Metro North and Dart Underground costs revealed

Victor

cabrasnake wrote: »

For reasons best known to 'aard he went off on a schoolboy makey up diversion nothing to do with the point which was that DU covered a lot more of Dubland than MN.

Constructive posts only please.

Moderator

cabrasnake wrote: »

So, you reckon the illuminati were behind this news release? Jim Corr absolutely agrees.

He probably also has an answer to why news about DU is good for the CIE brand. Cos 99.9% of the comments in the indo were vehemently against DU. With cuts to social welfare and carers allowances and spl needs teachers big ticket investments like DU are very unpopular.
In fact oddly enough the public on the whole blame the gov for the DB strike, bankers are laughing at the people and workers are paying for their gambles.

But maybe you're correct. It's all part of the plan.

On topic, please.

Moderator

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Why now? Isn't it pretty obvious?

There was damage to the CIE brand because of the bus strike. So a positive news story was needed to show that CIE (as a group) is a go-ahead, proactive entity, which can get things done in the 21st century.

Hard for any positive news from DB to be well received. Not much point in a press release from BE, since that mostly affects the culchies. No, of the CIE companies the only one which could really produce a positive story to try and show several hundred thousand pissed-off Dubs that CIE is actually not so bad, it was really going to be down to IE.

IE don't have a whole heap of positive stuff, so the interconnector was wheeled out.

Obviously IE are top of the suspects list but there are details in that Indo report re new funding (possibly) available from the EU and EIB that have never been mentioned before.

EIB money has never been mentioned before re Dart Underground - €500m was approved for Metro North but, to best of my knowledge, EIB money was never even sought in respect of DartU. Now, the Indo tells us a €400m loan is available from the EIB for DartU. When did this happen?

And where has this €780m (30% cost of the project) of EU money that 'could' be available suddenly come from?

Given the detail and tenor of the report and the quotes from the 'Department of Transport spokesman', it implies to me a political motive for the leak ahead of the Budget.

European support for DartU is mentioned which means the EU has been lobbied for money for the project. That's political and nothing to do with IE.

This is a flyer by someone in government. The question is, who?

Jack Noble

aindriu80 wrote: »

They are just crap at infrastructure and finance. They can only do one thing at a time and for now its paying off the banks for the next decade at least. They should have the likes of that tunnel in the phoenix park opened years ago. It has been mentioned for ages and its still not being used ?

There are no surprises that Metro or DART underground has been shelved because the pixies in charge can't put their heads together.

Metro is for a Dublin city that doesn't exist. You would expect DART already to have the underground segment. If it just comes down to money then that's it for a decade (unless we hit oil).


Like Bus Aras ? I think that idea has been around for a looong time but is really needed.

It comes down to politcal will as much as money.

Dart/Luas/Metro has been around for 40 years now in various incarnations but only three lines have been built in that time, even when there was plenty of money available whether it was from Irish, European or private sector.

Why is that?

Jack Noble

bk wrote: »

Reading this article it is clear that some one at Irish Rail has the ear of someone at the times.

The article makes out that Metro North has been scrapped and that Dart Underground is "protected".

In fact the report says the same thing about both the MN and DU projects, that investments made in them already need to be "protected" for when they go ahead at a future date.

BTW the fact that MN and DU are such important projects under the 2030 plan, but less important under this plan isn't incompatible. The 2030 plan is a long term plan, these new plan is a short term plan up till 2018. Given the current economic situation it was always very unlikely they were going to go ahead in the next few years. Instead they are rightfully focusing on small cheap plans (cycling, BRT, Luas Cross City, etc.) for the next few years, but that doesn't mean MN and DU won't happen before 2030.

That IT piece is an 'analysis' by Frank McDonald. That's all you need to know right there.

Victor

Jack Noble wrote: »

And where has this €780m (30% cost of the project) of EU money that 'could' be available suddenly come from?

...

European support for DartU is mentioned which means the EU has been lobbied for money for the project. That's political and nothing to do with IE.

Presumably trans-European transport network (TEN-T) http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/infrastructure/index_en.htm

Jack Noble

Victor wrote: »

Presumably trans-European transport network (TEN-T) http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/infrastructure/index_en.htm

TEN-T has been around since the mid-90s and the agency that manages and coordinates projects classed as TEN-T on behalf of the EU was established in 2006.

The Interconnector/Dart Underground has been around for roughly the same period and became Irish govt policy as part of Transport 21 in 2005.

If DU was such was a 'significant project on a European scale', why was this EU funding not available from the mid-2000s and why was the project not progressed with the highest priortity by the Irish govt and the EU?

Why has this funding suddenly become available now - if it is actually available?

monument

Jack Noble wrote: »

TEN-T has been around since the mid-90s and the agency that manages and coordinates projects classed as TEN-T on behalf of the EU was established in 2006.

The Interconnector/Dart Underground has been around for roughly the same period and became Irish govt policy as part of Transport 21 in 2005.

If DU was such was a 'significant project on a European scale', why was this EU funding not available from the mid-2000s and why was the project not progressed with the highest priortity by the Irish govt and the EU?

Why has this funding suddenly become available now - if it is actually available?

Because Irish Rail were being realistic (and possibly also playing the game of political and PR) by splitting the project up -- the KRP, the tunnel, the electrification, the resigning etc.

But now there's at least some intent to bunch the remainder if what is left into one project, for funding at least.

Dart Underground had already qualified or pre-qualified for T-TEN funding, but now by bunching the project togather the EU would be able to give more (the smaller parts on their own would likely not have got anything).

Adding an airport link would also likely increase the project's priority for T-TEN -- linking loads of rail and LRT lines including the Belfast line was enough for T-TEN, linking those to an airport also should be an even stronger selling point given the agency's remit.

There could be other factors at play too -- like the EU wanting to spend more on infrastructure which links the EU better.

GerardKeating

Victor wrote: »

I can't see any map.

Sorry, I read the "print" edition version of the article, it had a map.

Kind of like this one

Jack Noble

monument wrote: »

Because Irish Rail were being realistic (and possibly also playing the game of political and PR) by splitting the project up -- the KRP, the tunnel, the electrification, the resigning etc.

But now there's at least some intent to bunch the remainder if what is left into one project, for funding at least.

Dart Underground had already qualified or pre-qualified for T-TEN funding, but now by bunching the project togather the EU would be able to give more (the smaller parts on their own would likely not have got anything).

Adding an airport link would also likely increase the project's priority for T-TEN -- linking loads of rail and LRT lines including the Belfast line was enough for T-TEN, linking those to an airport also should be an even stronger selling point given the agency's remit.

There could be other factors at play too -- like the EU wanting to spend more on infrastructure which links the EU better.

But it's not IE who push for inclusion in EU programmes like TEN-T and EU funding streams.

That's down to ministers and senior officials with their counterparts in Brussels and other EU governments. And the recent Indo piece on Dart Underground suggests to me that there has been (successful?) lobbying at EU level by the Irish government for EU support for Dart Underground.

Varadkar could not do this on his own without the support of Kenny, Noonan and Howlin and their respective senior departmental officials.

That's what suggests to me this is very much a political flyer and not simply a plant IE's PR section.

A Dept Transport spokesperson could not have said what they said to the Indo without ministerial approval.

We'll see soon enough, possibly in the October Budget but more likely through next year when they begin framing the post-2015 capital spending envelope.

AngryLips

What would the journey time be for Dublin Airport to Heuston? And how many trains per hour to Howth could be diverted to the airport with the introduction of a Howth shuttle?

bk

AngryLips wrote: »

What would the journey time be for Dublin Airport to Heuston? And how many trains per hour to Howth could be diverted to the airport with the introduction of a Howth shuttle?

Well Connolly to the Airport will be 25 minutes, so probably 35 minutes or more.

They plan a frequency of every 15 minutes.

To compare it currently takes 40 minutes for Aircoach to get to the city center.

Metro North is planned to take less then 20 minutes to get to the city center and runs every 5 minutes.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

Well Connolly to the Airport will be 25 minutes, so probably 35 minutes or more.

They plan a frequency of every 15 minutes.

To compare it currently takes 40 minutes for Aircoach to get to the city center.

Metro North is planned to take less then 20 minutes to get to the city center and runs every 5 minutes.

Dublin Bus offers a service through the port tunnel giving a 25 minute journey time, negating any benefits of a DART spur.

AngryLips

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin Bus offers a service through the port tunnel giving a 25 minute journey time, negating any benefits of a DART spur.

Have you ever used this service? It is usually about 50 minutes Dublin Airport to Heuston.

lucernarian

AngryLips wrote: »

Have you ever used this service? It is usually about 50 minutes Dublin Airport to Heuston.

It's 25 minutes from Busarás to Dublin Airport, typically. Which is the comparison being made here, and tbh it doesn't say much for a spur like this that it can only match the times of a bus service between each destination. There are other advantages, sure, but time to the city centre (O'Connell St, Grafton St. etc) is not one of them before Dart Underground is built.

Uriel.

Personally, I wouldn't be in favour of a BRT from Swords to the city. I think it's a waste of money, while unlikely to provide any real benefits.

I really can't see how an on surface route running the entirety of Swords to City Centre would provide any meaningful decrease in journey times or any increase inconvenience. In all likelihood it will probably cause additional problems for other road users (cars etc..) and not reach a a significant audience to outweigh the problems it will create.

But I'll reserve final judgement until a more detailed plan is available.

cgcsb

AngryLips wrote: »

Have you ever used this service? It is usually about 50 minutes Dublin Airport to Heuston.

yes, regularly, I used to work at the airport. It sometimes takes 40 mins to Heuston, with 25 to the City Centre.

cgcsb

Uriel. wrote: »

Personally, I wouldn't be in favour of a BRT from Swords to the city. I think it's a waste of money, while unlikely to provide any real benefits.

I really can't see how an on surface route running the entirety of Swords to City Centre would provide any meaningful decrease in journey times or any increase inconvenience. In all likelihood it will probably cause additional problems for other road users (cars etc..) and not reach a a significant audience to outweigh the problems it will create.

But I'll reserve final judgement until a more detailed plan is available.

I could see the benefits of it if it were a lot more separated from other traffic than the current QBC system, but it would mean radical changes to the Swords road, a lot of disruption, entirely new buses and stops constucted for a system that is completely insufficient for Sword's needs. It'd be a lot of money and disruption to other road users for a slight improvement of service.

Banjoxed

AngryLips wrote: »

Have you ever used this service? It is usually about 50 minutes Dublin Airport to Heuston.

I stopped using the Dublin Bus Airport to Heuston because the run to Heuston from Busaras via the south city centre was ridiculously long (and had to sit around for an hour at Heuston as a result). And that loud advert for Dublin Bus tours was really bloody annoying as well.

Banjoxed

Uriel. wrote: »

Personally, I wouldn't be in favour of a BRT from Swords to the city. I think it's a waste of money, while unlikely to provide any real benefits.

I really can't see how an on surface route running the entirety of Swords to City Centre would provide any meaningful decrease in journey times or any increase inconvenience. In all likelihood it will probably cause additional problems for other road users (cars etc..) and not reach a a significant audience to outweigh the problems it will create.

But I'll reserve final judgement until a more detailed plan is available.

Unless there is a reserved alignment, it isn't BRT. Chances are that what is being touted as "BRT" will be standard Dublin Bus lanes replete with the usual mixing with traffic at pinch points. Only distinction may be articulated buses with limited stops.

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

I could see the benefits of it if it were a lot more separated from other traffic than the current QBC system, but it would mean radical changes to the Swords road, a lot of disruption, entirely new buses and stops constucted for a system that is completely insufficient for Sword's needs. It'd be a lot of money and disruption to other road users for a slight improvement of service.

Let's see what they come up with before claiming it will be only a "slight improvement of service."

Banjoxed wrote: »

Unless there is a reserved alignment, it isn't BRT.

A number of BRT systems have some shared section.

Banjoxed

monument wrote: »

Let's see what they come up with before claiming it will be only a "slight improvement of service."




A number of BRT systems have some shared section.

There would want to be some attempt at segregated running/full priority or it won't matter if its called BRT as it won't be going anywhere quickly.

Aard

Talking about BRT specifically in the context of Dublin -- I agree that priority at junctions is a necessity. There are definitely constraints in places regarding giving fully segregated running (e.g. by the Cat and Cage, as mentioned already) but this can be made up for by redesigning junctions to allow busses through first and without delay.

monument

Aard wrote: »

There are definitely constraints in places regarding giving fully segregated running (e.g. by the Cat and Cage, as mentioned already) but this can be made up for by redesigning junctions to allow busses through first and without delay.

Cat and Cage pinch point at an advanced stage of being removed.

iopener

monument wrote: »

Cat and Cage pinch point at an advanced stage of being removed.

I will believe that when I see it. They're building something across the road at st. Pats

cgcsb

iopener wrote: »

I will believe that when I see it. They're building something across the road at st. Pats

It's a new bus lane