disability benefits in ireland- david mc william's article

Treehousetim

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/mystery-of-massive-rise-in-those-quitting-workforce-on-disability-29170473.html

Good article. Brings a few questions to mind.
Are we a very sick nation ??

Count Dooku

Treehousetim wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/mystery-of-massive-rise-in-those-quitting-workforce-on-disability-29170473.html

Good article. Brings a few questions to mind.
Are we a very sick nation ??

If Fianna Fail rise in polls - then yes

NIMAN

Although we have many genuine cases, perhaps Ireland is now catching up with the North when it comes to people fiddling the system?

At one time a few census back, nearly 12% of Derry adults were on DLA, or disability Living Allowance. 1 in 8! Now, NI people are experts when it comes to fudging the benefit system, but that figure is just shocking. I'd say more than half were not entitled to anything, but knew what to say when interviewed. I even know of at least one community advisor who schooled people in what to say to make sure they qualified for it.

Re: this article, I wouldn't be surprised if depression was a big number among the figures. Easy to claim and hard to prove.

Treehousetim

Yeh shocking indeed but the gp does the application and gives the info to the department as far as I know. Its all done without face to face contact with the department..
I still believe the basic rates are too high ( and the rent supplement excessive) and yeh I'd say you are spot on about depression. Isn't it treatable in most cases though? Surely that's why we spend lots of taxpayers money providing drugs and doctors etc!! I'd say doctors are backed into a corner though..directives from the top need to factor that in.

woodoo

My neighbour has been on the sick for years and supplements his income with painting jobs. Its crazy he has a 2013 van with an attachment for a ladder on it yet is supposed to be off work sick.

spank_inferno

woodoo wrote: »

My neighbour has been on the sick for years and supplements his income with painting jobs. Its crazy he has a 2013 van with an attachment for a ladder on it yet is supposed to be off work sick.

So after you posted this here, I assume you reported this to the Dept of Social protection?

Good loser

spank_inferno wrote: »

So after you posted this here, I assume you reported this to the Dept of Social protection?

Why so? The information stands on its merits.

I heard of a guy who, once his wife got disability, started going to the Canaries three times a year with his brother.

Norwesterner

NIMAN wrote: »

Although we have many genuine cases, perhaps Ireland is now catching up with the North when it comes to people fiddling the system?

At one time a few census back, nearly 12% of Derry adults were on DLA, or disability Living Allowance. 1 in 8! Now, NI people are experts when it comes to fudging the benefit system, but that figure is just shocking. I'd say more than half were not entitled to anything, but knew what to say when interviewed. I even know of at least one community advisor who schooled people in what to say to make sure they qualified for it.

Re: this article, I wouldn't be surprised if depression was a big number among the figures. Easy to claim and hard to prove.

49% of households in Strabane contain at least one member on "disability"
Half the households????
I know a few on it,and anecdotal evidence suggest it's a scam.
Disability Allowance pays more and you're not pestered to continually sign at the office, or show proof of job seeking.

What this article in the O.P tells us, that after all the fiddling with the statistics, truth is we're probably not far behind Spain as regards the amount "out of work".
Who will be this surmounting and growing bill?
Things are unsustainable in Ireland.
Our children and grandchildren will live as serfs to pay for this generations "entitlement culture".

morlock_

You don't have to be physically disabled to be unfit for work.
I remember speaking with someone that had been sexually abused as a child and because of the traumatic experience and prescribed medication simply couldn't function as a normal person. It's common enough in Ireland.

Tearwave

Tmi

Scofflaw

First off, can I remind people that "I know a bloke who" isn't evidence of anything. Second, while there's some truth in the increase in disability figures (or at least disability benefit claimants), the source McWilliams is referring to is obviously the Census - hence 2002, 2006, 2011, the census years.

Plus, he's probably using the analysis the CSO published of disability figures - but, in typical McWilliams style, he doesn't bother to note something rather important they said:

Figure 3 above shows the number of males and females with a disability in 2006 and 2011. This is characterised by an increase in the number of disabled males and females in every age group, with an overall increase of 201,550 or 51.2 per cent in the 5 year period. This compares to an overall population increase of 8.2 per cent.

The changes to the wording of the questions have had an impact on the increases seen over the five years. Given the way the questions were changed it is not possible to identify to what extent these increases mask the actual underlying changes in disability, although a broadly similar age pattern can be observed for both censuses.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Gatling

As somebody who's is in receipt of disability allowence I've 2 degenerative medical conditions ,some people are getting DA based of one trip to a gp and there's been a sudden increase in 18-19 year old suffering bad backs too,guarantee's them the maximum 188pw social welfare payment and they never have to look for work ,my claim took a year to get and that was with 4 consultant's reports they put me off work not me asking them to,
I can't understand all these people disabled yet no ongoing medical treatments ,no physio no nothing ,look at the UK they brought in new strict medical's you must fail 14-15 test's now to keep their benefits 890,000 people suddenly declared themselves fit to work again ,

hfallada

You'll always find a genuine percentage on disability eg people with ms etc. But they're is people who are on cause they can't be arsed working. If you drew a map of Dublin and areas with have levels of disablity I'm sure it's fairly similar to areas of high unemployment.

I know it's not probably possible for equality. But a disablity benefit for people with a medically proven condition eg ms and one for others with "back pain" something that can't be proven. Also take into account has this person never worked a day in their life

Norwesterner

morlock_ wrote: »

You don't have to be physically disabled to be unfit for work.
I remember speaking with someone that had been sexually abused as a child and because of the traumatic experience and prescribed medication simply couldn't function as a normal person. It's common enough in Ireland.

Some people just throw in the towel, play the old "poor me", and don't even bother their hole trying.
Medication causes more problems than it solves.

Gatling

Just read the state benefits forum
disability taken off after medical exam .I don't feel like I can work ,no mention of pain or actual medical problems or anything how do I appeal couple of weeks later same posters " I won " I can get back to my life again threads are regularly repeated ,

Farmer Pudsey

woodoo wrote: »

My neighbour has been on the sick for years and supplements his income with painting jobs. Its crazy he has a 2013 van with an attachment for a ladder on it yet is supposed to be off work sick.

spank_inferno wrote: »

So after you posted this here, I assume you reported this to the Dept of Social protection?

The issue with disability is the rules around it. Some people are working the system. This creates an issue regarding those that are genuinely in need of it. Even if Woodoo reported his neighbour it is quite likly that he is within the rules of the benifit see below the terms from the citizen information website.

You can do rehabilitative work and earn up to €120 per week (after deduction of PRSI, any pension contributions and union dues) without your payment being affected. You must get permission from the Department of Social Protection before you start work.
50% of your earnings between €120 and €350 will not be taken into account in the Disability Allowance means test. Any earnings over €350 are fully assessed in the means test.
From 28 May 2012 people on Disability Allowance are eligible for JobBridge - the National Internship Scheme.
More information is available in our document Disability payments and work.


This is all to do with dependancy lifestyle. We need a fundemental shake up of our welfare system. Now to be fair there is a start on the Single Parents though it may not change the system much as some single parents may target having childern to maximise the number of years that they stay on the benifit.

On Disability those that abuse the system do a disservice to those that really need it. It is the same as Sick leave in the PS those that abuse the benifit again will disadvantage fellow workers who will will be under stress when new rules are applied,

NIMAN

They have started to clamp down now in the North, and it is getting a lot harder to qualify for 'unfit for work' criteria.

In the past it was 'unfit for work', now its changed to a more 'fitness to do certain jobs' idea.

In the past you would have been able to qualify if you had, for example, mobility issues and unable to walk over long distances. Now the system has changed to say "so you can't walk or carry things?, fair enough, but can you sit? You can, good cos we can get you a job sitting at a desk all day". Then they can no longer say they can't do the job. So if they don't accept it, they lose benefits.

The benefit system is unsustainable in the UK too, and major plans are afoot to get it reduced as much as they can.

sunbeam

NIMAN wrote: »

They have started to clamp down now in the North, and it is getting a lot harder to qualify for 'unfit for work' criteria.

In the past it was 'unfit for work', now its changed to a more 'fitness to do certain jobs' idea.

In the past you would have been able to qualify if you had, for example, mobility issues and unable to walk over long distances. Now the system has changed to say "so you can't walk or carry things?, fair enough, but can you sit? You can, good cos we can get you a job sitting at a desk all day". Then they can no longer say they can't do the job. So if they don't accept it, they lose benefits.

The benefit system is unsustainable in the UK too, and major plans are afoot to get it reduced as much as they can.

Have you read the Spartacus Report detailing numerous claimants' experiences of the Work Capacity Assessment in the UK? Many would contend that it is merely an unfit for purpose box ticking exercise, where claimants are frequently asked questions irrelevant to their conditions, often not by a doctor but a nurse or physiotherapist with no knowledge of their health issues and evidence from their own consultants is ignored. People who are at deaths doorstep have been found 'fit for work'.

Last year Channel 4 aired a Dispatches special where a doctor went undercover with ATOS and revealed that they are working to targets to fail a certain proportion of people-claims that are backed up by other whistle-blowers like this nurse who contends that ATOS had no interest in her professional opinion, only cutting the number of claimants.

DLA in the UK is not the same as Disability Allowance here-you can get it whether or not you work. It is about to be replaced with a new Personal Independence Payment.

While there is room for refinement of the applications process for the various disability payments here, the UK model in its current form is not one I would like to see us follow.

Norwesterner

In Spain, the Govt put disabled people (even those in wheelchairs) in little kiosks in the street, where they sell National Lottery tickets and earn a commision.
I think it's good for the disabled person as it gives them an incentive to get up in the morning, they are meeting and interacting and they are paying their own way in society (improving self-esteem).
It absolutely irritates me to see young men and women in their 20's, able-bodied and claiming to be unable to do ANY job.
But the Nanny Welfare State does that to people, and they are to blame for the idleness of many.

Farmer Pudsey

sunbeam wrote: »

Have you read the Spartacus Report detailing numerous claimants' experiences of the Work Capacity Assessment in the UK? Many would contend that it is merely an unfit for purpose box ticking exercise, where claimants are frequently asked questions irrelevant to their conditions, often not by a doctor but a nurse or physiotherapist with no knowledge of their health issues and evidence from their own consultants is ignored. People who are at deaths doorstep have been found 'fit for work'.

Last year Channel 4 aired a Dispatches special where a doctor went undercover with ATOS and revealed that they are working to targets to fail a certain proportion of people-claims that are backed up by other whistle-blowers like this nurse who contends that ATOS had no interest in her professional opinion, only cutting the number of claimants.

DLA in the UK is not the same as Disability Allowance here-you can get it whether or not you work. It is about to be replaced with a new Personal Independence Payment.

While there is room for refinement of the applications process for the various disability payments here, the UK model in its current form is not one I would like to see us follow.

Sunbeam this is what happen when a scheme is abused those that need it are disadvantages as well as those that are abusing it

Treehousetim

To be fair the doctors are probably stuck with the legal things that qualify and have to adhere to that or else they can have legal action taken. So is it their faults? The whole thing is outdated I'm sure and over generous but Burton probably won't want to revise it for fear of losing votes. I doubt the doctors are the only ones to blame, more so the decision makers on the criteria for qualifying.

Norwesterner

Catch 2 or 3 fraudsters, name and shame them on some T.V programme, and instill a climate of fear and paranoia amongst the rest.
Brits do these shows at least once a year.

Gatling

Norwesterner wrote: »

Catch 2 or 3 fraudsters, name and shame them on some T.V programme, and instill a climate of fear and paranoia amongst the rest.
Brits do these shows at least once a year.

The English have the right idea ,
890,000 people withdrew there disability and declared themselves suddenly fit to work again. As they new they would have not failed all 14 points in the new medicals to be declared unfit to work

Norwesterner

Gatling wrote: »

The English have the right idea ,
890,000 people withdrew there disability and declared themselves suddenly fit to work again. As they new they would have not failed all 14 points in the new medicals to be declared unfit to work

You'd be surprised how many Brits are living abroad and claiming Disability.
Govt knew this and obviously brought in this extra burden of bureucracy to prompt the fraudsters to throw in the towel.

Also read once that the Irish welfare Fraud squad have direct access to flight passenger information, in the look out for those claiming and living abroad.

Gatling

Norwesterner wrote: »

You'd be surprised how many Brits are living abroad and claiming Disability.
Govt knew this and obviously brought in this extra burden of bureucracy to prompt the fraudsters to throw in the towel.

Also read once that the Irish welfare Fraud squad have direct access to flight passenger information, in the look out for those claiming and living abroad.

I believe the Icelandic volcano eruption from a few years ago through up a big red flag here as the amount of payments that weren't collected as people couldn't fly in,
Our system is crazy its like there's no checks and balances people get caught they appeal keep there benefit and pay back a bare minimum amount of repayment

Treehousetim

"Meanwhile, the number of people leaving the labour force citing a psychological or emotional condition has risen even more dramatically – 88,000 people are now diagnosed with an emotional or psychological condition that is bad enough that they can't work. This is a 27,000 rise from the same figure in 2006."

I think this is the interesting part of the article. I'm not sure that the evidence shows that not working for the long term when you have depressions or anxiety problems is the most effective way to manage those problems. I doubt it is. This looks like the one to tackle. Maybe bring some sort of protected employment options for them. Separate them from the other illnesses and bring in a scheme just for this. Sitting at home can't be therapeutic.

schnitzelEater

Very disappointing if the speculated levels of benefit fraud are actually true.

AlekSmart

schnitzelEater wrote: »

Very disappointing if the speculated levels of benefit fraud are actually true.

But not in the least surprising.

AlekSmart

Scofflaw wrote: »

First off, can I remind people that "I know a bloke who" isn't evidence of anything. Second, while there's some truth in the increase in disability figures (or at least disability benefit claimants), the source McWilliams is referring to is obviously the Census - hence 2002, 2006, 2011, the census years.

Plus, he's probably using the analysis the CSO published of disability figures - but, in typical McWilliams style, he doesn't bother to note something rather important they said:

cordially,
Scofflaw

The stats which I tend to silently gaze at are the DSP's own set of numbers....

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/2011stats.pdf

Incredible collection of zero's for our VERY small Republic....(Never mind the NI stats,as yet they're not our problem)

2002 Disability Allowance total-62,783.
2011 Disability Allowance total-102,866.

This is just the single DA payment and not any of the other classifications which can be availed of.

Provisional Cost for 2011...€1,089,178,000 (provisional)....

Given that we have already re-written the general principle of all Insurance worldwide-"The premiums of the Many Pay the Claims of the Few" into the diametrically opposite "The premiums of the few,pay the claims of the Many.

Anecdotally,I have met people who have been "migrated" onto Disability from other payments without having sought it,and been hugely satisfied to recieve,out of the blue,a Free Travel Pass in the post ten-days later...Happy days

Ye dont have to be a David McWilly to smell a big freaky Smoked Cod here....there simply can't be that much Flouride in our water,can there ..?

At this point I suspect the issue for the Irish Government is simply about keeping a lid on social unrest.
It will,I reckon,be left to the Germans to actually do the necessary withdrawal of funding.

skafish

AlekSmart wrote: »

The stats which I tend to silently gaze at are the DSP's own set of numbers....

http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/2011stats.pdf

Incredible collection of zero's for our VERY small Republic....(Never mind the NI stats,as yet they're not our problem)

2002 Disability Allowance total-62,783.
2011 Disability Allowance total-102,866.

This is just the single DA payment and not any of the other classifications which can be availed of.

Provisional Cost for 2011...€1,089,178,000 (provisional)....

Given that we have already re-written the general principle of all Insurance worldwide-"The premiums of the Many Pay the Claims of the Few" into the diametrically opposite "The premiums of the few,pay the claims of the Many.

Anecdotally,I have met people who have been "migrated" onto Disability from other payments without having sought it,and been hugely satisfied to recieve,out of the blue,a Free Travel Pass in the post ten-days later...Happy days

Ye dont have to be a David McWilly to smell a big freaky Smoked Cod here....there simply can't be that much Flouride in our water,can there ..?

At this point I suspect the issue for the Irish Government is simply about keeping a lid on social unrest.
It will,I reckon,be left to the Germans to actually do the necessary withdrawal of funding.

And while all this is going on, the government want to cut the salaries and decimate the terms and conditions of employment of the PS

Farmer Pudsey

skafish wrote: »

And while all this is going on, the government want to cut the salaries and decimate the terms and conditions of employment of the PS

If you look at post and threads most posters that want reform of the PS also wan reform of SW, the HSE and the Black Economy

skafish

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you look at post and threads most posters that want reform of the PS also wan reform of SW, the HSE and the Black Economy

Why does reform necessate massive reductions in salaries (on top of those already imposed) and working conditions for the PS?

jimmycrackcorm

skafish wrote: »

Why does reform necessate massive reductions in salaries (on top of those already imposed) and working conditions for the PS?

Because they are justified in their own right.

volauvent

With all the costs involved in getting to work, being presentable at work, childcare..I'm pretty sure a lot of people work for the social benefit of it. And they are hoping that one day the unfairness of the system as it is, where being on sickness related welfare is equally/more financially rewarding than many jobs, will be changed.

Farmer Pudsey

volauvent wrote: »

With all the costs involved in getting to work, being presentable at work, childcare..I'm pretty sure a lot of people work for the social benefit of it. And they are hoping that one day the unfairness of the system as it is, where being on sickness related welfare is equally/more financially rewarding than many jobs, will be changed.

History tells us different.

NIMAN

The current system of benefits in Ireland, and the UK, simply cannot continue unabated. Its not affordable and not sustainable long term, so I think Gov's will have to make it a lot more attractive for the working, tax paying population, and less attractive for those who think they can live on the welfare system.

skafish

NIMAN wrote: »

The current system of benefits in Ireland, and the UK, simply cannot continue unabated. Its not affordable and not sustainable long term, so I think Gov's will have to make it a lot more attractive for the working, tax paying population, and less attractive for those who think they can live on the welfare system.

Unfortunatley, even our own recent history shows what happens when the government try and reform the SW SYSTEM. Think back to the protests a few years ago when they tried to introduce means testing for medical cards for pensioners??

Treehousetim

I agree. They would rather take even more off the working people who often are obliged to live in expensive areas,near Dublin city etc, so pay a large amount of their income on accommodation and have lots of other work related costs, than challenge the welfare excess. It is largely on account of this that I will not be voting labour nor fine Gael again. I thought fine Gael might have the balls to tackle it ( and the theft from the taxpayer by many individuals and banks ) but clearly they don't. As for labour, wishy washy panderers.

NIMAN

skafish wrote: »

Unfortunatley, even our own recent history shows what happens when the government try and reform the SW SYSTEM. Think back to the protests a few years ago when they tried to introduce means testing for medical cards for pensioners??

But it HAS TO HAPPEN, it has to. There is no other way. Thats the bottom line. Unless every tax payer will have a 90% tax rate for every Euro they earn in the future.

skafish

NIMAN wrote: »

But it HAS TO HAPPEN, it has to. There is no other way. Thats the bottom line. Unless every tax payer will have a 90% tax rate for every Euro they earn in the future.

While I'm inclined to agree that reform of SW and elimination of the black economy are essential, I have absolutley no confidence in Eunach Kenny growing the balls necessary to tacle these issues

josealdo

I'm living in a house bought during the boom , unmarried mothers live in the same estate for free . doesn't seem fair .

choose between a 1000 month morgage or 20 a week rent for similar house ??
With hand outs like that .No wonder the country is fcuked

then say your handicap or depressed or can't face people and get an extra 50 euro a week .

josealdo

then tell the social you need a holiday

No wonder the SW bill is 21 Billion EVERY YEAR

Treehousetim

NIMAN wrote: »

But it HAS TO HAPPEN, it has to. There is no other way. Thats the bottom line. Unless every tax payer will have a 90% tax rate for every Euro they earn in the future.

What 'has to happen' for any politician is to get or stay elected to feather their own nest. They analyse your ability to influence this - ie. 1 sole vote, and treat you according to this.

Gatling

figs666 wrote: »

I'm living in a house bought during the boom , unmarried mothers live in the same estate for free . doesn't seem fair .

choose between a 1000 month morgage or 20 a week rent for similar house ??
With hand outs like that .No wonder the country is fcuked

then say your handicap or depressed or can't face people and get an extra 50 euro a week .

I don't get I get 188 pw I don't get a household allowance money towards a phone and your ESB bill , I don't take the fuel allowence 20e a week or the 80+e pa for winter clothing allowance,
Now add the Rent allowance for some 800+e pm
Then some can go to work and earn up to 350 pw before losing some of there rent allowance ,
Now the rule is the work must be considered rehabilitative before there allowed to work ,so if some of the people claiming disability can easily earn 350pw then they should be signed off welfare altogether

Busted Flat.

Dick Spring was in a crash while in a state car back in the eighties, he got 75,00 pounds for his disability and and continued to receive his Dail salary. Emmett Stagg got 10,000 pounds after claiming he was assaulted while changing a wheel on his car at the Paple Cross in the Pheonix Park, on his way from the Dail to his home in Kildare, (that was before Sat nav). We learned later how that came about. Start at the top before hitting the Plebs at the bottom of the ladder.

mikemac1

88,000 cannot work due to an psychological or emotional condition.

Very serious of course and people need help but as Gatling posted, signing somebody off and putting them on disability mightn't be the best solution though I'm no doctor.

All I know is staring at the 4 walls every day will hurt anyone's mental health.

If there are certain jobs you cannot do then surely there are others that you can? Not everyone can a project manager or other top job with huge pressure but can you do something else?

I'm thinking of maybe a job in a garden centre or working in landscaping, a good job, you may not have to deal with customers if you anxious but it does get you outside and it could be enjoyable.
Just an example, I'd like a job like that

When I was unemployed I did a course with CERT which was tourism training. Got a job at the end if it and did wonders for my confidence.

Is giving someone a pass and an allowance and telling them they are incapable of work really the best solution?

Treehousetim

Regarding mental health, there are probably a percentage that have the symptoms they are reporting. And illnesses that affect all abilities ie schizophrenias or Alzheimer's or brain damage are valid obstacles to work.
Then there appears to be a percentage who are using the fuzziness of these conditions to manipulate, gain concessions and gain money. I don't think my tax should pay for someone who fakes having depression because on balance they earn more doing that.
Plus I know lots of people who have worked with a depression/ anxiety problem, bearing in mind they might need to take some weeks off here and there which is understandable.

NIMAN

People getting treatment for depression are not automatically unfit for work. Depression has many different levels and many people who are being treated for it, or even struggling on without treatment, manage to hold down jobs fine.

Its not an automatic "sit in the house all day" problem, although obviously those with more severe cases may not be able to function in a workplace.

NIMAN

Treehousetim wrote: »

I don't think my tax should pay for someone who fakes having depression because on balance they earn more doing that.

The welfare system will continue to be abused by many as long as they can earn close to, an equal amount to, or even more than, someone who is working full time.

I have always thought that anyone who is working should never be earning less than someone not working. Otherwise where is the incentive to get up every morning and go to work? Whilst we have systems in place where working can actually cost you money, then abuse will always happen.

Maura74

Well, this is what Boy George thinks about disabled parking bays, well, what can they voters expect when George had one part time job folding towels in Selfridges store before he became a career politician. Also it was Margaret Thatcher that put unemployed people on disabled benefits when she was in power and today the Tories are undoing what their Thatcher did when she was in power.

http://www.dailyshame.co.uk/2013/04/satire/the-day-i-saw-george-osborne-park-in-a-disabled-parking-bay/

Treehousetim

NIMAN wrote: »

The welfare system will continue to be abused by many as long as they can earn close to, an equal amount to, or even more than, someone who is working full time.

I think this is the most important point. Human nature is programmed to get the best for itself so of course people will con and abuse.
I do think people with illnesses that make their lives more expensive.. Like say total blindness, a serious mental handicap, terminal cancers should not suffer hardship. In these cases I think a generous benefit is warranted. Why someone with a mild version of depression is given the same as someone dying from a brain tumour or someone mentally handicapped is ridiculous.
This blanket definition of a "disability" is unhelpful and means that the government has to tread around cutting disability like on eggshells because the media focus on the blind, the handicapped etc to provoke reactions when any cuts to disability are proposed.