The evolution of music

Arse Biscuits!

Ok well I was at work this evening and as normally happens my mind started wondering and this weird question came into my head as I was listening to the music in the background. Now the reason I'm posting here is because I'm from a physics & chemistry background so I havn't much knowledge in cultural evolution.

So the question I have is, does anyone have theories as to the first recorded instance of music being created? Be it song, music or simply a beat. I'm curious as I would like to know if the creation of music can be actually traced back to a single source? Also, and the answer is probably yes but I'm curious as to how, would a completely isolated community create it's own music if it had never heard any type before?

Let's pose a hypothetical experiment. You have two communities: A and B.

A) A community that is near a forest, numerous sounds, birds singing, mating calls etc. can be heard throughout the year. This community has never heard any form of music but knows the sounds birds make etc. Trade routes to other communities of the same nature.

A completely isolated community, no sound nearby except maybe wind. No trade routes, just totally isolated (lets pretend in the middle of a desert). The community has also never heard music of any form.

(By music I mean song, beat, instrument)

Is A much more likely to create music than B? And why? If the answer is yes, why is B at a disadvantage to A other than not having the influence of external sound?

These might seem like stupid questions but I'm just interested to hear what someone who might have a lot of knowledge in this area has to say, really I'm just interested in the origin of music, if there is a theory of it, and it's evolution. I mean there are some very very complicated compositions out there, it's interesting to see the evolution from cavemen humming to bach or mozart

studiorat

I’ve a load of unfinished research on the psychology of hearing and music cognition. I’m not too up on the whole social science lark but I’ve read a little about it. There are quite a few theories and “ologies” concerning the evolution of music, Evolutionary Musicology, Biomusicology, Music Archeology, Cognitive Neuroscience plain old vanilla flavored Anthropology and many more I suspect. I’ve a bit of time on my hands so let’s see where this goes…

Arse Biscuits! wrote: »

So the question I have is, does anyone have theories as to the first recorded instance of music being created? Be it song, music or simply a beat. I'm curious as I would like to know if the creation of music can be actually traced back to a single source?

In my opinion the answer to that is a most definite no. I would put music on a par with language and I feel that trying to find an absolute first instance of the use of language would be a similar pursuit. The way our brain perceives music and how it processes language are closely linked. So I think it’s a reasonable assumption to say that both language and music may have evolved in similar ways.

Perhaps a first use of written music would be possible. I use written in a vague sense meaning the first time a piece of music was performed in the same way more than once. But I suppose trying to find a first use of written language would be as difficult.

Arse Biscuits! wrote: »

Let's pose a hypothetical experiment. You have two communities: A and B.

A) A community that is near a forest, numerous sounds, birds singing, mating calls etc. can be heard throughout the year. This community has never heard any form of music but knows the sounds birds make etc. Trade routes to other communities of the same nature.

A completely isolated community, no sound nearby except maybe wind. No trade routes, just totally isolated (lets pretend in the middle of a desert). The community has also never heard music of any form.

(By music I mean song, beat, instrument)

Is A much more likely to create music than B? And why? If the answer is yes, why is B at a disadvantage to A other than not having the influence of external sound?

Anthropologists have yet to discover a single human culture without its own form of music. I would say that either group is likely to create music independently. Also if two people from these villages ever met chances are they would try and exchange words, sounds or even music. I think music comes from a more primitive emotion than trying to create abstract versions of the sounds we hear around us. It is communication on a purely emotional level.

Flutes have been found in Germany, which are made of mammoth bone and thought to be 43,000 years old. This would suggest that there were musical instruments around at the same time as Neanderthal man. Mind you they were painting DNA double helix diagrams on cave walls around the same time. ;-) But it’s generally believed that the earliest music was more than likely vocalizations rather than instrumental so the technology need to create music would not need to be traded between groups.

Arse Biscuits! wrote: »

These might seem like stupid questions but I'm just interested to hear what someone who might have a lot of knowledge in this area has to say, really I'm just interested in the origin of music, if there is a theory of it, and it's evolution. I mean there are some very very complicated compositions out there, it's interesting to see the evolution from cavemen humming to bach or mozart

There are hundreds of academics across many disciplines who spend much of their time studying these questions and coming up with hypothesis’. They can’t all be that stupid (all of the time). In the “Descent of Man” Charles Darwin proposed that

“Musical tones and rhythm were used by the half-human progenitors of man, during the season of courtship, when animals of all kinds are excited by the strongest passions,” (Darwin 1871)

This suggests perhaps music evolved from pre-language communication. And that it continued to evolve alongside language even though it wasn’t strictly needed anymore.

“As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least direct use to man in reference to his ordinary habits of life, they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed,” (Darwin 1871).

Following up on the theory that music doesn’t have a particular function for humans. The cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker wrote

“I suspect that music is auditory cheesecake, an exquisite confection crafted to tickle the sensitive spots of at least six of our mental faculties.” (“How the Mind Works,” 1997).

The “cheesecake” hypothesis is famous at this stage but there are many theories that support it up to a point. Rarely do you read anything on the subject without a “Pinkerism” or two thrown in.

Reading similar theories from a couple of sources, I personally suspect that music evolved from pre-language, or vocal communication without words. Much in the same way as a mother coo’s to a baby in patterns of rhythm and intonation different to normal speech. Baby talk is generally thought to be (with some exceptions) universal. These vocalizations communicate emotional content without any syntax. We as humans are very attuned to detect emotions in language without any syntax at all. We can often detect emotional messages with other animals- we can all understand the emotions of a dog when they are barking. For example whether he’s threatening, playful, frightened etc.

So if we consider music to be the evolution of emotional communication, and syntactic or formal language to be an evolution of language stemming from a need to communicate more scientific or specific information. I would suggest that both music and language evolved from one source. With the need to communicate more abstract concepts formal language evolved. Since there are much fewer emotions to be communicated, music evolved in a way where the language of music became more complex while the messages we use it to convey have remained relatively few.

That’s my tupence worth inanyways. It doesn’t take into account the “grooming/gossip” theories of language. Or examine how music is both a social activity (ceremonies, celebrations etc.) and also a solitary activity.

Did music for develop for example to mark out terroritory or frighten away enemy tribes or predators? I haven’t read the book but “Songlines” (can’t remember the author) talks about Indigenous Australians using music to mark out trails throughout their land.


Anyway that’s enough of me going off on one. I think as a theory some ideas of how we went from Neanderthal man banging on bits of wood to Mozart and Bach banging on bits of wood be what happened. Though it’s probably a little of everything.

Some reading :
http://daniellevitin.com/publicpage/books/this-is-your-brain-on-music/

Ex-record producer and neuroscientist with a spooky Deepak Chopra-like presence on-line and on the “wellbeing and magic crystals” lecture circuit. Excellent books though, worth a read.

http://www.oliversacks.com/

Dr. Oliver Sachs’ “Musicophilia” is an excellent journey through the strange and somewhat disturbing experiences of the people he has worked with as a physician and neurologist. Examining music and the brain through people with disorders the book is both curious and compassionate.



http://mindmodeling.org/cogsci2012/papers/0248/paper0248.pdf
Rather technical paper on how humans can perceive emotion through musical sounds.

http://anthro.vancouver.wsu.edu/media/PDF/musicae.pdf
Paper on music and dance as territorial displays.

Like I said a bit of everything perhaps...

belcampprisoner

when adam and eve where around

eve would play the whistle

Arse Biscuits!

studiorat wrote: »

I’ve a load of unfinished research on the psychology of hearing and music cognition. I’m not too up on the whole social science lark but I’ve read a little about it. There are quite a few theories and “ologies” concerning the evolution of music, Evolutionary Musicology, Biomusicology, Music Archeology, Cognitive Neuroscience plain old vanilla flavored Anthropology and many more I suspect. I’ve a bit of time on my hands so let’s see where this goes…



In my opinion the answer to that is a most definite no. I would put music on a par with language and I feel that trying to find an absolute first instance of the use of language would be a similar pursuit. The way our brain perceives music and how it processes language are closely linked. So I think it’s a reasonable assumption to say that both language and music may have evolved in similar ways.

Perhaps a first use of written music would be possible. I use written in a vague sense meaning the first time a piece of music was performed in the same way more than once. But I suppose trying to find a first use of written language would be as difficult.




Anthropologists have yet to discover a single human culture without its own form of music. I would say that either group is likely to create music independently. Also if two people from these villages ever met chances are they would try and exchange words, sounds or even music. I think music comes from a more primitive emotion than trying to create abstract versions of the sounds we hear around us. It is communication on a purely emotional level.

Flutes have been found in Germany, which are made of mammoth bone and thought to be 43,000 years old. This would suggest that there were musical instruments around at the same time as Neanderthal man. Mind you they were painting DNA double helix diagrams on cave walls around the same time. ;-) But it’s generally believed that the earliest music was more than likely vocalizations rather than instrumental so the technology need to create music would not need to be traded between groups.




There are hundreds of academics across many disciplines who spend much of their time studying these questions and coming up with hypothesis’. They can’t all be that stupid (all of the time). In the “Descent of Man” Charles Darwin proposed that This suggests perhaps music evolved from pre-language communication. And that it continued to evolve alongside language even though it wasn’t strictly needed anymore.

Following up on the theory that music doesn’t have a particular function for humans. The cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker wrote The “cheesecake” hypothesis is famous at this stage but there are many theories that support it up to a point. Rarely do you read anything on the subject without a “Pinkerism” or two thrown in.

Reading similar theories from a couple of sources, I personally suspect that music evolved from pre-language, or vocal communication without words. Much in the same way as a mother coo’s to a baby in patterns of rhythm and intonation different to normal speech. Baby talk is generally thought to be (with some exceptions) universal. These vocalizations communicate emotional content without any syntax. We as humans are very attuned to detect emotions in language without any syntax at all. We can often detect emotional messages with other animals- we can all understand the emotions of a dog when they are barking. For example whether he’s threatening, playful, frightened etc.

So if we consider music to be the evolution of emotional communication, and syntactic or formal language to be an evolution of language stemming from a need to communicate more scientific or specific information. I would suggest that both music and language evolved from one source. With the need to communicate more abstract concepts formal language evolved. Since there are much fewer emotions to be communicated, music evolved in a way where the language of music became more complex while the messages we use it to convey have remained relatively few.

That’s my tupence worth inanyways. It doesn’t take into account the “grooming/gossip” theories of language. Or examine how music is both a social activity (ceremonies, celebrations etc.) and also a solitary activity.

Did music for develop for example to mark out terroritory or frighten away enemy tribes or predators? I haven’t read the book but “Songlines” (can’t remember the author) talks about Indigenous Australians using music to mark out trails throughout their land.


Anyway that’s enough of me going off on one. I think as a theory some ideas of how we went from Neanderthal man banging on bits of wood to Mozart and Bach banging on bits of wood be what happened. Though it’s probably a little of everything.

Some reading :
http://daniellevitin.com/publicpage/books/this-is-your-brain-on-music/

Ex-record producer and neuroscientist with a spooky Deepak Chopra-like presence on-line and on the “wellbeing and magic crystals” lecture circuit. Excellent books though, worth a read.

http://www.oliversacks.com/

Dr. Oliver Sachs’ “Musicophilia” is an excellent journey through the strange and somewhat disturbing experiences of the people he has worked with as a physician and neurologist. Examining music and the brain through people with disorders the book is both curious and compassionate.



http://mindmodeling.org/cogsci2012/papers/0248/paper0248.pdf
Rather technical paper on how humans can perceive emotion through musical sounds.

http://anthro.vancouver.wsu.edu/media/PDF/musicae.pdf
Paper on music and dance as territorial displays.

Like I said a bit of everything perhaps...

That was an incredible reply thank you

Torakx

So if we consider music to be the evolution of emotional communication, and syntactic or formal language to be an evolution of language stemming from a need to communicate more scientific or specific information. I would suggest that both music and language evolved from one source. With the need to communicate more abstract concepts formal language evolved. Since there are much fewer emotions to be communicated, music evolved in a way where the language of music became more complex while the messages we use it to convey have remained relatively few.

This. Taken from that massive informative post above
My thought process was to simplify the question/mechanics down to animals like dogs or wolves.
And would think that it is all to do with communication and survival/reproduction at the start.

Dogs have different types of barks and growls to indicate different emotions and needs.
One dog will use a certain tone or pitch from another, that gets it certain things as it learns about its environment.
I would see our music and singing as an extended form of this.
But it is better described in the quote above lol