to reply, on thread, as I am aware the post is viewed pre-publication, if I am wrong, do not post, and I will revert to PM.

While I'm inclined to agree with them having reviewed the case, I'm also willing to give you a second chance. Any more mention of professional fees, certification and the new laws regarding such, or the profession of the mods, and you'll be permabanned from the forum. I would strongly advise you to stay out of such threads altogether.

Not having the ability at any point in the future to ''mention'' Fees, Certification, New Laws, in the context of any C&P thread, is in my view a Sword of Damocles, or has the potential for me to be ambushed.
Only today Minister Hogan announced the New Building Regulations, which I am sure will be a topic of interest, and much debate.

I will have a view, and while I can accept an instruction not to be critical of the Professions, found by Min. Hogan to have ''contributed'' to the mess, as i have in the past, I should reserve the right to comment, as you have stated, I am entitled.
I can however agree, to limit my contributions to ''on topic'' thoughts, without cynicism.

I accept and will refrain from commenting on the Mod's Personal Professions.

Let me know if this is agreeable or if you have any other comments on the matter.

Again, many thanks

Penn

martinn123,

I'm sorry, but you misunderstand me. There is no rule against posting about or criticising certification/professional fees. However, due to the extent to which you have done so and the amount of trouble it has caused, this rule is being enforced upon you in order to prevent future trouble. You cannot post on these topics or the mods can ban you.

Please take this warning in the spirit it is intended; namely to prevent you getting in trouble and allowing you to continue posting on the C&P forum and subforums in other threads not related to those topics. These are the issues which are likely to cause trouble, therefore this action is being taken to prevent that trouble from arising.

You may ask for an Admin to review this decision if you wish.

Regards,
Penn

martinn123

Penn wrote: »

martinn123,

I'm sorry, but you misunderstand me. There is no rule against posting about or criticising certification/professional fees. However, due to the extent to which you have done so and the amount of trouble it has caused, this rule is being enforced upon you in order to prevent future trouble. You cannot post on these topics or the mods can ban you.

sorry but I have a problem with that. The ''Trouble'' appears to have been sparked by my posting ''and i am getting nowhere'' in the Log Cabin thread, fair enough, this was intemperate, on my part. I can apologise for that.

Can I refer you to the following thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72833667

started by me on 18/6/11, It was ''thanked'' by a Mod on commencement, and drew 83 replies, and maybe got up a few noses, it discussed Fees, Certification, Regulation, the areas I am now accused of having a problem with,???

I think the argument came to a head of sorts in this thread, I started,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056683492&page=1

Which drew 86 replies, but no Ban or threat of such, i.e debate allowed.

Not a bad level of engagement, is that what''Boards is for'' maybe not.

I have made my points, publicly, on thread, and open to argument, from any contributor, unfortunately it seems to be against the attitude of the particular Mod's on this thread, that's fine by me for discussion, but not to ''Moderate'' a particular viewpoint.i.e oppose my view and you get a '' Ban''.
I have asked Mod's to post on BOLD when Moderating, and ''normal'' when posting comments, so I can follow and know where I stand.

As far as I am aware, the only time Mods were troubled to ''Tidy Up'' a thread was the ''Log Cabin'' thread, where the tidying up, removed the Tumbleweed Cartoon, and previous critical post and my replies, and warranted a comment by PM from Poor Uncle Tom that the Topic was ''worthy of discussion''.

Any other comments by me on Fees, etc, are viewed by the Mods, in the shadow of these threads, and button-holed as critical of their position.

Anyway, thanks for your interest in this matter, if genuine comment on Fees, Certification, and Regulation, such as I have illustrated in the above threads, is not permitted on Boards, despite the existence of these threads, and I am to be personally Censored, rather than Moderated, I will reguire no ''Ban'' but will close my account

Please take this warning in the spirit it is intended; namely to prevent you getting in trouble and allowing you to continue posting on the C&P forum and subforums in other threads not related to those topics. These are the issues which are likely to cause trouble, therefore this action is being taken to prevent that trouble from arising.

You may ask for an Admin to review this decision if you wish.

Regards,
Penn

Yes Please

martinn123

While awaiting further comment on this matter, could someone clarify whether I am welcome, or not, to post in the Forum referred to.

There are a couple of interesting Threads, on Building Regulations, and indeed Fees, ( not started by me BTY), but on which I have an opinion, however I am unsure of my ground.

Respectfully and patiently,

martinn123

Zaph

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this.

I've had a look at the discussion Penn had with the C&P mods and some of your previous posts. It's quite apparent that the amount of time and effort the mods have devoted to issues involving you is disproportionate when compared to the rest of the posters in the forum. The level of disruption is significant, and while you may not disagree with this assessment, a 150 post thread in the C&P mod forum going back 2 years discussing you alone tells its own story.

Penn has clearly spent a lot of time reviewing your case, and at the end of it I believe that he's come up with a very fair and equitable solution. I know that you may feel you are being censored, but apart from the topics outlined by Penn you still have free run of the forum. I've seen many people being banned from forums outright for a lot less. Now if you don't feel you can use the forum under these conditions and would prefer to close your account, then that's entirely your prerogative. However to me it would seem like you'd be cutting your nose off to spite your face, so I would urge you to step back and think about it for a while first.

tl;dr - CMod decision upheld.

martinn123

Thank you for your reply,

To clarify, not to dispute the ruling, can I ask, is the ''Censorship'' on my posting to be considered.

A. Temporary, i.e like a one month Ban or more than that

B. Intermediate, say 3-6 Months, or maybe more.

or
Permanent, i.e till the end of time

Regards

Zaph

My reading of Penn's post is that it's permanent.

Penn

Hi martinn123,

Yes, for all intents and purposes, it's permanent. These are the particular topics which are causing you to get in trouble, and causing excess work for the mods, so these are the topics which we're asking you to no longer post about. If after maybe three months you want to revisit this, send me a PM and we'll see if something can be worked out. But for now anyway, it should be taken as being a permanent order.

Shield

As Zaph has deemed this matter to be resolved, and changed the Prefix to that effect, this thread is now closed.