Trespassing? Do you do it?

meathstevie

Whispered wrote: »

I doubt the OP means he goes into fields and allows his dog chase sheep. I'm not sure, but I think that legally a farmer should not shoot a dog unless it's actively worrying stock. So if you're walking in a field with your dog, it is illegal for the farmer to fire a shot. Can anyone confirm this for me?

On the other hand, he'd be well within his right to tell you to get the F out!

A livestock owner is entitled to protect his stock from predators; that includes wild ones as well as domesticated ones. That is why there are for example derogations on open seasons for certain birds and why there is no closed season for shooting foxes.

In the case of domesticated predators like dogs there are certain more stringent criteria; they must be worrying or about to worry livestock and no other effective means to avert potential loss of livestock are available.

This is where the opinions will start to diverge; to a farmer the moment his ews and lambs huddle together in a protective flock making ready to run for it they are being worried even when the dog in the field is not actively attacking them. In the eyes of the dog owner the dog quite likely was doing nothing.

It just does not make sense for a dog owner to let their pet anywhere near livestock, especially not during lambing and calving time. You're setting yourself up to be hit with a massive bill for losses and you run the risk of having your dog lawfully shot.

Whispered

meathstevie wrote: »

A livestock owner is entitled to protect his stock from predators; that includes wild ones as well as domesticated ones. That is why there are for example derogations on open seasons for certain birds and why there is no closed season for shooting foxes.

In the case of domesticated predators like dogs there are certain more stringent criteria; they must be worrying or about to worry livestock and no other effective means to avert potential loss of livestock are available.

This is where the opinions will start to diverge; to a farmer the moment his ews and lambs huddle together in a protective flock making ready to run for it they are being worried even when the dog in the field is not actively attacking them. In the eyes of the dog owner the dog quite likely was doing nothing.
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Thank you, this makes sense.

What about the legalities of firing a shot near a person? Say walking with a dog on a lead, or within a few foot offlead, in an area likely to cause upset to stock?

littlebug

There was a serious amount of media coverage locally (Mayo) back in January after quite a few farmers in different parts of the county lost a lot of livestock to dogs. I'd say at this time of year farmers would not appreciate someone walking their dogs on their land and to do so you would be taking a big risk.

Someone on here a couple of years ago told of letting their dogs off in a big field they thought was empty and it turned out there were sheep at the far end of the field. It didn't end well.

I would also be very reluctant to let my dog off lead in an area where there are badger setts. depends on the dogs prey drive I suppose but I think the dog would come out worse in any encounter. There's plenty of wildlife to be seen in any of the coillte woods without trespassing on someones property.

Just to note, OP hasn't specified whether they're talking about on or off lead, in a big field or trails of some sort.

euser1984

meathstevie wrote: »

In the case of domesticated predators like dogs there are certain more stringent criteria; they must be worrying or about to worry livestock and no other effective means to avert potential loss of livestock are available.

I would interpret the above as 'No, you cannot shoot a dog except as a last resort'—meaning; you must exhaust all methods of diplomacy. If the dog gets shot, then the owner probably doesn't care a whole lot about the dog.

I mean shooting a domesticated dog :eek:

Whispered

euser1984 wrote: »

I would interpret the above as 'No, you cannot shoot a dog except as a last resort'—meaning; you must exhaust all methods of diplomacy. If the dog gets shot, then the owner probably doesn't care a whole lot about the dog.

I mean shooting a domesticated dog :eek:

I suppose it depends on the definition of worrying stock and the definition of last resort. Like meathstevie pointed out, worrying can be as little as setting the herd on edge. So is it a last resort to prevent the dog physically killing a sheep itself, or a last resort before a dog causes a sheep to loose a lamb, last resort before a sheep/cow gets itself tangled or injured on a fence. It's very grey.

I wouldn't risk it.

Where I live there is a masspath. This means it is a right of way through private land. The gates are sprung to close when you enter. When there is nothing in the field, we walk the dogs and allow them offlead, as do many of the locals. We have met the farmer, chatted to him as he moves stock through adjoining fields etc and we have permission to be there. We'd have our 2 dogs off lead and a walking friend with is 2 dogs offlead, 4 med to large dogs. On a few occasions, the farmer would arrive, say hello, then let his sheep into the field while we are still there. Now I wouldn't expect him to NOT do that, it's his field of course! But I would have thought if sheep are so easily worried he'd let a shout to tell us to put them back on the lead. Same in the Curragh, the sheep don't bat an eyelid at dogs. Are they really so easily upset?

euser1984

It's easy to compensate for a lost lamb etc. There is no way until afterwards he will know whether there has been a loss.

Witcher

euser1984 wrote: »

It's easy to compensate for a lost lamb etc. There is no way until afterwards he will know whether there has been a loss.

The answer here is to stay off land you don't own and your dog will be safe.

littlebug

Whispered wrote: »

Are they really so easily upset?

My dog won't bat an eyelid as we walk past fields of sheep (us on the road) and most of time they ignore us too, but occasionally they'll just take a look at us and take off at a gallop for no apparent reason. When they do this my dog is suddenly up on her hind legs and straining to get running after them. In effect we have just "worried" the sheep without even being in the field. God forbid if my dog actually got in there with them. So sometimes I think it's the sheeps movement that triggers something in the dog...but still the dog that will do all the damage if they get near them and chase.

littlebug

euser1984 wrote: »

It's easy to compensate for a lost lamb etc. There is no way until afterwards he will know whether there has been a loss.

seriously? one lamb?

Eight of the flock are dead and many others were injured and traumatized in the attack.

The loss to the farmer is estimated to be in excess of 3,000 euro.

from here

Rommie

To be honest OP, I wouldn't go anywhere near private land. There are enough places to walk without having to go into fields. I don't understand why you so adamantly want to take your dog into the fields anyway? And to a farmer, yes even one lamb can be a huge loss (though it's highly unlikely that just one lamb would be lost). This is their livelihood we're talking about here, they have every right to protect it and you have absolutely no right to go walking across their land.

euser1984

Rommie wrote: »

To be honest OP, I wouldn't go anywhere near private land. There are enough places to walk without having to go into fields. I don't understand why you so adamantly want to take your dog into the fields anyway? And to a farmer, yes even one lamb can be a huge loss (though it's highly unlikely that just one lamb would be lost). This is their livelihood we're talking about here, they have every right to protect it and you have absolutely no right to go walking across their land.

Sorry, I'm not actually going to. I was just talking about the legality of shooting a dog.

DBB

euser1984 wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not actually going to. I was just talking about the legality of shooting a dog.

It's legal for a farmer to shoot a dog that's worrying his livestock. It's a perfectly reasonable law. If I may say, you appear to be putting more value on the life of a livestock-chasing dog, than on the livestock themselves. A farmer can only be compensated for lost stock if the dog's owner is found, an unlikely occurrence. Why should he incur losses to his livelihood due to another person breaking the law?
Your posts are confusing. Your OP suggested you DO want to go onto private land, and by the way, not having a "no trespass" sign up does not give you the right to enter someone else's land. You've said you want to go onto private land to look at wildlife, you specifically mentioned foxes and badgers. I'd like to know how you can successfully watch either species (a) when you've a dog with you, and (b) during daylight hours and without a lamp or specialised night vision gear, given that both species are crepuscular and nocturnal? You're going to attract a whole pile of attention entering private land with a dog and a lamp at night if you've no permission to be there.
So OP, what exactly is the point of your thread? Do you want to trespass? Or do you want to watch wildlife by night? Or is this an outrage thread against farmers shooting dogs that are killing his/her stock, for which he'll not be compensated in most cases?

Assassins Creed

euser1984 wrote: »

It's easy to compensate for a lost lamb etc. There is no way until afterwards he will know whether there has been a loss.

Lets picture the scenario of walking a dog off lead on the land. Dog sees the flock and chases after them. Recall doesn't work. Ewes get injured in the chase or worse dies with lamb, miscarriages, still births, ewes caught in barbed wire. Proving that death at birth some weeks later was due to trauma of chase. Proving that Farmer as littlebug said is at a loss of 3,000 euro. How easy is it to get compensation. Call guards, if they arrive on time owner is caught. Possible court case, owner cant afford to pay or proving negligence etc.

Farmer has invested a lot of time and money in his living. A domesticated dog on his land worrying sheep is in his mind and rightfully so is a predator and not a domesticated dog.

The cost to farmers each year from the actions of domesticated dogs, someones pet, runs into the thousands.

I'd imagine in a farmers mind to replace someones dog is a lot less than his potential loss. And who can blame him.

snoman

'It's sad really that not every area has a local park/area for walking. Where, I live and where my family lives, there's no walking anywhere, thats NOT "trespassing". Unless you count the roads'

I guess that in reality there are always places in the country where there are no public paths and where there is a community understanding of areas where it is ok to let your dog off lead. This should in no way exonerate the dog walker from controlling his/her dog in a throughly responsible manner. And I have always understood that if a dog is in a field causing farm animals any discomfort that it is entirely within the landowners right to take action, and if this means that the dog is off lead it is his/her right to shoot it.

Sorry for Bold at top. Forgot how to paste quotes!!!

meathstevie

Whispered wrote: »

Thank you, this makes sense.

What about the legalities of firing a shot near a person? Say walking with a dog on a lead, or within a few foot offlead, in an area likely to cause upset to stock?

That's starting to drift into reckless discharge territory and that's a completely different kettle of fish legislation and consequence wise.

meathstevie

littlebug wrote: »

My dog won't bat an eyelid as we walk past fields of sheep (us on the road) and most of time they ignore us too, but occasionally they'll just take a look at us and take off at a gallop for no apparent reason. When they do this my dog is suddenly up on her hind legs and straining to get running after them. In effect we have just "worried" the sheep without even being in the field. God forbid if my dog actually got in there with them. So sometimes I think it's the sheeps movement that triggers something in the dog...but still the dog that will do all the damage if they get near them and chase.

If you're on the road and your dog is under control than you're doing absolutely nothing wrong.

It's natural defensive behaviour for sheep to huddle up and run and that exactly is the sign for a hunting canine to get the chase going.

meathstevie

Whispered wrote: »

I suppose it depends on the definition of worrying stock and the definition of last resort. Like meathstevie pointed out, worrying can be as little as setting the herd on edge. So is it a last resort to prevent the dog physically killing a sheep itself, or a last resort before a dog causes a sheep to loose a lamb, last resort before a sheep/cow gets itself tangled or injured on a fence. It's very grey.

I wouldn't risk it.

Where I live there is a masspath. This means it is a right of way through private land. The gates are sprung to close when you enter. When there is nothing in the field, we walk the dogs and allow them offlead, as do many of the locals. We have met the farmer, chatted to him as he moves stock through adjoining fields etc and we have permission to be there. We'd have our 2 dogs off lead and a walking friend with is 2 dogs offlead, 4 med to large dogs. On a few occasions, the farmer would arrive, say hello, then let his sheep into the field while we are still there. Now I wouldn't expect him to NOT do that, it's his field of course! But I would have thought if sheep are so easily worried he'd let a shout to tell us to put them back on the lead. Same in the Curragh, the sheep don't bat an eyelid at dogs. Are they really so easily upset?

Generally speaking sheep would be just about the easiest upset and stressed farm animals you'll encounter in Ireland. The only one I can think about that would be of a more nervous disposition would be a thorough bred horse but they're not that often in easily accessible fields.

Don't forget we're talking about animals after all. Some flocks would be used to have dogs around them. Also a lot of people especially hunters (the variety on foot with a gun) and a good few folk in rural areas would have their dogs livestock trained.

Aru

Whispered wrote: »

Are they really so easily upset?

Sheep heavy in lamb are very very easily upset and stress can have severe consequences. Even handling in order to treat injuries etc can bring on early lambing and lambs born more that 2 or 3 days before their due date rarely survive. They also can end up carrying dead lambs after a stress and these are not easily delivered/can rot inside her meaning the ewe could die as well.

Sheep who are not used to that dog find meeting that sort of predator(because remember dogs are predators and sheep are a high drive prey animal)very stressful. Your dog does not have to bite or even chase a pregnant ewe to cause them stress. Unfamiliar dogs getting close enough to them can be enough to start the stress reaction.Obviously being chased is 100 times worse than a dog in the field...but thinking that your dog is fine in a sheep field this time of year is not on.

One of clients flocks had one of their fields of pregnant ewes chased this year.

Of the flock 3 died on the day from the stress. 2 also drown in the stream the dogs cornered them in before the farmer found them.They were likely weak from the stress and unable to climb out,plus their wool once soaked through is a lead weight. None of them had actually been bitten,the dogs were just chasing for fun not killing.....Could have looked like harmless fun if you are not familiar with sheep.

Since then the farmer has had hugh amounts of weak lambs born.Many of these need intensive care to get them going and still hes losing some. Several ewes turned out to be carrying dead lambs...we lost 3 of these as they got infections from the lambs rotting inside...in spite of prompt vet treatment and removing the lambs once it was apparent they were dead. Some of the ewes scanned in lamb resorbed so they will not have any lambs this year.Another loss. He will not have enough replacement hoggets(female ewe lambs) this year and will have to buy in more to keep the flock to its normal level. Those dogs fun will have have cost that farmer thousands.

Incidentally I put down all 4 dogs involved, when they came back for round two the farmer chose not to shoot them and instead scared them with some warning shots and followed them home. It was a horribly day...those poor dogs were the ones who suffered for their owns lack of control.

Sheep who are not in lamb are obviously hardier! But its still unfair to trespass on someones land with your pet and put their livestock under stress.

Whispered

Aru wrote: »

the farmer chose not to shoot them and instead scared them with some warning shots and followed them home. It was a horribly day...those poor dogs were the ones who suffered for their owns lack of control.

Did the farmer get compensated by the owners?

Would you reckon the ones on the Curragh for example are just so used to them that it doesn't effect them?

mathepac

Live-stock raised on commonage (like the Curragh) for even part of the year will be better 'socialised' than those raised on farms. The sheep on the Curragh will have adapted well to sharing their environment with horses, motor-vehicles, crowds, noise including gun-fire, dogs and of course a variety of individual humans. Thus they are far less likely to become startled or display nervousness than their rural cousins. But even on common land there are rules about off-lead or stray canines and remember when your adorable little Shep meets the inoffensive Diddums or Rover of a night, their domestication vanishes quickly when presented with what looks to them like prey animals.

Aru

Whispered wrote: »

Did the farmer get compensated by the owners?

Would you reckon the ones on the Curragh for example are just so used to them that it doesn't effect them?

I doubt that the farmer involved got even close to the compensation that he was entitled to.

The curragh is different.However though it is commonage that isn't a free for all to let your dog run loose without any control on them or after the livestock at all, a dog on the curragh is still ment to be under its owners control as its a public space...and an out of control dog worrying sheep on the curragh could still be shot by a farmer...

However the sheep on the curragh are generally fairly dog smart and dog proof as they are sensitized to a variety of dogs from a young age.Very little phases the sheep on the curragh from what I have seen of them!

But I wouldnt be surprised to hear that there are dog and sheep issues on the curragh this time of year. If a dog chases a pregnant sheep even one used to dogs its quite likely they will end up with serious issues.

Whispered

Aru wrote: »

though it is commonage that isn't a free for all to let your dog run loose without any control on them or after the livestock at all, a dog on the curragh is still ment to be under its owners control as its a public space...and an out of control dog worrying sheep on the curragh could still be shot by a farmer...

It does go without saying that a dog should be under control, regardless of where they are - I would be very surprised if a farmer could legally fire a gun in a public area criss crossed by roads and used by the public with and without dogs?

(Just to point out that a lot of the last two posts have been "you should" etc, it might not be aimed at me, but I have said I wouldn't trespass and I'm asking out of interest rather than trying to justify any trespassing I'm planning to do! )

Aru

Whispered wrote: »

It does go without saying that a dog should be under control, regardless of where they are - I would be very surprised if a farmer could legally fire a gun in a public area criss crossed by roads and used by the public with and without dogs?

(Just to point out that a lot of the last two posts have been "you should" etc, it might not be aimed at me, but I have said I wouldn't trespass and I'm asking out of interest rather than trying to justify any trespassing I'm planning to do! )

Its not aimed at anyone just my style of writing I think.

Now that I think about it you are right about shooting on the curragh. A farmer on the curragh wouldn't be able to get a license to shoot there.Brain not activating properly moment sorry about that

convert

Walking into a field, regardless of whether or not there's a 'no trespassing' sign on it or not, means that you are trespassing on private property. It would be akin to someone walking in to your garden with their dog. Unless you are invited in by the landowner, you should not cross the boundary. I would never dream of walking in on someone else's property without permission.

With regard to worrying livestock: there doesn't necessarily have to be stock in the field. Even walking in a field next door, with your dog on a lead, can cause them to spook and run, causing ewes, heifers/cows and mares to abort or cause huge complications and therefore impact on the farmer's livelihood.

If you want to find somewhere to walk your dog, then either look for a local public park or approach the local landowners and ask if they would allow you to walk your dog(s) on their land. Otherwise just stick to walking on the road. A lot of people do it and are quite content to do so.

Rozelia21

Aru wrote: »

Incidentally I put down all 4 dogs involved, when they came back for round two the farmer chose not to shoot them and instead scared them with some warning shots and followed them home. It was a horribly day...those poor dogs were the ones who suffered for their owns lack of control.

If he went to the trouble of following them home, couldn't he have spoken to the owners and warned them to keep their dogs under control or they would be shot? Maybe they didn't realise how much trouble they were causing. Or did they actually bite the sheep the second time? You said there were no bites the first time. It's so sad they had to die because of their owners lack of responsibility...

Aru

Rozelia21 wrote: »

If he went to the trouble of following them home, couldn't he have spoken to the owners and warned them to keep their dogs under control or they would be shot? Maybe they didn't realise how much trouble they were causing. Or did they actually bite the sheep the second time? You said there were no bites the first time. It's so sad they had to die because of their owners lack of responsibility...

He did talk to the owners. Mainly to tell them their loose dogs had just killed several of his animals.
However....
The owner was very elderly and the dogs lived loose outside. It was a situation where one unspayed dog had led to them having a pack of unsocialised, fearful of strangers but very active pups that were kept on. They had no control over their pack of dogs and didn't have the resources to fence in their entire garden well enough to contain active sheepdogs. Bar chaining them permanently or locking them in sheds they could not have kept them contained all the time and with noone to walk them that would have been another form of cruelty.
No one they knew would take on known sheep killers.
In a strange was they did the most responsible thing they could in the situation by putting those dogs to sleep.

The point I was making earlier is that dogs that are sheep killers do not need to bite...all they have to do is chase,the sheep are still dead either way

Once they have discovered the fun of chasing its very difficult to stop it happening again unless you are a very dedicated dog owner who is never going to let them off lead and keep them securely contained at all times.
Most people get complacent over time and relax their guard or think they are older/neutered/better behaved now they wont go from the garden if i leave them alone for 5 minutes or dont believe that their own pet meant to do any harm and they wont do it again.....and the dog gets loose and more sheep die.

ISDW

Aru wrote: »

Once they have discovered the fun of chasing its very difficult to stop it happening again unless you are a very dedicated dog owner who is never going to let them off lead and keep them securely contained at all times.
Most people get complacent over time and relax their guard or think they are older/neutered/better behaved now they wont go from the garden if i leave them alone for 5 minutes or dont believe that their own pet meant to do any harm and they wont do it again.....and the dog gets loose and more sheep die.

I find it really sad that you think only very dedicated dog owners would be this responsible. surely all dog owners should have their pets safely contained at all times? It is a recurring theme on here unfortunately, people who don't have a fenced in garden and think that its acceptable to allow their dogs freedom to wander.

Aru

ISDW wrote: »

I find it really sad that you think only very dedicated dog owners would be this responsible. surely all dog owners should have their pets safely contained at all times? It is a recurring theme on here unfortunately, people who don't have a fenced in garden and think that its acceptable to allow their dogs freedom to wander.

In my experience dedicated owners are the exception rather than the rule.

While most owners love their pets in their own way but do have differing extents to how far they will inconvenience themselves for the dogs sake.And thats fair enough in its own way but highly frustrating for the dogs sake.Its not always to do with money more of an ingrained attitude or an ignorance as to what dogs are worth/not worth/need in many cases.
Issues can range from not keeping them from going on roads and being hit by cars,to not neutering,to being unwilling to treat very treatable conditions to the opposite side of the spectrum where the dog is treated like a spoilt/additional children with no rules/obedience training leading to dogs with behavioral problems.
Its not just the rural area I am working in(though it is a particular issue in rural areas with dogs being allowed to wander ) But I've found this an issue in almost every practice I have been in. Truely dedicated and clued in owners make up.. maybe half(at a stretch?)of the owners who come to the vets...and these are the people who are bringing their pets to a vet...never mind the ones whose dogs will never pass our door.

Really depressing tbh but working as a Vet you cannot care more about the dog than the owner does....it just breaks your heart over and over again.

Every dog owner should have their dog contained and under control at all times. But its really not half as common as it should be and isnt enforced.

Rozelia21

ah I see in that case I guess it was their only option... but they should never have got a dog in the first place without having a secure garden, expecially not a sheepdog.

the_syco

euser1984 wrote: »

Just for the record though - I was talking about land w/out the "no trespassing sign".

Just for the record, you don't mind me getting into your house through an unlocked door/window/etc?

=-=

It's lambing season, so if they see an unknown dog heading towards their sheep, most will shoot first, ask questions later. Even if the dog doesn't go near the sheep, their presence can cause the sheep to miscarry. So if the farmer catches you, are you prepared to pay for every single sheep lost by miscarriage due to you allowing your dog to frighten the sheep?

=-=

There is a right of way through a field nearby me, to a graveyard. There's a hefty looking ram that protects the sheep, however, and I'd say it'll charge at anything that goes near the sheep.

euser1984 wrote: »

I mean shooting a domesticated dog :eek:

As opposed to what? Wolves? Black panters? Yes, "domesticated" dogs are usually the predators.