martin o neil for ireland?

Pro. F

Nunu wrote: »

It's a real bugbear of mine how readily players and managers are written off in football. Happens all the time. MON has punched above his weight literally all through his career and has a record he can very proud of. Villa before Sunderland, he did a fine job there didnt he? Don't remember any relegation worries and usually were involved in fight for European places going into the final weeks.

I think he'd actually be a perfect fit for the Ireland job.

No, he was muck at Villa. He spent a fortune turning them into a collection of work horses who couldn't string 10 passes together if their lives depended on it. The fact that they kept away from relegation is not impressive when they had that big a budget.

Royal Legend

Lennonist wrote: »

Good post, we would be lucky to get O'Neill. He'd be a perfect fit for the job. Some of the posters here are living in cloud cuckoo land, or are just havin a cod.

I had a cod last friday, being the day it was and everything, although it could have been hake. I would be happy with O'Neill for Ireland, I doubt it would happen though. I am also one of the posters that think that O'Neill is well over rated and has in the past being linked to the big jobs, Utd, Liverpool, Spurs, which I don't think with his brand of football he is even remotely suited to. He would be a Charlton type manager for Ireland, Dunphy would be happy at the start and then find everything wrong with him after a few games.

Nunu

The same people who laugh at MON as yesterday's man then say with a straight face how they'd like to see Hughton as coach.
I like Hughton but in managerial terms he's just taking off O'Neill has been there and done it. Hughton would be delighted if he had a cv akin to O'Neills come his 60th birthday.

It's all about flavour of the month in the football world.
As I've already said before players/managers are written too quickly. So many examples of this.

Frankie Lee

Unless he can tempt John Robertson out of retirement O'Neill is finished as a manager. Another problem with him for the Ireland job is his wages too given how bankrupt the FAI is.

rossie1977

Pro. F wrote: »

No, he was muck at Villa. He spent a fortune turning them into a collection of work horses who couldn't string 10 passes together if their lives depended on it. The fact that they kept away from relegation is not impressive when they had that big a budget.

when he arrived at villa they had finished 16th the year before, under o'neill villa finished 11th, 6th, 6th and 6th

Nunu

Pro. F wrote: »

No, he was muck at Villa.

He really wasn't though? Three 6th place finishes in a row
. I remember Villa under MON as a decent outfit.

Lennonist

Royal Legend wrote: »

I had a cod last friday, being the day it was and everything, although it could have been hake. I would be happy with O'Neill for Ireland, I doubt it would happen though. I am also one of the posters that think that O'Neill is well over rated and has in the past being linked to the big jobs, Utd, Liverpool, Spurs, which I don't think with his brand of football he is even remotely suited to. He would be a Charlton type manager for Ireland, Dunphy would be happy at the start and then find everything wrong with him after a few games.

We are talking about the Ireland job here, why would you doubt it would happen? He' probably at the end of his club management career now, he might be interested in the international game because it's less intensive.

Lennonist

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Unless he can tempt John Robertson out of retirement O'Neill is finished as a manager. Another problem with him for the Ireland job is his wages too given how bankrupt the FAI is.

Doesn't seem to be a problem with paying Trap's wages.

Trappatoni >>>>> O Neill

Lennonist

rarnes1 wrote: »

Trappatoni >>>>> O Neill

When I was talking about some posters here that were on the wind up, it was posters like you that I was talking about. You are the most obvious one that's at it anyway.

The Guardian

would be a huge signing for NI if they could get him
funding would be a prob tho surely?
ever since wycombe i have followed his career with interest
given recent appoinments he will never secure a top prem role so now should flick over to international football

Lennonist

Lennonist wrote: »

When I was talking about some posters here that were on the wind up, it was posters like you that I was talking about. You are the most obvious one that's at it anyway.

I'm on a wind up because I don't rate Martin O Neill and think what we have is better?

:rolleyes:

BOHtox

Terrible poll!

Lennonist

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'm on a wind up because I don't rate Martin O Neill and think what we have is better?

:rolleyes:

Yep. Either that or you just haven't a clue.

Lennonist

Lennonist wrote: »

Yep. Either that or you just haven't a clue.

You obviously know way more than most of us eh?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Lennonist

rarnes1 wrote: »

You obviously know way more than most of us.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I'd say you're on the wind up myself, you couldn't be that clueless:pac:.

Pro. F

rossie1977 wrote: »

when he arrived at villa they had finished 16th the year before, under o'neill villa finished 11th, 6th, 6th and 6th

Yes O'Leary was beyond shìt, 16th was not a fair reflection of the squad's quality. O'Neal spent a lot of money and kept them in the upper mid table. But considering the money spent it was a poor return. I certainly wouldn't hold up his time at Villa as evidence in his favour.

Nunu wrote: »

The same people who laugh at MON as yesterday's man then say with a straight face how they'd like to see Hughton as coach.
I like Hughton but in managerial terms he's just taking off O'Neill has been there and done it. Hughton would be delighted if he had a cv akin to O'Neills come his 60th birthday.

It's all about flavour of the month in the football world.
As I've already said before players/managers are written too quickly. So many examples of this.

O'Neill has been rubbish for 10 years easily. It's not writing him off quickly in the slightest.

Just because Houghton is a new manager that's no reason to look past him. He has shown a great ability to organise his teams and get them playing well.

Amirani

Nunu wrote: »

The same people who laugh at MON as yesterday's man then say with a straight face how they'd like to see Hughton as coach.
I like Hughton but in managerial terms he's just taking off O'Neill has been there and done it. Hughton would be delighted if he had a cv akin to O'Neills come his 60th birthday.

And O'Neill would be delighted if he had a CV like Trap's come his 100th birthday. Claiming O'Neill has "been there and done it" is ridiculous.

COYVB

He'd do a very solid job internationally I think, but the football wouldn't get any better really. It'd be more direct, and focused on fast breaks, but it'd tactically be a lot worse. Still, I do think he'd get through the playoffs for most international tournaments

Fr Tod Umptious

COYVB wrote: »

He'd do a very solid job internationally I think, but the football wouldn't get any better really. It'd be more direct, and focused on fast breaks, but it'd tactically be a lot worse. Still, I do think he'd get through the plaudits for most international tournaments

How would he do a solid job internationally ?
He is a manger that relies on a big cheque book to buy players, he is the total opposite of what you need in an perturbation manager

SantryRed

No way

COYVB

Lennonist wrote: »

When I was talking about some posters here that were on the wind up, it was posters like you that I was talking about. You are the most obvious one that's at it anyway.

Weren't you going on about how well MON had done in the past and what he'd won etc? Trap's CV craps all over MONs, so if you're using the past to call MON a good manage, you have to do the same to concede that Trap is ten times the gaffer he'll ever be.

Ironically, fans of the last 2 clubs MON managed have almost exactly the same issues with him as Irish fans have with Trap. The truth is they're both relics, who the game has passed by, and their tactical archaicness means that neither of them are really anything close to being top class managers any more

COYVB

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

How would he do a solid job internationally ?
He is a manger that relies on a big cheque book to buy players, he is the total opposite of what you need in an perturbation manager

He gets the most out of average players, usually getting them to overperform as a unit. His biggest weakness is that he's absolutely awful in the transfer market. Yes, he needs that big chequebook, but he doesn't use it remotely well. Giving him a national pool of players to use would limit his major weakness (at least before we start talking about his stagnant tactics). He's a manager built for making average players play like decent ones a lot of the time - which is pretty much what Ireland need

COYVB

COYVB wrote: »

Weren't you going on about how well MON had done in the past and what he'd won etc? Trap's CV craps all over MONs, so if you're using the past to call MON a good manage, you have to do the same to concede that Trap is ten times the gaffer he'll ever be.

Ironically, fans of the last 2 clubs MON managed have almost exactly the same issues with him as Irish fans have with Trap. The truth is they're both relics, who the game has passed by, and their tactical archaicness means that neither of them are really anything close to being top class managers any more

Can you really go by CV anymore though? I mean does Juventus 1985 European Cup win have any bearing on the Irish national team in 2013? Or his Portuguese or Austrian league win for that matter? I think the recent issues he has had with players outweigh the impressive CV at this stage. His Euro record should have been assessed and a sacking should have been made immediately after Ireland exited the tournament.

He sends Ireland out to play the very same way as Audley Harrison goes out to box

Mr.Nice Guy

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you really go by CV anymore though? I mean does Juventus 1985 European Cup win have any bearing on the Irish national team in 2013? Or his Portuguese or Austrian league win for that matter? I think the recent issues he has had with players outweigh the impressive CV at this stage. His Euro record should have been assessed and a sacking should have been made immediately after Ireland exited the tournament.

He sends Ireland out to play the very same way as Audley Harrison goes out to box

A more recent achievement on his CV is two play-off finishes in two successive campaigns.

You mention his Euro record. Going into the game against Croatia at the Euros we had a run where we only conceded 3 goals in 14 games and kept 11 clean sheets. At the Euros we took on three top ten ranked sides and were well beaten. If this is to be a sackable offence then no manager with any sense should go anywhere near the Ireland job in future years.

Blatter

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

A more recent achievement on his CV is two play-off finishes in two successive campaigns.

You mention his Euro record. Going into the game against Croatia at the Euros we had a run where we only conceded 3 goals in 14 games and kept 11 clean sheets. At the Euros we took on three top ten ranked sides and were well beaten. If this is to be a sackable offence then no manager with any sense should go anywhere near the Ireland job in future years.

Losing the games in itself wasn't such an issue to me, it was how we lost them. Trap's performance at the Euros was pathetic. Plagued with mindless and nonsensical team selections, tactics, in game tactics and substitutions.

jive

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

A more recent achievement on his CV is two play-off finishes in two successive campaigns.

You mention his Euro record. Going into the game against Croatia at the Euros we had a run where we only conceded 3 goals in 14 games and kept 11 clean sheets. At the Euros we took on three top ten ranked sides and were well beaten. If this is to be a sackable offence then no manager with any sense should go anywhere near the Ireland job in future years.

It was the manner in which the team was beaten. As you said, 11 clean sheets and yet we conceded 9ish at the Euros in 3 games. Traps system works well against the mediocre teams in Europe but then gets us demolished against decent teams (Spain, Italy, Germany, Croatia, for example). Should we be beating those teams? No, not on paper; but we should be competitive. The only decent team we did well against was a French team in disarray who then went on to draw 0-0 to Urugay, lose 0-2 to Mexico and 1-2 to South Africa.

Trap is a good manager to have if you want to just scrape by average teams in qualification and get to the tournament proper even if his selections are questionable (putting it gently). When push comes to shove though against the better teams his system is found out with relative ease each time. I'm happy qualifying for finals but I'd honestly be happier not qualifying and playing semi-attractive football in comparison to the dreary shíte I watch every time I see Ireland play under Trap.

Do I think we should sack Trap? After this qualifying campaign, yeah. Do I think we should hire MON? Not really, there's plenty of potential other candidates for the Irish job. I completely disagree that sacking Trap would mean no manager with sense would go near us - have you seen his salary? Money talks and that rings true for football without question.

Fr Tod Umptious

COYVB wrote: »

He gets the most out of average players, usually getting them to overperform as a unit. His biggest weakness is that he's absolutely awful in the transfer market. Yes, he needs that big chequebook, but he doesn't use it remotely well. Giving him a national pool of players to use would limit his major weakness (at least before we start talking about his stagnant tactics). He's a manager built for making average players play like decent ones a lot of the time - which is pretty much what Ireland need

I don't see him getting the most out of average players in Sunderland ?

Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I don't see him getting the most out of average players in Sunderland ?

It's another Martin O Neill myth.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

A more recent achievement on his CV is two play-off finishes in two successive campaigns.

You mention his Euro record. Going into the game against Croatia at the Euros we had a run where we only conceded 3 goals in 14 games and kept 11 clean sheets. At the Euros we took on three top ten ranked sides and were well beaten. If this is to be a sackable offence then no manager with any sense should go anywhere near the Ireland job in future years.

Hold on now. There is valid cases for his sacking. His bizarre team/squad selections for starters and the fact that he hasnt bothered his arse learn the language in 5 years in the job. He offers nothing in terms of bringing us on from the basis he set for us. Same ould sh*t different day and we got lucky with the qualification draw for the Euros too. I dont think we met real class prior to the Euros to really establish whether Traps regime was an overall success to that point.

We met a Raymond Domenech managed France team in 09 who were totally disjointed and at war with each other and yes we beat them but playing a system totally proactive and adverse to what he put in place. Id like to say we've huffed and puffed against footballs minnows but the fact is we've more often been the little piggy in the straw house.

RikkFlair

Potential England manager at one stage wasn't he? Around the time when Sven was calling it a day if I remember right.

COYVB

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you really go by CV anymore though? I mean does Juventus 1985 European Cup win have any bearing on the Irish national team in 2013? Or his Portuguese or Austrian league win for that matter? I think the recent issues he has had with players outweigh the impressive CV at this stage.

That was my point. It's the EXACT same for O'Neill, only he accomplished less than Trappatoni

COYVB

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I don't see him getting the most out of average players in Sunderland ?

That's coz he was missing Robbo

Coillte_Bhoy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I don't see him getting the most out of average players in Sunderland ?

totally missing the point

celtictiger32

Royal Legend wrote: »

I voted blank, it made more sense

good man great input! :rolleyes:

COYVB

COYVB wrote: »

That was my point. It's the EXACT same for O'Neill, only he accomplished less than Trappatoni

O'Neill would at least understand the psyche of our players if he does have any advantage over Trappatoni. We'd at least play to our strengths. We are trying to play this bizarre system under Trap where we let the opposition get as deep into our half as possible before making a tackle and in that scenario we could have to make one in our own box. Absolute insanity. The counter argument from the pro Trap brigade is to say 'We havent the players', well we certainly havent the players that can break from deep in our own half and expose them at the other end. Route 1 football i could understand but letting the opposition have most of the ball and relying on last ditch tackles is bizarre. Psychologically it gives your opposition great belief if you are withstanding wave after wave of attack and they are creating chances from these attacks.

Lawrence1895

Get David Moyes, he is doing a brilliant job at Everton...and with him leaving Goodison, Liverpool might have a chance to go ahead of their neighbors

LuckyLloyd

Nunu wrote: »

Just how short are people's memories?
MON would be a fine appointment as next Ireland manager.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I don't see him getting the most out of average players in Sunderland ?

Some memories aren't short at all. Helix has brilliantly dissected his time at Villa on this forum many times. He did extremely well at Celtic and Leicester too. But his Sunderland tenure has not been at all good, to be frank. They had an initial upturn in fortunes, yes - but as time went on they were consistently lacking in drive or ideas. The results were poor despite three transfer windows during which money was made available and spent.

Thing is, I quite like the theory / myth of O'Neill. This idea that he gets players to perform above themselves and play tough, aggressive and hard nosed football. The problem is that it doesn't seem to hold true for long. His failure to have a viable plan B / to rotate or squad build well catches up. And it seems that players stop responding after a time.

I suppose you could argue that International football would play to whatever strengths he possesses. Squad rotation / player acquisition really isn't an issue. A two year competitive tournament cycle lasts 13 - 19 games. So maybe players wouldn't see enough of him for his methods to wear off.

Having thought about it a lot, I reckon he would compare favourably to what will be available in November. But for those who despise Trapp on the basis of turgid football / tactical inflexibility / stubborness of selection and approach - you really don't want him appointed. You want someone else, I promise you.

Fr Tod Umptious

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

totally missing the point

How ?

Back in the 1990s the myth started with him in Leicester and Wycombe, being able to have small clubs punch above their weight and it has stuck with him ever since.
But that has not been the case in Villa and Sunderland.
He left Villa cos Randy stopped opening the cheque book to him, and he has left Sunderland with them just above the drop zone.

The only manager in the recent past that has been able to keep a small club with a low budget punching above it's weight consistantly has been Alan Curbishley at Charlton

Ganymede Glow

I'd personally wait until after the qualifiers, no point sacking Trap now. I'd take him as Ireland manager because I doubt Mourinho, Ancelotti et al would really want it

:rolleyes:

Oranage2

What we need is Di canio, you'd have him giving people like harte and Doyle a slap if they cried over not getting picked.

NinjaK

we would be lucky to get someone as good as o'neil. Wait and see who we get after trap leaves, I would bet half of ye will be wishing we got him.

Thecon21

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The only manager in the recent past that has been able to keep a small club with a low budget punching above it's weight consistantly has been Alan Curbishley at Charlton

Surely you'd throw Roberto Martinez in that category? Somehow keeping Wigan just about afloat every year.

Would ya take him as a candidate?

RodgersLFC

Not the biggest fan of O'Neill but what we need is a manager with the courage and faith in the players to allow the players to express themselves. That clearly isnt Trap. Leaving Hoolahan out in the cold against Austria was a cowardly decision.

yohan the great

Thecon21 wrote: »

Surely you'd throw Roberto Martinez in that category? Somehow keeping Wigan just about afloat every year.

Would ya take him as a candidate?

Martinez is overrated massively. If he was that good a manager they wouldn't have to be fighting relegation every single season

RodgersLFC

Brian McDermott would be a good appointment I think.

aramush

Mick Mc is the obvious choice. I'd like to think he's learned a lot since he had the job last, we played some good football with him in qualification for 2002 and in that World Cup. Although I don't think he will leave Ipswich, they will be pushing for promotion next season imo.

srfc19

yohan the great wrote: »

Martinez is overrated massively. If he was that good a manager they wouldn't have to be fighting relegation every single season

Have you seen the budget/crowd level? The club is massively over reaching to stay in the top division. And a large factor in that is Martinez.

He is also the manager who kickstarted Swanseas recent success. Think he won manager of the year, the year he got them promoted from League One. Great manager.

aramush

srfc19 wrote: »

Have you seen the budget/crowd level? The club is massively over reaching to stay in the top division. And a large factor in that is Martinez.

He is also the manager who kickstarted Swanseas recent success. Think he won manager of the year, the year he got them promoted from League One. Great manager.

I wouldn't go as far as calling him a great manager, very few great managers out there. He's a good manager working with what he's got, I think key to Wigan's survival is the great relationship between him and the chairman, he's always stood by him even when the shíts almost hit the fan and thats helped that club a lot.

srfc19

aramush wrote: »

I wouldn't go as far as calling him a great manager, very few great managers out there. He's a good manager working with what he's got, I think key to Wigan's survival is the great relationship between him and the chairman, he's always stood by him even when the shíts almost hit the fan and thats helped that club a lot.

Fair enough, but we're comparing Martinez (A good manager hugely overachieving on tiny budgets) to MO'N (A poor manager hugely underachieving on large budgets).