Mathematics/Theoretical Physics difference to Leaving Cert

Undeadfred

Hi I'm currently in 6th year and I'm looking to do Theoretical Physics next year. I've seen and heard a few people say that University Maths its completely different to Leaving Cert maths and that LC maths is barely even maths!
How true is this?
I've a huge interest in Maths and i do really well in it in school. I got 97% in my maths mock paper and at Christmas i got 100% as well. I get As in Applied Maths and Physics as well.
I'm just worried that next year I'll go in to college thinking I'll be fine since i did well in Maths in school but end up having trouble with the course because of its difficulty. I heard loads of people drop out of TP. It's a bit intimidating.

highfive

hi,

i did tp for first year and then changed to straight maths for the rest. First year is a good bit of work but you'll pass if you do some study. There will always be the nerds and genius's who will get firsts all the way, you may or may not be one of them!

The computers part was fun in first year! As far as I know now there are two terms with an exam at the end of each term. This is much better as when I did it there was only one 3 hour exam testing you on all you did for the whole year! In second year College maths is more philosophical that the leaving, less technical stuff for you to number crunch. This is a shame as it takes the fun out of it if you ask me!

If I could do it again I would not have stressed over the small stuff and just tried to understand the big theorems! Like the leaving, exam papers are your friend! I quit tp because the physics dept were too messy and the practicals were too plain annoying! Also, I had just done tp because I got the points in the leaving, maths was my second choice. tp is alot more hours than maths. I hope that sheds some light on it. It's 7 years since I was there so I'd say there has been some turnover of staff, but all the members of staff and profs were really sound. If you ask questions at the end of lectures they will do their best to answer them. Best thing is to make friends with some people who are on the same level as you so you can ask each other stuff.

For the leaving it's hard work that pays off. I wish I could say the same for college but I don't really know how I got thru it because I sat thru many many lectures that I didn't have a clue what was going on. I was pretty stressed trying to pay my way with a job and trying to socialise etc. so it didn't help when I was trying to do the problem sets. To be honest, I don't really want to look back at my notes now cause I get really stressed!! That's all I can say. It's my personal experience. I went on to do a masters in Pure Maths in the University of Manchester and some day I'll do a phd but I just want to have an income and a life now so it's on the backburner. Also think about what kind of work you want to do after college. You'll get a finance job easy after doing a maths degree. Same goes with engineering. Only problem with these is that you'll be expected to put in some serious hours. But then again if you're getting A's in all those subjects you must be able to put the work in.

Hope this helps,
T

EuropeanSon

You won't know until you do it, really. Everyone who does it has gotten straight As in Maths, so that isn't really much of an indicator, but most people who do the work are fine.

TP is a lot of work (much more so than maths) because they have labs, and more applied subjects which have longer homework sets in general than the pure Maths ones. If you are willing to do the work, you should be fine, though.

I'm in 3rd year Maths right now, feel free to PM if you've got any specific questions.

highfive

Just found this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056367289

v handy!

Undeadfred

The amount of people who drop out of TP is ridiculous. If i get the course i think I'll just tell myself to stick with it and see it out until the end if i get tempted to drop to Maths. It'll be class to be able to call myself a Theoretical Physicist by the end of it

Maybe_Memories

Undeadfred wrote: »

The amount of people who drop out of TP is ridiculous. If i get the course i think I'll just tell myself to stick with it and see it out until the end if i get tempted to drop to Maths. It'll be class to be able to call myself a Theoretical Physicist by the end of it

It sounds like you think maths is easier than TP. It's not.

Also having a degree in TP does not make you a theoretical physicist; it just makes you someone with a degree in TP. :P

Undeadfred

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

It sounds like you think maths is easier than TP. It's not.

Also having a degree in TP does not make you a theoretical physicist; it just makes you someone with a degree in TP. :P

I'd say its no easier but Its less work according to EuropeanSon

True.

EuropeanSon

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

It sounds like you think maths is easier than TP. It's not.

Also having a degree in TP does not make you a theoretical physicist; it just makes you someone with a degree in TP. :P

It is, in a way, just because it's less work. You've got much trickier concepts to grasp in Maths though, I think, so there's a tradeoff there. That's what I'm good at and like doing, so Maths is much easier for me.

I don't think I could've managed the work in TP, personally.

Undeadfred

EuropeanSon wrote: »

It is, in a way, just because it's less work. You've got much trickier concepts to grasp in Maths though, I think, so there's a tradeoff there. That's what I'm good at and like doing, so Maths is much easier for me.

I don't think I could've managed the work in TP, personally.

How much work is there in comparison to the Leaving Cert?

EuropeanSon

Undeadfred wrote: »

How much work is there in comparison to the Leaving Cert?

Depends how good at it you are (and that will have a quite low correlation with how good at LC you are), and which subjects you do. Anything between lots and not much. If you're average and not a workaholic, a fair bit will do you (that is, not killing yourself, but still feeling a bit stretched sometimes. For exams it's cram cram cram). If you are bad at it and want to get by, a lot of work is needed, and you still probably won't get by. If you're enthusiastic and average or great, well, you won't even feel like it's work, but it'll be a lot. If you're very good, but disinterested, you can get by with not very much at all, until exam time, when again it's cram cram cram.

In TP this isn't the case, as far as I can see. The workload is heavy for everyone.

Sorry for being so vague, but it's really down to the individual. Also, it's hard to tell sometimes how much work others do.

Evan93

Second Year TP here. There's a few other lads in the class lurking as well so I'd say they'll have a contribution. Anyway, if you like maths and physics and problem solving in general you'll enjoy TP I'd imagine. In terms of hours and work and stuff yeah I guess there is a bit more than other courses but actually enjoying the work combats this off.

College maths and leaving cert maths are different in approach I think but as I said if you enjoy challenging problems then TP/maths is the way to go. Be prepared to sit through lectures and not understand everything-that's one of the big differences I think. Leaving Cert maths doesn't have the steep learning curve that some concepts in college maths have. Nevertheless, once a bit of time is spent on it it's pretty satisfying.

Regarding the drop out rate from TP, I'm not actually sure how bad it is. I do know that on average about 15-20 graduate most years, where in 1st year there are about 40 people. However, people move to maths or physics come 3rd year. Again, I have no figures to back this up but I do know there is a considerable interest in switching to maths in 3rd year as people do not enjoy the physics which is understandable as lab reports coupled with the modules serve as quite a bit of work sometimes.

There's quite a few resources online if you'd like to research further OP:

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~mathsoc/wiki/Main_Page -the mathsoc (maths society) has quite a few good summaries of what modules are taken in most of the years. You could look through some of them and see if it's your kind of thing.

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/ - has quite a bit of info on the modules again.

http://www.coursehub.ie/ - decent reviews by many TP's and maths students giving many different opinions which is nice.

Anyway, I really enjoy TP. The one thing I wish I knew before doing TP is how to combat off the hideous amount of physics puns that now plague my mind.

ride-the-spiral

Evan93 wrote: »

Anyway, I really enjoy TP. The one thing I wish I knew before doing TP is how to combat off the hideous amount of physics puns that now plague my mind.

Embrace the puns.

Undeadfred

EuropeanSon wrote: »

Depends how good at it you are (and that will have a quite low correlation with how good at LC you are), and which subjects you do. Anything between lots and not much. If you're average and not a workaholic, a fair bit will do you (that is, not killing yourself, but still feeling a bit stretched sometimes. For exams it's cram cram cram). If you are bad at it and want to get by, a lot of work is needed, and you still probably won't get by. If you're enthusiastic and average or great, well, you won't even feel like it's work, but it'll be a lot. If you're very good, but disinterested, you can get by with not very much at all, until exam time, when again it's cram cram cram.

In TP this isn't the case, as far as I can see. The workload is heavy for everyone.

Sorry for being so vague, but it's really down to the individual. Also, it's hard to tell sometimes how much work others do.

After reading the first paragraph i felt reassured. Then i read the next bit...

I'd probably be the enthusiastic but average student. I'm incredibly eager to learn more maths. I find the LC Higher Maths course unsatisfying and i hunger for more.

I can be hard working when i need to be but in general I'm quite lazy and that's why I dont like the amount of work TP seems to hold in store. The subject fascinates me though which is why i want to do it.

How bad exactly are the lab reports? Every TP student I talk to always say they're the worst

Also did you start off in TP and switch to Maths? If so, why?

EuropeanSon

Undeadfred wrote: »

After reading the first paragraph i felt reassured. Then i read the next bit...

I'd probably be the enthusiastic but average student. I'm incredibly eager to learn more maths. I find the LC Higher Maths course unsatisfying and i hunger for more.

I can be hard working when i need to be but in general I'm quite lazy and that's why I dont like the amount of work TP seems to hold in store. The subject fascinates me though which is why i want to do it.

How bad exactly are the lab reports? Every TP student I talk to always say they're the worst

Also did you start off in TP and switch to Maths? If so, why?

Labs are just more stuff to do on top of homeworks. I don't think they're exactly "difficult", just a pain in the arse.

I didn't start in TP, but I live with two TPs and know a lot of them.

Also, if you end up not liking TP, it's easy to switch to Maths or Science (Physics), whereas you cannot go the other way.

Tears in Rain

Just to add that it's not always true that people tend to drop out of TP or switch to Maths. My year (3rd year TP) has something of the order of 40 students, and I think only two or three have switched to Maths, and none to physics. Though I understand our year is something of a statistical anomaly.

As regards lab reports, they're pretty arduous, but the amount of time required for them is commensurate with the amount they're worth. For instance, the lab module in 3rd year is worth a whopping 7.5 credits, which is solely assessed on the basis of 3 lab reports. That's 2.5 credits for each lab report. Now a year long module in Maths is worth 10 credits, and coursework is probably worth 15% of that. So that's 1.5 credits for the entire coursework for the year. That coursework is probably spread over 16 or so assignments. Considering that if you can complete an assignment in two hours you're doing very well, it starts to sound not quite so crazy when you hear people spending 20 hours+ on a lab report. Just as long as you don't do it in a single weekend!

tl;dr: Spend a lot of time on your lab reports. It's REALLY worth it.

ride-the-spiral

Undeadfred wrote: »

After reading the first paragraph i felt reassured. Then i read the next bit...

I'd probably be the enthusiastic but average student. I'm incredibly eager to learn more maths. I find the LC Higher Maths course unsatisfying and i hunger for more.

I can be hard working when i need to be but in general I'm quite lazy and that's why I dont like the amount of work TP seems to hold in store. The subject fascinates me though which is why i want to do it.

How bad exactly are the lab reports? Every TP student I talk to always say they're the worst

Also did you start off in TP and switch to Maths? If so, why?

While they're not exactly the most fun thing in the world, they're not so bad that it'd make me want to switch. First year reports are terrible but they're all quite short, you can get it done in an hour or two and be done with it for the week. You also tend to get quite high marks in them so they improve your grade.

Second year labs are longer but pretty much everyone everyone found them more satisfying to do, because the content is interesting (for the most part.) I seriously wouldn't let labs worry you too much, as I believe TP's stop doing experimental labs half way through 3rd year anyway.

Undeadfred

Yeah I'm kinda thinking now that the Lab Reports might balance out all the maths work so you dont get sick and tired of it.

Did anyone here switch to Maths from Theoretical Physics?

Niiall

I'm in 6th year atm too, and planning on doing TP in Trinity next year also... Does anybody know how much of a disadvantage it will be to have not done applied maths for LC? Wasn't an option for my year, and apparently a huge amount of the tp course is based around applied maths?

Tears in Rain

Niiall wrote: »

I'm in 6th year atm too, and planning on doing TP in Trinity next year also... Does anybody know how much of a disadvantage it will be to have not done applied maths for LC? Wasn't an option for my year, and apparently a huge amount of the tp course is based around applied maths?

You'll be at a slight disadvantage at the start of the year for one of the courses (Classical Mechanics) which is similar in flavour to the Applied Maths course.

Don't let this turn you off however. Some points should be made:

1. This is just one of (roughly) 6 modules.

2. The disadvantage is slight: nothing is assumed, though of course you'll find it easier to follow the class if you've already done part of it.

3. TP progresses very quickly and by the end of the year you'll have left most of the Leaving Cert behind in the dirt. By the start of second year you'll be laughing at anything you found difficult in higher level Maths or Physics.

To put it another way, if you've committed yourself to learning a new language, would you feel at a disadvantage compared to the people who have already learnt how to say "hello", "goodbye", "how do you do?" etc? You might feel a bit behind for the first week, but I think you can agree in the long run it makes no difference.

Evan93

Niiall wrote: »

I'm in 6th year atm too, and planning on doing TP in Trinity next year also... Does anybody know how much of a disadvantage it will be to have not done applied maths for LC? Wasn't an option for my year, and apparently a huge amount of the tp course is based around applied maths?

I'm in second year TP and didn't do applied maths for the leaving cert. There's basically 2 modules (Mechanics 1 and Mechanics 2) where the material is similar to that of applied maths. Doing applied maths would be recommended but it is definitely not essential. I did find it quite difficult (Mechanics modules) for a while but I was only getting used to what was going on.

So I'll say it's useful but definitely not essential and everything is thought from scratch (to an extent anyway). I don't regret not doing applied maths because it was fun to learn all the stuff so if you put in a bit of work it's pretty rewarding. The homeworks, however, can be quite hard at times but i wouldn't let that deter you.

Also, people who had done applied maths didn't necessarily find the mechanics modules any easier than those who didn't do it so come 2nd semester almost everybody is in the same boat regardless because there's a lot of new material

EuropeanSon

Tears in Rain wrote: »

You'll be at a slight disadvantage at the start of the year for one of the courses (Classical Mechanics) which is similar in flavour to the Applied Maths course.

Don't let this turn you off however. Some points should be made:

1. This is just one of (roughly) 6 modules.

2. The disadvantage is slight: nothing is assumed, though of course you'll find it easier to follow the class if you've already done part of it.

3. TP progresses very quickly and by the end of the year you'll have left most of the Leaving Cert behind in the dirt. By the start of second year you'll be laughing at anything you found difficult in higher level Maths or Physics.

To put it another way, if you've committed yourself to learning a new language, would you feel at a disadvantage compared to the people who have already learnt how to say "hello", "goodbye", "how do you do?" etc? You might feel a bit behind for the first week, but I think you can agree in the long run it makes no difference.

This. Nothing you did or didn't do at leaving cert couldn't be picked up in a few hours.

optimus125

The thing I can't seem to get my head around is how difficult this course muse be. As YOU are all well aware, it's said to be one of (if not the most) difficult courses in Trinity, with a high drop-out rate, and a very low number of firsts etc. etc... The thing that gets me though, is that all the students who find it difficult, are all top class students, who clearly excelled in their LC - and not only in Maths and Physics!

What I'm trying to compare this to is, for example, the way that if you speak to an ordinary level leaving cert maths student, they will tell you all about just how difficult it is! But with TP, it is only top of the range students who have the difficulties with it!

To sum up, it must be some pretty serious sh**!

Evan93

optimus125 wrote: »

The thing I can't seem to get my head around is how difficult this course muse be. As YOU are all well aware, it's said to be one of (if not the most) difficult courses in Trinity, with a high drop-out rate, and a very low number of firsts etc. etc... The thing that gets me though, is that all the students who find it difficult, are all top class students, who clearly excelled in their LC - and not only in Maths and Physics!

What I'm trying to compare this to is, for example, the way that if you speak to an ordinary level leaving cert maths student, they will tell you all about just how difficult it is! But with TP, it is only top of the range students who have the difficulties with it!

To sum up, it must be some pretty serious sh**!

I'd say challenging as opposed to difficult. I dunno if the"high drop-out rate and lower firsts" is actually true. Last year, 20 TP's got firsts in first year. That's roughly half the class. Also, there's been a very low drop out rate, perhaps 0-5 only dropping out. So it's not that bad. All students have difficulty with the course, like any other course. It's not the hardest thing in the world and I wouldn't be too worried about it if you like maths/physics!