Employee late due to weather/traffic - and other things

MyPerfectCousin

Two scenarios where I'm wondering if the employer is liable to pay the hourly part-time employee:

1) They are an hour late due to bad weather impacting public transport/traffic


2) They leave early because of an issue at work that isn't their fault - minor injury, accident, etc.

Are they legally entitled to be paid for those missed hour?

Mr.Fred

I'd have thought no for the first one and yes for the second if they were injured or if prevented from working through no fault of their own.

Peterdalkey

Item 1. probably not depending on their contract of employment. Most decent employers do not make an example of the occasional issue especially in very bad weather.

Item 2. An accident etc at work?!! , paying the hour is the very least of your worries at this point or should

Corkbah

if they are an hourly employee then I cant see how or why they would expect payment for being an hour late themselves (the fact that it was public transport issue is an dispute between the employee and the public transport service)

you could not expect to get paid for work you didn't do, an employees responsibility is to turn up to work on time, if public transport links are bad then the employee must leave sufficient time to get to work.

in the second scenario its a work issue ... if someone is injured and has to goto hospital and this employee is the only one with a car then they should be paid extra for going above and beyond their remit - chances are they would be using their private vehicle to transport another person to hospital and all in work time...they would more than likely stay at the hospital for some time (probably after work hours).

So second issue is work related (not sure if the employer must pay for an employee in this case...but it would be pretty poor form to deduct from wages for helping another employee in an emergency situation)

MyPerfectCousin

Thanks for the feedback. With regard to the weather/transport issue, I'm still looking for the letter of the law on the Citizens Info site just so I know.

smash

Corkbah wrote: »

if public transport links are bad then the employee must leave sufficient time to get to work.

Because when half the roads in the country are closed due to flooding, the employee should be up and leaving their house at 5am :rolleyes:

maxwell smart

Does the employee clock in? If he does then they can only be paid for the time they are clocked in for

Corkbah

smash wrote: »

Because when half the roads in the country are closed due to flooding, the employee should be up and leaving their house at 5am :rolleyes:

so are you trying to say that an employee should get paid for being late to work ?

Uriel.

smash wrote: »

Because when half the roads in the country are closed due to flooding, the employee should be up and leaving their house at 5am :rolleyes:

No not all. However payment for the amount of minutes/hours they are late should be by way of compensation from the transport company, the local authority or god. Maybe joint actions against all?

Why should the employer pay for work not done? Would you expect shops to give you free products as well cos the weather is bad?

Peterdalkey

After more than thirty years running a manufacturing and distribution business employing 13 to 110 and now back to 25, I hope I would never get so petty to the many great people who lash into the work when it is there. If you think management of a business is about this kind of ****e, god help you.

Peter

Trojan

I heard of a situation where a low level employee who had recently started in a company had a shocking bereavement in the family, while travelling on company business.

The business owner chartered a plane to bring the employee home because there were no commercial flights back available for several days.

I, as an outsider and stranger, would happily help that business owner out with anything, any time, because that's the kind of action that inspires loyalty and respect. I can only imagine what that employee's dedication will be to the business in the future.

MyPerfectCousin

Peterdalkey wrote: »

After more than thirty years running a manufacturing and distribution business employing 13 to 110 and now back to 25, I hope I would never get so petty to the many great people who lash into the work when it is there. If you think management of a business is about this kind of ****e, god help you.

Peter

Normally I'm not one to ask about legal matters on a message board, but I figured this would be such a basic fact that the experienced employers here would know the answer off the top of their heads. Your opinions are also valuable and expected, so thanks for them.

CelticRambler

Peterdalkey wrote: »

After more than thirty years running a manufacturing and distribution business employing 13 to 110 and now back to 25, I hope I would never get so petty to the many great people who lash into the work when it is there. If you think management of a business is about this kind of ****e, god help you.

Agreed. If you cultivate the kind of business atmosphere where you penalise employees for circumstances genuinely out of their control, they'll give you nothing back. I worked in one company where this situation was so bad, being in the company car park as the clock turned to 16:00:00 was like the start of a Grand Prix (one guy was rostered to clock all the cards). That company must have paid for thousands of wasted man-hours every month.

In my own businesses, I've paid by the hour based on the number of hours expected of the worker. If they're late because of traffic or must go early (for family reasons) they sort it out with their co-workers. Unless you're running a finely-tuned production line, there's always flexibility in the system.

dbran

Hi

It depends on what it says in the employees contract of employment and in the company's employees handbook/manual.

However you cannot just dock a persons wages on a whim, certainly not without going through the proper procedures, warnings etc.

People are making the comparison to purchasing items in a shop or being self employed etc. This is a false comparison. If they are employees they are governed by employment law and they have rights to be paid a wage. This is even if it is actually unfair to the employer or the employer is not getting good value for money. You hired them, tough luck. If you cant get past this then don't take on staff.

But the answer to your problem of lateness is really quiet simple. Employees are like cats. If you don't want them to scratch the furniture you reward them when they use the scratching post.

For example any employee who is consistently on time gets a bonus each month. If you are worried about the loss of productivity then how much does this loss of productivity actually cost. How much can you then afford to pay a bonus to encourage this not to happen. If the answer to the former is zero or they make up the time later on anyway, then is there really a problem to begin with?

Hope this helps.

dbran

Solair

Very glad I don't work for the OP!

Sounds like they're consulting about setting up a sweatshop.

Being that petty will usually create a hostile atmosphere and high churn / zero loyalty.

You can expect most people to start clock watching and having no respect for your customers.

It's policies like you're outlining that results in customers getting really bad experiences from call centre staff for example.

You have to treat people like humans!

Occasionally, things go wrong !

If someone's injured in the workplace docking their pay would quite likely result in a very bad atmosphere.

If an employer did that to me, I would most certainly not be leaning towards giving them the "benefit of the doubt" and would probably be more likely to call a solicitor as there would be no goodwill!

You'll find that goodwill in business goes a LONG way!

MyPerfectCousin

Solair wrote: »

Very glad I don't work for the OP!

Sounds like they're consulting about setting up a sweatshop.

Being that petty will usually create a hostile atmosphere and high churn / zero loyalty.

You can expect most people to start clock watching and having no respect for your customers.

It's policies like you're outlining

What policies? Who even said I was an employer? The ethical points and HR advice made in this thread are all very interesting and well put. I should think whatever policies are put in place by an employer, he/she would also like to know the underlying facts of the situation with regard to the law. Wrong place for facts, I know.

amen

underlying facts of the situation with regard to the law

the law just tells you what you can do not what you should do.

If the weather is very bad i.e. flooding, snow and people are asked not to make unnecessary journeys and an employee gets to work late I would be pay them and most likely send them home early. (and pay them).

Flexibility is key.

On the other hand if you have an employee who has started to arrive late every day then that needs to be addressed the second/third time it happens.

DubTony

I've only just glanced through the thread, so what I have to offer may already have been said. My opinion on this is employee specific. I've "been good" to people over the years and gotten nothing in return. I've "been bad" to some and it didn't matter a damn.
Over the years I took this attitude. I pay the people for their time and their effort. It's a fair exchange and agreeable to both parties. If they go the extra mile, I will as well. If they're wasters / freeloaders they'll get nothing more from me than we have agreed on (before I fire them).

I have lost count of the number of employees I "helped out" (usually in a small way) only to find out later that they still badmouthed me, slacked off, etc.

One thing I discovered is that team players generally give more. I eventually learnt to define a team player by how they spoke about the business. I've been in retail for 30 years and most conversations were about the store's needs (stock, merchandising etc). Many employees will never actually connect themselves with the business and will speak of jobs that need to be done in general terms. Some employees would use phrases like "Your hot water tank is broken" or "you're out of stock of *something*".

The dedicated and loyal always and consistently referred to issues and problems as "our" or "we have none". But the real gems were the people who took responsibility and ownership and referred to "my section" or "I'm out of *something*".

Might be worth thinking about.

Max001

In my experience (20 yrs blue chip HR) companies that spend as little as possible on attracting, selecting and onboarding new employees, pay a heavy price over the long term.
Few people join an organisation wanting to be a 'problem' employee. Those that do have that mindset won't be screened out unless you have an effective and systematic approach to recruiting.
In many instances the organisation and its managers are the cause of employee behavioural problems, that by the time they are effectively dealt with, will have consumed large amounts of management time and resources. (See the EAT and Labour Court)
It might be some consolation, that very, very few organisations globally, manage the employer - employee relationship very well. Those that do are usually found in the top few of the annual best places to work survey. Legalities aside, if you're contemplating setting up a business or organisation employing others, or want to make positive changes to how you manage your employees, learning from the top companies in the above survey might be no bad place to start. Most organisations are happy to share their methods, if you ask.

CelticRambler

DubTony wrote: »

Many employees will never actually connect themselves with the business and will speak of jobs that need to be done in general terms. Some employees would use phrases like "Your hot water tank is broken" or "you're out of stock of *something*".

The dedicated and loyal always and consistently referred to issues and problems as "our" or "we have none". But the real gems were the people who took responsibility and ownership and referred to "my section" or "I'm out of *something*".

This is very true. I worked last year with a company that had cultivated the first attitude and there was non-stop bickering and squabbling between "the workers" and "management" with the result that every little problem became bigger than it needed to be. I was glad to be out of there before the inevitable meltdown (which came about six weeks later).

On the otherhand, it's a real pleasure to work with people who know you know that they know how to do the job they've been given and they get on with it. They make it easy for themselves to take time off (planned or otherwise) because they don't want anyone else having to take on their work, so the employer saves more than the cost of a couple of missed hours.

bon ami

As an employer I do not dock pay if someone is late for work , however, I would make the following observations. In our case, we have a number of employees who really push the timekeeping issue - arrive in 1 minute before or after clock in times , push their breaks by a minute or 2 and leave on the dot of finishing time.

During the recent snowy weather the 2 employees who live furthest from work were in early but the ones who were late live closeby. Met Eireann forecast the bad weather well in advance but some people just do not put any effort into ensuring they good time keepers. They also show a total lack of respect for their colleagues who are excellent timekeepers.

BostonB

Isn't the real issue here staff retention/turnover. If its not an issue then there's no need for flexibility. if you want to retain staff then its might not be so black and white.

Victor

Max001 wrote: »

Those that do are usually found in the top few of the annual best places to work survey.

Most of those surveys are meaningless. You might have a handful of organisations that give half-truth answers and the battle axe HR manager that lies the most becomes Ireland's best employer.

For such surveys to be meaningful, they need to cover all organisations and potential, current and past employees.

bon ami wrote: »

As an employer I do not dock pay if someone is late for work , however, I would make the following observations. In our case, we have a number of employees who really push the timekeeping issue - arrive in 1 minute before or after clock in times , push their breaks by a minute or 2 and leave on the dot of finishing time.

When are they meant to come and go? Yes, it should be task based and they shouldn't be clock watching, but they are doing exactly what you have asked of them.

BostonB

Surveys can only ever be a sample.

Max001

I agree with the points made above about surveys etc., however if you're considering change, you have to pick a place to start gathering research data. If a company has no in-house HR resource, this is one such data source of many, that I'd not be inclined to dismiss.

Surveys are valid statistically, when conducted correctly and with a large enough sample.