Lots of Spoilers. Don't Come in because books.

Gbear

Holy balls! I just saw this video:

Don't watch unless you've read at least the first 4 books.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

I won't imbed in case people who hover over can see what it's about.

Superduper spoilery so I'm not taking any chances.

MitchKoobski

*swish*

Sleepy

That is brilliant. And a brilliant change given that the Westerlings are often accused of this very thing...

podgemonster

I was thinking Bullshít until the Reginald Lannister character piece, why would they throw that in, has to be.

Oh god just show me the next 9 episodes now!!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Oh wow... very interesting.

Mickeroo

I thought it was made pretty obvious she was a spy though? Didn't pick up on the more minute details at all though. Don't really buy the thing about the acents was deliberate either but it's possible I suppose.

Gbear

Mickeroo wrote: »

I thought it was made pretty obvious she was a spy though? Didn't pick up on the more minute details at all though. Don't really buy the thing about the acents was deliberate either but it's possible I suppose.

Yeah. You don't really have to buy the whole shebang. Some elements might just be wishful thinking.

Or indeed all might be. I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

adocholiday

Summary for those of us with no youtube access until Monday?

stesaurus

Didn't they make a mistake on a casting call or something on set which listed her character as Jeyne?

Gbear

adocholiday wrote: »

Summary for those of us with no youtube access until Monday?

Yeah it's a little mysterious because I didn't want to have any mega spoilers that some poor unsuspecting non-book-reader might stumble across.

Basically, it sets out (with some evidence) that Talisa is a Lannister spy.

It makes a fairly good case although nothing is concrete. It could be 100% correct, half correct or total bollocks. We'll see in 8 weeks time or so.

adocholiday

Thanks!

Very different angle to the books isn't it. I've read them twice never thought that the Westerlings were spies. Why bother having her as a spy in the show? I always thought that the whole Westerling arc was purely to lead to the RW and that Talisa was just an easier means of doing that (Robb doesn't have to go to their castle, do the siege, introduce new family to the show etc).

Gbear

adocholiday wrote: »

Thanks!

Very different angle to the books isn't it. I've read them twice never thought that the Westerlings were spies. Why bother having her as a spy in the show? I always thought that the whole Westerling arc was purely to lead to the RW and that Talisa was just an easier means of doing that (Robb doesn't have to go to their castle, do the siege, introduce new family to the show etc).

All books

I think it's pretty clear that Jeyne's mother was giving her "moon tea" and that she basically had made a deal with the lannisters? No?
I'm pretty sure there's a concrete example of possibly Tywin explaining that Mrs Westerling was in on the deal. Can't remember from when.

Cookiemunster

adocholiday wrote: »

Thanks!

Why bother having her as a spy in the show? I always thought that the whole Westerling arc was purely to lead to the RW and that Talisa was just an easier means of doing that (Robb doesn't have to go to their castle, do the siege, introduce new family to the show etc).

I agree. She doesn't need to be a spy for events to unfold like in the book. She was brought in to simplify the story by removing the Westerlings so why would you complicate again by making her a spy.
Besides we all know that the Leech Lord is a traitor and I'd be amazed if his role in the RW isn't the same as in the book. I suppose we'll find out in episode 9.

adocholiday

As per the AWOIAF Wiki on Jeyne Westerling: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jeyne_Westerling

Jeyne went into mourning, to the chagrin of her mother, who had been in secret negotiations with Lord Tywin Lannister. Unknown to Jeyne, her mother had given her potions against pregnancy under the pretense of a fertility potion. Riverrun was besieged shortly after but the siege was settled peacefully by Ser Jaime Lannister. He had Jeyne returned to her father back at the Crag. To avoid tales that her dead husband had given her a child (and thus an heir), Jeyne was to remain unmarried for two years and was given a strong escort of soldiers with secret instructions to kill her if there would be any attempt to kidnap her.

So I guess I just didn't pick up on that or else I decided to forget I read it

Gbear

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I agree. She doesn't need to be a spy for events to unfold like in the book. She was brought in to simplify the story by removing the Westerlings so why would you complicate again by making her a spy.
Besides we all know that the Leech Lord is a traitor and I'd be amazed if his role in the RW isn't the same as in the book. I suppose we'll find out in episode 9.

I suppose the main difference is where the "blame" for Robb's ultimate defeat lies.

In the books, Robb loses the Freys and Karstarks because of how he acts (rightly or wrongly). It seems like Bolton accepts the Lannister offer in light of this given what he could gain as a result. Opportunism from Bolton and Tywin Lannister.

It could be that in the show they want Tywin to be the orchestrator from the beginning and Bolton's treachery to be less opportunistic and more cynical.
It doesn't need to be very complicated. Tywin just has to say "she was a plant". Job done.
Also, I don't really see how changing Jeyne to Talisa makes it all that simpler.
If all they were doing with the change was going for simplicity then they could've left the story as it was and not bothered including Jeyne's family. To make her not get pregnant they could've just decided that she was barren.
Edit: Although I suppose that it's possible they weren't willing to gloss over it like they did in the books - Robb is a POV character in the show unlike in the books.

If she is as she appears - just some Volantene wan, then the only effect it has is that it changes why Robb breaks his oath to the Freys and diminishes his character in the process - being horny and willful as opposed to having a rigid code of honour that, like his father, gets him killed.

Mr Freeze

Great video, I hope it's just clever editing, cause I wouldn't like to see Talisa as a spy. I always had some sympathy for Jeyne in the books, and never thought of her as a spy.

Although if they do go down this route, it will be great to see the shock on my non book reading other half when she watches this unravel.

Gbear

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Great video, I hope it's just clever editing, cause I wouldn't like to see Talisa as a spy. I always had some sympathy for Jeyne in the books, and never thought of her as a spy.

Although if they do go down this route, it will be great to see the shock on my non book reading other half when she watches this unravel.

Well it'd be different. Jeyne wasn't a spy and seemed to really love Robb.

It was her mother who was scheming and giving here homemade special fertility juice, which was actually "moon tea" - which induces abortions.

thehairyone

The video is quite compelling.

I remember giving out last year about the lack of Jeyne Westerling in the series. I think its pretty clear from the books that Jeyne loved Robb and that it was her mother who was in league with Tywin Lannister and was giving her Moon tea (and if theres such a thing as a love potion in the world of ASoIaF I suspect she might have slipped some to robb aswell, Jenynes grandmother if I remember correctly was said to be some kind of woods witch, so the skills could have been passed down to Jeynes mother).

The reason why i complained about the lack of Jeyne last year was that it took away from the cunning/deviousness of Tywin Lannister. if this turns out to be true then ill be delighted.

Gbear

thehairyone wrote: »

The video is quite compelling.

I remember giving out last year about the lack of Jeyne Westerling in the series. I think its pretty clear from the books that Jeyne loved Robb and that it was her mother who was in league with Tywin Lannister and was giving her Moon tea (and if theres such a thing as a love potion in the world of ASoIaF I suspect she might have slipped some to robb aswell, Jenynes grandmother if I remember correctly was said to be some kind of woods witch, so the skills could have been passed down to Jeynes mother).

The reason why i complained about the lack of Jeyne last year was that it took away from the cunning/deviousness of Tywin Lannister. if this turns out to be true then ill be delighted.

Possibly all books

Jeynes grandmother was in fact "Maggy the Frog" that keeps appearing in the books in chapters relating to Cersei. She made a prophecy about Cersei getting killed by someone and all her kids dying. I can't remember the details.

Mickeroo

Gbear wrote: »

Possibly all books

Jeynes grandmother was in fact "Maggy the Frog" that keeps appearing in the books in chapters relating to Cersei. She made a prophecy about Cersei getting killed by someone and all her kids dying. I can't remember the details.

I had no idea about that, is it explicitly stated in the books?

Mickeroo

Mickeroo wrote: »

I had no idea about that, is it explicitly stated in the books?

I don't remember them making that reference myself

Sleepy

I think it's implied, remember making the connection and wondering was it the case on one of my re-reads.

Gbear

It doesn't mention it on the wiki page for Maggy the Frog so it certainly isn't spelled out.

I can't remember where I first saw it nor can I remember the evidence for it.
I'd just accepted it at this stage but now I'm not sure again.

Duckworth_Luas

Jayne Westerlings mother is a Spicer, a merchant family originating in Essos.

Maggy the Frog was brought to Westeros by her husband, a Spicer.

Kevan Lannister in ASoS wrote:

Lady Sybell’s grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he’d brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like.”

Lady Sybell = Jayne's mother
Maegi = Maggy

Cersei in AFfC wrote:

When Maggy the Frog opened her eyes, Jeyne Farman gave a frightened squeak and fled the tent ...... The old woman’s eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her.

Mr Freeze

Interesting. Never made that Maggy/Westerling connection myself while reading.

Will look it up.

username123

Gbear wrote: »

It doesn't mention it on the wiki page for Maggy the Frog so it certainly isn't spelled out.

I can't remember where I first saw it nor can I remember the evidence for it.
I'd just accepted it at this stage but now I'm not sure again.

It does mention it on Sybell Spicers Wiki.

Mr.Prodston

This could have been one of the radically different changes from the books that would have been done for the better but having seen this clip in the crush thread it may be less likely.

It's an unbelievable shout and adds more weight behind the changing of the Arya storyline to include Tywin too. I guess we'll all keep an extra eye on Talisa for a while now at least.