€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

ilovesleep

HondaSami wrote: »

Over from where? how do you know they are just as qualified?

I doubt very much we'll need to recruit much from abroad. Ireland opened it's boarders back in 2004 to eastern europeans. Many from eastern europe came for work. Many are highly qualified in their studies. We only opened up half of our country to them. Many weren't allowed to work in what they were qualified to do back home in their own country and they flooded the private sector in retail, hospitality, construction, manufacturing etc

I remember working in a job, years ago and working along side many Polish, who were qualified in teaching but couldn't teach here.

I wonder were many qualified in medicine, dentistry, etc? I'm some many came over with such papers and yet I never saw a Polish G.P or Dentist working here. Did you?

DylanII

Of course they aren't going to take it.

If doesnt matter how much you love your job if you are underpaid compared to everyone else in your sector then your not going to do it.

I would not be doing 18 years of Education for 116,000 when everyone else is getting 190,000z

Owen_S

Jumboman wrote: »

It just shows that they didnt get into medicine to help people but to line their own pockets.

How do you know they can't help people in alternative positions?

pragmatic1

MMAGirl wrote: »

100k is nothing. They can easily earn this abroad. Probably have a better standard of living too. And not have to listen to begrudging fcukers all day either.
Seems thats how it goes in Ireland now. Someone is always complaining if anyone else is doing better than them. We're Irish, lets drag em all down with us. Shame on them for being in a position to command a few bob.

"100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.

wonski

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think doctors are the hardest working people on earth by the way! I am friends with several of them and frankly the way the hospital treat them is akin to slave labor. I really really support their efforts to change things (I don't think the IMO is helping either) but I cannot stand by the attitude of some of these consultants.

I think the same, but at some point - let's be honest here - not every medical proffesional will be earning 300k or whatever they are dreaming of. It happens in every profession - some are lucky and got great job with great pay, some are not so lucky and have to work for the bottom pay scale. By lucky i mean some worked really hard, and some didn't. Some knew right people, and some didn't. Some made good impression at interview, and some didn't. Everyone knows their stories about average people having great job with even better pay. Not everyone gets that lucky.
I have to add that this job comes with big responsibility - this should be accounted for when discussing salary. But clearly, if one want to save lives, and make big bucks - then he is in wrong trade.

Montroseee

pragmatic1 wrote: »

"100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.

Reminds me of a certain K P M G associate

wonski

ilovesleep wrote: »

I doubt very much we'll need to recruit much from abroad. Ireland opened it's boarders back in 2004 to eastern europeans. Many from eastern europe came for work. Many are highly qualified in their studies. We only opened up half of our country to them. Many weren't allowed to work in what they were qualified to do back home in their own country and they flooded the private sector in retail, hospitality, construction, manufacturing etc

I remember working in a job, years ago and working along side many Polish, who were qualified in teaching but couldn't teach here.

I wonder were many qualified in medicine, dentistry, etc? I'm some many came over with such papers and yet I never saw a Polish G.P or Dentist working here. Did you?

There are many, and i mean MANY polish GP's - their speciality is polish patients with no english at all, or very little. Same with dentists.
There are still a lot of emigrants with no English - they struggle to communicate with English speaking GP, so they will go to their native one.

Duggys Housemate

DylanII wrote: »

Of course they aren't going to take it.

If doesnt matter how much you love your job if you are underpaid compared to everyone else in your sector then your not going to do it.

I would not be doing 18 years of Education for 116,000 when everyone else is getting 190,000z

It's the 18 years of poverty that people miss.

I get both annoyed and amused by what people think is a large amout of money. Soccer players, bankers, rock stars, lucky app developers, Russian oligarchs earn many multiples of what the most important workers in the country earn and most people don't care or just say " market forces".

Well with a full private sector health system doctors, surgeons and consultants would earn much more than they do now , and they can earn it in the US by emigrating. Most are therefore underpaid using market values.

southsiderosie

pragmatic1 wrote: »

"100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.

A planet where people who are skilled professionals regularly make over 100K, much of which gets eaten up by student loans and the high cost of living in major metropolitan areas?

af_thefragile

pragmatic1 wrote: »

"100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.

Specialist doctors in USA easily make well over 200-300K a year because much of healthcare there is private.

Even in countries like Germany, although the doctors don't make as much as they do here, the taxes aren't as high, the work environment is a million times better and the cost of living isn't as high as here. So you may not make as much but you're still happier and more satisfied with your job.

And although most medical students and junior doctors will give you some bull**** about doing medicine because they want to help people, truth is most people get into medicine for the same reason people get into any professional field. They want to do something they'll enjoy while having a secure and comfortable future which a field like medicine promises to give.

You can help people by volunteering in a soup kitchen if that's really what you want to do.

partyatmygaff

pragmatic1 wrote: »

"100k is nothing." What fcuking planet do you live on because I'd like to visit.

It's relative. On its own, 100k is a very good salary. But when you compare it to what your similarly qualified colleagues earn abroad and find out you're earning much less, it's not as good.

Most, if not all consultants will have worked abroad for a few years and those newly qualified probably wouldn't have any issue moving back if the salary differences were big enough.

Montroseee

af_thefragile wrote: »

Specialist doctors in USA easily make well over 200-300K a year because much of healthcare there is private.

Even in countries like Germany, although the doctors don't make as much as they do here, the taxes aren't as high, the work environment is a million times better and the cost of living isn't as high as here. So you may not make as much but you're still happier and more satisfied with your job.

And although most medical students and junior doctors will give you some bull**** about doing medicine because they want to help people, truth is most people get into medicine for the same reason people get into any professional field. They want to do something they'll enjoy while having a secure and comfortable future which a field like medicine promises to give.

You can help people by volunteering in a soup kitchen if that's really what you want to do.

You must remember the differences in currency.

pragmatic1

southsiderosie wrote: »

A planet where people who are skilled professionals regularly make over 100K, much of which gets eaten up by student loans and the high cost of living in major metropolitan areas?

Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?

Duggys Housemate

Montroseee wrote: »

You must remember the differences in currency.

I think everybody is compensating for that. Top end consultants in the US earn 100ks - millions

af_thefragile

Montroseee wrote: »

You must remember the differences in currency.

$200k is still heck of a lot of money. Especially in USA where everything is much cheaper than here in Ireland.

Amirani

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?

Your skills obviously aren't in as much demand. As has been pointed out, consultants can early 200/300k abroad, why settle for just 100k?

pragmatic1

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It's relative. On its own, 100k is a very good salary. But when you compare it to what your similarly qualified colleagues earn abroad and find out you're earning much less, it's not as good.

Most, if not all consultants will have worked abroad for a few years and those newly qualified probably wouldn't have any issue moving back if the salary differences were big enough.

Ok can I borrow 100,000 euro please.

southsiderosie

Montroseee wrote: »

You must remember the differences in currency.

116,000 euros = $148,000 US. That's slightly less that what a first-year family practitioner or pediatrician working a set 35-hour week at a government clinic makes in the US.

Turtwig

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?

Pick a skill where's there a higher demand.

af_thefragile

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?

You got into the wrong profession then I guess.

Most people get into medicine expecting to make big money someday. Which is one of the incentives towards to do well in school to get into medschool and then working your ass off for 5-6yrs in medschool to finally become a doctor. If it wasn't for the big rewards people wouldn't put in the big effort it takes to get into and through med school.

ballsymchugh

southsiderosie wrote: »

I disagree.

Anyone, regardless of their field, would like to be treated in a comparable way to their colleagues. This includes both wages and working conditions. If the wages are lower in Ireland, and the HSE is run more poorly than other health care systems, then I don't blame physicians from looking elsewhere.

That said, I do think that if the government (i.e. the public) is footing the bill for medical education, then doctors should have some obligation to work for the HSE (for at least a set period of time). If they want to opt out, then they should refund the state for their education. But I'm not Irish, so I have no idea how this works - who picks up the cost of medical school?

actually, the free fees were brought in around 95, 96, so if my maths are alright, those students that went into med school back then would be lucky if they're at consultant level now. those that have forked out for 3rd level fees and made SFA during non-consultant years are probably just looking for payback.
i've no problem with future consultants having to take some kind of hit though, seeing as though they will have benefited from saving a small fortune on university fees.

southsiderosie

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Cool beans because I'm a skilled professional myself and I'd love to make even half of that a year. Where about is this planet again?

If you have a law degree and work at a private firm, are an associate at a large bank with an MBA, or a physician - even at a government clinic - you are going to make more than 100K base salary in the US - and this is just starting out. High demand positions that require an advanced degree are going to have six-figure salaries in most market economies - emphasis on the high demand part.

pragmatic1

Wow. The whiff of entitlement is strong in this thread. Oiche mhaith.

southsiderosie

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Wow. The whiff of entitlement is strong in this thread. Oiche mhaith.

It's being overwhelmed by the stench of begrudgery.

Chuck Stone

bluewolf wrote: »

Being remunerated in line with that & market rates does not mean they are just "in it for the money".

Let's not pretend there are 'market rates' like there is some sort of natural market equilibrium arrived at when, on the contrary, the public underwrites the training of medical people and the medical profession itself is made deliberately difficult to enter.

If there was such a thing as market equilibrium in the medical profession there'd be a hell of a lot more doctors and consultants being paid a lot less and on performance rather than qualification.

Duggys Housemate

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Wow. The whiff of entitlement is strong in this thread. Oiche mhaith.

The whiff of whiny envy and lack of logic is stronger.

( I'm not a doctor and think consultants are underpaid at 116k)

Montroseee

southsiderosie wrote: »

It's being overwhelmed by the stench of begrudgery.

Are you in the medical profession yourself?

Amirani

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Wow. The whiff of entitlement is strong in this thread. Oiche mhaith.

People who spend 14 years studying and learning, then progress onto a particularly difficult job are entitled to over 100k so I won't argue with you there.

Duggys Housemate

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Let's not pretend there are 'market rates' like there is some sort of natural market equilibrium arrived at when, on the contrary, the public underwrites the training of medical people and the medical profession itself is made deliberately difficult to enter.

If there was such a thing as market equilibrium in the medical profession there'd be a hell of a lot more doctors and consultants being paid a lot less and on performance rather than qualification.

You mean like in the US where they are actually paid a lot more?

af_thefragile

NiallSparky wrote: »

Your skills obviously aren't in as much demand. As has been pointed out, consultants can early 200/300k abroad, why settle for just 100k?

Truth is most doctors I know will be pretty happy with a 100k consultant job as long as its not in some small hospital in the middle of nowhere rural Ireland.

The other side of the story is HSE hasn't increased the number of consultant jobs by any significant margin to make any change. There's still a massive bottleneck after specialist training to be able to get a consultant job. Most people after completing their specialist training are left jobless. They have to resort to doing other below consultant jobs that aren't training jobs which there aren't many around or as most do, travel to USA, Canada, Australia, NZ etc. to do a few years of fellowship training there and then most decide to settle down there with a nice consultant job rather than coming back to Ireland and try their luck towards getting that consultant job for less pay and longer hours that what they could get in other countries.

donegal11

Don't these consultants also make money of private patients which they see in there publicly funded office in the hospitals. They are effectively having the best of both worlds.

Chuck Stone

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You mean like in the US where they are actually paid a lot more?

Because that's a true free market where the costs of healthcare have reached equilibrium?

That's funny.

Montroseee

donegal11 wrote: »

Don't these consultants also make money of private patients which they see in there publicly funded office in the hospitals. They are effectively having the best of both worlds.

Yes, they can do both public and private work.

southsiderosie

Montroseee wrote: »

Are you in the medical profession yourself?

No, I am a lowly underpaid academic researcher in the social sciences who passed up the chance to go to law school in order to pursue a PhD. So I'll spend double the time to finish (6 versus 3 years), and when I graduate, I will make less than half the money (lawyers at large private firms start at around $160K). But that was my decision - I worked as a legal assistant at a private law firm (for more money than I am making now ) and I thought it was horribly boring.

Duggys Housemate

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Because that's a true free market where the costs of healthcare have reached equilibrium?

That's funny.

Explain

1) why it's isn't a free market
2) why you think that an advanced degree like medicine would not earn more money, not less, even if you could prove 1)

To help you a bit with 2) - cosmetic surgery is as free market as you can get in the US. Mostly paid for with cash rather than insurance with the exception of reconstructive surgery. Cosmetic surgeons easily become millionaires.

The evidence is that if we had a totally free market system for health doctors and consultants would be earning much much more.

take everything

People who don't want to work for significantly less than their colleagues (who do exactly the same job) leave to find job that pay better.

So?

southsiderosie

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Explain

1) why it's isn't a free market
2) why you think that an advanced degree like medicine would not earn more money, not less, even if you could prove 1)

To help you a bit with 2) - cosmetic surgery is as free market as you can get in the US. Mostly paid for with cash rather than insurance with the exception of reconstructive surgery. Cosmetic surgeons easily become millionaires.

The evidence is that if we had a totally free market system for health doctors and consultants would be earning much much more.

Well, not necessarily, given the extent to which professional associations block expanding the number of available slots for medical school and residencies. It may be a market system for patients in the US, but there is still a rather medieval guild system when it comes to physicians.

ejmaztec

Any old fool can be a consultant, and if they do get out of their depth, they can always start a thread in AH asking for advice, and we can give them step by step instructions to help get their patients out of the sh1t.

Montroseee

southsiderosie wrote: »

No, I am a lowly underpaid academic researcher in the social sciences who passed up the chance to go to law school in order to pursue a PhD. So I'll spend double the time to finish (6 versus 3 years), and when I graduate, I will make less than half the money (lawyers at large private firms start at around $160K). But that was my decision - I worked as a legal assistant at a private law firm (for more money than I am making now ) and I thought it was horribly boring.

Didn't know lawyers start on that amount, would have thought it was about half that, maybe I'm in the wrong business

wonski

ejmaztec wrote: »

Any old fool can be a consultant, and if they do get out of their depth, they can always start a thread in AH asking for advice, and we can give them step by step instructions to help get their patients out of the sh1t.

Almost forgot this was After Hours after all. Thanks for reminding. We stayed on topic for at least 3 pages.

Montroseee

wonski wrote: »

Almost forgot this was After Hours after all. Thanks for reminding. We stayed on topic for at least 3 pages.

There's always one fool.

take everything

Good thread about this on Politics.ie as well.
Interesting point by the OP there that the pay of bankers who helped to ruin the country is still multiples of most consultants' pay. The government cite the "these financial geniuses could just go elsewhere" excuse and so you have the 500 grand pay.
But when it comes to consultants, whose jobs are arguably far more important, this doesn't seem to apply at all and their pay is just cut like that.
Well this is the result.

If these highly-skilled people want to leave for proper pay, so what?

Also, the stench of begrudgery from a couple of posters in the politics thread is great.

Montroseee

take everything wrote: »

Good thread about this on Politics.ie as well.
Interesting point by the OP there that the pay of bankers who helped to ruin the country is still multiples of most consultants' pay. The government cite the "these financial geniuses could just go elsewhere" excuse and so you have the 500 grand pay.
But when it comes to consultants, whose jobs are arguably far more important, this doesn't seem to apply at all and their pay is just cut like that.
Well this is the result.

If these highly-skilled people want to leave for proper pay, so what?

Could you link that thread here please.

sock puppet

Montroseee wrote: »

Didn't know lawyers start on that amount, would have thought it was about half that, maybe I'm in the wrong business

In the US yes. Even in London I think it's less than half that, in part I imagine due to the massive student loans US students graduate with. Also only a minority of students will get those jobs too.

take everything

Montroseee wrote: »

Could you link that thread here please.

Just did there

Chuck Stone

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Explain

1) why it's isn't a free market

In a free market equilibrium is reached by supply meeting demand. The demand for medical services is high and inescapable (people don't really get ill by choice) but the supply of medical people is low. Entry to the medical professions is restricted by high points in University and high costs (remember that high points =/= aptitude). Also, the medical professions would fight any liberalization tooth and nail (ask any nurse or pharmacist).

2) why you think that an advanced degree like medicine would not earn more money, not less, even if you could prove

Don't you think on-the-job competency rather than qualification should dictate earnings? Or do you think qualification should be a golden ticket?

To help you a bit with 2) - cosmetic surgery is as free market...

This only underscores your own lack of understanding rather than helping me. You still have to get through all the artificial barriers to become a surgeon so forget throwing around that 'free market' term.

The evidence is that if we had a totally free market system for health doctors and consultants would be earning much much more.

This is just so wrong. There's a high demand to enter the medical profession because of the rewards and yet supply never seems to meet demand - the points remain high for Uni and so does pay. Why do you think that is?

Surinam

Montroseee wrote: »

Didn't know lawyers start on that amount, would have thought it was about half that, maybe I'm in the wrong business

You'd be right, the other poster is talking complete drivel if they think an Irish solicitor starts on 6 figures. The average trainee is on around €30k and when they qualify they will be earning anywhere between €40-€60k for a few years - it would go up after that of course but only (very) senior associates and partners would be earning 6 figures.

Even in the US, only the absolute best lawyers on large wall street firms would start on salaries somewhere near the figures the other poster gave.

People who have been educated by this State with free college education owe, in my opinion, some degree of loyalty to the country. Someone who turns down €116,000 was clearly only ever motivated by money/prestige and is in medicine for the wrong reasons.

They cannot simply compare their salaries to the US where graduates literally emerge from college with $300,000 + in debt to pay for their degrees. The market forces over there are clearly totally different - most of their care is private and the market has to compensate for the huge debt their graduates have to pay off. Irish medical graduates would emerge with college debt of minuscule proportions compared to Americans.

Chuck Stone

southsiderosie wrote: »

Well, not necessarily, given the extent to which professional associations block expanding the number of available slots for medical school and residencies.

On the money.

Pun intended.

Grayson

Jumboman wrote: »

It just shows that they didnt get into medicine to help people but to line their own pockets.

I know someone who's a consultant. He started studying at 15 for the junior cert. He's been studying every night since. And I mean every single night. At least an hour or two if not more. Doesn't even watch TV. I think that anyone who studies that long, and studies that hard is dedicated to their profession.

BTW, if you have 20 years of experience in any field where you've been continuously sitting exams, you'd be on that much money. It's the equivalent of a CCNE in networking or any other industry exam to that level. They have more experience that someone like you could imagine.

wolfpawnat

NiallSparky wrote: »

You'll find this in any college course in the country. I think it's unfair to make it seem like it's only in medicine you'd find such an attitude.

Oh God no, it is everywhere. I am merely giving an example relevant to the appropriate field. When said partner went into veterinary, there was a city girl who didn't realise there was different breeds of cattle and sheep and was convinced that it was a 9-5 Monday to Friday job (I laughed for 15 min at that one!) and I studied nursing where there were girls horrified that nurses would have to....... wash an invalid patient! Oh the horror!!!! Yeah intelligent idiots are plentiful I am afraid!

Is this salary JUST the HSE basic pone or does it include the private practice one that so many consultants have also.

There are many consultants living on just HSE salaries (which are not shabby) but many consultants have private clinics too where they charge heftily for the pleasure of their services. My son went to and ENT consultant, 180 first visit, operation cost 750, then check up cost of 100. Another consultant in an unrelated field was €120. The more specialist, the more expensive (makes sense in a way, cardiologists, neurologists, etc are the most skilled doctors in the world working on the most intricate and important areas of human anatomy, but their private clinics rake in copious amounts of money in comparison to their HSE salary ones.