€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

wolfpawnat

April O Neill wrote: »

Two things.

1) Looking at final year medicine exam papers and being surprised at how easy the sciency stuff was.

2) My friend who is studying graduate medicine being told she would never need to know here primary degree subject (a science related to medicine) as in depth as she knows it when using it in medicine.

The course itself seems to be more anatomy, physiology and pharmacology based and getting practice and then specialising into the sciences after you do your intern year if that what tickles your particular fancy. 5 years is not that long to shove everything into. Science is not the main part of medicine, but learning what drugs are needed to treat each patient and learning every little muscle in the body, its function and what it is connected to and where is not an easy task either.

The last year is more based on hospital experience rather than book based academics which is crammed into the first 3 and a bit years.

caroline1111

April O Neill wrote: »

Two things.

1) Looking at final year medicine exam papers and being surprised at how easy the sciency stuff was.

2) My friend who is studying graduate medicine being told she would never need to know here primary degree subject (a science related to medicine) as in depth as she knows it when using it in medicine.

I haven't seen any final med papers yet but as far as I know it's a lot more clinically based and relevant to the job rather than focusing on the basic sciences. Perhaps if you saw a 2nd or 3rd year exam it would seem a lot more scientific.
Of course you do not need to know the content of every branch of science degree in medicine - a lot of it isn't relevant to the job though when I was in 1st med we were in with 3rd year physiology students and had to do the same exam as them with extra questions for us, in 2nd year I was in with 3rd year neuroscientists, etc..

Annabella1

It needs to be said that Junior Doctors are true heroes of the Health System continually working illegal long hours.They also consistently take the lowest sick leave in the Health Service

sock puppet

Grayson wrote: »

It's the same in the UK too isn't it? the only people exempt are Police, the army and junior doctors.

I'm pretty sure in the UK anyone can be exempt if they agree to it. In Ireland people just ignore it.

awec

April O Neill wrote: »

Once you get in, it's not particularly difficult. There's a large volume of work but say the science you need to know isn't massively in-depth. It would be no more intellectually difficult than a great many college courses.

Strange.

I have a Computer Science degree and I lived with a dentistry student during college (they do the same course as medicine students for the first year) and I can tell you now his course was vastly more difficult than anything I was doing.

And that's along with longer hours (I had a 15 hour week, he was in 9-5 Monday to Friday).

Do I begrudge any consultant getting 116 grand a year? Nope.

I'd love to earn that amount myself, hopefully I will some day. I aspire to get there, rather than aspiring to drag them down to my level.

April O Neill

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The course itself seems to be more anatomy, physiology and pharmacology based and getting practice and then specialising into the sciences after you do your intern year if that what tickles your particular fancy. 5 years is not that long to shove everything into. Science is not the main part of medicine, but learning what drugs are needed to treat each patient and learning every little muscle in the body, its function and what it is connected to and where is not an easy task either.

The last year is more based on hospital experience rather than book based academics which is crammed into the first 3 and a bit years.

caroline1111 wrote: »

I haven't seen any final med papers yet but as far as I know it's a lot more clinically based and relevant to the job rather than focusing on the basic sciences. Perhaps if you saw a 2nd or 3rd year exam it would seem a lot more scientific.
Of course you do not need to know the content of every branch of science degree in medicine - a lot of it isn't relevant to the job though when I was in 1st med we were in with 3rd year physiology students and had to do the same exam as them with extra questions for us, in 2nd year I was in with 3rd year neuroscientists, etc..

I'm not saying there's aren't tough parts, but I think it's a misconception that it's a particularly difficult degree.

April O Neill

awec wrote: »

Strange.

I have a Computer Science degree and I lived with a dentistry student during college (they do the same course as medicine students for the first year) and I can tell you now his course was vastly more difficult than anything I was doing.

You lived with people doing different courses to you and because of that know how difficult those courses were? Strange indeed!

awec

April O Neill wrote: »

I'm not saying there's aren't tough parts, but I think it's a misconception that it's a particularly difficult degree.

It just has very high entry requirements for the craic does it?

awec

April O Neill wrote: »

You lived with people doing different courses to you and because of that know how difficult those courses were? Strange indeed!

Well, it's as valid a comparison as yours. :pac:

steddyeddy

awec wrote: »

It just has very high entry requirements for the craic does it?

It's just based on demand not difficulty.

Taco Chips

April O Neill wrote: »

Once you get in, it's not particularly difficult. There's a large volume of work but say the science you need to know isn't massively in-depth. It would be no more intellectually difficult than a great many college courses.

That's not true. I have the benefit of having been a theoretical physics student as well as a medical student and the work rates are nowhere near each other. TP had elements that were conceptually more difficult, but the volume of material was a fraction in comparison. There are plenty of aspects of medicine that are also extremely complex. But as a med student I spend the majority of every day at lectures and then the following evening/night in the library. And that goes for nearly everyone in my class. It is an extremely difficult course.

pragmatic1

awec wrote: »

Strange.

I have a Computer Science degree and I lived with a dentistry student during college (they do the same course as medicine students for the first year) and I can tell you now his course was vastly more difficult than anything I was doing.

And that's along with longer hours (I had a 15 hour week, he was in 9-5 Monday to Friday).

Do I begrudge any consultant getting 116 grand a year? Nope.

I'd love to earn that amount myself, hopefully I will some day. I aspire to get there, rather than aspiring to drag them down to my level.

9-5 Monday to Friday is pretty standard for most science degrees.

Mardy Bum

I'm sure all the advocates for the consultants will also be in favour of paying new teachers the same as their counterparts in the profession.

steddyeddy

Cian92 wrote: »

The one thing about science and biochem in particular, the points are so low lots of those who get into biochem in UCC are never gonna stick it out. Maybe if there were less places the points would go up and there wouldn't be a large drop out rate.

Or if the colleges could attract a better calibre of student for the sciences. I'm not sure that would work all that well, when they can get better paying jobs from other degree courses that require less work and are even seen as more prestigious. That prestige isn't attached to science courses, except of course medicine.

Well in relation to biochem and any biology related science degree I can say that points are not a good indication of suitability for the course. Lectures have been fighting with the department of education for years in order to make biology relevant. The leaving cert doesn't prepare people at all for science. If you make leaving cert science more relevant you may attract those of a better caliber. At the moment I wouldn't judge a persons caliber from their leaving cert alone.

Well the Conway institute is certainly prestigious as regards molecular biology. I think that most people would think of curing disease to be prestigious.

April O Neill

Taco Chips wrote: »

That's not true. I have the benefit of having been a theoretical physics student as well as a medical student and the work rates are nowhere near each other.

Work rates may be higher in medicine, but the study material is no harder than any science and easier than many sciences. Getting away from sciences, language degrees are extremely full-on AND difficult.

April O Neill

pragmatic1 wrote: »

9-5 Monday to Friday is pretty standard for most science degrees.

Yup.

steddyeddy

Taco Chips wrote: »

That's not true. I have the benefit of having been a theoretical physics student as well as a medical student and the work rates are nowhere near each other. TP had elements that were conceptually more difficult, but the volume of material was a fraction in comparison. There are plenty of aspects of medicine that are also extremely complex. But as a med student I spend the majority of every day at lectures and then the following evening/night in the library. And that goes for nearly everyone in my class. It is an extremely difficult course.

I think that some scientists have a problem with the claim that medicine is far and away the most difficult course. The general view is that it's harder to get a doctorate of science than a doctorate of medicine.

During my phd I am required to do some tutoring and demonstrating. Since my qualification is as a biochemist I usually give tutorials in that or genetics. Some of those modules have medical students studying he biochemistry part of medicine and they say that biochemistry is one of the hardest parts of medicine.

If as people say they were doing science and found it easy compared to medicine then they weren't working hard enough frankly. Getting a doctorate in science is f-ing hard to say the least!

April O Neill

Taco Chips wrote: »

But as a med student I spend the majority of every day at lectures and then the following evening/night in the library. And that goes for nearly everyone in my class.

Ditto for my science degree. Many hours and more in-depth.

steddyeddy

pragmatic1 wrote: »

9-5 Monday to Friday is pretty standard for most science degrees.

Plus 1! Labs, lectures and tutorials!

steddyeddy

Taco Chips wrote: »

That's not true. I have the benefit of having been a theoretical physics student as well as a medical student and the work rates are nowhere near each other. TP had elements that were conceptually more difficult, but the volume of material was a fraction in comparison. There are plenty of aspects of medicine that are also extremely complex. But as a med student I spend the majority of every day at lectures and then the following evening/night in the library. And that goes for nearly everyone in my class. It is an extremely difficult course.

Which bits out of interest?

Taco Chips

April O Neill wrote: »

Work rates may be higher in medicine, but the study material is no harder than any science and easier than many sciences. Getting away from sciences, language degrees are extremely full-on AND difficult.

That's a generalisation. No two modules are created the same. Medicine covers several branches of science. Of course each one isn't going to be taught as in depth as someone studying it a single honour. But med students cover a huge breadth of topics across several different modules. I could argue that it's much harder to excel in several areas that it is to specialise in one. That's why specialiasation in medicine doesn't happen until post graduate.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think that some scientists have a problem with the claim that medicine is far and away the most difficult course. The general view is that it's harder to get a doctorate of science than a doctorate of medicine.

During my phd I am required to do some tutoring and demonstrating. Since my qualification is as a biochemist I usually give tutorials in that or genetics. Some of those modules have medical students studying he biochemistry part of medicine and they say that biochemistry is one of the hardest parts of medicine.

If as people say they were doing science and found it easy compared to medicine then they weren't working hard enough frankly. Getting a doctorate in science is f-ing hard to say the least!

Sure biochem is a hard module. So is learning every single bone, nerve, vessel, ligament and the physiology of those systems. So imagine doing all of that.

No one is arguing that other courses aren't also extremely difficult. I acknowledged myself that when I was studying theoretical physics there were parts that were more abstract and harder to grasp than anything in medicine, but overall I found studying medicine harder because the work volume is much higher and the pressure level is also greater.

April O Neill wrote: »

Ditto for my science degree. Many hours and more in-depth.

More in depth in your specific area of science. I can just as easily argue that my degree is much more in depth in medicine than yours is. That's the nature of having different degrees covering different disciplines. But what is the point? My friend's degree is more in depth in the history of architecture than mine.

awec

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I'm sure all the advocates for the consultants will also be in favour of paying new teachers the same as their counterparts in the profession.

Why?

awec

Nobody has said medicine is the hardest. They have said it's extremely difficult.

caroline1111

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think that some scientists have a problem with the claim that medicine is far and away the most difficult course. The general view is that it's harder to get a doctorate of science than a doctorate of medicine.

During my phd I am required to do some tutoring and demonstrating. Since my qualification is as a biochemist I usually give tutorials in that or genetics. Some of those modules have medical students studying he biochemistry part of medicine and they say that biochemistry is one of the hardest parts of medicine.

If as people say they were doing science and found it easy compared to medicine then they weren't working hard enough frankly. Getting a doctorate in science is f-ing hard to say the least!

Why are you comparing a phd with medicine, an undergraduate degree? Many people who study medicine will go on to do a phd to become a consultant.

What makes biochem difficult as a med student is that you cover a lot of it in a very short space of time and only brush the surface of a range of topics- I found myself reading stryer for hours and reading around the topics and it was very interesting as you understand it but in medicine you do not have the luxury of time to spend reading in depth about so many different areas...

steddyeddy

awec wrote: »

Nobody has said medicine is the hardest. They have said it's extremely difficult.

As is a lot of other things within science.

caroline1111

steddyeddy wrote: »

As is a lot of other things within science.

And what is your point? If you're a good scientist, after 15/20 years you could be making big bucks either in academia or working for a drug company or something...

Taco Chips

steddyeddy wrote: »

As is a lot of other things within science.

You're not making any point here and this is just going off topic now. Yes other degrees in science are hard. No one said they weren't. This topic is talking about the lifelong difficulty of a career in medicine from undergraduate to consultant. It's tough, it's competitive and it stays that way throughout your life and now new consultants aren't being paid or treated properly by the HSE, so they are leaving to seek better conditions as is their prerogative.

pragmatic1

steddyeddy wrote: »

Plus 1! Labs, lectures and tutorials!

Yep and in the final year of your undergrad, you'll likely be spending 14+ hours a day either in lectures, doing assignment, laboratory practicals, studying or working on your final year project.

Reality_Check1

ah the after hours forum where the internet meets Joe Duffy!

Option A - nice working conditions, respect from the public, job security and 200k

Option B - worst working conditions in the EU, a begrudging public, no job security and 116k

Tell me oh logical people of AH who in their right mind would pick option B?

Of course it isnt all about the money but to be honest that and the respect of the people were all that was keeping doctors in this country. Now Im not sure which is falling faster

The saying goes you reep what you sew and the HSE with its policies has guaranteed that if our Health system doesnt collapse in the next 5 years we will have the worst one in the Western world

caroline1111

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Yep and in the final year of your undergrad, you'll likely be spending 14+ hours a day either in lectures, doing assignment, laboratory practicals, studying or working on your final year project.

Again, what's your point? If you're clever enough and work hard enough after 15+ years you should be able to make good money in academia or working for a private company, with less stress and better conditions/hours

Reality_Check1

why are you even comparing subjects is what I dont understand? If the consequences of a miscalculation while figuring out a physics problem were the same as writing out a drug prescription im sure all science graduates would earn top bracket wages

again just senseless begrudgery it really is sad to see

Taco Chips

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

why are you even comparing subjects is what I dont understand? If the consequences of a miscalculation while figuring out a physics problem were the same as writing out a drug prescription im sure all science graduates would earn top bracket wages

again just senseless begrudgery it really is sad to see

Exactly, the whole attitude is 'well my degree has biochem that is WAY more detailed than in medicine, and I don't earn what a consultant earns'. That's not even approaching the point of all this.

sock puppet

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

why are you even comparing subjects is what I dont understand? If the consequences of a miscalculation while figuring out a physics problem were the same as writing out a drug prescription im sure all science graduates would earn top bracket wages

Well the consequences could be many, many deaths depending on the nature of the physics problem...

The remuneration of a job has little to do with its importance anyway. If it did then cleaners would be millionaires and management consultants would be living on the streets.

true

Montroseee wrote: »

A similar consultant in Germany will be doing well to ever break 100k, same story with the UK.

+1. And they are the countries which along with the rest of the IMF etc are bailing us out / helping to ensure we can borrow the money to pay the consultants.

The consultants here should work for less than the 100k they would get in a major developed industrialised nuclear power country with economy of scale like the UK or Germany. We certainly cannot afford to pay more than the going rate in those countries. Time they cop on.

dxhound2005

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

ah the after hours forum where the internet meets Joe Duffy!

Option A - nice working conditions, respect from the public, job security and 200k

Option B - worst working conditions in the EU, a begrudging public, no job security and 116k

Tell me oh logical people of AH who in their right mind would pick option B?

Of course it isnt all about the money but to be honest that and the respect of the people were all that was keeping doctors in this country. Now Im not sure which is falling faster

The saying goes you reep what you sew and the HSE with its policies has guaranteed that if our Health system doesnt collapse in the next 5 years we will have the worst one in the Western world

I don't know anything about job security, working conditions or lack of public respect for doctors in other countries except for some bad things reported about the NHS.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9964434/A-new-day-dawns-for-the-health-service.html

But on the simple comparison between €200K and €116K are you saying that €200K is the starting salary everywhere else?

pragmatic1

Taco Chips wrote: »

Exactly, the whole attitude is 'well my degree has biochem that is WAY more detailed than in medicine, and I don't earn what a consultant earns'. That's not even approaching the point of all this.

No it was more open mouthed awe at someone saying midway through this thread "100K is nothing" and a general God complex that some posters seem to have.

awec

pragmatic1 wrote: »

No it was more open mouthed awe at someone saying midway through this thread "100K is nothing" and a general God complex that some posters seem to have.

These things always sound more hysterical if you take them completely out of context.

sock puppet

true wrote: »

The consultants here should work for less than the 100k they would get in a major developed industrialised nuclear power country with economy of scale like the UK or Germany. We certainly cannot afford to pay more than the going rate in those countries. Time they cop on.

Surely they should just work in whatever job they want like everyone else. They wouldn't be the first people to leave Ireland for better oportunities.

caroline1111

true wrote: »

+1. And they are the countries which along with the rest of the IMF etc are bailing us out / helping to ensure we can borrow the money to pay the consultants.

The consultants here should work for less than the 100k they would get in a major developed industrialised nuclear power country with economy of scale like the UK or Germany. We certainly cannot afford to pay more than the going rate in those countries. Time they cop on.

Without knowing the amount of hours worked by doctors in Germany compared with doctors in Ireland you can't compare like for like. It would be interesting to see what each is paid per hour. The fact that Irish doctors are leaving here speaks for itself, they are hardly emigrating to work somewhere else for less money in the same or worse conditions, what would be the logic for that?

Traumadoc

Many Irish docs are now working as consultant s in other countries, if you want to come back to Ireland you have to consider that you will take-home pay will be considerably less that what you are currently earning.

A consultant in Australia earns between A$ 320-400k (€325K) after tax vs €48K in Ireland.:eek:

Taco Chips

true wrote: »

+1. And they are the countries which along with the rest of the IMF etc are bailing us out / helping to ensure we can borrow the money to pay the consultants.

The consultants here should work for less than the 100k they would get in a major developed industrialised nuclear power country with economy of scale like the UK or Germany. We certainly cannot afford to pay more than the going rate in those countries. Time they cop on.

So tell me this, as we are an EU nation and German consultants under labour laws can easily come over here to work providing they have good English. In theory they could 'clean up' working over here compared to Germany, seeing as the Irish wage is so 'generous'. So why don't they? Ask yourself this question on a wider scale. Why, if these positions are so lucrative, aren't more English speaking doctors coming over to fill them? Why does the HSE have to recruit African doctors from their home countries who don't know any better about the system here? Could it be because most doctors in their right mind know that the abuse and the working conditions aren't worth it, so they get jobs in countries where they are treated properly instead?

dlouth15

I think there's a realisation that the day 180 to 200k starting salaries for consultants in Ireland are gone forever. The economy is on it's knees and countries with far better economies in the EU such as Germany don't pay anywhere near that.

Therefore working conditions and other factors need to be looked at. One thing I think could be done is to make it easier for foreign doctors to come here. Ireland is a small country yet exams similar to those in much larger countries have to be passed in order to work here. Same hurdle but less benefit due to the smaller market. Perhaps greater recognition of qualifications gained elsewhere would ease mobility.

The Commission, which highlights that Irish hospital doctors earn twice what their UK counterparts get, wants the Government to recognise more degrees from Europe and further afield. The HSE recognises far fewer degrees than the UK, for example. URL="http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/doctors-here-are-paid-too-much-says-new-eu-report-28957384.html"]source[/URL

steddyeddy

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

why are you even comparing subjects is what I dont understand? If the consequences of a miscalculation while figuring out a physics problem were the same as writing out a drug prescription im sure all science graduates would earn top bracket wages

again just senseless begrudgery it really is sad to see

There's that word again, begrudgery. People criticize whether someone is worth a certain salary and they are labeled begrudgers who should keep their mouths shut and not question their betters.

Science graduates can make top bracket wages but they would never bang on about 116k being nothing as it has been called in this thread.

dxhound2005

Traumadoc wrote: »

Many Irish docs are now working as consultant s in other countries, if you want to come back to Ireland you have to consider that you will take-home pay will be considerably less that what you are currently earning.

A consultant in Australia earns between A$ 320-400k (€325K) after tax vs €48K in Ireland.:eek:

Is that €48K for the new contracts or the existing ones? And is the €325K the starting salary?

Montroseee

Traumadoc wrote: »

Many Irish docs are now working as consultant s in other countries, if you want to come back to Ireland you have to consider that you will take-home pay will be considerably less that what you are currently earning.

A consultant in Australia earns between A$ 320-400k (€325K) after tax vs €48K in Ireland.:eek:

Your not factoring in living costs, a mars bar in Australia is nearly 4 dollars. They also don't receive as large pensions.

Those figures are also incorrect, a consultant in oz will be on a base pay of circa 250k.

dissed doc

dlouth15 wrote: »

I think there's a realisation that the day 180 to 200k starting salaries for consultants in Ireland are gone forever. The economy is on it's knees and countries with far better economies in the EU such as Germany don't pay anywhere near that.

Therefore working conditions and other factors need to be looked at. One thing I think could be done is to make it easier for foreign doctors to come here. Ireland is a small country yet exams similar to those in much larger countries have to be passed in order to work here. Same hurdle but less benefit due to the smaller market. Perhaps greater recognition of qualifications gained elsewhere would ease mobility.

Actually they do pay that. They also prioritise the maintenance of medical specialist staffing through the peaks and troughs of the economic cycle; it provides the basis for the social contract. IN Ireland there is little forward planning and so maintenance of experienced medical specialists (to keep the health service functioning through a recession like now) is not prioritised.

It's similar to why Germany will keep police, healthcare, etc., running through the recession; the will remove minimum wage and reduce welfare benefits but keep services running. In Ireland, the government has been cutting services to keep welfare (both the social kind, and the kind of private sector welfare that keeps dysfunctional business open).

There is a worldwide shortage of medical specialists. Ireland would do well to maintain good relations and reputation if maintaining an experienced group of specialists is a priority. Clearly, it isn't. So, the result is obvious, and is what people have voted for. Demand is just not there, so don't expect people to change.

Traumadoc

Montroseee wrote: »

Your not factoring in living costs, a mars bar in Australia is nearly 4 dollars. They also don't receive as large pensions.

Those figures are also incorrect, a consultant in oz will be on a base pay of circa 250k.

Most consultant jobs in Australia start at $340k but rise rapidly to A$ 400K+ there are jobs offering A$500 k starting , added in will be a CME fund of 20K per year.

Pay does vary state to state.

Traumadoc

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Is that €48K for the new contracts or the existing ones? And is the €325K the starting salary?

48k would be for new contracts, existing public only contracts would take home 74-78K.

325k would be starting for some jobs.

Reality_Check1

steddyeddy wrote: »

There's that word again, begrudgery. People criticize whether someone is worth a certain salary and they are labeled begrudgers who should keep their mouths shut and not question their betters.

Science graduates can make top bracket wages but they would never bang on about 116k being nothing as it has been called in this thread.

that's because to a science grad 116k isnt nothing (no offense) but to a consultant its actually poor compared to what the going rate is, Its all relative

ArmaniJeanss

dlouth15 wrote: »

Therefore working conditions and other factors need to be looked at. One thing I think could be done is to make it easier for foreign doctors to come here. Ireland is a small country yet exams similar to those in much larger countries have to be passed in order to work here. Same hurdle but less benefit due to the smaller market. Perhaps greater recognition of qualifications gained elsewhere would ease mobility.

Why would these foreign consultants choose Ireland over country XXX, assuming they are of the same qualification as Irish consultants who are choosing country XXX where there is a demand for them.