Are there any jokes about Islam allowed?

Obliq

Hello! I am wondering if there are any ways in which a Muslim person would find a joke BASED on the Islamic faith to be inoffensive, and possibly even funny?

My question is an entirely fact-finding mission into an unknown territory for me, and I'm hoping you won't mind discussing this with me (although I do make irregular appearances - I will try to reply to any comments that follow my post).

I am asking because a question has arisen for me on the Atheist and Agnostic forum (I am an agnostic atheist), and I don't know the answer. There is a joke by the well-known comedian Jimmy Carr, that I find funny and clever BECAUSE I believe it is both inoffensive to anyone, and also plays a little bit on a particular characteristic of the Quran (ie. it is read backwards - which is relative, I know)

My genuine query is about whether the very concept of a joke about the Islamic faith would be automatically offensive, in spite of the joke's content or whether it is context based, and each joke is judged on it's own offensive/inoffensive merits?

The joke I refer to is this one:


Thanks, Obliq.

Tom Dunne

I'll give my opinion as a (lapsed) Catholic living in a Muslim country.

In Muslim society, religion plays a very important part of every day life. To disparage, or otherwise speak ill of Islam would be considered socially unacceptable, even heretical. Just look at the controversy a while back over the disposal of copies of the Koran. While I am no expert on Islam, I am not aware of any specific rules that say joking about the religion is forbidden. However, I would be very surprised if it was tolerated in any Muslim country.

Obliq

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I'll give my opinion as a (lapsed) Catholic living in a Muslim country.

In Muslim society, religion plays a very important part of every day life. To disparage, or otherwise speak ill of Islam would be considered socially unacceptable, even heretical. Just look at the controversy a while back over the disposal of copies of the Koran. While I am no expert on Islam, I am not aware of any specific rules that say joking about the religion is forbidden. However, I would be very surprised if it was tolerated in any Muslim country.

Thanks Tom. I understand that speaking ill or disparaging Islam is unacceptable, but I am wondering if the sensitivity within Muslim society is such that even approaching the Islamic faith in humour (ie. not laughing at it, but with it!) is unacceptable. I have a feeling that it may be, and I am not passing judgement here, just trying to learn where part of the boundary between our societies starts.

LostInDharma

Good question, pity nobody really answered you.

I have always wondered about that myself because we always hear about how its the radical muslims giving Islam a bad name and most people are moderates (?)

I have a question for any Irish muslims (including muslims living in Ireland),

If someone purposely and openly insults the prophet, what should the punishment be ? Or indeed, should there even be a punishment ?

Thanks

Tom Dunne

LostInDharma wrote: »

I have a question for any Irish muslims (including muslims living in Ireland),

If someone purposely and openly insults the prophet, what should the punishment be ? Or indeed, should there even be a punishment ?

Thanks

I think this post is nothing more than an attempt to derail the thread. Insulting the Prophet Mohammed and the associated punishment has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

This thread is about humour and Islam and Muslims' thoughts on the two. Nobody has suggested that insulting the Prophet is appropriate.

LostInDharma

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I think this post is nothing more than an attempt to derail the thread. Insulting the Prophet Mohammed and the associated punishment has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

This thread is about humour and Islam and Muslims' thoughts on the two. Nobody has suggested that insulting the Prophet is appropriate.

Derail the thread ? There was no discussion at all on this at all. A single reply !

I think my question was on point, humor in Islam, about Islam or the prophet is seen as insult to Islam and the prophet no matter how innocent it may seem to us in the west.

Tom Dunne

LostInDharma wrote: »

I think my question was on point, humor in Islam, about Islam or the prophet is seen as insult to Islam and the prophet no matter how innocent it may seem to us in the west.

Your point jumped directly into insulting the Prophet. This thread is about humour. There is a significant difference.

Humour about religion can take many forms, from the institutions of the religion itself, to daily rituals or religious holidays.

Humour does not equate to insulting anyone, let alone the Prophet himself.

LostInDharma

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Your point jumped directly into insulting the Prophet. This thread is about humour. There is a significant difference.

Humour about religion can take many forms, from the institutions of the religion itself, to daily rituals or religious holidays.

Humour does not equate to insulting anyone, let alone the Prophet himself.

Tell me a joke about the prophet that muslims wont find insulting and I will concede your point.

Tom Dunne

LostInDharma wrote: »

Tell me a joke about the prophet that muslims wont find insulting and I will concede your point.

So you have just proven my point - the OP did not ask if joking about the Prophet would be considered insulting, he asked if jokes about the religion would be considered insulting. Such as the joke above.

It is you who is equating humour about the religion to insulting the Prophet.

Sadly, this sort of twisting of words and assuming a defensive stance on the Prophet further re-enforces the negative stereotypes of Islam in the West.

Well done.

LostInDharma

Tom Dunne wrote: »

So you have just proven my point - the OP did not ask if joking about the Prophet would be considered insulting, he asked if jokes about the religion would be considered insulting. Such as the joke above.

It is you who is equating humour about the religion to insulting the Prophet.

Sadly, this sort of twisting of words and assuming a defensive stance on the Prophet further re-enforces the negative stereotypes of Islam in the West.

Well done.

The prophet is a big part of the religion is he not. I think it would come under the same heading.

There was no twisting of words, I was very clear in what I asked. stereotypes implies it may or may not accurately reflect reality. Lets check if it is a stereotype.

Give me a joke on the prophet.

Tom Dunne

LostInDharma wrote: »

Give me a joke on the prophet.

Forgotten how to use Google, have we?

LostInDharma

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Forgotten how to use Google, have we?

Needed to get a word in did we ? I guess you also dont think this a mere stereotype of Islam after all.

I guess I dont need to concede your point after all.

Thanks

hivizman

Muhammad is reported to have had a sense of humour, and often laughed and joked with his family and friends. For example, Bukhari reports a tradition on the authority of Abu Hurayra, that a man came to Muhammad and told the Prophet about breaking his fast by having sexual intercourse with his wife. Muhammad suggested various penances for breaking the fast, but the man said that he could not do any of them. Finally, Muhammad gave the man a basket of dates and told the man to give them away as charity. "The man said, 'To one poorer than me, Messenger of Allah? By Allah, there is no family between the two harras which is poorer than the people of my household.' The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, smiled until his molars showed and then said, 'Feed it to your family.'"

Several of the traditions at least make me smile (though I don't know any that are in the "roll on floor laughing" category). I particularly like the well-known story reported by Al Tirmidhi on the authority of Anas ibn Malik. A person came to visit Muhammad and was seen to leave his camel untied. When challenged about this, he said that he trusted in Allah, to which Muhammad replied: "First tie your camel, and then trust in Allah".

There are various "no-nos" in Islamic jokes:

1. Be careful not to insult anyone in a joke. This is based on Qur'anic authority, in Surat al-Hujurat (49:11): "Believers, do not mock other people, for they may be better than you."

2. Don't frighten people, for example through a practical joke.

3. Don't lie in the course of telling a joke.

4. Be moderate in joking - excessive humour can be a distraction.

However, Muslims are encouraged to be cheerful, and even greeting a friend with a smile is something that will be rewarded.

LostInDharma

hivizman wrote: »

Muhammad is reported to have had a sense of humour, and often laughed and joked with his family and friends. For example, Bukhari reports a tradition on the authority of Abu Hurayra, that a man came to Muhammad and told the Prophet about breaking his fast by having sexual intercourse with his wife. Muhammad suggested various penances for breaking the fast, but the man said that he could not do any of them. Finally, Muhammad gave the man a basket of dates and told the man to give them away as charity. "The man said, 'To one poorer than me, Messenger of Allah? By Allah, there is no family between the two harras which is poorer than the people of my household.' The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, smiled until his molars showed and then said, 'Feed it to your family.'"

Several of the traditions at least make me smile (though I don't know any that are in the "roll on floor laughing" category). I particularly like the well-known story reported by Al Tirmidhi on the authority of Anas ibn Malik. A person came to visit Muhammad and was seen to leave his camel untied. When challenged about this, he said that he trusted in Allah, to which Muhammad replied: "First tie your camel, and then trust in Allah".

There are various "no-nos" in Islamic jokes:

1. Be careful not to insult anyone in a joke. This is based on Qur'anic authority, in Surat al-Hujurat (49:11): "Believers, do not mock other people, for they may be better than you."

2. Don't frighten people, for example through a practical joke.

3. Don't lie in the course of telling a joke.

4. Be moderate in joking - excessive humour can be a distraction.

However, Muslims are encouraged to be cheerful, and even greeting a friend with a smile is something that will be rewarded.

Does these 4 "no-nos" apply to muslims only ? Because humor in the west will break all the rules above.

mathepac

LostInDharma wrote: »

Does these 4 "no-nos" apply to muslims only ? Because humor in the west will break all the rules above.

I disagree. What passes for humour in Western societies has come to the stage that some individual or group must be the butt of the joke fot it to be deemed funny. The usual tergets for this kind of humour were mothers-in-law, wives, women generally, blacks, Asians, police, politicians, footballers, gay people in fact anyone who was different and weak enough not to be able to protest.

Jokes and humour don't have to be at some-ones' expense. The camel joke above reminded me of story of the man engrossed in prayer at the chapel / mosque / temple / church / grotto / fairy wrath. A friend asked what he was praying for so fervently. "I'm prying for God / Buddah / Allah / other diety / sacred being to help dig me out of the financial trouble I'm in", replied the supplicant. "I hope your prayers are answered", said the friend, "but you might want to bring your own along shovel too." Gentle humour with a little parable.

It has become very boring for me listening to some comedians' brands of humour, either on the telly or live, with the constant effing and blinding and the distinct lack of originality they display.

Two of the funniest human beings of all time, IMHO, of course, were Charlie Chaplin and Norman Wisdom. They were geniuses, as actors, acrobats, composers, film-stars, comedians, stuntmen, businessmen, writers, etc. What they had in common in their art was that they themselves were the primary targets of their own jokes and misfortunes.

LostInDharma

mathepac wrote: »

I disagree. What passes for humour in Western societies has come to the stage that some individual or group must be the butt of the joke fot it to be deemed funny. The usual tergets for this kind of humour were mothers-in-law, wives, women generally, blacks, Asians, police, politicians, footballers, gay people in fact anyone who was different and weak enough not to be able to protest.

Jokes and humour don't have to be at some-ones' expense. The camel joke above reminded me of story of the man engrossed in prayer at the chapel / mosque / temple / church / grotto / fairy wrath. A friend asked what he was praying for so fervently. "I'm prying for God / Buddah / Allah / other diety / sacred being to help dig me out of the financial trouble I'm in", replied the supplicant. "I hope your prayers are answered", said the friend, "but you might want to bring your own along shovel too." Gentle humour with a little parable.

It has become very boring for me listening to some comedians' brands of humour, either on the telly or live, with the constant effing and blinding and the distinct lack of originality they display.

Two of the funniest human beings of all time, IMHO, of course, were Charlie Chaplin and Norman Wisdom. They were geniuses, as actors, acrobats, composers, film-stars, comedians, stuntmen, businessmen, writers, etc. What they had in common in their art was that they themselves were the primary targets of their own jokes and misfortunes.

I agree with your statements and I guess that would come under the banner to taste. What I may find funny you may not, which is fine.

But my question was more on the line that these forms of humor are allowed in the west and do muslims here in Ireland think that they should not be allowed ?

There are many things that happen in Ireland that are not islamic like drinking but I never hear a muslim saying you must not drink. But we do hear "you must not insult Islam". Why is that ? What makes Islamic culture more important than the culture of the country your living in ? Why should muslim culture be held higher than Irish culture in this regard ?

Obliq

hivizman wrote: »

There are various "no-nos" in Islamic jokes:

1. Be careful not to insult anyone in a joke. This is based on Qur'anic authority, in Surat al-Hujurat (49:11): "Believers, do not mock other people, for they may be better than you."

2. Don't frighten people, for example through a practical joke.

3. Don't lie in the course of telling a joke.

4. Be moderate in joking - excessive humour can be a distraction.

However, Muslims are encouraged to be cheerful, and even greeting a friend with a smile is something that will be rewarded.

Thank you for your reply, and the insight into Muslim humour! I will go over your examples again later - I smiled at the untied camel one, as it's very similar to Irish humour about the Christian god. I didn't understand the humour of the first one!

I am interested in the "no-nos" you've listed here. Does this mean that the joke I illustrated my point with could actually be seen as funny to Muslims?! I personally can't find anything that contravenes your guidelines above.

hivizman

I tried out Jimmy Carr's joke on some Muslim friends (who, to put things in context, are very liberal and westernised), and they found the basic joke funny but not his final comment.

Slightly off track, but the "tie your camel" story reminds me of the man who prayed to God to win the jackpot in the Lottery. After several weeks without a result, he asked God why his prayer wasn't being answered, to which God replied: "Help me out here. At least buy a lottery ticket!"

The story about the man who had broken his fast is often given as an example of Muhammad's practicality and reasonableness. Rather than telling the man "you've had sex with your wife in the daytime during Ramadan, so you're off to hell", Muhammad told the man to do one of the standard expiatory acts for breaking the fast (free a slave, feed the poor), and then, when the man said that this was impossible, not only provided the wherewithal to feed the poor, but was amused by the irony that the poorest family was that of the fast-breaking man himself.

Obliq

hivizman wrote: »

I tried out Jimmy Carr's joke on some Muslim friends (who, to put things in context, are very liberal and westernised), and they found the basic joke funny but not his final comment.

Interesting. The final comment containing a rude word. Would it have gone over better do ya think if it had read "And that's because I'm not an idiot"? To my mind, it would be more funny, as it would be less offensive to more people of different faiths. The question I have here is whether the curse word was what put off your Muslim friends, or was it the concept that Jimmy Carr is being clever enough to make a joke about Islam that doesn't contravene your 4 basic rules above? ....being TOO clever maybe, and perhaps making a subtle play on your fairly restrictive rules for joking about your religion? Are those subtleties something your friends were taking into account about the full humour of the joke? Hope you don't mind my questions, but I'm very interested in your response!

Slightly off track, but the "tie your camel" story reminds me of the man who prayed to God to win the jackpot in the Lottery. After several weeks without a result, he asked God why his prayer wasn't being answered, to which God replied: "Help me out here. At least buy a lottery ticket!"

Ha, this joke would work in any religion. Of course, it is possibly more amusing to an agnostic atheist like myself. God here is looking for evidence of belief, where we look for evidence of god! (not trying to derail the thread here - just an observation based on our respective positions).

The story about the man who had broken his fast is often given as an example of Muhammad's practicality and reasonableness. Rather than telling the man "you've had sex with your wife in the daytime during Ramadan, so you're off to hell", Muhammad told the man to do one of the standard expiatory acts for breaking the fast (free a slave, feed the poor), and then, when the man said that this was impossible, not only provided the wherewithal to feed the poor, but was amused by the irony that the poorest family was that of the fast-breaking man himself.

Ohhh! That (bolded) makes it more understandable/funny alright :-) I figured it was ironic, but didn't realise that this was a "breaking the fast" exemption - I was missing some context there!

hivizman

The lottery joke wouldn't work in Islam because Muslims are not supposed to gamble. There are various verses in the Qur'an that prohibit gambling (maysir) and games of chance, for example Surat al-Maidah (5:91 - Sahih International translation): "Satan only wants to cause between you animosity and hatred through intoxicants and gambling and to avert you from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. So will you not desist?"

This is something that affects Islamic Banking and Finance, because certain types of financial transaction are considered to involve gambling and hence are not permitted. For example, Islamic Finance has difficulties with insurance, because this can be seen as a form of gambling (you pay a premium and receive a big payout if a particular event happens but nothing if the event doesn't happen - like betting on a horse and winning if the horse comes in first but losing your stake otherwise). Islamic Finance has developed an equivalent of insurance known as takaful, that scholars consider not to include any prohibited elements, such as riba (interest), gharar (particular types of uncertainty in contracts) and maysir (gambling), and this is growing rapidly, at the expense of "conventional" insurance, in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Malaysia.

ArmaniJeanss

The BBC family sitcom Citizen Khan which aired last year would be a good watch for some 'laughing at (with) Islam' jokes.

e.g., daughter who is not quite as devout as her parents believe will often hurriedly shove a copy of the Quran over her Heat magazine when the parents walk in.

Tom Dunne

Seeing Muslims as one homogenous group is also an issue. Remember, Islam is across many cultures and countries and what is funny/acceptable in one country may not be acceptable in another. Compare British humour to Irish/US humour - broadly similar, but some things the British might find funny, we would not.