Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

IvyTheTerrible

I don't particularly agree with what this unfortunate young man said about suicide but he was entitled to his opinion.

However, my brother killed himself a few years ago and I am finding some of the comments friends of mine are making in relation to his comments particularly hurtful, considering as they were full of supposed sympathy at the time of his death. It seems that the truth about what some people really think about suicide is coming out now.

krudler

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I don't think he meant "cop on I have it worse than you" at all. He was very humble and didn't want pity or people feeling sorry for him.

The general impression I got from that interview was that he wanted raise awareness, show people that ending it isn't always the answer, and to ask for help. He was pleading with people to think twice before doing it, to consider their family and friends etc.

He said he was angry that people were ending their lives when he had no say in the matter for his own, which frankly, imo, is an understandable reaction from a 16 year old. Doesn't make it right but I'm a lot older than 16 and I imagine if I was given the kind of news he was I'd be angry with the world too.

This is coming from someone whose had 2 members of my immediate family end their lives.

I completely understand the message he was trying to get across.

Yeah but he did say "they think they have problems" as if to say anything affecting mental health is easily dealt with, which it isn't ,that's the point.

Nobody with depression of mental issues is going to suddenly think "ah sure what am I complaining about" because a 16 year old told them he was worse off than them, illness isn't a competition. It's not something you just snap out of. Yes there's help around, but stigmatising people with mental issues even more by telling them "it could be worse" is exactly why it's such an issue in this country at the moment.

SusieBlue

krudler wrote: »

Yeah but he did say "they think they have problems" as if to say anything affecting mental health is easily dealt with, which it isn't ,that's the point.

Nobody with depression of mental issues is going to suddenly think "ah sure what am I complaining about" because a 16 year old told them he was worse off than them, illness isn't a competition. It's not something you just snap out of. Yes there's help around, but stigmatising people with mental issues even more by telling them "it could be worse" is exactly why it's such an issue in this country at the moment.

Well what I took from that was "they think they have problems they can't solve and killing themselves is the only option", rather than "they think they have problems, look at me, I have it way worse".

I don't think he was trying to be a martyr, I don't think he was trying to imply that he was worse off than someone suffering with mental health issues. I think he was trying to raise awareness for people to seek help if they're having problems rather than suffering alone.

Just shows how people perceive things differently, I got something totally different to what he said to what you took from it.

_Whimsical_

krudler wrote: »

Yeah but he did say "they think they have problems" as if to say anything affecting mental health is easily dealt with, which it isn't ,that's the point.

.

He said it about young teenagers, not about mentally ill people. If you watch his interview on tv he did make that distinction.

The truth is that SOME teenage lives are ended over bullying, over loss of friendship,over not fitting in in school, over not measuring up to a social or physical ideal.Those things can cause real despair and even depression but are issues that can be looked at, dealt with,put into perspective and that 5 years later would not be dominating that persons life if they'd just sought the help they needed and just hung on. I'm not saying teenage despair doesn't count, it's often more accute than adult despair because a teenager doesn't always have the personal resources,maturity or experience to deal with it. It's not worth ending what may well have been a wonderful future life free of any mental illness over. Teenagers need to hear that message. I think this boy was brave to send it.

Fighting Irish

Lads calm down, he was a 16 year old who was trying to help the best way he could and with the information he had

OCorcrainn

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Lads calm down, he was a 16 year old who was trying to help the best way he could and with the information he had

Some people here very much like to turn something positive, like Dónal's message, into something negative. This is like the online version of Joe Duffy for people to vent.

Pappa Charlie

R.I.P Donal

StewartGriffin

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

He said it about young teenagers, not about mentally ill people. If you watch his interview on tv he did make that distinction.

The truth is that SOME teenage lives are ended over bullying, over loss of friendship,over not fitting in in school, over not measuring up to a social or physical ideal.Those things can cause real despair and even depression but are issues that can be looked at, dealt with,put into perspective and that 5 years later would not be dominating that persons life if they'd just sought the help they needed and just hung on. I'm not saying teenage despair doesn't count, it's often more accute than adult despair because a teenager doesn't always have the personal resources,maturity or experience to deal with it. It's not worth ending what may well have been a wonderful future life free of any mental illness over. Teenagers need to hear that message. I think this boy was brave to send it.

These are good points. Not all suicides are caused by a clinical depression.

PopePalpatine

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Some people here very much like to turn something positive, like Dónal's message, into something negative. This is like the online version of Joe Duffy for people to vent.

Mainly because his message is NOT what a depressed/suicidal person needs to hear. It's pretty much like slapping them in the face and telling them to "man up" or else they'll slap them again.

Czarcasm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Mainly because his message is NOT what a depressed/suicidal person needs to hear. It's pretty much like slapping them in the face and telling them to "man up" or else they'll slap them again.

I resisted so far the urge to post in this thread again, and no offence PP, but I for one would appreciate if you spoke for yourself on that one.

Turtwig

Czarcasm wrote: »

I resisted so far the urge to post in this thread again, and no offence PP, but I for one would appreciate if you spoke for yourself on that one.

It's already been discussed at length why it's a not a good message for mentally ill people to hear.

You could argue it's ok for teens with personal problems, which many teens do have, but the danger is there that there's also teens who suffer mental health issues.

dee_mc

Donal expressed an opinion coloured by his own life experience; whether or not he was naïve, and whether or not we agree with what he thought and said on the issue of suicide, young people respond to the attitudes of their peers, and often are oblivious to the fact that others their age are going through experiences and feelings as bad as, or 'worse than', their own: in my opinion, what Donal said is unlikely to have a negative impact on his target audience, and in fact is likely to make them think twice before taking actions that result in a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
What a wonderful legacy for a young man who had so little control over his own fate, to have taken the opportunity to save lives. What a brilliant message to young people going through tough times and mental health issues, to be reminded that they have the power and control not to end their life, but to get help, to change it and embrace it.
It must be a great comfort to his parents, sister and friends to know, during this awful time for them all, that Donal was, is and will be so influential to the lives of other young people and their families.
RIP Donal Walsh.

Czarcasm

Jernal wrote: »

It's already been discussed at length why it's a not a good message for mentally ill people to hear.

You could argue it's ok for teens with personal problems, which many teens do have, but the danger is there that there's also teens who suffer mental health issues.

Sweeping generalisations Jernal, not everybody thinks the same way, and I was only speaking for myself. That doesn't mean I have to lay my personal experience with mental illness and suicidal thoughts out on the Internet to make my point that people don't all think the same way.

I've already significantly contributed to and followed the thread btw just in case you were thinking I'm only jumping in at the end to add my 2c.

OCorcrainn

krudler wrote: »

and many feel it was wrong to be given the platform he was to say what he did, his passing away doesn't change that. Nobodies denying its extremely sad someone had their life cut so short, but that doesn't give anyone the right to go on television and basically tell people "cop on I have it worse than you".

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Mainly because his message is NOT what a depressed/suicidal person needs to hear.

What gives you the right to say that, who are you and other people here think they are to speak for those of us who have suffered from suicidal tendencies or depression and pontificate. I have had mental illness and what you have described, and what Donal said and what his message was resonated with me along with others that I know who have these mental illnesses you speak of and have helped us.

How dare you lecture us, you think you and other people know what is best for us, who the hell are you and these other self-righteous people, majority who have no idea,decide what we need or don't need to hear!

Turtwig

Czarcasm wrote: »

Sweeping generalisations Jernal, not everybody thinks the same way, and I was only speaking for myself. That doesn't mean I have to lay my personal experience with mental illness and suicidal thoughts out on the Internet to make my point that people don't all think the same way.

I've already significantly contributed to and followed the thread btw just in case you were thinking I'm only jumping in at the end to add my 2c.

I've read your contributions. I wasn't thinking you were jumping in at the end. But asking PP would likely just be threading over old ground. I retract it though, it was a little harsh on my part.

As for personal experiences they are important but also very dangerous. How one person experiences the flu can be very different to how another person (same age, standard of health, fitness etc.) experiences it. So personal experience isn't everything, if something works for a person, good, but they shouldn't assume things will play out in a similar fashion for someone else.

RossFixxxed

OCorcrainn wrote: »

What gives you the right to say that, who are you and other people here think they are to speak for those of us who have suffered from suicidal tendencies or depression and pontificate. I have had mental illness and what you have described, and what Donal said and what his message was resonated with me along with others that I know who have these mental illnesses you speak of and have helped us.

How dare you lecture us, you think you and other people know what is best for us, who the hell are you and these other self-righteous people, majority who have no idea,decide what we need or don't need to hear!

He can speak from his own experience, and you yours. You cannot speak for everyone either.

I, personally, do not agree with the message and the tone of what Donal said on that program and I think a national broadcaster giving a dying kid a soap box to preach about God and suicide is a bit remiss on their part. That is MY own, uneducated, opinion on the matter. I only speak for ME on that.

"Majority who have no idea" - how do you know? Do you not see the irony in your own post here?

You've basically said you don't like the majority generalising!!

General General

OCorcrainn wrote: »

What gives you the right to say that, who are you and other people here think they are to speak for those of us who have suffered from suicidal tendencies or depression and pontificate. I have had mental illness and what you have described, and what Donal said and what his message was resonated with me along with others that I know who have these mental illnesses you speak of and have helped us.

How dare you lecture us, you think you and other people know what is best for us, who the hell are you and these other self-righteous people, majority who have no idea,decide what we need or don't need to hear!

He probably got the idea that he could say whatever he wants from the guy a few posts back who thought it was ok to tell everyone he didn't agree with to 'STFU already.'

krudler

OCorcrainn wrote: »

What gives you the right to say that, who are you and other people here think they are to speak for those of us who have suffered from suicidal tendencies or depression and pontificate. I have had mental illness and what you have described, and what Donal said and what his message was resonated with me along with others that I know who have these mental illnesses you speak of and have helped us.

How dare you lecture us, you think you and other people know what is best for us, who the hell are you and these other self-righteous people, majority who have no idea,decide what we need or don't need to hear!

Whut?

jigglypuffstuff

Dravokivich wrote: »

Its not a matter of defending himself. People shouldn't be in too much of a rush to make a martyr of the kid. He was in no position to speak about what he did, without the knowledge about what he was speaking of. People are catching on too much about what he said, without thinking about what it means. The issue isn't with him.

He had as much a right to voice his views as anyone else does

krudler wrote: »

and many feel it was wrong to be given the platform he was to say what he did, his passing away doesn't change that. Nobodies denying its extremely sad someone had their life cut so short, but that doesn't give anyone the right to go on television and basically tell people "cop on I have it worse than you".

Id love to see where that was said?

krudler wrote: »

Yeah but he did say "they think they have problems" as if to say anything affecting mental health is easily dealt with, which it isn't ,that's the point.

Nobody with depression of mental issues is going to suddenly think "ah sure what am I complaining about" because a 16 year old told them he was worse off than them, illness isn't a competition. It's not something you just snap out of. Yes there's help around, but stigmatising people with mental issues even more by telling them "it could be worse" is exactly why it's such an issue in this country at the moment.

He never portrayed it as a competition, you decided to portray it in that manner

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Mainly because his message is NOT what a depressed/suicidal person needs to hear. It's pretty much like slapping them in the face and telling them to "man up" or else they'll slap them again.

FFS...yeah because thats what a 16 dying of cancer does with his last few weeks on earth, runs a campaign of telling mentally ill people to man up, and slapping the resistant.

RossFixxxed

pone2012 wrote: »

Id love to see where that was said?

Where what was said? That quote of mine doesn't address any point he made, I just made the point that it has opened a debate on mental illness and that debate is a very worthy one.

I don't follow you.

Do you mean where was it said that he shouldn't have had the platform to speak from? I said it in another post of mine... Sorry if I'm being dumb here, I don't understand what you are asking me?

jigglypuffstuff

RossFixxxed wrote: »

Where what was said? That quote of mine doesn't address any point he made, I just made the point that it has opened a debate on mental illness and that debate is a very worthy one.

I don't follow you.

Do you mean where was it said that he shouldn't have had the platform to speak from? I said it in another post of mine... Sorry if I'm being dumb here, I don't understand what you are asking me?

My fault accidentally clicked one too many multi quotes :pac:

OCorcrainn

RossFixxxed wrote: »

"Majority who have no idea" - how do you know? Do you not see the irony in your own post here?

You've basically said you don't like the majority generalising!!

The majority here, completely different to in general.

RossFixxxed

You 'poned' yourself.

I'm so funny!

Back on topic: I feel, personally, that his message carried a guilt trip for people who are depressed / suicidal. You think YOU have it bad, well I'm dying. I get that it is an unspeakably horrible thing that happened the poor kid, but saying what he said really carries a bad message as far as I am concerned.

I don't agree with a national broadcaster giving him this soap box. We have a terrible mental health system, and things like this do stick out. I have personally heard people saying "he's right, those moaners should shut up, they could have cancer like him." THAT is what really scares me. That is the last attitude any of us want out there. It will just add back to the stigma that many are trying to stamp out around mental health issues!

RossFixxxed

OCorcrainn wrote: »

The majority here, completely different to in general.

o_O

Ok so the majority here then. That's like saying the majority of men are horrible. BUT ONLY MEN, so it's completely different from saying the majority of people. Or the majority of red heads are evil....

So making a statement that decires generalising whilst generalising yourself is ok if the sample size is small enough for you?

Is this a real post? Is this real life?

Doctor Strange

RIP.

Not going to even pretend I agreed with him, or thought he was right. I put it down more to national media cashing in on people's empathy by giving him a platform though.

OCorcrainn

RossFixxxed wrote: »

o_O

Ok so the majority here then. That's like saying the majority of men are horrible. BUT ONLY MEN, so it's completely different from saying the majority of people. Or the majority of red heads are evil....

So making a statement that decires generalising whilst generalising yourself is ok if the sample size is small enough for you?

Is this a real post? Is this real life?

You might as well be comparing apples to oranges.
From the many ignorant and insensitive remarks from some people on this thread made against the boy and deliberately taking what he said out of context I did generalize in the context of this thread, I am not denying that is not an accurate reflection in reality but it is here. Like it or lump it.

RossFixxxed

OCorcrainn wrote: »

You might as well be comparing apples to oranges.
From the many ignorant and insensitive remarks from people on this thread made against the boy and deliberately taking what he said out of context I will generalize in the context of this thread. Like it or lump it.

That's your right, just be wary of 'do what I say not what I do'. That's how I see that post. It's your perogative.

The 'majority' of posts I have seen have been respectful to the boy, not his message.

His message is misguided, naive and potentially damaging to some people. Conversely if some teens were to take it on board and it helped that would be wonderful. All I can see, however, is another stigma around mental health and suicide.

One person should not have such a platform on a deeply complex issue like this.


Let me lay my cards out here:

I feel terrible for the poor boy, awful thing to happen. Tragic he died.

I feel angry at his message. I feel it is damagaing.

I feel angry RTE allowed this.

I feel terrible that even ONE person with a mental illness may see what he said and it could make them worse.

I feel angry that, potentially, people will add to the stigma of mental health.

I think it was stupid, reckless and irresponsible to allow him to just state his opionion on something like this. He has no experience on it, he has no medical, philosophical or moral ground to judge people like that. Having cancer and being in a horrible situation does not give you credibility or gravitas to your words.

This thing is a mess, and it should be DEBATED. That means I give my own, stupid, opionon, you give your opinion and many others join in.

To be perfectly blunt: I can see why people harbour resentment and anger towards him. Compassion to his plight and anger at his stupid message are two very seperate things. Apples and oranges as you might say.


TL;DR: Us arguing about this is a GOOD thing! I'm not claiming to be right, or the bottom line on this.

justaskin likeyakno

What happened him is awful, but 'just life' all the same. I saw a part of an interview with him yesterday and thought it was odd. I actually feel more sane after reading some of the comments here.

I'm sure anyone who is terminally ill has a problem with anyone who would choose to end their life but mental ill health is an illness just like cancer. Consider it a cancer of the mind if you will, if you top yourself, then that's what you died from.

I could understand why my sister would commit suicide after seeing her battling mental ill health all her life and the social prejudice that comes with it.

I'ii just avoid said interview, I have enough to get upset about without boosting RTEs ratings.

RossFixxxed

justaskin likeyakno wrote: »

What happened him is awful, but 'just life' all the same. I saw a part of an interview with him yesterday and thought it was odd. I actually feel more sane after reading some of the comments here.

I'm sure anyone who is terminally ill has a problem with anyone who would choose to end their life but mental ill health is an illness just like cancer. Consider it a cancer of the mind if you will, if you top yourself, then that's what you died from.

I could understand why my sister would commit suicide after seeing her battling mental ill health all her life and the social prejudice that comes with it.

I'ii just avoid said interview, I have enough to get upset about without boosting RTEs ratings.

I'm sorry to hear about your sister.

I wish more people would consider this side of the argument.

jigglypuffstuff

justaskin likeyakno wrote: »

if you top yourself, then that's what you died from

If is a big word, there was no if for that poor lad it was just simply your going to die, very soon, end of, no more help available just accept it and get on with it.

justaskin likeyakno

pone2012 wrote: »

If is a big word, there was no if for that poor lad it was just simply your going to die, very soon, end of, no more help available just accept it and get on with it.

I know, but that boy dying is just life and there wasn't a thing he could do about it. It's sad and horrible.

The point is he is getting air time to give out about people committing suicide, I personally would have a problem with anyone giving out about topic that is first poorly understood and secondly is a direct reaction to their own circumstances.

If life was fair I would have four kids now, but I don't. That doesn't give me a right to campaign against the morals of IVF.

In short, just because you're dying for whatever reason, does not give you the right to campaign against suicide.

And believe me, there is not much help out there for mental health in Ireland, no matter what Ray D'Arcy and his buddies say..

Hersheys

I've previously been suicidal. I will probably be suicidal again. I'm getting help for it from numerous people.

What didn't help was when I broke down and opened up to a friend about how I was feeling, she made me watch Donals interview on repeat to show me how wrong suicide is.

RIP Donal, awful tragic story, but Christ it's not what you need to hear when you're clinically depressed and suicidal!

SusieBlue

Basically what people are getting at here is that it's insensitive for Donal to speak against suicide when there are so many people with suicidal urges out there.

But what about how the people with suicidal urges made HIM feel?

Is that not a double standard? Seems a bit hypocritical tbh.

justaskin likeyakno

Because a suicidal person understands how it is so unfair that a young person like him dies when they want to be alive and well.

It adds to the stigma and mental torture of depression, suicidal thoughts and mental illness.

Donal is too young to understand that someone doesn't choose to be suicidal.

General General

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Basically what people are getting at here is that it's insensitive for Donal to speak against suicide when there are so many people with suicidal urges out there.

But what about how the people with suicidal urges made HIM feel?

Is that not a double standard? Seems a bit hypocritical tbh.

I think what those people are getting at is more that he was given RTE airtime on top of the Indo publishing his opinions as they did.

Insect Overlord

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Basically what people are getting at here is that it's insensitive for Donal to speak against suicide when there are so many people with suicidal urges out there.

It was not insensitive for him to speak about it. The more attention the issue gets, the better.

The things he said were overly simplistic, to the point of being insensitive. They were written/said with positive intent, and not through any malice, I'm sure. They just weren't delivered particularly well.

justaskin likeyakno

Insect Overlord wrote: »

It was not insensitive for him to speak about it. The more attention the issue gets, the better.

The things he said were overly simplistic, to the point of being insensitive. They were written/said with positive intent, and not through any malice, I'm sure. They just weren't delivered particularly well.

This sums up my opinion on the whole debacle. I just couldn't articulate it.

Turtwig

pone2012 wrote: »

If is a big word, there was no if for that poor lad it was just simply your going to die, very soon, end of, no more help available just accept it and get on with it.

If we're going to leave this thread with one thing can it be the realisation that mental illnesses can be just as terminal as some forms of cancer? For some illnesses, physical or mental, there is no cure, you suffer and you die; that's it. Some people don't get any choice. This illusion that suicide is an autonomous choice for everybody needs to stop. Suicide is a choice for some people, but it's not for everyone.

Side note : Even though this thread is largely about suicide. Not every fatal mental illness will end by suicide. Lots of people with mental illness get physically unwell too. There is also aspects of self neglect too.

Also, just because suicide isn't a choice doesn't mean it's not preventable. Just like death from pneumonia as a result of the flu can very often be prevented so too can death from suicide as a result of a mental illness be prevented.

Mr Cumulonimbus

RIP.

RTE News report on his funeral. The funeral haka by Dan Cournane at the end is an extraodinary piece of emotion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHn8elFx5GM

jigglypuffstuff

Jernal wrote: »

If we're going to leave this thread with one thing can it be the realisation that mental illnesses can be just as terminal as some forms of cancer? For some illnesses, physical or mental, there is no cure, you suffer and you die; that's it. Some people don't get any choice. This illusion that suicide is an autonomous choice for everybody needs to stop. Suicide is a choice for some people, but it's not for everyone.

Side note : Even though this thread is largely about suicide. Not every fatal mental illness will end by suicide. Lots of people with mental illness get physically unwell too. There is also aspects of self neglect too.

Also, just because suicide isn't a choice doesn't mean it's not preventable. Just like death from pneumonia as a result of the flu can very often be prevented so too can death from suicide as a result of a mental illness be prevented.

Going by that post and taking what you've into account said id me more inclined to say that mental illness is more comparable to a disability rather than a terminal illness ie the illness itself will impair a persons life....but it will not directly kill them, just my own thought on the matter though im not saying im correct but thats more how id view it

On a side note..another teenager 18 years old found after committing suicide near where I live. How this problem isnt being addressed to a huge extent i do not know.Such a shame to see this happen when it can be prevented

I think the message everyone should take is suicide just isnt the answer...

RIP to that another one of Irelands youth

Turtwig

That's purely semantics. Many people who die of the flu will die from pneumonia but those deaths are recorded as being caused by the flu. People who die from cancer can die in a variety of ways. The person who gets HIV (when it was a death sentence) isn't going to die from the virus directly they're going to die from something minor to an uncompromised immune system. It isn't always the cancer that kills them directly it's the consequences of having the cancer in their body. It's semantics to suggest death from mental illnesses is any different.

Czarcasm

Jernal wrote: »

That's purely semantics. Many people who die of the flu will die from pneumonia but those deaths are recorded as being caused by the flu. People who die from cancer can die in a variety of ways. The person who gets HIV (when it was a death sentence) isn't going to die from the virus directly they're going to die from something minor to an uncompromised immune system. It isn't always the cancer that kills them directly it's the consequences of having the cancer in their body. It's semantics to suggest death from mental illnesses is any different.

But Jernal the situations you describe above are the realities. The spectrum of mental disorders and diseases is such a broad spectrum that while psychosis and depression won't kill you and is treatable, the original diagnosis that caused them- syphilis untreated- will kill you.

If caught early enough though, you can treat the original symptoms before you reach cascade effect.

The only ones playing semantics are those equating mental diseases and disorders with physical diseases and disorders. The two require two totally different approaches to diagnosis and treatment and to try and equate them in any way is purely disingenuous at best, and is as bad as the OP in this thread trying to say that Donal's campaign about raising young people's awareness that there are alternatives to taking their own life, was in any way related to mental health issues.

Donal himself made the point on the Saturday Night Show that he was not addressing people suffering from mental illnesses, he was addressing young people who were choosing to take their own life.

None of us here know of his experience with mental illnesses and disorders beyond that, but as this thread has certainly shown, people twice his age haven't shown much maturity in dismissing an opinion that wasn't aimed at them in the first place, let alone dismissing Donal's opinion because of his age.

wolfpawnat

When I watched his interview that night not too long ago I knew he was ill, but I didn't realise he had so little time left. Poor young lad, so brave. RIP and I really hope his family are being supported through this terrible time. Whatever else anyone says, he did what he felt was right, and he was so brave to do so.

RIP Donal.

Turtwig

Czarcasm wrote: »

But Jernal the situations you describe above are the realities. The spectrum of mental disorders and diseases is such a broad spectrum that while psychosis and depression won't kill you and is treatable, the original diagnosis that caused them- syphilis untreated- will kill you.

If caught early enough though, you can treat the original symptoms before you reach cascade effect.

The only ones playing semantics are those equating mental diseases and disorders with physical diseases and disorders. The two require two totally different approaches to diagnosis and treatment and to try and equate them in any way is purely disingenuous at best, and is as bad as the OP in this thread trying to say that Donal's campaign about raising young people's awareness that there are alternatives to taking their own life, was in any way related to mental health issues.

Donal himself made the point on the Saturday Night Show that he was not addressing people suffering from mental illnesses, he was addressing young people who were choosing to take their own life.

None of us here know of his experience with mental illnesses and disorders beyond that, but as this thread has certainly shown, people twice his age haven't shown much maturity in dismissing an opinion that wasn't aimed at them in the first place, let alone dismissing Donal's opinion because of his age.

I've already stated in this thread that I'm against comparing levels of suffering for any ailment. Nobody is equating anything here. We're just making the point that terminal mental illness are every bit as real as terminal cancer. How they're diagnosed and treated is of course very different, but the threat to life is just as real and the idea that suicide is a choice is a gravely misinformed one.

If someone get's a severe life threatening psychotic illness they're going to die if you don't treat that illness. If the illness isn't treatable, it's terminal. That's all there's to it.

There is growing evidence that Suicidal Ideation is a disease of its own. Brain scans, epigenetic markers and blood tests seems to be indicating this. The hope is that someday we'll be able to recognise a person's risk to SI by identifying biological markers in their body. Hopefully by then people will have come to realisation that suicide isn't a decision made by everyone. Hopefully.

BrianG23

When your living just for the sake of living, life ain't too good. Long term depression is a different ball game than being sad, try knowing you are sad for nothing, but you simply can't stop the unhappiness no matter what you try. I can honestly see where suicide folk are coming from when they consider doing it.

sadie06

Czarcasm wrote: »

Donal himself made the point on the Saturday Night Show that he was not addressing people suffering from mental illnesses, he was addressing young people who were choosing to take their own life.

None of us here know of his experience with mental illnesses and disorders beyond that, but as this thread has certainly shown, people twice his age haven't shown much maturity in dismissing an opinion that wasn't aimed at them in the first place, let alone dismissing Donal's opinion because of his age.

I haven't read any of the rest of this thread, but I would argue that anyone, young or old, that chooses to take their own life is at that very moment suffering unimaginable mental anguish, and is, at that moment, quite ill.


There is no doubt that Donal showed enormous courage in voicing his opinion, but just this morning I witnessed his sentiments being used to pass judgement, and add further stigma to the families of those who have taken their own life.


A parish priest decided to devote his whole sermon to praising the 'inspiration' provided by Donal Walsh and contrasted his 'brave battle' with the selfishness shown by those who 'do away with themselves'. This was all said at a family mass full of young children. We know of one family who would have left feeling extremely hurt and upset.


Education, not judgement, is key to tackling the issue of teenage suicide. I strongly feel that the celebration of Donal's opinion on the matter has taken us back several steps in this regard. He was entitled to express his opinion, it was the media seizing upon it that has done the most damage.

jigglypuffstuff

Jernal wrote: »

the idea that suicide is a choice is a gravely misinformed one

But in reality it is a choice, isnt it?

Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.

Czarcasm

Jernal wrote: »

I've already stated in this thread that I'm against comparing levels of suffering for any ailment. Nobody is equating anything here. We're just making the point that terminal mental illness are every bit as real as terminal cancer. How they're diagnosed and treated is of course very different, but the threat to life is just as real and the idea that suicide is a choice is a gravely misinformed one.

And therein lies the semantics- not all mental illnesses are terminal, not all cancers are terminal. We need to be more specific about exactly what we're talking about here or else you end up with what's being done in this thread- equating depression with lung cancer. The two couldn't be more world's apart.

If someone get's a severe life threatening psychotic illness they're going to die if you don't treat that illness. If the illness isn't treatable, it's terminal. That's all there's to it.

More semantics and goalpost moving to back up your assertions. I understand where you're coming from, but we need to agree on one single definitive disorder or disease that is terminal if we are to come to any sort of understanding. By your definition- the most common severe life threatening psychotic illness is anorexia, and that's treatable. All psychological illness is treatable, all physical illnesses aren't, though I wouldn't for a minute suggest that's all there is to it and I'd welcome being corrected on that so that the information is out there not just for myself but for other people reading this thread who would like to be informed also.

There is growing evidence that Suicidal Ideation is a disease of its own. Brain scans, epigenetic markers and blood tests seems to be indicating this. The hope is that someday we'll be able to recognise a person's risk to SI by identifying biological markers in their body. Hopefully by then people will have come to realisation that suicide isn't a decision made by everyone. Hopefully.

I would say that hopefully such research would give us a better understanding of SI and the causes of SI. We could spend all day arguing over whether it actually IS recognised as a psychological mental disorder/disease, or is it merely an ideology, one in which more and more young people are buying into because they feel that there IS no hope.

If we were to recognise SI as a psychological disorder/disease, should we not then treat it the same way we would any other psychological disorder/disease- find the root cause and work from there, as opposed to painting over the surface with short term solutions that only help people "to cope" in the short term.

Taking one's own life IMO is a decision, and often when we talk about suicide in relation to depression, the person is often depressed before they are suicidal, but there isn't much thought given to people who are SI without ever suffering from depression. The numbers for SI in young people are rising rapidly as without hope, they become apathetic, they place no value on life, and therefore see no reason to continue trying to live.

It is these young people that Donal was aiming his message at, not people suffering from mental illness.

Paddy Cow

pone2012 wrote: »

But in reality it is a choice, isnt it?

Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.

Would you say that someone suffering from paranoid delusions and who acts upon them, had the choice not to do so? There are many mental illness that make people act in a way that rational people would never chose to to. What about people with bipolar? Do they chose to behave erratically when going through a manic stage or is the illness so overwhelming that thought and choice go out the window? What about people with depression. They know they are depressed so are they chosing to be lethargic and unmotivated?

I think what people need to understand about mental illness is that it takes away the ability to think rationally or make certain choices that healthy people take for granted.

Czarcasm

sadie06 wrote: »

I haven't read any of the rest of this thread, but I would argue that anyone, young or old, that chooses to take their own life is at that very moment suffering unimaginable mental anguish, and is, at that moment, quite ill.

Sadie you missed the link I posted earlier in this thread to a story in the Independent detailing the story of Marie Fleming, a 59 year old UCD lecturer who lost her battle in the high court recently to have the right to end her own life. She is not mentally ill.

If we're going to talk about doing away with stigma's surrounding suicide (and not get bogged down and sidetracked by talking about mental illness), then we need to realise, whether we're uncomfortable with the idea or not, that for some people, the act of taking their own life is a perfectly rational decision.

The rest of your post I completely agree with, especially re education and understanding of the issues surrounding young people choosing to take their own lives.