Metro North and Dart Underground costs revealed

strassenwo!f

monument wrote: »

That's mad Ted.

One problem. Dart Underground would be an upgrade of all Dublin routes.

That's the point, Dougal.

If DU is not built, we are left with the current situation, in which by far the best rail connections to the city are on the southside of Dublin: unlike the northside DART the southside one is pretty uncluttered by intercity or arrow trains, and the green LUAS - unlike the red one - is largely not hampered by on-street traffic.

A considerably comparative advantage for those people who live in those southside areas, relative to other areas of the city.

This comparative advantage would be largely removed if the DU project were to be built.

Thus, as I said, there may be no great hurry on the part of many of the decision-makers to do away with this comparative advantage, at least before their kids have had a chance to benefit from it.

AngryLips

strassenwo!f wrote: »

A considerably comparative advantage for those people who live in those southside areas, relative to other areas of the city.

This comparative advantage would be largely removed if the DU project were to be built.

Thus, as I said, there may be no great hurry on the part of many of the decision-makers to do away with this comparative advantage, at least before their kids have had a chance to benefit from it.

Paranoid much?

Victor

Major investment in the railways, Luas BXD aside, is off the agenda due to the financial situation. RUI doesn't control that. Surely it is better to focus on initiatives that are progressing?

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But earlier on, ome years ago, most of us on this board were treated to an almost continuous stream of detail about the interconnector from RUI, or as it then was, P11.

This stream died, a while back.

The then RUI/P11 committee decided to stop official interaction here on boards.ie as some of those interactions weren't constructive.

Perhaps because the main beneficiaries of the interconnctor not happening would be the Dublin-based people, the Southsiders, on the RUI committee.

I think the implication here is a bit misguided.

Either way, on the biggest infrastructure project ever to be planned to take place in the Dublin area, RUI are effectively silent on the biggest board in the countryl

But not silent in other places.

Nothing, of course, to do with the fact, that their Dublin-based officers are based along the DART line.

Care to name them?

ardmacha

So these decision makers use the DART eh? Imagine allowing public transport users get involved in this kind of thing.

strassenwo!f

Victor wrote: »

Major investment in the railways, Luas BXD aside, is off the agenda due to the financial situation. RUI doesn't control that. Surely it is better to focus on initiatives that are progressing?

The then RUI/P11 committee decided to stop official interaction here on boards.ie as some of those interactions weren't constructive.

I think the implication here is a bit misguided.

But not silent in other places.

Care to name them?

Victor, I unreservedly apologise for my comments above about Rail Users Ireland. The comments were unkind, unhelpful and most probably unfair. The post should not have been written.

[Jackass]

I notice the platforms have finished at Pearse Station with the "underground" escolators etc.

I haven't been down to them, but were these in preparations for DART underground?

Is there still any possability of it going ahead? Or a underground rail link to Heuston Station?

Any planned rail link to the airport?

cgcsb

[Jackass] wrote: »

I notice the platforms have finished at Pearse Station with the "underground" escolators etc.

I haven't been down to them, but were these in preparations for DART underground?

Is there still any possability of it going ahead? Or a underground rail link to Heuston Station?

Any planned rail link to the airport?

metro north and DART underground are still planned to go ahead with an uncertain timeframe. In my opinion, there will be an announcement on both in time for the next election. We'll probably see DART underground before metro north.

AngryLips

cgcsb wrote: »

In my opinion, there will be an announcement on both in time for the next election. We'll probably see DART underground before metro north.

An announcement for political points or actual intent to deliver?

FreudianSlippers

AngryLips wrote: »

An announcement for political points or actual intent to deliver?

That kind of announcement wouldn't have much political power outside the M50, as the vast majority of people still have no understanding of capital markets, government spending/funding or the concept that ya' got to (responsibly) speculate to accumulate!

cgcsb

AngryLips wrote: »

An announcement for political points or actual intent to deliver?

EIther just for poiltical points or for both politics AND intent to deliver, but certainly not the latter alone.

Sierra Oscar

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That kind of announcement wouldn't have much political power outside the M50, as the vast majority of people still have no understanding of capital markets, government spending/funding or the concept that ya' got to (responsibly) speculate to accumulate!

Over half of all Labour party TD's alone are in Dublin, which rises more when you take into account the GDA.

They will push for it as a stimulus programme. Whether they will be successful or not is a different story altogether!

[Jackass]

Does anyone think we'll see an (all be it tiny) Dublin Subway system and / or a simple rail link from city centre to Dublin airport within our life time?

Peregrine

[Jackass] wrote: »

Does anyone think we'll see an (all be it tiny) Dublin Subway system and / or a simple rail link from city centre to Dublin airport within our life time?

Dunno about you but I still got a good 65 years left in me so yes definitely :pac:

DU and MN could be finished in the decade after Luas BXD

cgcsb

[Jackass] wrote: »

Does anyone think we'll see an (all be it tiny) Dublin Subway system and / or a simple rail link from city centre to Dublin airport within our life time?

Of course, the reality is that few cities in the developed world reach the size and density of Dublin without reliable mass transit. Without reliable public transport, Dublin will just cease growing.

TheBandicoot

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/phoenix-park-tunnel-may-reopen-to-passenger-trains-29434757.html

The government continues to put these much needed projects on the back burner in favour of stopgap solutions. The lack of vision is criminal.

Grandeeod

Nothing wrong with this idea. Should have been done years ago. Hopefully they will stick a few stations along it too. It was a waste of existing infrastructure.

D.L.R.

TheBandicoot wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/phoenix-park-tunnel-may-reopen-to-passenger-trains-29434757.html

The government continues to put these much needed projects on the back burner in favour of stopgap solutions. The lack of vision is criminal.

I share your frustration on the underground lines, but leaving this useful line closed in the meantime would also be foolish. Dublin is starved of capacity for commuters and we really need to unlock it where possible.

This line would help to relieve the Red Line and bus routes along the Quays, and you can't underestimate a direct rail connection beetween Connolly and Heuston. Not even Dart Underground offers that.

cgcsb

I can't see what the point is. The luas connects the two stations in 15 minutes, the route between heuston and connolly via PPT is much longer. Granted the train would be faster than a tram, but I don't think there'd be an improvement to journey time. I can see almost all commuters still opting to change at heuston for luas and bus services.

Grandeeod

cgcsb wrote: »

I can't see what the point is. The luas connects the two stations in 15 minutes, the route between heuston and connolly via PPT is much longer. Granted the train would be faster than a tram, but I don't think there'd be an improvement to journey time. I can see almost all commuters still opting to change at heuston for luas and bus services.

The luas connects the stations in 15 minutes, but factor in the additional time that it takes (for example) to walk from Platform 1 in Heuston and then from the Connolly luas stop to the DART platforms. Indeed some commuters will opt to alight at Heuston and take the bus or luas to their destination, if that suits. But if you work near Connolly, Tara st, Pearse or GCD, then staying on the train is a better option. Furthermore I don't think its fair to comment on the PPT journey time until we see what the NTA are proposing. Increasing the line speed is vital for this to work. A figure of 12 million has been mentioned and considering that not a lot really needs to be done, one would hope the figure includes renewing the line to enable a higher speed.

Grandeeod

TheBandicoot wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/phoenix-park-tunnel-may-reopen-to-passenger-trains-29434757.html

The government continues to put these much needed projects on the back burner in favour of stopgap solutions. The lack of vision is criminal.

You need to be realistic. This is not a stop gap solution. It should have been done years ago. With an increased line speed additional stops on the PPT route are possible, thereby providing a rail solution to heavily populated areas along its route. As for DU, there's no money for it right now, unless you have an alternative viewpoint and think there is?

AngryLips

It would allow commuter services to route through to the southside dart line, hopefully they'll implement such services

cabrasnake

Utter gibberish. Who's calling for the PPT to be opened for commuter trains?
Not any Dubs familiar with the locality.
Incredible that this old chestnut comes up again and again.
Why would anybody on the Kildare line want to go on a magical mystery tour of de nortside inner city to end up in Connolly not that much closer to OCS than Heuston. Which no commuter wants to go to anyway?
The Luas will take you quickly into OCS.

As for stations along the way. Ridiculous. The only really viable location is the Navan Rd/Nth Circular Rd. And why would anybody head to such a station when the frequency of trains could be at least 30 mins off peak, all taking you to the wonderful Mecca of Connolly almost as far a walk to OCS as the Navan Rd station itself. There are plenty of buses from that locality that will have you in OCS in 5-10 minutes.
And as a bonus after your long wait and exile to Connolly station, you will pay a higher fare than on the bus.

If anybody is wondering why we have such a disjointed commuter railway infrastructure they need not go further than the hare brained analysis of the pundits on boreds.ie

Sam Russell

TheBandicoot wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/phoenix-park-tunnel-may-reopen-to-passenger-trains-29434757.html

The government continues to put these much needed projects on the back burner in favour of stopgap solutions. The lack of vision is criminal.

Looking at the Indo article, it states that only 12 trains perhour go through Connolly.

Is it true that only 12 trains per hour can pass through Connolly? Eight darts go through each hour, that leaves just four trains per hour. Surely that cannot be right? Did they not put a third rail north of Connolly to improve this?

cabrasnake

got nothing to do with 3rd rails. The bottleneck is the loop line bridge. When the signalling upgrade is done the capacity will be upped to 18 per hour iirc.

Sam Russell

cabrasnake wrote: »

got nothing to do with 3rd rails. The bottleneck is the loop line bridge. When the signalling upgrade is done the capacity will be upped to 18 per hour iirc.

Does that mean the limit only applies to traffic between Connolly and Pearse?

cabrasnake

mostly. but there's supressed demand on the northern commuter line which will take up a lot of the slack when the signalling upgrade is done.

Victor

Sam Russell wrote: »

Looking at the Indo article, it states that only 12 trains perhour go through Connolly.

Is it true that only 12 trains per hour can pass through Connolly? Eight darts go through each hour, that leaves just four trains per hour. Surely that cannot be right? Did they not put a third rail north of Connolly to improve this?

The numbers are per direction. and doesn't count southbound trains terminating in Connolly, e.g. Enterprise. Aside from signalling, the critical factors are that there are only two tracks in several locations, e.g. the Loop Line Bridge and just south of the Tolka bridge. http://binged.it/164fhDi

lucernarian

cabrasnake wrote: »

Utter gibberish. Who's calling for the PPT to be opened for commuter trains?
Not any Dubs familiar with the locality.
Incredible that this old chestnut comes up again and again.
Why would anybody on the Kildare line want to go on a magical mystery tour of de nortside inner city to end up in Connolly not that much closer to OCS than Heuston. Which no commuter wants to go to anyway?
The Luas will take you quickly into OCS.

As for stations along the way. Ridiculous. The only really viable location is the Navan Rd/Nth Circular Rd. And why would anybody head to such a station when the frequency of trains could be at least 30 mins off peak, all taking you to the wonderful Mecca of Connolly almost as far a walk to OCS as the Navan Rd station itself. There are plenty of buses from that locality that will have you in OCS in 5-10 minutes.
And as a bonus after your long wait and exile to Connolly station, you will pay a higher fare than on the bus.

If anybody is wondering why we have such a disjointed commuter railway infrastructure they need not go further than the hare brained analysis of the pundits on boreds.ie

In fairness I probably would use such a station, given that O'Connell St. is much closer to Connolly than Heuston. 8 minutes walk to it is not bad. And with signal upgrade, through trains to Pearse would be possible? With the amount of times I now find 46As cancelled or lengthy gaps in service on the Cabra road, I'd be willing to take something that operates to a much more reliable timetable. No one who actually lives in the area would say it takes even ten minutes to get to OCS on a bus never mind 5 minutes.

cabrasnake

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

In fairness I probably would use such a station, given that O'Connell St. is much closer to Connolly than Heuston. 8 minutes walk to it is not bad. And with signal upgrade, through trains to Pearse would be possible? With the amount of times I now find 46As cancelled or lengthy gaps in service on the Cabra road, I'd be willing to take something that operates to a much more reliable timetable. No one who actually lives in the area would say it takes even ten minutes to get to OCS on a bus never mind 5 minutes.

You don't seem very familiar with the area. I travel there everyday. The 46A doesn't go down the Cabra Rd or through Cabra.
From that I deduce you're spoofing, probably a train fan who'd travel the Western Rail Corridor everyday if living there. Aside of the 46A which actually goes down the NCR you have the 121, 122, 38 and 38A on the Cabra Rd. At off peak times - your 30 min wait for a PPT train times - those buses only take 5-10 mins to get to OCS.

lucernarian

It was a mistake, I meant to say the North Circular. I live near enough the railway in question, so my interest in such a station is rather parochial