Metro North and Dart Underground costs revealed

Aard

I know it's been indicated on official maps, but has any other info been given on the Poddle alignment?

Jack Noble

cgcsb wrote: »

a luas E / poddle route to Tallaght would be the front runner for a souther extension.

The green line would be out because there would be too much dupilcation of service. The N11 is approx half way between the DART and Green luas so it would be taking in a lot of the same catchment. The N11 also has the best uninterupted QBC in Dublin. The N11 may see a switch from QBC to BRT in the future.

South West Dublin (Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure, Harold's X etc.) on the other hand is full of densely populated suburbs. These areas are crippled by peak time traffic and there is no main arterial routes in the area for metro to compete with. Introducing metro to these areas will really put a dent in the car orientated modal split.

The upgrade of the Green Line to Metro is in the NTA's plans and is part of the 2030 Vision strategy published in 2011. That plans Metro services from
Swords to Bray, Tallaght to Cherrywood and Tallaght to Swords.

Of course, a metro from to Tallaght to Swords via SSG and Kimmage was in Platform for Change from 2001. In 2030 Vision that's planned as a Luas line to Broombridge via SSG - and may even be downgraded further to BRT.

Here's the map contained in 2030Vision - the draft strategy is on the NTA website.



Of course, like PFC before it, by the time the next Dublin transportation strategy is revealed in, say, 2021, it will probably be different again and we'll still be talking about when the Metro and Dart projects may start!

thisisadamh

Why do we have 3 different rail systems. Metro, DART and Luas. There should be two at most. Luas for light rail, and DART for Metro/Heavy Rail. Having 3 just complicates things and means that there is less flexibility with routes and rolling stock because metro trains cant run on dart lines and visa versa.

In my opinion Dart underground should be build as planned with an additional branch coming off just after Pearse and then going North towards upper O'Connell street through an underground platform Connolly Station and then follow the planned metro north alignment towards swords. This way a Airport/Swords service can start from Heuston through, St Stephens Green, Pearse, Connolly, all stations to airport and swords. This would allow intercity passengers to hop on a DART to the airport after disembarking from their intercity train. No having to make 2 changes on two different rail systems: dart then metro north/luas then metro north. Its too much hassle for people to change twice going to the airport with heavy bags. They will just get the bus otherwise. One change from intercity to airport is ideal.

This way rolling stock can be interchanged. There can be special services: Cork to Airport. But this can only happen if it is all DART.

aindriu80

Agreed. I would rather they went ahead with Metro as much as possible as opposed to having another system. This of course all costs money but I think if Ireland wanted it we could have it. Dart still has it uses though.

FreudianSlippers

aindriu80 wrote: »

Agreed. I would rather they went ahead with Metro as much as possible as opposed to having another system. This of course all costs money but I think if Ireland wanted it we could have it. Dart still has it uses though.

I have little to no doubt that if the government went to the Troika and the European Investment Bank and asked for money to build MN and DU as it would create immediate and medium (as well as some long) term jobs they would get the money. Our problem has always been governments without vision - and I think some of that has to do with the electoral system in the country and the rural/urban priorities split.

Victor

thisisadamh wrote: »

Why do we have 3 different rail systems. Metro, DART and Luas. There should be two at most. Luas for light rail, and DART for Metro/Heavy Rail.

'Metro' is merely an idea. Service-wise, it will be very similar to the existing Luas Green Line, with the main difference being that it will be underground for half it's distance. It may even be called Luas.

Mr Simpson

Victor wrote: »

'Metro' is merely an idea. Service-wise, it will be very similar to the existing Luas Green Line, with the main difference being that it will be underground for half it's distance. It may even be called Luas.

I though Metro indicated Higher Capacity & Frequency. Hence people always talking about upgrading luas lines to metro

Victor

Mr Simpson wrote: »

I though Metro indicated Higher Capacity & Frequency. Hence people always talking about upgrading luas lines to metro

There is an element of hair splitting in it.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I think a Stephens green - South Circular - Harolds Cross - Terenure road (halfway between Terenure village and Kimmage) - Templogue -Tallaght route makes the most sense for a southern extension. Rathmines misses out, but it's still very close to the Luas and walking distance from Harolds cross.

I'm not so sure, population density is much lower west of Harold's Cross - cemeteries, institutional land, etc.

monument

Victor wrote: »

'Metro' is merely an idea. Service-wise, it will be very similar to the existing Luas Green Line, with the main difference being that it will be underground for half it's distance. It may even be called Luas.

And trams that are something like twice as long?

aindriu80

The higher frequency, higher capacity, uninterrupted separated lines, 100% underground and designed for city wide (**in mind) is what Metro should be. LUAS is not that far off METRO but there are some fundamental differences, I wouldn't like them to bring in Metro light.

markpb

Luas is a brand, not a technical description. Metro is a concept, not a set of requirements. RPA said that Metro North would use trams which are similar to, but longer than, the ones in use on the green and red lines today.

AngryLips

Sorry but Metro will be completely different to Luas and is, in effect, a totally different solution insofar as Metro rolling stock will not be able to utilise most of the existing Luas infrastructure. It will be a third rail system for Dublin when we haven't even fully committed to the existing two that we have.

Aard

AngryLips wrote: »

Sorry but Metro will be completely different to Luas and is, in effect, a totally different solution insofar as Metro rolling stock will not be able to utilise most of the existing Luas infrastructure. It will be a third rail system for Dublin when we haven't even fully committed to the existing two that we have.

I thought Metro will basically be the exact same as Luas except with longer trains and wider track spacing. I don't think it's fair to describe it as totally different.

Carawaystick

AngryLips wrote: »

Sorry but Metro will be completely different to Luas and is, in effect, a totally different solution insofar as Metro rolling stock will not be able to utilise most of the existing Luas infrastructure. It will be a third rail system for Dublin when we haven't even fully committed to the existing two that we have.

Third rail systems are illegal in Ireland, was mentioned in the abp hearings re Bordeaux style system in college green

strassenwo!f

Jack Noble wrote: »

The upgrade of the Green Line to Metro is in the NTA's plans and is part of the 2030 Vision strategy published in 2011. That plans Metro services from
Swords to Bray, Tallaght to Cherrywood and Tallaght to Swords.

Of course, a metro from to Tallaght to Swords via SSG and Kimmage was in Platform for Change from 2001. In 2030 Vision that's planned as a Luas line to Broombridge via SSG - and may even be downgraded further to BRT.

Here's the map contained in 2030Vision - the draft strategy is on the NTA website.



Of course, like PFC before it, by the time the next Dublin transportation strategy is revealed in, say, 2021, it will probably be different again and we'll still be talking about when the Metro and Dart projects may start!

After all the broken promises by the likes of Noel Dempsey, it's going to be hard to persuade people that there's ever really going to be a commuter line to Navan.

It's also hard to see why this proposed line is going to terminate in the Docklands station. There's going to be a lot of extra capacity at Connolly when the interconnector (shown) is built, so why not use it?

The deep thinkers behind this 2030 vision might like to explain what change is going to occur which will make people in 2030 want to use the Docklands station when they clearly don't want to use it in 2013, especially if there is another option available.

aindriu80

Carawaystick wrote: »

Third rail systems are illegal in Ireland, was mentioned in the abp hearings re Bordeaux style system in college green

The loop line is such a half effort. Intercity trains should logically stop at 3 train stations in Dublin full stop and scratch the rest of the in between rail unless to run intercity trains straight through Dublin.

Then the city should be Luas/Metro. Of course that would cost money but it could be built.

AngryLips wrote: »

Sorry but Metro will be completely different to Luas and is, in effect, a totally different solution insofar as Metro rolling stock will not be able to utilise most of the existing Luas infrastructure. It will be a third rail system for Dublin when we haven't even fully committed to the existing two that we have.

Its pretty clear that LUAS is cheaper cousin of METRO and can't really operate alongside Metro. I don't exactly know what LUAS is supposed to do at times but obviously has helped Dublin an awful lot.

strassenwo!f

I'd also like to add to my above comments about the proposed Navan line in this "2030 Vision" that, with a 17-19 year lead in before this vision becomes reality, it is odd that no interchange is envisaged between the proposed line and either the LUAS red line or with mainline rail (apart from Sligo).

And it requires two changes to get to and from important locations like Heuston station and Harcourt Street. Not good.

There's lots of other stuff on that map which can be questioned, but the above is an example of queries which will and should be asked about this "2030vision".

In my opinion, it's a pretty half-assed, back-of-the-envelope vision.

Victor

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'd also like to add to my above comments about the proposed Navan line in this "2030 Vision" that, with a 17-19 year lead in before this vision becomes reality, it is odd that no interchange is envisaged between the proposed line and either the LUAS red line or with mainline rail (apart from Sligo).

And it requires two changes to get to and from important locations like Heuston station and Harcourt Street. Not good.

What line are you referring to?

monument

aindriu80 wrote: »

The higher frequency, higher capacity, uninterrupted separated lines, 100% underground and designed for city wide (**in mind) is what Metro should be. LUAS is not that far off METRO but there are some fundamental differences, I wouldn't like them to bring in Metro light.

Metro was never planned to be 100% underground. There's no need for it to be fully underground.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

After all the broken promises by the likes of Noel Dempsey, it's going to be hard to persuade people that there's ever really going to be a commuter line to Navan.

As long as the Co Co does, does it really matter what others think?

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It's also hard to see why this proposed line is going to terminate in the Docklands station. There's going to be a lot of extra capacity at Connolly when the interconnector (shown) is built, so why not use it?

Because the capacity will be used by upgraded Dart (north-west to south-east)?

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The deep thinkers behind this 2030 vision might like to explain what change is going to occur which will make people in 2030 want to use the Docklands station when they clearly don't want to use it in 2013, especially if there is another option available.

The highest capacity Dart line will have a station there? Plus Luas, DublinBikes and more office development in the area? Because Luas at Broombridge will allow for another connection to the city centre?

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'd also like to add to my above comments about the proposed Navan line in this "2030 Vision" that, with a 17-19 year lead in before this vision becomes reality, it is odd that no interchange is envisaged between the proposed line and either the LUAS red line or with mainline rail (apart from Sligo).

And it requires two changes to get to and from important locations like Heuston station and Harcourt Street. Not good.

There's lots of other stuff on that map which can be questioned, but the above is an example of queries which will and should be asked about this "2030vision".

In my opinion, it's a pretty half-assed, back-of-the-envelope vision.

Are you talking about the Navan line?

Direct interchange with the red line so only one change to Heuston, and a direct connection with the green line, so also only one change to Harcourt Street.

strassenwo!f

Victor wrote: »

What line are you referring to?

I'm referring to the light blue line in the above map, the one which is called "Commuter - Navan to Docklands"

strassenwo!f

monument wrote: »

As long as the Co Co does, does it really matter what others think?

Well, I would think it does. For a project like that to happen, it would probably need central government funding. And even with the tiger era combination of vocal Navan commuters, a Meath minister and the country wallowing in money, that funding was not there.

monument wrote: »

Because the capacity will be used by upgraded Dart (north-west to south-east)?

No, it won't. They are currently upgrading the signalling to allow 16 trains per hour across the loopline bridge. Nobody, as far as I'm aware, has suggested that there will be 16 trains per hour on the Grand Canal Dock-Broombridge section of track once the interconnector is built, and even if they have suggested it the demand is simply not there for such as service. There will be buckets of capacity at Connolly.

monument wrote: »

The highest capacity Dart line will have a station there? Plus Luas, DublinBikes and more office development in the area? Because Luas at Broombridge will allow for another connection to the city centre?

Where? The proposed underground docklands station is not very near to the current overground one. According to the "vision"(:mad:), the Navan trains are going into the current one. This is not as popular as Connolly, and there's no reason to believe that that's going to change much over the next 17 years.

monument wrote: »

Are you talking about the Navan line?

Yes. Sorry if this was unclear.

monument wrote: »

Direct interchange with the red line so only one change to Heuston, and a direct connection with the green line, so also only one change to Harcourt Street.

Where is the direct connection with the red line? The red line goes nowhere near the current docklands station, the place to which Navan commuters can aspire to travel, 17 years hence, under the NTA's crayon "vision".

And there may be one change to Harcourt Street, but the "vision" has the new Broombridge LUAS being extended south to Tallaght and the current green line being upgraded to metro, so no guarantee that it will be one change.

ringostare

strassenwo!f wrote: »

After all the broken promises by the likes of Noel Dempsey, it's going to be hard to persuade people that there's ever really going to be a commuter line to Navan.

It's also hard to see why this proposed line is going to terminate in the Docklands station. There's going to be a lot of extra capacity at Connolly when the interconnector (shown) is built, so why not use it?

The deep thinkers behind this 2030 vision might like to explain what change is going to occur which will make people in 2030 want to use the Docklands station when they clearly don't want to use it in 2013, especially if there is another option available.

You could try a little deep thinking of your own before you make a total eejit of yourself. Firstly the docklands station will interchange with the IC so you're better off there than in Connolly. 2nd the Navan spur will be electified so Navan trains will go on to Hazelhatch.

lucernarian

ringostare wrote: »

You could try a little deep thinking of your own before you make a total eejit of yourself. Firstly the docklands station will interchange with the IC so you're better off there than in Connolly. 2nd the Navan spur will be electified so Navan trains will go on to Hazelhatch.

Likewise! You ought to look at the map above. :rolleyes:

The Docklands station marked for the Navan Commuter services is a standalone station with no other connections. There is a separate "Docklands" station marked which provides a station as part of DART Underground.

Victor

ringostare wrote: »

You could try a little deep thinking of your own before you make a total eejit of yourself.

Welcome to boards.ie, calling people names is frowned upon.

Moderator

ringostare

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Likewise! You ought to look at the map above. :rolleyes:

The Docklands station marked for the Navan Commuter services is a standalone station with no other connections. There is a separate "Docklands" station marked which provides a station as part of DART Underground.

And that children is why they say: "There's a new one born every minute....."
It's less than 5 mins walk away. Not unusual in city transport systems. The walk from the DORT platform in Connolly to get outside the station is longer and still leaves a longish walk to OCS for example. From Docklands you can easily get on the IC which will interchange at Pearse St station with the other DORT line and SSG with MN.

TheLB

ringostare wrote: »

And that children is why they say: "There's a new one born every minute....."
It's less than 5 mins walk away. Not unusual in city transport systems. The walk from the DORT platform in Connolly to get outside the station is longer and still leaves a longish walk to OCS for example. From Docklands you can easily get on the IC which will interchange at Pearse St station with the other DORT line and SSG with MN.

**Crayon Alert**

They should convert the Maynooth line to light-rail rolling stock (not the gauge), and then extend the line from the Docklands Station across the James Joyce bridge (it's built for light rail) and up the quays to Marlborough St. You would then free up Connolly Station for increased N-S Dart traffic and the Maynooth line would terminate at a better location in the city centre.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Well, I would think it does. For a project like that to happen, it would probably need central government funding. And even with the tiger era combination of vocal Navan commuters, a Meath minister and the country wallowing in money, that funding was not there.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

No, it won't. They are currently upgrading the signalling to allow 16 trains per hour across the loopline bridge. Nobody, as far as I'm aware, has suggested that there will be 16 trains per hour on the Grand Canal Dock-Broombridge section of track once the interconnector is built, and even if they have suggested it the demand is simply not there for such as service. There will be buckets of capacity at Connolly.

A lot of those buckets could be eatten up by Dart, Commuter and Intercity services.

There's loads of demand from D15 and beyond and that is growing already, and demand will grow from the south city and beyond too.

2030 aims to get a larger percentage mid-long distance commuters off roads and onto rail, freeing up roads for larger amounts of short-mid distance commuters.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Where? The proposed underground docklands station is not very near to the current overground one. According to the "vision"(:mad:), the Navan trains are going into the current one. This is not as popular as Connolly, and there's no reason to believe that that's going to change much over the next 17 years.

Around, what, 200 meters from door to door? And at most an access road to cross?

That is direct in public transport terms.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Where is the direct connection with the red line? The red line goes nowhere near the current docklands station, the place to which Navan commuters can aspire to travel, 17 years hence, under the NTA's crayon "vision".

And there may be one change to Harcourt Street, but the "vision" has the new Broombridge LUAS being extended south to Tallaght and the current green line being upgraded to metro, so no guarantee that it will be one change.

The closest redline stop is also around 200 meters or less from Docklands Station, that's direct.

As for Harcourt Street: Broombridge. Yes.

Even if the map did indicate a turn off before Harcourt Street (which it does not, at least not clearly so), it's at most a 10min walk from the green which is inside the acceptable catchment area for Luas.

FreudianSlippers

Carawaystick wrote: »

Third rail systems are illegal in Ireland, was mentioned in the abp hearings re Bordeaux style system in college green

Illegal is a pretty strong word. Do you know the legislation? Not doubting you, just wondering about the rationale.

cgcsb

thisisadamh wrote: »

Why do we have 3 different rail systems. Metro, DART and Luas. There should be two at most. Luas for light rail, and DART for Metro/Heavy Rail. Having 3 just complicates things and means that there is less flexibility with routes and rolling stock because metro trains cant run on dart lines and visa versa.

That is what's happening, metro will be essentially the same as luas with slightly wider trams, luas trams will be able to service metro routes. The difference is in the branding.

thisisadamh wrote: »

In my opinion Dart underground should be build as planned with an additional branch coming off just after Pearse and then going North towards upper O'Connell street through an underground platform Connolly Station and then follow the planned metro north alignment towards swords. This way a Airport/Swords service can start from Heuston through, St Stephens Green, Pearse, Connolly, all stations to airport and swords. This would allow intercity passengers to hop on a DART to the airport after disembarking from their intercity train. No having to make 2 changes on two different rail systems: dart then metro north/luas then metro north. Its too much hassle for people to change twice going to the airport with heavy bags. They will just get the bus otherwise. One change from intercity to airport is ideal.

This way rolling stock can be interchanged. There can be special services: Cork to Airport. But this can only happen if it is all DART.

The DARt underground tunnel can only accommodate electric trains.

TheBandicoot

I don't see what the problem is with the Docklands station. The existing overground station that will be used for Navan commuter, the existing Luas Red line stop and the proposed DU Docklands station entrances are all very close to each other. The walk between them is very peaceful, there is a path north/south along the canal bank directly accessed from the overground Docklands via an underpass(no need to cross Sherriff St) and then a short trip along the Luas tracks to the Luas stop, which is directly next to the proposed DU station. Very little road traffic. Hundreds of people make this walk or similiar every morning coming off the Docklands trains(which by the way, have plenty of demand, standing room only after Coolmine).