Austerity isn't really working is it?

morlock_

Anynama141 wrote: »

Unfortunately this idea won't be helped by the hissy fit the broad left (plus Fianna Failure) have thrown over property tax - another sensible tax that works everywhere else.

Is the Household charge a land tax? I wouldn't think so..

It seems to be a residential tax which again, pushes taxes on labour instead of the land which is largely owned by the wealthy.
A land tax would be a much better system for the country.

darkhorse

Noreen1 wrote: »

Why is that relevant?

A discussion on whether austerity is working, or not, has nothing to do with whether we have a choice in the matter.

That's the funniest part about it, Noreen. We were never consulted one way or the other. Maybe I just was'nt home the day they sent someone from L.H. to ask if I would like to partake in the austerity program. The damndest thing is, there is a new party on the scene now, and they would have asked me. If only they were in power.

darkhorse

Right, Any,

I cannot wait any(no pun intended)longer for your reply, as I only have three hours sleep.
Night, All.
dh

Noreen1

darkhorse wrote: »

That's the funniest part about it, Noreen. We were never consulted one way or the other. Maybe I just was'nt home the day they sent someone from L.H. to ask if I would like to partake in the austerity program. The damndest thing is, there is a new party on the scene now, and they would have asked me. If only they were in power.

I doubt it tbh.

The fact that IBRC was wound up before a challenge to the legality of the Bailout, which was supported by TDs, suggests that the new party doesn't want the status quo interrupted. For all the pre-election waffle they spouted.

Phoebas

morlock_ wrote: »

Is the Household charge a land tax? I wouldn't think so..

It seems to be a residential tax which again, pushes taxes on labour instead of the land which is largely owned by the wealthy.
A land tax would be a much better system for the country.

A residential property tax pushes tax on labour??? How does it do that?

Anynama141

Noreen1 wrote: »

Why is that relevant?

A discussion on whether austerity is working, or not, has nothing to do with whether we have a choice in the matter.

Because it's like asking whether the earth orbiting the sun is 'working' - it's a completely meaningless question if it's the only way it can be.

Anynama141

darkhorse wrote: »

That's the funniest part about it, Noreen. We were never consulted one way or the other. Maybe I just was'nt home the day they sent someone from L.H. to ask if I would like to partake in the austerity program. The damndest thing is, there is a new party on the scene now, and they would have asked me. If only they were in power.

Are you consulted as to whether you want to fall when you jump off a bridge? No, because you have no choice.

What was the choice with regard to austerity? You have admitted yourself that you can think of no alternative. The government cannot spend money it does not have, same as you or me.

(apologies for the late reply, I hit the sack)

Tazz T

Anynama141 wrote: »

Because it's like asking whether the earth orbiting the sun is 'working' - it's a completely meaningless question if it's the only way it can be.

Who says its the only way it can be? The people who used to tell us the earth was flat.

Austerity is working... for the banks and and the bondholders who we bailed out. They're getting back into profitability while the rest of us get poorer and poorer and further into debt.

Anynama141

Tazz T wrote: »

Who says its the only way it can be? The people who used to tell us the earth was flat.

Austerity is working... for the banks and and the bondholders who we bailed out. They're getting back into profitability while the rest of us get poorer and poorer and further into debt.

Great! You believe there is an alternative!

So - imagine you are in government today. What do you do? What is your alternative plan?

bgrizzley

Phoebas wrote: »

A residential property tax pushes tax on labour??? How does it do that?

i work, i pay tax from my salary then i pay rpt from my salary.
Three card monty aside, its a tax on labour to anybody who works.

(inb4 but the rich will get away with it:eek:)

Three Seasons

What do people think the goal of austerity is?

To determine if "it's working" you first need to know the intended goal?

Not that it matters is there is no realistic alternative, it's purely academic.

Anynama141

bgrizzley wrote: »

i work, i pay tax from my salary then i pay rpt from my salary.
Three card monty aside, its a tax on labour to anybody who works.

(inb4 but the rich will get away with it:eek:)

But most other civilised countries have property tax, including that most left-wing of countries, Sweden. It's a progressive tax that hits the wealthier harder, and of course it doesn't (or at least shouldn't) add to the overall tax burden.

KyussBishop

The EU member states are perfectly capable of implementing policies that provide stimulus spending and bring recovery, austerity is not the only choice available; the functioning of our economy is no longer solely determined by our local government, it is determined largely by Europe now, and it is the choices available to Europe as a whole, which determine the range of possible policy options.

There is an ample supply of untapped savings all throughout Europe, which the private market could invest if Eurobonds were put in place, and member states also have the option of implementing policies, which allow using the ECB directly for funding.

The political situation will prevent any of these recovery policies from happening (because it looks like Germany will never agree to that at this stage), so the probable course of things, is more years of austerity, until circumstances (an anti-austerity party getting in power somewhere in Europe, or particularly harsh terms on a new bailout for some EU country) push a country out of the single currency, and pull along the rest of the EU with.

None of which means austerity is 'working' or that it is the only game in town, simply that politics locks austerity in place.

Three Seasons

KyussBishop wrote: »

The EU member states are perfectly capable of implementing policies that provide stimulus spending and bring recovery, austerity is not the only choice available; the functioning of our economy is no longer solely determined by our local government, it is determined largely by Europe now, and it is the choices available to Europe as a whole, which determine the range of possible policy options.

There is an ample supply of untapped savings all throughout Europe, which the private market could invest if Eurobonds were put in place, and member states also have the option of implementing policies, which allow using the ECB directly for funding.

The political situation will prevent any of these recovery policies from happening (because it looks like Germany will never agree to that at this stage), so the probable course of things, is more years of austerity, until circumstances (an anti-austerity party getting in power somewhere in Europe, or particularly harsh terms on a new bailout for some EU country) push a country out of the single currency, and pull along the rest of the EU with.

None of which means austerity is 'working' or that it is the only game in town, simply that politics locks austerity in place.

Do you believe we should continue borrowing indefinitely to fund our massive fiscal deficit each year?

KyussBishop

Three Seasons wrote: »

Do you believe we should continue borrowing indefinitely to fund our massive fiscal deficit each year?

No, that is the entire point of the Eurobonds; individual countries are not burdened with excessive high-interest debt.

bgrizzley

Anynama141 wrote: »

But most other civilised countries have property tax, including that most left-wing of countries, Sweden. It's a progressive tax that hits the wealthier harder, and of course it doesn't (or at least shouldn't) add to the overall tax burden.

just because you have lpt doesnt make you civilised. Sweden had a eugenics program up to recently (around the time we got rid of our last property tax). should we emulate that too?

stop copying other countries homework and do your own...

edit

it doesn't (or at least shouldn't) add to the overall tax burden.

can you please expand on this? id like to know how me paying this tax doesnt add to my tax burden

Three Seasons

KyussBishop wrote: »

No, that is the entire point of the Eurobonds; individual countries are not burdened with excessive high-interest debt.

So how is the fiscal gap closed?

Bullseye1

Three Seasons wrote: »

So how is the fiscal gap closed?

By getting people back to work. There is nothing we can really do about international markets at present they are in decline. Why not switch our attention to the domestic market or at least some of our attention.

Phoebas

bgrizzley wrote: »

i work, i pay tax from my salary then i pay rpt from my salary.
Three card monty aside, its a tax on labour to anybody who works.

(inb4 but the rich will get away with it:eek:)

Jeez. One of the common complaints that you hear about the LPT is that it isn't linked to earnings. And now apparently it is

Anyhow, I know you've been around these arguments enough times to understand how different types of taxation impact on the labour market, so I won't rehash them again here. I'll just assume you're messing.

jank

KyussBishop wrote: »

No, that is the entire point of the Eurobonds; individual countries are not burdened with excessive high-interest debt.

So you want Eurobonds backed by Germany without any political influence on how to spend said borrowings. If that was the case you will have all countries falling over themselves borrowing and spending as much as they can cause they are guaranteed by German savers. You honestly think the Germans will let any country do that? If Eurobonds are a reality, then the Germans will start dictating macro economics for all the smaller countries. There is no silver bullet here!

Anynama141

bgrizzley wrote: »

just because you have lpt doesnt make you civilised. Sweden had a eugenics program up to recently (around the time we got rid of our last property tax). should we emulate that too?

stop copying other countries homework and do your own...

Let me put in a different way: why should we alone not have a property tax, when it's a fundamental plank of taxation policy in nearly every other civilised country?

bgrizzley wrote: »

can you please expand on this? id like to know how me paying this tax doesnt add to my tax burden

Your tax burden is made up of various things - TAX = (A and B and C and D etc.)

The property tax merely separates out one of those elements and gives it a new name, and you are charged based on how expensive your house is. No new tax is being raised. You are now being charged TAX = (B and C and D etc.) plus 'A', separately under a new name.

The only way you will pay more tax is if you have a very low income and a very expensive house. In which case, I wish I had a big house like you. :pac:

Anynama141

Bullseye1 wrote: »

By getting people back to work. There is nothing we can really do about international markets at present they are in decline. Why not switch our attention to the domestic market or at least some of our attention.

So it's up to the government to somehow create 200,000 jobs? You know that the government doesn't actually create any jobs, don't you? Unless you want them all hired by the civil service or the county councils to do busy work, and guess what happens when 200,000 new salaries are added to the budget?

Phoebas

jank wrote: »

So you want Eurobonds backed by Germany without any political influence on how to spend said borrowings. If that was the case you will have all countries falling over themselves borrowing and spending as much as they can cause they are guaranteed by German savers. You honestly think the Germans will let any country do that? If Eurobonds are a reality, then the Germans will start dictating macro economics for all the smaller countries. There is no silver bullet here!

You're at risk of going down a rabbit hole with this argument. Kyuss imagines a better world were Germany does agree with Eurobonds (or where German agreement isn't necessary).
It not a world that exists right now or is likely to exist in the near future.

Anynama141

KyussBishop wrote: »

No, that is the entire point of the Eurobonds; individual countries are not burdened with excessive high-interest debt.

So two points come out of this:

1. You have already acknowledged that Austerity is not something that is in the control of the Irish government - we agree on that.

2. Why do you think Eurobonds are a good solution? Is it fair that German, Finnish, Dutch etc. taxpayers should have to subsidise poor government in the Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Greece etc.? Do you think that giving more cheap credit to these countries will encourage them to reform their reckless behaviour?

Three Seasons

Bullseye1 wrote: »

By getting people back to work. There is nothing we can really do about international markets at present they are in decline. Why not switch our attention to the domestic market or at least some of our attention.

Getting people back to work won't close the deficit. We have 85 % employment roughly, what's an extra 10 % going to do? The gap is too big. Of course it will help, but a lot more needs to be done. We had an 18 billion deficit during the boom years with full employment.

KyussBishop

Three Seasons wrote: »

So how is the fiscal gap closed?

You close the output gap (the fall in GDP, compared to what it could be if everyone were employed) first, which increases tax intake, and then you deal with the fiscal gap (which the rise in tax intake has already helped ameliorate), when inflation starts reaching targets.

Ireland alone isn't in a position to do this, but with the right policies, Europe overall is.

Anynama141

KyussBishop wrote: »

You close the output gap (the fall in GDP, compared to what it could be if everyone were employed) first, which increases tax intake, and then you deal with the fiscal gap (which the rise in tax intake has already helped ameliorate), when inflation starts reaching targets.

Ireland alone isn't in a position to do this, but with the right policies, Europe overall is.

...and how do you close the output gap?

Oh wait, you are going to start talking about printing loads of money, and promising that it won't cause inflation, aren't you?

I believe that's the socialist position on this, IIRC.

KyussBishop

jank wrote: »

So you want Eurobonds backed by Germany without any political influence on how to spend said borrowings. If that was the case you will have all countries falling over themselves borrowing and spending as much as they can cause they are guaranteed by German savers. You honestly think the Germans will let any country do that? If Eurobonds are a reality, then the Germans will start dictating macro economics for all the smaller countries. There is no silver bullet here!

That's a straw-man, where you assume any country can just use them to borrow at will; if you're going to jump to conclusions and assume ridiculous stuff like that, when that is not what was said, you're arguing in bad faith.

KyussBishop

Anynama141 wrote: »

So it's up to the government to somehow create 200,000 jobs? You know that the government doesn't actually create any jobs, don't you? Unless you want them all hired by the civil service or the county councils to do busy work, and guess what happens when 200,000 new salaries are added to the budget?

You stated government doesn't create jobs, and in the next sentence point out the civil service, where, yes, government created the jobs.

Anynama141

KyussBishop wrote: »

You stated government doesn't create jobs, and in the next sentence point out the civil service, where, yes, government created the jobs.

So you are seriously talking about adding 200,000 state employees to do made-up jobs that add no value, and taxing the nads off the rest of us to pay them?

Holy jumping Christ.