Season 3 Episode 16 - Welcome to the Tombs (SPOILERS)

Syferus

I actually don't think it was a bad episode on its own but in the context of a season finale it fell very flat. I guess the Governor storyline's length is dictated by the comics but it really felt like it was time to off him and move on to greener pastures next season, no matter what the comic book did. I just don't know what else you can get out of the Governor character so having him return in the future seems a pretty fruitless exercise.

The worst dialogue was in the cold open but besides there wasn't too much to complain about.

Strange, strange season. Started so brilliantly but trialled off badly. It really felt like an anti-climatic resolution to the season and that leaves the pit falls the show fell into in the previous episodes very exposed by not having led to a decent pay-off.

scudzilla

This is turning into another LOST

Great start but progressively getting worse.

Loved Season 1

Season 2 was ok but too much time spent on the farm

Season 3 has been very mediocre

Sleepy

My biggest complaint about the episode was the length of time spent on Andrea. They really seem to have underestimated the hatred for her character among their viewers. Her death should have been quick or brutal. No-one was invested enough in the character for a dramatic and drawn out "tragic" death.

Grimebox

Sleepy wrote: »

My biggest complaint about the episode was the length of time spent on Andrea. They really seem to have underestimated the hatred for her character among their viewers. Her death should have been quick or brutal. No-one was invested enough in the character for a dramatic and drawn out "tragic" death.

I don't think they should tailor to fans as the show goes on. They should have conviction and belief in what they are writing. I agree that her death was bland at best but they shouldn't have ****ed up her character so badly in the first place to wind up in that situation.

Sleepy

True, but when you make a mistake, you correct it. Her character was awful and you simply can't create dramatic tension with a character no-one cares about. In a show like this, the writers have the luxury of being able to kill off their mistakes. Not doing it expediently is a waste of screen time.

wonderfullife

Sleepy wrote: »

True, but when you make a mistake, you correct repeat it. Her character was awful and you simply can't create dramatic tension with a character no-one cares about. In a show like this, the writers have the luxury of being able to kill off their mistakes. Not doing it expediently is a waste of screen time.

FYP.

The Andrea-centric episodes have been uniformly the weakest, worst of an otherwise good season. Yet despite this they choose to make the centre-piece Finale more or less Andrea-centric. Making mistakes as writers is fine but repeating the mistakes is a sin.

Despite everything going on in the episode, it was very much a pay-off episode for her character. This is a serious error of judgement by the writing team imo as the character just didn't have the likeability or substance to warrant a showpiece send-off.

Even the manner of her death summed up the character. Instead of talking the hind-legs off Milton, get the fcuking pliars in your hands and get out of the chair. Talk to him all you want once you're free!! What sort of dime-bar logic is that!!

MagicMarker

That was fúcking atrocious.

When it ended I was like "wuuuut?", had to check to make sure there wasn't one more episode left.

FFS.

mrbrown69

I LOL at Milton

"when. I. turn. find. a. sharp. object. and. stab. me. in. the. head!! fullstop" was he morphing into a Dalek or a flesh eating creature of the afterlife.....when he did turn he looked more a member of Spandau Ballet than owt else

awful awful actor....by far the worst I have ever seen anywhere

T-K-O

Solid episode but a disappointing finale over all.

Carl has becoming unbearable AGAIN. Someone needs to bite him.

Delighted the Governor survived the series (despite him leaving the trunk behind). Morrissey is brilliant in that role

Gbear

mrbrown69 wrote: »

I LOL at Milton

"when. I. turn. find. a. sharp. object. and. stab. me. in. the. head!! fullstop" was he morphing into a Dalek or a flesh eating creature of the afterlife.....when he did turn he looked more a member of Spandau Ballet than owt else

awful awful actor....by far the worst I have ever seen anywhere

What does someone who's been stabbed in the stomach and is bleeding to death sound like?

T-K-O

That sounds something like ..............WOFF WOFF

mrbrown69

Gbear wrote: »

What does someone who's been stabbed in the stomach and is bleeding to death sound like?

They can sound any way you want in. the. movies.

A Neurotic

I've watched this twice now. I've decided that I really, really like it. I get that it's flawed, and I get the disappointment, but for me, it hit just the right note.

It flipped all of our expectations on their heads, and I think that's to be admired. We got a taste of prison vs Woodbury physical battle, but ultimately what we really saw was the natural conclusion of the battle of Rick's ideology versus the Governor's: the Governor completely falling apart and Rick conclusively stepping up to the plate, once more a hero. The Gov wanted to rule, through lies and fear, with no human connection. Rick and co. have realised that there's no point living without human connection. Gov massacring his people and Rick taking in the Woodbury survivors is the perfect representation of this. I think this ideological mirroring cuts right to the core of The Walking Dead, in a way that the prison massacre we were all expecting couldn't.

Also, I absolutely love the opening montage of the prison group packing up, with this incredible music in the background tying together small strands of dialogue, and the closing scene of the newcomers piling in to the prison with walkers in the sun outside the fence. Love love love the direction in this episode.

MagicMarker

A Neurotic wrote: »

I've watched this twice now. I've decided that I really, really like it. I get that it's flawed, and I get the disappointment, but for me, it hit just the right note.

It flipped all of our expectations on their heads, and I think that's to be admired. We got a taste of prison vs Woodbury physical battle, but ultimately what we really saw was the natural conclusion of the battle of Rick's ideology versus the Governor's: the Governor completely falling apart and Rick conclusively stepping up to the plate, once more a hero. The Gov wanted to rule, through lies and fear, with no human connection. Rick and co. have realised that there's no point living without human connection. Gov massacring his people and Rick taking in the Woodbury survivors is the perfect representation of this. I think this ideological mirroring cuts right to the core of The Walking Dead, in a way that the prison massacre we were all expecting couldn't.

Also, I absolutely love the opening montage of the prison group packing up, with this incredible music in the background tying together small strands of dialogue, and the closing scene of the newcomers piling in to the prison with walkers in the sun outside the fence. Love love love the direction in this episode.

I see.

Actually, no, it was awful. Really truly awful.

Grimebox

I too liked it.

I can still acknowledge that it was absolutely woeful though.

Syferus

In simple terms the objective failures of the finale are unforgivable - we didn't get any real conclusion to the Governor storyline nor did it set the stakes for season four. I just can't see how anyone can defend that.

FlyingIrishMan

I still think if that was a double episode, and they concluded the Governor story in the second half it would have been an amazing episode.
The finale we saw was a good episode, there just wasn't enough time to finish the story, if they had finished the story it would have been a much better episode.
Compared to season 2's finale this one was awful.

Grimebox

Am I only the person that doesn't want a cliffhanger on a finale?

Nervous Wreck

Grimebox wrote: »

Am I only the person that doesn't want a cliffhanger on a finale?

I'd prefer to have a conclusion, yeah.... We didn't get either though...

Syferus

Grimebox wrote: »

Am I only the person that doesn't want a cliffhanger on a finale?

Setting the table for a new season hardly means the ending needs to be a cliffhanger.

MadYaker

What a sh!te finale. The only consolation is that Andrea has finally kicked the bucket.

dr gonzo

Only half way through the episode but what a pile of ****e. Is anyone else just completely pissed off with

people are always too intimidated to try and kill the governer. How fcuking idiotic was that moment where the governer lays waster to a bunch of innocent people and the guy with the AK still hesitated enough to be shot. Utterly moronic.

Im sure its not going to get much better in the last 20 minutes or so either...

T-K-O

You stopped half way thought to complain

If that's the case I wouldn't bother with the remaining 20

Grimebox

dr gonzo wrote: »

Only half way through the episode but what a pile of ****e. Is anyone else just completely pissed off with

people are always too intimidated to try and kill the governer. How fcuking idiotic was that moment where the governer lays waster to a bunch of innocent people and the guy with the AK still hesitated enough to be shot. Utterly moronic.

Im sure its not going to get much better in the last 20 minutes or so either...

I eagerly anticipate your next post :pac:

dr gonzo

T-K-O wrote: »

You stopped half way thought to complain

If that's the case I wouldn't bother with the remaining 20

More then that. I was furiously compelled to stop and complain!

What. a. pile. of. ****. One of the most wasted tv build-ups I've seen in a long long time. The culmination of half the series bought us exactly one thing,

Andrea being killed off. That is literally all that half a season worked towards. Also, I dont know about the comics, but having the governer just disappear into the wind is such a ridiculous waste of that character. If ever there was a character that was meant to go out in a blaze of bloody, violent glory, much to the satisfaction of every viewer, it is him! Grr

I was watching this season thinking it was the best by a mile. Even the characters got better. But I should have known that they would fcuk it up.

SHAM! My time isnt worth that much to begin with but I want at least half a season's worth of it back!


Also, they're turning Carl into an emo little ****. Just when we get rid of his horrific mother, they decide to give him the family traits. Goddamn it.

Grimebox

I think Carl is turning into a stone-cold calculating killer rather than an emo

NufcNavan

No, tbh I wouldn't mind if they just fed Carl to the walkers.

T-K-O

dr gonzo wrote: »

More then that. I was furiously compelled to stop and complain!

What. a. pile. of. ****. One of the most wasted tv build-ups I've seen in a long long time. The culmination of half the series bought us exactly one thing,

Andrea being killed off. That is literally all that half a season worked towards. Also, I dont know about the comics, but having the governer just disappear into the wind is such a ridiculous waste of that character. If ever there was a character that was meant to go out in a blaze of bloody, violent glory, much to the satisfaction of every viewer, it is him! Grr

I was watching this season thinking it was the best by a mile. Even the characters got better. But I should have known that they would fcuk it up.

SHAM! My time isnt worth that much to begin with but I want at least half a season's worth of it back!


Also, they're turning Carl into an emo little ****. Just when we get rid of his horrific mother, they decide to give him the family traits. Goddamn it.

In terms of a finale it was disappointing but I was happy to see the Governor survive. We have lost far too many good characters and can't afford to loose him.

If I remember correctly, last season we got a glimpse of the prison. That got me thinking, this year nothing to think about.

I can't stand Carl. He was OK in a few episodes but I look forward to his demise. I think he was miscast they should have gone with slightly older kid

dr gonzo

Grimebox wrote: »

I think Carl is turning into a stone-cold calculating killer rather than an emo

Maybe so. To be fair, a stone cold killer is exactly what that group needs. I have to agree with him when he talks about

all the times that having the balls to pull the trigger would have saved lives and grief

, hes absolutely spot on there. However I still dont like him. Im starting to find him an immensely annoying character. Then again I'm starting to realise that I find many of the character immensely annoying. Once the kill off Glenn we'll definitely be getting somewhere though!

FlyingIrishMan

It seems any character who gets a bit of interesting development people instantly find annoying.

Turtyturd

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

It seems any character who gets a bit of interesting development people instantly find annoying.

I am glad T-Dog went out before he was ruined.

T-K-O

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

It seems any character who gets a bit of interesting development people instantly find annoying.

like who?

Turtyturd

T-K-O wrote: »

like who?

Carl.

T-K-O

Turtyturd wrote: »

Carl.

Lets just say we have different onions on interesting development.

Shane was interesting. Dead
Merle was interesting. Dead

:mad:

FlyingIrishMan

Shane had to die to progress the story, Merle not so much but I still think his death was justified story wise.
My main points are Rick and Carl, when Rick started halucinating after Lori's death everyone hated him, Carl is dead inside now and people hate him too.
I can understand why people disliked him in season 2, but he is a good character in season 3 and its interesting to see a kid growing up in this world and it changing him so drastically.

dr gonzo

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

It seems any character who gets a bit of interesting development people instantly find annoying.

I dont think thats necessarily true. Daryl, Carol and Herschel have all had great arcs from atlanta or the farm to the prison. They've grown tougher or more emotionally invested where necessary. Equally the governer has had a good amount of development over the course of this season and hes also a fantastic character.

On a lesser note I think the writers have done a good job with Merle and Michonne (who is getting better by the ep, I think anyway).

Ultimately I would love to see them do more with Herschel's younger daughter (Beth?). I like her a lot and I think they could make better use of her.

I also really like Tyreese and his sister. They have made a nice addition to the series.

As much as it was a lame ending, the shot in the arm of fresh blood in the prison (figuratively speaking) but be of huge benefit to the series.

I suppose my point is, while I, and others, complain about several of the characters, I actually think that the ones that remain, as well as some of the newer additions are excellent, or turning out to be.

Turtyturd

T-K-O wrote: »

Lets just say we have different onions on interesting development.

Shane was interesting. Dead
Merle was interesting. Dead

:mad:

But Carl has gone from being the kid who nobody ever knew where he was, to the character who has been most negatively affected by the world he lives in.

A Neurotic

I think Carl's a great character. He's like a social experiment, someone growing up in the end of the world. An indicator of future how a future society might view the world.

FlyingIrishMan

dr gonzo wrote: »

I dont think thats necessarily true. Daryl, Carol and Herschel have all had great arcs from atlanta or the farm to the prison. They've grown tougher or more emotionally invested where necessary. Equally the governer has had a good amount of development over the course of this season and hes also a fantastic character.

On a lesser note I think the writers have done a good job with Merle and Michonne (who is getting better by the ep, I think anyway).

Ultimately I would love to see them do more with Herschel's younger daughter (Beth?). I like her a lot and I think they could make better use of her.

I also really like Tyreese and his sister. They have made a nice addition to the series.

As much as it was a lame ending, the shot in the arm of fresh blood in the prison (figuratively speaking) but be of huge benefit to the series.

I suppose my point is, while I, and others, complain about several of the characters, I actually think that the ones that remain, as well as some of the newer additions are excellent, or turning out to be.

Okay. I'm going to rephrase what I said.
Interesting and Controversial development. Characters with straightforward development such as Carol and Herschel are not as interesting to me. I like them both in the show, but I wouldn't want to see episodes where they get all the screen time.

I think from the episode Clear onwards, thats when Michonne started becoming a good character. Before that she was just an annoying mute who could have said a few words to defuse a lot of situations but did't.

Tyreese and his sister again, good characters, and I look forward to what they do in the future, but everything they've done up until now has been boring.

Beth is a character I think they should develop more as well, some people find her annoying just because she sits in the background and sings sometimes. For anyone who has played Telltale's TWD game I'd like if Beth turned into a Molly style character.

I like your spoiler point though, I never thought of that. When they do decide to do a real prison vs governor battle it'll make it a lot better with a load of NPC's to kill.

T-K-O

Turtyturd wrote: »

But Carl has gone from being the kid who nobody ever knew where he was, to the character who has been most negatively affected by the world he lives in.

Yet he continues to bore. On paper he should be an excellent character but I just don't believe it. A lot of that is down to the character being miscast IMO

Grimebox

Turtyturd wrote: »

I am glad T-Dog went out before he was ruined.

T-Dog was complete wallpaper of a character

dr gonzo

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

Okay. I'm going to rephrase what I said.
Interesting and Controversial development. Characters with straightforward development such as Carol and Herschel are not as interesting to me. I like them both in the show, but I wouldn't want to see episodes where they get all the screen time.

I think from the episode Clear onwards, thats when Michonne started becoming a good character. Before that she was just an annoying mute who could have said a few words to defuse a lot of situations but did't.

Tyreese and his sister again, good characters, and I look forward to what they do in the future, but everything they've done up until now has been boring.

Beth is a character I think they should develop more as well, some people find her annoying just because she sits in the background and sings sometimes. For anyone who has played Telltale's TWD game I'd like if Beth turned into a Molly style character.

I like your spoiler point though, I never thought of that. When they do decide to do a real prison vs governor battle it'll make it a lot better with a load of NPC's to kill.

Have to say, some fair points there. I see what you mean about expected vs. controversial development and I probably have to rethink my feelings on some of the characters now actually. You say that the hallucinations had people hating Rick, I didnt feel that at all. I wasnt a huge fan of the hallucinations as an idea but I have always liked Rick. On a side note I would have loved if the brought the guy from the first episode back into the story after bumping into him recently. Shame they only got an episode out of him.

Syferus

Amazed people are even wasting pixels complaining about Carl. One of the few successes throughout the whole season was his arc. Even in the finale his killing of the Governor's errand boy offered more long-term worth than almost any other scene in the episode.

Over-arching things like knowing when to end storylines (hint: the Governor should not be alive, his character has very clearly reached its end point development-wise) and avoid obvious filler material (which Andrea turned out to be a completely fruitless dispenser of this season) are what people should be focusing on.

T-K-O

I'll stick with Carl but thanks for that

krudler

NufcNavan wrote: »

No, tbh I wouldn't mind if they just fed Carl to the walkers.

Noooo, he's the one character I hope they do justice from the comics, and they've started to. they made a balls of Andrea, and Michonne at first but shes a better character now.

krudler

Syferus wrote: »

Amazed people are even wasting pixels complaining about Carl. One of the few successes throughout the whole season was his arc. Even in the finale his killing of the Governor's errand boy offered more long-term worth than almost any other scene in the episode.

Over-arching things like knowing when to end storylines (hint: the Governor should not be alive, his character has very clearly reached its end point development-wise) and avoid obvious filler material (which Andrea turned out to be a completely fruitless dispenser of this season) are what people should be focusing on.

That, go back and watch an episode of season 1 with him in it, and see where his character is now, he's gone from being a kid who ket doing stupid stuff and getting lost to a cold hearted murderer who sees his father as weak for taking in the Woodbury stragglers. He's one of the few characters with a proper arc that slowly moving along, most of the other characters haven't changed a bit.

Wanderer2010

I loved the second last episode, it was full of character development and shocks, what with the death of Meryl and Michonne proving she has some depth but the finale was quite disappointing given the huge build up of the war between Woodbury and the Prison, and in the end it was a big anti-climax- how the hell could that many people with massive artillery be overpowered by 2 people with machine guns, especially when the bazooka took out the watch towers, why the hell didnt they use that on the ledge that Glenn and Maggie were on?? Plus the ending with them going back to the prison with all the residents it just keeps that place as the venue when they really should have drawn a line under it.

I didnt mind Andreas death it was written quite well, yes she could have spent more time freeing herself than staring at her would be killer but her death was played well. How come nobody seems to see how pointless a character Carol is, what exacrly does she do for the group except pout about her ex husband and look about 50 every week? She didnt even hook up with Daryl in the end after all of season 2 flirting with each other, now they barely even talk what a waste :mad: This finale really needed to be an all out war with a few shock deaths and a finish to the Governor/Woodbury story which has now come to a natural end. I fail to see where the threat will come from or what direction Season 4 will take, unless the walkers become a huge new threat just to paper over the plot hole cracks and the Governor tails the prison with revenge in mind, really weak if that happens. Season 4 has huge expectations on it. Maybe a new crew of writers will save the day.

Diabhal Beag

Just after watching this one again. I came to the realization that the episode was such a bad cliffhanger that I can wait till October or whenever it comes back. That's fairly damning because I couldn't wait for season 3 and I couldn't wait for this episode after ep 15.

krudler

Confirmation that Merle IS returning: https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/72644_449926051755482_1070674922_n.jpg

PhiloCypher

FlyingIrishMan wrote: »

Tyreese and his sister again, good characters, and I look forward to what they do in the future, but everything they've done up until now has been boring.

Given this shows reputation for tokenism where minorities are concerned(hispanic family, Jaqui, T-Dawg, Oscar) they should never have been introduced without a clear plan for them beyond telling both groups they would pitch in . If this is not remedied early next season I'm done with this show.