John McGuinness €250,000 spend on office revamp

Sully

THE chairman of the powerful Dail spending watchdog has been described as "irresponsible" after it emerged €250,000 was spent kitting out a new office for him when he was a junior minister.

Public Accounts Committee (PAC) chairman John McGuinness has been told he has "serious questions" to answer after the Irish Independent revealed the office costs.

More than €250,000 of taxpayers' money was spent kitting out an office for Mr McGuinness, a Fianna Fail TD for Carlow-Kilkenny, after he was made junior minster in the Department of Enterprise by Bertie Ahern in 2007.

....

Full Story: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/watchdog-chief-under-fire-for-250000-spend-on-office-revamp-29170420.html

John is a fairly popular character in Kilkenny and is a lively enough individual from what I read and see about him, as Carlow-Kilkenny TD. Has plenty of choice words about spending, thus his position as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) which oversees public spending and ensures its all in order. Micheal Martin, Fianna Fail leader, appointed him to the top spot overlooking spending and keeping everyone in check(!).

So I laughed to read that John himself was associated with lavish spending - €50,000 go towards a personal "shower room" in his office, €2,300 on a "vanity unit", and over 35k on chairs and desks for his office.

WIT had a similar spending pattern with the former presidents office and it was the OPW that investigated it and slammed all the spending. So its funny to see that the OPW Chair was a man of the same luxuries.

I would hope, though I can't say I believe it is, that this type of crazy Fianna Fail spending that lead the country to the dire financial straits it faces itself in today is a thing of the past. Lessons learned etc. But until the Irish people make their TDs accountable, whether it be Kilkenny, Carlow, Waterford, Wexford or even Tipperary - anywhere - the systematic abuse of the public purse and position will never end.

I don't know much about what John has done for Kilkenny, and I know that Kilkenny has a rough time with politics at the moment with Phil Hogan being public enemy no.1 and most hated man in Waterford. Poor all John Paul Phelan seems to be the angel in the background

Its an interesting discussion for the electorate to see how their TDs are performing nationally and to a certain degree, locally and perhaps we all need to be more educated as to their performances?

Cabaal

Curious, how big is this office exactly?

I mean, even in the boom you could buy a entire house and kit it out for 250k!
Does his office include a separate massive conference room that it costs 35k in chairs?

As for 50k on a shower room, I've seen some fancy showerrooms in my time and that includes one in a 2million euro home and I'm pretty sure that although that had Italian marble it still didn't cost 50k just for that room.

Thing that gets me is you could bet good money that had SF, Labour or FG been in power during the "boom times" that they some of their TD's would have also spent silly money because they would have seen it as ok.

foxcoverteddy

Firstly poor Phil is not our No1 enemy, grief he dug the first sod at the new A&E in St Lukes, without him where would we be, and yes he made a balls up of the household tax, though I suspect it was a civil servant as Phil would not have been capable of doing the whole thing by himself.
One suspects there is more to the man than the comic character he is made out to be.
Now john, one must presume his home is decorated to the same cost and style, so he wanted his office to reflect his home, naturally.
As for doing anything for us, a lot of hot air, the Callan road being a prime example, if you don't know the Callan road, well it is a prime candidate for up-grading, it has been for the last twenty odd years, despite john blowing hot for something to be done, the truth it hasn't happened, and he was a junior minister with the power to spend on such luxuries for himself, which we paid for, nice one John.
In Britain I believe, though it might be hearsay that some ministers found it hard to seperate their homes from their offices and some of the costs were carried over, I have heard but it may not be true.
Has anyone done an audit and checked the cost of each item to make sure they cost what they were reputed to cost.
We need someone to publish an itemised account of the expenditure as we might be saying or suggesting things which are not true and our John could be whiter than white.
Before making comments we need to see what cost what, like who supplied the shower and the chairs, was john ripped off by someone, we should for john's sake demand an investigation this matter, it is too important to let go.
Obviously who started this must proceed, there could be some degree of criminality, so tread with care.

foxcoverteddy

How long has it taken for john's office expenditure to come out in the open?
Think about it for a moment or two, is there someone trying to discredit our TD's, John and Phil.
You may not agree with their political aims, you don't have to, they are both doing a job, yes well paid etc , but nonetheless they work for us however it seems first Phil is hit and now John.
Personally I cannot believe the Household tax was down to Phil, okay he was the minister so yes he has to take the rap, but bet there was some nameless characters behind the scheme, who might have had, no we can't suggest that.
Now John's office, he is a very normal guy, I again suspect he has no idea of granduer as depicted by the article, think about it where does one go to buy such elaborate things, who supplies them, again are there namel;ess people behind all of this, where would John have got the time and the expertise to oversee the furntiure and the shower.
Yes of course both our lads will be in the firing line for criticism, that is what politics is about, some might be true others trumped up for effect.
But what is depressing both are our TD's and it seems there is someone deliberately targetting them for reasons unknown, maybe it is this county thing.
I mean St Lukes up-grade is long overdue, then there is the money for the High Street, perhaps people are thinking what else is kilkenny going to get, probably not Tesco, but that is another story.
I think we have to show some support for both Phil and john irrespective of party politics, come on kilkenny rally round the two lads after all we voted them in./

Sully

It gets worse...

THE chairman of the powerful Dail public spending watchdog was only allowed to use luxury toilet rolls in the bathroom of his €250,000 office when he was a junior minister.

Documents released under the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act show staff were advised to use only higher grade roll because of the toilet system installed in the office made for John McGuinness in 2007.

Source: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/luxury-toilet-paper-only-in-ministers-250k-office-29173269.html

Also talk about arm chair adjustments.

Its just cringe. Complete cringe.

foxcoverteddy

Personally we favour the London Times, it is very biodegradable, and it costs more than the Irish Sun, the print doesn't seem to come off so easily.
Yes it is a bit cringy but to be honest Kittensoft and the like are run of the mill paper, okay M&S do a dearer one with very pretty designs.
We need more info who signed off what etc, we know John to be a fine upstanding politician, and it looks like someone is trying to set him up.
We wait to see.

Cabaal

Do these TD's not stop for one moment and think "hang on this is kind of silly, what if somebody does a FOI request and see's that I've made this request"?

Ok, clearly not, they likely just go and think sure they might as well spend it because they have access to it and it won't affect them as they'll never have to pay it back....and of course they won't

Triangla

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

I mean St Lukes up-grade is long overdue, then there is the money for the High Street, perhaps people are thinking what else is kilkenny going to get, probably not Tesco, but that is another story.
I think we have to show some support for both Phil and john irrespective of party politics, come on kilkenny rally round the two lads after all we voted them in./

It's a report on money spent upgrading his office.

It's €250,000.00 which is a lot of cash for an office.

You could buy a house for this.

You could buy a few houses in certain areas of the country where the people who paid for this work live.

As a taxpayer who is not a member of a political party yes I would like to see the cost examined to ensure that public money is being spent in a responsible manner.

If you are happy to let a politician do what they like simply because you voted them in please do not presume that others are happy to follow suit.

If there was no expensive upgrade, there would be no story.

Sully

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Personally we favour the London Times, it is very biodegradable, and it costs more than the Irish Sun, the print doesn't seem to come off so easily.
Yes it is a bit cringy but to be honest Kittensoft and the like are run of the mill paper, okay M&S do a dearer one with very pretty designs.
We need more info who signed off what etc, we know John to be a fine upstanding politician, and it looks like someone is trying to set him up.
We wait to see.

He appears to have signed off on it and made the request for the various changes, toilet paper and so on. It says so in the article..

foxcoverteddy

Triangla, quite agree, it is not always what is written sometimes you have to read between the lines, we obviously have got to take this one to the ultimate conclusion, who was responsible?
Though john is innocent until the preverbial and as such we would try to ensure no one sets him up, it took a long time to come out and a lot of people knew what was happening.
Should we now investigate other things undertaken by people we put in power to run or was it rob the country.
This is going to need a lot of support.

Sully

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Triangla, quite agree, it is not always what is written sometimes you have to read between the lines, we obviously have got to take this one to the ultimate conclusion, who was responsible?
Though john is innocent until the preverbial and as such we would try to ensure no one sets him up, it took a long time to come out and a lot of people knew what was happening.
Should we now investigate other things undertaken by people we put in power to run or was it rob the country.
This is going to need a lot of support.

Who was responsible? John partly at least. He didn't object for a start and it appears he approved the plans..

Documents released under Freedom of Information show that Mr McGuinness "was satisfied with the revised plans".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/watchdog-chief-under-fire-for-250000-spend-on-office-revamp-29170420.html

Triangla

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

Triangla, quite agree, it is not always what is written sometimes you have to read between the lines, we obviously have got to take this one to the ultimate conclusion, who was responsible?
Though john is innocent until the preverbial and as such we would try to ensure no one sets him up, it took a long time to come out and a lot of people knew what was happening.
Should we now investigate other things undertaken by people we put in power to run or was it rob the country.
This is going to need a lot of support.

If John McGuinness signed off on it - is he responsible?

I disagree, sometimes you need to read what is written then investigate further to see what the facts are. This is what I think most people want.

Reading between the lines - please let me know what your opinions are with regard to what you see between the lines?

John is innocent of what until the proverbial? What is the proverbial you are referring to?

The argument of investigating everything before we investigate something that is now topical is in my opinion hiding in the long grass. Is this what you mean?

All decisions any one makes in their job is up for scrutiny. Especially politicians and especially now. This is because taxes are constantly going up and wasteful spending in this environment is a big no no.

What are you saying is going to need a lot of support?

garhjw

Note that the work was carried out by the OPW which would be 1 of the worst government departments interns of incompetence. The work would probably have cost less than half had it been carried out by competent professionals

road_high

I think when you take the moral high ground constantly as John has done with this and even his own govts you set your self up for a fall. Big time in this case. The toilet roll stuff was absolute cringe as other posters have said. I'm sure it's even worse for him reading it. Stuff like this hugely damaging to credibility when you preach about waste in public spending.

road_high

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

How long has it taken for john's office expenditure to come out in the open?
Think about it for a moment or two, is there someone trying to discredit our TD's, John and Phil.
You may not agree with their political aims, you don't have to, they are both doing a job, yes well paid etc , but nonetheless they work for us however it seems first Phil is hit and now John.
Personally I cannot believe the Household tax was down to Phil, okay he was the minister so yes he has to take the rap, but bet there was some nameless characters behind the scheme, who might have had, no we can't suggest that.
Now John's office, he is a very normal guy, I again suspect he has no idea of granduer as depicted by the article, think about it where does one go to buy such elaborate things, who supplies them, again are there namel;ess people behind all of this, where would John have got the time and the expertise to oversee the furntiure and the shower.
Yes of course both our lads will be in the firing line for criticism, that is what politics is about, some might be true others trumped up for effect.
But what is depressing both are our TD's and it seems there is someone deliberately targetting them for reasons unknown, maybe it is this county thing.
I mean St Lukes up-grade is long overdue, then there is the money for the High Street, perhaps people are thinking what else is kilkenny going to get, probably not Tesco, but that is another story.
I think we have to show some support for both Phil and john irrespective of party politics, come on kilkenny rally round the two lads after all we voted them in./

You couldn't resist could you? A thread with 0 to do with P Hogan but yet you drag him into it and St. Lukes and Tesco just for good measure

road_high

Sully wrote: »

I don't know much about what John has done for Kilkenny, and I know that Kilkenny has a rough time with politics at the moment with Phil Hogan being public enemy no.1 and most hated man in Waterford. Poor all John Paul Phelan seems to be the angel in the background

What has John done for Kilkenny? Not a lot would be the short answer...he was irrelevant in the last govt and held a Junior Ministery for about 5 mins 'til Mary Coughlan sacked him.

Re JP Phelan doesn't do a whole lot really since he got in. Was very active in lambasting the last crowd (easily done) but far less vocal now he's in there.
Another career politician with zero real world experience.
On a side note read this week he was welcoming the prospect of St. Lukes Hosp linked to St. James'!!! Has changed his tune slightly from the rhetoric of a few months back then re WRH.

foxcoverteddy

I understand some of you feel somewhat agrieved at my mention of our Phil in respect to John and the alleged spend of 250.000 on his office. Well until proven to be true facts the man is innocent and it could be a possible attempt to discredit both our TD's, that is why Phil came into the frame.
Phil has done great work for kilkenny in a very short time, I believe he was given the short straw in regards to the household debacle.
It is a necessary evil that had to come, so I am supporting our man.
Now John what did he sign off? Was he aware of the true facts, we all know politics is an underhand and can be a very dirty situation.
Where was the audit aspect of the government, as what is suggested is insane for any minister to sign off.
When I suggested there should be an investigation I believe that no spending should be allowed without an independent audit being conducted.
You only have to look at the british politicians who dipped their noses into the trough, look at the mess we are in where were the independent auditors?
And finally those magic words to any red blooded kilkenny shopper Tesco,
why not throw it in for good measure?
Enjoy regards Foxy

Cabaal

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

I understand some of you feel somewhat agrieved at my mention of our Phil in respect to John and the alleged spend of 250.000 on his office. Well until proven to be true facts the man is innocent and it could be a possible attempt to discredit both our TD's, that is why Phil came into the frame.

Sigh,
Alleged? Alleged???
Seriously?

It is FACT that 250k was spent on the office, unless of course you think the government documents obtained by a freedom of information act from the government are somehow fake or false?

This isn't some nonsense story made up by the daily mail, its based on actual factual documents.

Phil has done great work for kilkenny in a very short time, I believe he was given the short straw in regards to the household debacle.

Stop ranting on about Phil, the story is about John,

Now John what did he sign off? Was he aware of the true facts, we all know politics is an underhand and can be a very dirty situation.

Its his office, he would have signed off on changes to it and as such its his job to look at what was being spent on it. He was of course "satisfied" with the plans.

These are facts.

Where was the audit aspect of the government, as what is suggested is insane for any minister to sign off.

So rather then say John is in the wrong you'd rather say it's somebody else's fault? Ming, is that you by any chance?
:rolleyes:

foxcoverteddy

You surprise me and to a degree disappoint me, we have not heard any word from McGuiness in his defence, if as you say government documents are untainted, then in my opinion the man should resign from public office and step down from the Dail.
However, are we to presume that we are judge and jury my friend, alas no it cannot be, we live in a society that boasts itself as fair and inpartial, we know from experience it is only a dream.
We have TD's other than our own who by rights should have been dismissed from the Dail, they cannot be moved.
It is a priviledge to serve ones country and its people, it would seem that some take it as a means of using that priviledge for their own benefit.
It is time the people said with one voice "Out" to such TD's, the constitution amended to enable such action to be enacted, we have watched the pussying around for too long, why should we pay pensions to former ministers who only helped themselves?
Before marching on we need mcguiness to make a statement, and as you say the facts speak for themselves, but lets make certain, then act.
Regards and thank you Foxy

foxcoverteddy

the Independent have published today a speech made by mcguiness in dec ember 2012, which is on the internet.
It is a very interesting statement and in some respects beggars belief as to the sincerity of it.
How do we the people make sure the elected representatives actually conform to the requirements of the prestigous office of TD let alone minister of state.
It would appear we are being led by the nose by, at this point I am somewhat lost for words.
Foxy

foxcoverteddy

Suddenly the thread goes quiet, no further words are written, has anything else come to light.
An attempt has been made to tear to pieces a man's political career, information has been circulated of possible abuse of public funds.
I think the allegations are extremely serious and damaging to the minister and given the present position of the man, they need to be clarified they are either fact or fiction.
Given who started the thread, I have great regard for both of their opinions and believe they would not deliberately castigate anyone without reasonable proof.
The press we know is more than capable of running smear campaigns, without mentioning any names a visit was made to Doha and just look at what came out of that.
One has to remember the seed has been sown is it to be watered or should it be let to wither away, if it is the later then there has to be a reason.
I have no political affiliations whatsoever and have an inherent dislike for the current political set up and any kind of corruption or misuse of public money should be investigated and dealt with accordingly.

Captain Havoc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60

Sully

Its gone quiet because its become old news and I guess some felt "More of the same from Fianna Fail" (or any government party, to be fair).

The sad thing is, overspending in the public service is no surprise. Government is no different. Just look at the various expenses scandals.

John can say he didn't have any idea of the cost but he should have had an idea when all this fancy furniture, fancy toilet paper, changes to the furniture pre-fitted, etc. were taking place. He saw plans at least and approved those, and either way, never objected. Its not a stitch up - its a fact that his office had huge spending and its ironic considering his position in the Public Accounts Committee. The spending is now being investigated by the very committee he chairs.

Every party has egg on their face when it comes to excessive spending and the Indo makes no exceptions when pointing out the abuse of public funds.

Captain Havoc

It's not the furniture I see the problem with, assuming he got some decent kit, it's the bloody €50k for a shower and the rest. I assume it's more than just an office where you work solely from a desk, it sounds like a few rooms but without paying for the land it's on also, you can't justify €250k.

Sully

Captain Havoc wrote: »

It's not the furniture I see the problem with, assuming he got some decent kit, it's the bloody €50k for a shower and the rest. I assume it's more than just an office where you work solely from a desk, it sounds like a few rooms but without paying for the land it's on also, you can't justify €250k.

Sure the presidents office in WIT is decked out similarly.

Sully

We appear to have lost foxcoverteddy!

foxcoverteddy

No, went to fota, it was cold, windy and it rained, our lad complained there was no lions or tigers and many other things, to make matters worse we got to Cahir to find the roads dry, no sign of rain.
I have been reading the posts and to be honest everyone is being very fair considering,
I think for once making unnecessary comment will not add to this thread, if as you say he was responsible then he must do the honourable thing, though my opinion of the political animal is such they will not have the guts to do so.
I might have something to add later have some more reading to do.
regards foxy

Sully

The Saga isn't over anyway, its been in the paper again and its up for discussion at the Public Accounts Committee.

...


Deputy Gerald Nash has asked the Chair of the OPW Clare McGrath to explain the spending.

Mr Nash said: "How was it then that the State was allowed to finance an analogous office for an analogous minister for state in the Department of Health for €70,000?

"Where for the cost of buying a three-bed semi-detached house in Drogheda for example, we have a very lavish office on Kildare Sdtreet that is really more akin to Wall Street than Kildare Street to be frank."

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/committee-questions-spending-on-very-lavish-mcguinness-office-595304.html

I think there was some other news, unrelated maybe, about spending by John's son or something sometime ago. Ya know, I don't see the purpose of these meetings - whether or not its a resigning matter, he wont be resigning and nothing will be done.

S28382

Politicians are wan*ers why are we surprised at these revelations, nothing will change no matter who promises it will.

up for anything

foxcoverteddy wrote: »

come on kilkenny rally round the two lads after all we voted them in./

Speak for yourself. I had nothing to do with voting either of them in.

Captain Havoc

It would appear he didn't have a say in it as it's the OPW that looks after it. Also the bog roll comes from a central source, so he doesn't have a say in that either.

AMG explains his overtime and there's a video link to JMG questioning about his office with a rather funny questioning on toilet roll towards the end.