Ireland, where repaying your mortgage is optional

StillWaters

Anynama141 wrote: »

Um....source? You are probably right - but I wonder how big the majority is?.

The majority is quite substantial.
Mortgage drawdown data - http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1025420.shtml

Anynama141

StillWaters wrote: »

The majority is quite substantial.
Mortgage drawdown data - http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1025420.shtml

What is the relevant data here SW? I'm not sure what new mortgage drawdowns have to do with what percentage of borrowers from the last 10 years are in default.

Solair

This stuff is really making me think it might be time to emigrate. I'm not really seeing any rapid return to any sense of stability in Ireland.

Between the Irish Government's 'deer caught in headlights' thing and the EU's complete inability to do anything remotely sensible, Canada and lots of other places are looking like far more attractive alternatives.

I don't really feel I can trust the 'system' enough to put down roots here anymore.

This impending mortgage time bomb is just another example of it.:mad:

Ray Palmer

Solair wrote: »

This stuff is really making me think it might be time to emigrate. I'm not really seeing any rapid return to any sense of stability in Ireland.

Between the Irish Government's 'deer caught in headlights' thing and the EU's complete inability to do anything remotely sensible, Canada and lots of other places are looking like far more attractive alternatives.

I don't really feel I can trust the 'system' enough to put down roots here anymore.

This impending mortgage time bomb is just another example of it.:mad:

Please do. Once you are somewhere else maybe you will realise we are not massively unique. Every country and government has its issues.

You will find nobody likes a moaner but every country has them.

Solair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Please do. Once you are somewhere else maybe you will realise we are not massively unique. Every country and government has its issues.

You will find nobody likes a moaner but every country has them.

Glad to see that you're delighted with the state of affairs here and thanks for your best wishes.

I am not 'moaning'. I am actually seriously worried about getting a mortgage / spending a lot money here only to discover the economy collapses (again).

Apparently I am supposed to 'wear the green jersey' and put up with this nonsense for the rest of my life.

At present due to public policy in Ireland and at EU level I have:

• No job security (in atmosphere of ridiculously high unemployment).
• Falling wages
• Increasing taxes
• Increasing costs across other areas e.g. health insurance, fuel, water charges, house hold charges, waste charges, you name it charges.
• Banks that seem to be threatening to collapse all the time (not just in Ireland but across the EU)
• A currency that commentators are constantly saying is going to fall apart.
• We're working with EU partners who seem to have no solidarity at all and once a crisis hit all moved towards a 'I'm all right jack' position. It's nothing remotely like a federal state.
• I could go on...

So, sorry if I'm a little concerned about my future here!
Glad to hear you're doing alright though and that you're finding our illustrious leaders (at Irish and EU level) so wonderful.

Aspects of this country are still working, but large aspects of it are also teetering on the brink all the time. I don't really see how I am supposed to be happy/satisfied with that. It's leaving me in a situation where I can't realistically plan anything.

Anynama141

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Please do. Once you are somewhere else maybe you will realise we are not massively unique. Every country and government has its issues.

You will find nobody likes a moaner but every country has them.

I was wondering when someone would roll out the old Bertie dismissal to a valid criticism, 'why don't you commit suicide'. It might have escaped your notice Ray but moaners are people who point out problems in a system and try to effect change. The fact that Ireland is still largely a jokeshop suggests that the people with the 'it will do' mentality like yourself are still well in the ascendant. That's as good a reason to quit Ireland as any, as it looks like it is never going to change.

gaius c

Anynama141 wrote: »

Why would they have to live on the street? Why don't they rent a place that they can afford? Or sell and buy a place they can afford? If homelessness is redefined as 'not owning a house' then we have already had a massive and growing epidemic of homelessness for the last few years.

Everybody in this country wants someone else to pay their way - 'the world owes me a living'. :rolleyes:

Besides, the 100k figure includes a large number of strategic defaulters - the true number is probably closer to 60k.

It also includes BTL so they won't be losing their homes anymore than Brendan Kelly's tenants did when he lost his Dalkey trophy house.

gaius c

Anynama141 wrote: »

In theory - of course the bank could rent the house back to them, and I'm sure that does/will happen a lot.

And what happens when they don't feel like paying the "rent"?
They get evicted? Sure, the bank backed down once already.

Anynama141

gaius c wrote: »

And what happens when they don't feel like paying the "rent"?
They get evicted? Sure, the bank backed down once already.

Sure renters are treated like scum in this country* - once they are 'mere renters', they can be booted out and nobody will blink.

*not necessarily by landlords, just a general attitude. I had some very decent landlords when I rented.

gaius c

Anynama141 wrote: »

There is no discount, there is only market price.

This is the situation:

Person A and person B wanted to buy a house. Person A borrowed as much as they could and borrowed a deposit from the credit union, and managed to scrape together more money than person B was willing to pay, bidding the price of the house up (and contributing to the bubble).

Person B shrugged her shoulders, said 'this is madness', and decided to rent for the next few years.

Then the bubble bursts, person A stops paying their mortgage, and now person A expects person B to pay not only their own rent, but also pay extra taxes to keep person A in the house that person B wasn't willing or able to afford in the first place. And perhaps, with these higher taxes, B will never be able to afford a house while A sits in her house and laughs.

And you think this is fair?

Stop responding to obvious strawman arguments.
If person A who can only afford to live in Ongar gets to "pay what they can" to remain in their house in Knocklyon, why on earth should guy B busting his hole to pay his mortgage in Knocklyon keep paying his? And why shouldn't lady C living and paying her own way in Ongar kick up about subsidising the lifestyle of person A?

cookie1977

Anynama141 wrote: »

Sure renters are treated like scum in this country* - once they are 'mere renters', they can be booted out and nobody will blink.

*not necessarily by landlords, just a general attitude. I had some very decent landlords when I rented.

You've clearly never tried to boot out a tenant. I appreciate there are lots of awful landlords but getting rid of bad tenants is extremely difficult under the law.

makeorbrake

Anynama141 wrote: »

Sure renters are treated like scum in this country* - once they are 'mere renters', they can be booted out and nobody will blink.

*not necessarily by landlords, just a general attitude. I had some very decent landlords when I rented.

Well, the prtb treat them disproportionately better than they do landlords. Someone could just as easily open another thread with this almost identical thread title: "Ireland, where paying your rent is optional".
Notwithstanding that, I think there are steps that could be taken to improve the situation for both tenant and landlord alike.

gaius c

Anynama141 wrote: »

Sure renters are treated like scum in this country* - once they are 'mere renters', they can be booted out and nobody will blink.

*not necessarily by landlords, just a general attitude. I had some very decent landlords when I rented.

The point is that they won't be "real renters" as they bought the house first day and managed to get a preferential rental rate in order to stay in it. Their neighbours would probably be totally unaware that they had become tenants in the house they used to own.

Believe me, they will be treated very differently to "real renters". If they get a debt write-off and preferential rental rate to stay in the house, they'll see how soft the taxpayer is and chance their arm for another few bob until they end up getting the house for free.

gaius c

Anynama141 wrote: »

What is your position on renters who stop paying their rent?

For some reason, you guys refuse to answer this one.

Oh but I'll pay my rent. It's just that the rent for my house with a garden in Ballsbridge is too high. It needs to be brought down to "what I can afford to pay". I've got private school bills for the kids to pay you know!

YOU CAN'T EVICT ME. YOU'LL MAKE ME HOMELESS. I COULDN'T POSSIBLY MOVE TO AN AREA THAT I CAN AFFORD. THAT'S JUST CRUEL.[/whine]

Anynama141

cookie1977 wrote: »

You've clearly never tried to boot out a tenant. I appreciate there are lots of awful landlords but getting rid of bad tenants is extremely difficult under the law.

I know the booting out can be difficult - I've complained about that on this forum and elsewhere. I was only speaking in terms of the public outcry.

gaius c

Nino Brown wrote: »

How is renting more expensive?

StillWaters wrote: »

The maths has been done many times on this forum, calculated over ones lifetime, buying is cheaper than renting.

In a normal functioning market, renting HAS to be more expensive than owning. Landlords wouldn't be able to make a profit otherwise.

Ray Palmer

Solair wrote: »

Glad to see that you're delighted with the state of affairs here and thanks for your best wishes.

I am not 'moaning'. I am actually seriously worried about getting a mortgage / spending a lot money here only to discover the economy collapses (again).

Apparently I am supposed to 'wear the green jersey' and put up with this nonsense for the rest of my life.

At present due to public policy in Ireland and at EU level I have:

• No job security (in atmosphere of ridiculously high unemployment).
• Falling wages
• Increasing taxes
• Increasing costs across other areas e.g. health insurance, fuel, water charges, house hold charges, waste charges, you name it charges.
• Banks that seem to be threatening to collapse all the time (not just in Ireland but across the EU)
• A currency that commentators are constantly saying is going to fall apart.
• We're working with EU partners who seem to have no solidarity at all and once a crisis hit all moved towards a 'I'm all right jack' position. It's nothing remotely like a federal state.
• I could go on...

So, sorry if I'm a little concerned about my future here!
Glad to hear you're doing alright though and that you're finding our illustrious leaders (at Irish and EU level) so wonderful.

Aspects of this country are still working, but large aspects of it are also teetering on the brink all the time. I don't really see how I am supposed to be happy/satisfied with that. It's leaving me in a situation where I can't realistically plan anything.

Unless you are doing something about a problem you are moaning. Given what you said you seem to have no understanding that the world is not a perfect place. Go to Canada and you will see they have similar problems.

Some of were about before and know that unemployment could be higher and is not at a ridiculous level as you claim.

You seem to think EU banks are the only ones in trouble too which isn't the case.

Currency instability is quite high everywhere.

You do go but I don't hear a single solution so all you are is moaning.

Please leave and actually learn you are wrong because you aren't helping anything here. The sooner they better ineffectual people leave. You will be greeted with open arms anywhere you go because everybody loves a moaner.

Anynama141 wrote: »

I was wondering when someone would roll out the old Bertie dismissal to a valid criticism, 'why don't you commit suicide'. It might have escaped your notice Ray but moaners are people who point out problems in a system and try to effect change. The fact that Ireland is still largely a jokeshop suggests that the people with the 'it will do' mentality like yourself are still well in the ascendant. That's as good a reason to quit Ireland as any, as it looks like it is never going to change.

Simply no, moaner are not people who try to effect change. They are people who complain and do nothing. Somebody who effects change is not a moaner. Like your complaint that Ireland is a "joke shop", no explanation of what you mean and no suggestion to make changes. So yes you are just a moaner. Valid criticism not present here just put downs.

Obvious lack of economic knowledge displayed. Moaning is ineffectual and does nothing.

Anynama141

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Obvious lack of economic knowledge displayed. Moaning is ineffectual and does nothing.

Ray, before you embarrass yourself further, I'll just tell you that I've studied economics at PhD level.

Now what specifically was that 'obvious lack of economic knowledge' that I displayed?

Ray Palmer

gaius c wrote: »

In a normal functioning market, renting HAS to be more expensive than owning. Landlords wouldn't be able to make a profit otherwise.

Actually it doesn't. A LL doesn't have to buy at current market prices they may already own. Eventually it will stabilise to a point where owning is cheaper than rent but it doesn't always need to be the case. The market doesn't function normally all the time in fact it can function abnormally just as much.

Solair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Unless you are doing something about a problem you are moaning. Given what you said you seem to have no understanding that the world is not a perfect place. Go to Canada and you will see they have similar problems.

You no nothing about me, or what I do or how much I have done to change things in this country in whatever way I can. So please stop making personally insulting statements.

Regarding Canada and other countries vs Ireland Hmmm.. checked the stats - No massive national debt, no unstable currency, healthy banking system...

Ray Palmer wrote:

Some of were about before and know that unemployment could be higher and is not at a ridiculous level as you claim.

I'm sorry, but you seriously think that an official unemployment rate of 14% and an actual jobless rate (when you remove the figure massaging e.g. jobbridge, fas etc) of 23% is acceptable?

Ray Palmer wrote:

You seem to think EU banks are the only ones in trouble too which isn't the case.

Currency instability is quite high everywhere.

Point me towards any other major currency that has an uncertain future? Is there some movement to split the US$ that I am unaware of? Or, perhaps Oskaka plans on setting up the New Yen and leaving Japan?

Ray Palmer wrote:

You do go but I don't hear a single solution so all you are is moaning.

Please leave and actually learn you are wrong because you aren't helping anything here. The sooner they better ineffectual people leave. You will be greeted with open arms anywhere you go because everybody loves a moaner.

I actually consider that serious personal abuse on a forum and I am reporting your post.
I am not being slagged off like that on an accommodation and property forum.

Normally, people on forums like these stick to discussing the content of posts, not attacking the poster. That's what people do when they want to just shut down debate and have no argument to make.

Nino Brown

Solair wrote: »

Point me towards any other major currency that has an uncertain future? Is there some movement to split the US$ that I am unaware of? Or, perhaps Oskaka plans on setting up the New Yen and leaving Japan?

Google the average life expectancy of fiat currencies, and have a look at the US debt and unfunded liabilities while you're at it. And Japans central banks promise to devalue the yen, by doubling the currency supply

Anynama141

Nino Brown wrote: »

Google the average life expectancy of fiat currencies, and have a look at the US debt and unfunded liabilities while you're at it. And Japans central banks promise to devalue the yen, by doubling the currency supply

To be fair, those are special cases - the US can print dollars as long as it's the world's primary reserve currency (but this obviously can't go on for ever) while Japan has been fighting deflation for 20 years.

Solair

The Euro's actually holding its value, my concern is more that there is no political effort to back it up. When it comes to the crunch, EU member states seem to just forget about solidarity and resort to old-fashioned back stabbing and hanging each other out to dry.

The Euro will collapse (or be wound up by the members) if that's the way things continue.

It's just brinkmanship negotiating, kick the can down the road, and a total lack of solidarity.

The EU wasn't ready for the Euro because it lacks the unity to actually run something as complex as a single currency. The project was far too aspirational and lacked the proper controls.

In the US for example, there's a stable, accepted, central government with far more workable democratic oversight.

That federal government can push huge amounts of money into states economies' via all sorts of routes and rebalance things. Risk with things like banks is also pooled by a unified banking system with the same banks operating across a vast market. In Europe that's not the case at all. It's just a bunch of small countries (most of whom don't seem to like each other all that much when you put them under pressure) trying to share a currency.

It still looks like it was a bridge too far.

Victor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Please do. Once you are somewhere else maybe you will realise we are not massively unique. Every country and government has its issues.

You will find nobody likes a moaner but every country has them.

Play nice.

Moderator

Nino Brown

Anynama141 wrote: »

To be fair, those are special cases - the US can print dollars as long as it's the world's primary reserve currency (but this obviously can't go on for ever) while Japan has been fighting deflation for 20 years.

Right now I think the US are backing themselves into a corner where they can't keep printing much longer, but they can't stop either. Some US states are beginning to declare gold a currency again, a symbolic gesture I know, but they're not doing it because they think the dollar is safe.

Solair

Nino Brown wrote: »

Right now I think the US are backing themselves into a corner where they can't keep printing much longer, but they can't stop either. Some US states are beginning to declare gold a currency again, a symbolic gesture I know, but they're not doing it because they think the dollar is safe.

One of the biggest differences though is that in the US system, individual states were not lumbered with local bank bailouts.

I don't think you'd see a situation where the Government of Arizona would have to recapitalise all the lenders in their housing bubble for example.
Where that has happened, it's happened at a federal level.

The American banking market's also dominated by large organisations that operate across all (or at least multiple) states under pretty much the same system of regulation.

In Europe you've hundreds of mini-banks operating under different regulation in a system that was plugged together rather crudely in what is basically a totally unprecedented setup.

The US can also address regional imbalances using federal funding of services, which is something the EU can't do other than in a tiny way via structural funds and agricultural payments.

----

All that being said, the US does have problems as do other countries, but I still don't think they're remotely on the scale of Ireland's, Spain's or any of the crisis-hit EU countries' issues right now.

A lot of Europeans have had the rug pulled out from under them and things that were considered 'stable' and trustworthy suddenly aren't.

Nino Brown

Solair wrote: »

One of the biggest differences though is that in the US system, individual states were not lumbered with local bank bailouts.

I don't think you'd see a situation where the Government of Arizona would have to recapitalise all the lenders in their housing bubble for example.
Where that has happened, it's happened at a federal level.

No, the banks were recapitalized by TARP, QE1,QE2,QE3 (printed money). Regardless of where it came from it expanded the money supply along with the current $85bn a month in QE4 , and expanding the money supply without an increase in economic output isn't sustainable. So my point is the dollar isn't the safe haven it used to be, in my opinion its no safer than the euro in the medium to long term. And some states obviously agree.

Solair

Nino Brown wrote: »

No, the banks were recapitalized by TARP, QE1,QE2,QE3 (printed money). Regardless of where it came from it expanded the money supply along with the current $85bn a month in QE4 , and expanding the money supply without an increase in economic output isn't sustainable. So my point is the dollar isn't the safe haven it used to be, in my opinion its no safer than the euro in the medium to long term. And some states obviously agree.

Regardless of where the money came from, it didn't come out of individual state's budgets, nor were individual states strapped to their banks by being forced to take out loans to recapitalise them by the Fed or anything equivalent to what went on in Europe.

I realise the US is largely living on bluster and borrowed time, but I still think Europe's in a much worse position due to the complete inability to make decisions.

The Euro was too rolled out too hastily. It may have been a lot less problematic had it been rolled out after a period of reforms and integrations of the other aspects of the financial system in Europe.

Seems to have been a big dose of putting the cart before the horse.

When push comes to shove, Americans tend to unite behind the idea of America. When push comes to shove in Europe, Europeans immediately revert to pre-WWII stereotyping of each other and all go Eurosceptic.

The way things are going we'll end up with a Eurozone consisting of Germany, the Netherlands and Finland with the rest of us having been forced out.

gaius c

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Actually it doesn't. A LL doesn't have to buy at current market prices they may already own. Eventually it will stabilise to a point where owning is cheaper than rent but it doesn't always need to be the case. The market doesn't function normally all the time in fact it can function abnormally just as much.

Thank you for agreeing with me in a disagreeable tone.

gaius c

Split mortgages plan won't work say MABS.

Reason being that the cohort in arrears are older than expected and won't have the funds to repay the split mortgage upon "maturity".

It finds that the majority of people in mortgage distress are aged between 41 and 65.

Experts said this was a new and explosive revelation and contradicted perceived wisdom that most of those in arrears are in their 30s.

These are the people who bought BTL's, upgraded their houses but kept their old house to rent out and used their houses as ATM's. No bailout for the insolvent landlord class I say!