Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

Lightbulb Sun

Jernal wrote: »

I've already stated in this thread that I'm against comparing levels of suffering for any ailment. Nobody is equating anything here. We're just making the point that terminal mental illness are every bit as real as terminal cancer. How they're diagnosed and treated is of course very different, but the threat to life is just as real and the idea that suicide is a choice is a gravely misinformed one.

If someone get's a severe life threatening psychotic illness they're going to die if you don't treat that illness. If the illness isn't treatable, it's terminal. That's all there's to it.

There is growing evidence that Suicidal Ideation is a disease of its own. Brain scans, epigenetic markers and blood tests seems to be indicating this. The hope is that someday we'll be able to recognise a person's risk to SI by identifying biological markers in their body. Hopefully by then people will have come to realisation that suicide isn't a decision made by everyone. Hopefully.

I don't necessarily agree here. I don't think you can compare mental illness and physical in terms of them being terminal. If a cancer is terminal, it is what it is and the person is guaranteed to die from it. Whereas with mental illness I don't honestly think a doctor can look at a patient and say "you have a terminal illness" They can't set it in stone like they could if someone had untreatable cancer/AIDs etc.

Psychosis is not an unequivocally terminal illness. Sufferers of it are more likely to make suicide attempts than the average person. It doesn't mean that having it guarantees a terminal outcome though.

Czarcasm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I think what people need to understand about mental illness is that it takes away the ability to think rationally or make certain choices that healthy people take for granted.

I think Paddy that what people who think the above need to understand is that mental illness won't kill you and IS treatable, but suicide and SI is a different issue that requires a different approach to diagnosis and treatment.

jigglypuffstuff

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Would you say that someone suffering from paranoid delusions and who acts upon them, had the choice not to do so? There are many mental illness that make people act in a way that rational people would never chose to to. What about people with bipolar? Do they chose to behave erratically when going through a manic stage or is the illness so overwhelming that thought and choice go out the window? What about people with depression. They know they are depressed so are they chosing to be lethargic and unmotivated?

I think what people need to understand about mental illness is that it takes away the ability to think rationally or make certain choices that healthy people take for granted.

You've either (A) Mistaken what ive said or (B) Twisted my words

In any event ill repeat them for you

Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.

Take a read of what you've posted and what ive underlined, have a think about it and then you'll see what I said was the person may feel like they have no choice as this is their perception, However factually this is not the case

General General

pone2012 wrote: »

Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.

Take a read of what you've posted and what ive underlined, have a think about it and then you'll see what I said was the person may feel like they have no choice as this is their perception, However factually this is not the case

That last bit (which I've highlighted in bold) is down to your perception of what is factually the case & what isn't factually the case, yeah?

Czarcasm

General General wrote: »

That last bit (which I've highlighted in bold) is down to your perception of what is factually the case & what isn't factually the case, yeah?

Would you care to explain for the rest of us General who some in this thread are not as au fait with mental illness as they are, how someone who is suffering from mental illness, are not experiencing compromised perception since you seem to think this is not factually the case?

This is what happens when people are far more concerned with "being right" as opposed to making any attempt to foster understanding of the issues involved- you disappear down your own rabbit hole; because following your logic, goes back to my original point that it is a perfectly rational decision then for a person to take their own life based on your assertion that a mentally ill person's perception of reality is not compromised, and going on this thread alone so far, apparently that's "wrong".

General General

Czarcasm wrote: »

Would you care to explain for the rest of us General who some in this thread are not as au fait with mental illness as they are, how someone who is suffering from mental illness, are not experiencing compromised perception since you seem to think this is not factually the case?

Not 100% sure what your question means. However, the idea of there being a choice 'factually' (in the case of someone suffering from mental illness, or indeed otherwise) is not based on anything other than belief, as I see it.

Czarcasm

General General wrote: »

Not 100% sure what your question means. However, the idea of there being a choice 'factually' (in the case of someone suffering from mental illness, or indeed otherwise) is not based on anything other than belief, as I see it.

Sorry about that General, posting on touch and it can be a finnicky fcuk at the worst of times, I was only halfway through my post, edited above, when it sent.

When you introduce "beliefs" into it, that to me is a poor attempt at denying the fact that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised, which is exactly WHY we try and treat people suffering from mental illnesses, rather than leave them to their own devices which can sometimes end in them choosing to take their own life because they see no other avenue to end the constant apathy or suffering.

General General

Czarcasm wrote: »

This is what happens when people are far more concerned with "being right" as opposed to making any attempt to foster understanding of the issues involved- you disappear down your own rabbit hole; because following your logic, goes back to my original point that it is a perfectly rational decision then for a person to take their own life based on your assertion that a mentally ill person's perception of reality is not compromised, and going on this thread alone so far, apparently that's "wrong".

What I was attempting to point out was that the idea that we, all of us, all of the time, enjoy/possess free choice regarding our actions is not much more than a belief, as I see it.. & that in certain mental states, including experiences of mental illness (although, not excluding other states), I doubt anyone can say that the person possesses free choice as a 'fact'.

General General

Czarcasm wrote: »

When you introduce "beliefs" into it, that to me is a poor attempt at denying the fact that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised, which is exactly WHY we try and treat people suffering from mental illnesses, rather than leave them to their own devices which can sometimes end in them choosing to take their own life because they see no other avenue to end the constant apathy or suffering.

I think we are a lot closer to the same position here than it might look. I see no reason to doubt that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised. I would go so far as to say, as I've said earlier in this thread, that we may yet discover a completely biochemical (or similarly materialist) mechanism that completely (or so substantially as to mean the same) removes free choice over thought.

My point, again, is that it's actually those who argue that the suicidal person 'believes' that they have no choice (rather than actually having no choice) that are laboring under the illusion of their own 'belief' (which is something like; every person always has free choice on the matter of suicide, which I think is not the case).

jigglypuffstuff

General General wrote: »

I think we are a lot closer to the same position here than it might look. I see no reason to doubt that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised. I would go so far as to say, as I've said earlier in this thread, that we may yet discover a completely biochemical (or similarly materialist) mechanism that completely (or so substantially as to mean the same) removes free choice over thought.

My point, again, is that it's actually those who argue that the suicidal person 'believes' that they have no choice (rather than actually having no choice) that are laboring under the illusion of their own 'belief' (which is something like; every person always has free choice on the matter of suicide, which I think is not the case).

Although they perceive they have no choice, that cannot take away from the reality that they do, regardless of how compromised ones perception is.

Czarcasm

General General wrote: »

I think we are a lot closer to the same position here than it might look. I see no reason to doubt that a mentally ill person's perception is indeed compromised. I would go so far as to say, as I've said earlier in this thread, that we may yet discover a completely biochemical (or similarly materialist) mechanism that completely (or so substantially as to mean the same) removes free choice over thought.

My point, again, is that it's actually those who argue that the suicidal person 'believes' that they have no choice (rather than actually having no choice) that are laboring under the illusion of their own 'belief' (which is something like; every person always has free choice on the matter of suicide, which I think is not the case).

Ahh right, I get where you're coming from now, we are indeed on the same page. What we're both saying is that a mentally ill persons perception removes their free will and they are therefore unable to see anything, only suicide as a means to end their suffering.

If they are treated however, their perception can change, enabling them to see the alternatives, thereby giving them back their free will to make a choice.

General General

pone2012 wrote: »

Although they perceive they have no choice, that cannot take away from the reality that they do, regardless of how compromised ones perception is.

Privileged access to reality, have you? At least, will you concede that there might be some as yet unknown mechanism that effects some kind of lock on our apparent free will, even temporarily, in some possible world..?

Brendan Flowers

R.I.P Donal. I can't begin to imagine what he was going through in his final few months. Thoughts are with his family.

I've noticed a lot of negativity in this thread towards Donal's original article. But what if it made just one person who was suffering from depression reconsider committing suicide? Its not impossible to think that due to all the discussions surrounding it that one person who was at their lowest stopped and thought about just how precious life. If Donal's article even helped save one life then shouldn't it be considered a huge success?

RossFixxxed

Brendan Flowers wrote: »

R.I.P Donal. I can't begin to imagine what he was going through in his final few months. Thoughts are with his family.

I've noticed a lot of negativity in this thread towards Donal's original article. But what if it made just one person who was suffering from depression reconsider committing suicide? Its not impossible to think that due to all the discussions surrounding it that one person who was at their lowest stopped and thought about just how precious life. If Donal's article even helped save one life then shouldn't it be considered a huge success?

Yes, and I've said that myself earlier as have others. The point being that it isn't that simple though. If he saves one and stigmatises 100 more then where are we? Or 100 decide against it and 100 feel even more isolated and decide to do it? It's not black and white like that and even those examples I've given are stupid.

This is a deeply complicated issue and I am incredibly wary of anyone who claims to have the answer to it. Donal's points are good as the grounds for an open discussion, but it cannot be over simplified into a few soundbites.

We need all sides on this. We need it out in the open not locked away in shame. We need people to know help is there.

We dont' need the 'sure that kid had cancer cop on to yourself' attitude we've had over here for so long. That's not working at all.

I don't have the answers, but it can't be swept under the carpet forever surely? No one person can speak for everyone on this. People's experience of mental illness and suicidial ideation etc are vastly different. The one thing that I can see as being common is the complete lack of support for these people and an ever present stigmatisation and isolation of people with these issues. Whilst simultaneously 1 in 7 (I think that's the figure) adults in this country are on anxiety / stress medications.

Czarcasm

RossFixxxed this isn't specifically aimed at you. I'm just throwing it out there to open the discussion a bit more, using your post as a springboard if you don't mind.

RossFixxxed wrote: »

Yes, and I've said that myself earlier as have others. The point being that it isn't that simple though. If he saves one and stigmatises 100 more then where are we? Or 100 decide against it and 100 feel even more isolated and decide to do it? It's not black and white like that and even those examples I've given are stupid.

I don't think the examples you've given are stupid at all RossFixxxed, you certainly make a better point than a lot of posters here who have only seen things from their own perspective and lambasted a 16 year old on a public forum. The anonymity of the Internet makes it all too easy for them to do that, but when one person, however misguided we might think he was, stands up and at least TRIES to publicise the issue of suicide amongst young people, he was effectively scorned and derided as not knowing what he was talking about by posters here, none of whom were willing to challenge his opinions publicly.

It's been THIS THREAD if anything, that has further stigmatised suicide and mental illness with the amount of overbearing negativity and any positive perspective being dismissed and shouted down as "they don't know what they're talking about either". That's what makes it very hard for anyone to talk about suicide or mental illness and so they internalise their misguided or misinformed opinion because they are too intimidated to express it, shouted down and dismissed by the naysayer elitists favorite phrase- "the amount of ignorance in this thread".

Well as Sadie quite rightly pointed out- EDUCATE people then, don't just dismiss them out of hand because they don't know. The very fact they are engaging with the discussion is an indication that at least they WANT to know, and they WANT to understand. Telling people "you wouldn't understand" is a horrible and stinking attitude, and THAT'S the attitude that fosters the stigma. How can people be expected to understand if a person never even makes any attempt to engage with them on their level?

This is a deeply complicated issue and I am incredibly wary of anyone who claims to have the answer to it. Donal's points are good as the grounds for an open discussion, but it cannot be over simplified into a few soundbites.

There are many separate issues being coddled into one here though- suicide and mental illness do not go hand in hand. I've said it time and again that a perfectly rational person can choose to take their own life, and General General made a good point that a mentally ill person can have their free will taken away from them due to their compromised perception, and see themselves as having no option but to cure their apathy and suffering by making what they perceive is the rational decision to take their own life.

Donal's points were not related to mental illness, they were related to suicidal ideation in young people. Somehow (The Independent newspaper) mental illness got thrown in there in the piece and the OP latched on to it and ran with it. The fault for this misdirection lies with the Editor of the Independent, not with Donal, whose message all along has been about suicide among young people, not mental illness. Unfortunately on Boards there seems to be a significant army of posters that will seek to wedge in mental illness issues from the comfort of their armchair, their confirmation bias leading them to see mental issues everywhere. I've seen it here in AH and I've seen it in other forums on Boards. Even Odysseus who has identified as being a qualified psychiatrist knows better than to diagnose somebody over the Internet, which is why they don't try and do it, but that doesn't stop the army of armchair psychiatrists here on Boards from trying to diagnose mental illness, as you say RossFixxxed- in a couple of soundbites.

We need all sides on this. We need it out in the open not locked away in shame. We need people to know help is there.

This thread has shown that while some people CAN come together and discuss the issue in a rational fashion, they are drowned out by the extremists introducing their personal bias and dismissing anyone that doesn't agree with them instead of even making any attempt to understand them or let them develop their point of view and as myself and General General discovered- we're actually on the same page once we were able to keep cool heads and discuss the issue in a rational fashion. We were just looking at it from different perspectives, and both of us learned something.

The reason people suffering from SI and mental illness don't talk about it can be any number of reasons, but in my opinion, the biggest reason they won't talk about it is not shame- it's that they simply don't have the language to express their opinions, their thoughts or their feelings, and then they lack the information, and a thread like this that COULD have as you said RossFixxxed been a good starting point for a discussion, quickly turned into the extremists with their elitist attitudes drowning everybody out who disagreed with them. The discussion became one sided, and when a discussion becomes one sided, then it's not a discussion any more- it's an exercise in validation.

We dont' need the 'sure that kid had cancer cop on to yourself' attitude we've had over here for so long. That's not working at all.

Did anybody actually come out and say that though? And I don't mean "well not in so many words but...", I mean those exact words. I don't think they did, and I've read back over this thread a couple of times in the last few weeks and even more in the last few days, trying to pick up on was there anything I missed that could move the discussion forward.

I don't have the answers, but it can't be swept under the carpet forever surely? No one person can speak for everyone on this. People's experience of mental illness and suicidial ideation etc are vastly different. The one thing that I can see as being common is the complete lack of support for these people and an ever present stigmatisation and isolation of people with these issues. Whilst simultaneously 1 in 7 (I think that's the figure) adults in this country are on anxiety / stress medications.

How many times do the numerous links and resources have to be posted though? Already in this thread, already in this FORUM, and in many, many other forums just on Boards alone, there have been copious links to numerous resources posted. There really IS something for everybody, so the excuses about the lack of resources and support just doesn't wash.

People who choose not to avail of these resources in the early identified stages of stress and a feeling of being unable to cope or feeling like they have no hope so do not feel any motivation to continue to live are the people who are to blame for the stigma surrounding suicide and mental health issues. You'll notice there I bolded the "people who choose", because in the early stages of mental illness, people DO have that choice to go and talk to their GP who is a medical professional and will support and direct them towards the proper resources to help them recover, a hell of a lot more scientifically sound than the average joe soap reading the symptoms off wikipedia and self diagnosing because they don't "trust" their GP. Find a different one then! There's fcuking plenty of them!

I just happen to have been incredibly lucky that I have a great relationship with my GP, a relationship and trust that has built up over 15 years. You don't just run to the GP that'll be quickest to shove you back out the door with a prescription for lexapro or whatever. You need to do your damn homework and it takes time to find the right GP, but when you do, the right GP won't just be interested in what's going on in your wallet, they'll be interested in what's going on in your mind, and how best to help you cope with that.

We need to stop quoting soundbite statistics in discussions too like the "one in four" and the "one in seven", etc. These statistics mean nothing to the individual, and often times we tend to forget about that in these discussions that we are talking about people's lives here. The discussion isn't just academic or intellectual, philosophical, etc, it goes to the very heart of humanity and how we interact with each other and out environment and our upbringing, and none of these issues and perspectives should be ignored or shouted down just because they don't appear on any fancy graphs or bunkum statistics pulled from the ársehole of nowhere and out of context by the average joe soap looking to back up their misguided wikipedia informed opinion.

GalwayGuy2

Hmm quick question. Did he actually take a stand against adolescent suicides? Not to talk ill of the dead, but I thought the was just giving out :S

RossFixxxed

Just to clear a few things I've said up:

Ehhh I should point out the statistic I gave was meant in the sarcastic way that you are addressing (hence my comment on sound bytes)! I had added more, but it was a bit TOO cynical even for me!

Yes, I have actually heard people say the "he had it worse, these whiners need to cop on" line from people IRL, not necessarily on here. It is infuriating. I've also heard the 'if he eat fruit and walked a bit he'd be fine' referring to someone with severe bipolar. Sigh.

Being mentally unwell does not necessarily mean you are suicidal. I did kind of lump them together on a second reading and that was very remiss of me, and I apologise if I was giving that impression out! I was more referring to those considering suicide due to mental health issues, rather than all people with issues are suicidal if you get me?

When I say there is no resources for people, perhaps that is glib. But there are EXTREMELY long waiting lists out there. Many people are struggling to make ends meet as it is and waiting for six months for a consultation after the GP is not ideal by a long shot. I know what you mean, there is a degree of "you can lead a horse to water" in these situations, but the support isn't great and I have encountered at least 3 professionals who said that a change of scenery would do me good, maybe a good job. The 4th professional was the one who helped. Yes you need to change doctors etc, but I had to fork over thousands of euro to get all this sorted out, and that is not possible for everyone! There is help out there for sure, but I'm not happy at all how mental health issues are dealt with in this country at all.

Happy to be a springboard, just saying this again: I sure as hell ain't any authority on these issues, and I would be very suspiciouis of anyone claimng to be. I'm just throwing my own, uneducated, view out there for others to speak on ala Czargasm! If something I say looks dopey, it probaby is!

General General

RossFixxxed wrote: »

Czargasm!

Durrty.

RossFixxxed

General General wrote: »

Durrty.

OMG! I always read it that way!

Oh wicked, bad, naughty, evil Zoot! Sorry Czar, you're sarcastic not orgasmic I'm afraid! Demotion imho!

Czarcasm

I have no intention of getting involved in this debate again, but...

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's been THIS THREAD if anything, that has further stigmatised suicide and mental illness with the amount of overbearing negativity and any positive perspective being dismissed and shouted down as "they don't know what they're talking about either". That's what makes it very hard for anyone to talk about suicide or mental illness and so they internalise their misguided or misinformed opinion because they are too intimidated to express it, shouted down and dismissed by the naysayer elitists favorite phrase- "the amount of ignorance in this thread".

Well as Sadie quite rightly pointed out- EDUCATE people then, don't just dismiss them out of hand because they don't know. The very fact they are engaging with the discussion is an indication that at least they WANT to know, and they WANT to understand. Telling people "you wouldn't understand" is a horrible and stinking attitude, and THAT'S the attitude that fosters the stigma. How can people be expected to understand if a person never even makes any attempt to engage with them on their level?

PLENTY of people on this thread have been very open and honest about their experiences with mental illness and suicidal thoughts, but you and others keep shooting them down. You keep saying you want to understand, but from what I can see, you don't. You keep pushing people to justify their feelings/emotions and trying to convince them that they're not valid. That's why people keep telling you that you don't understand. It's because you don't. You're not actually 'listening' or taking in anything anyone has posted about mental illness. You're looking at everything from YOUR perspective. I'm always happy to explain how a depressed person may think, but in your case, it was like talking to a brick wall. There's only so many times you can make the same points before you give up.

Czarcasm

RossFixxxed wrote: »

If something I say looks dopey, it probaby is!

But that's just it RossFixxxed, there are no "dopey" opinions, only people's different perspectives, and we should welcome more people into the discussion and encourage them to express their opinions, not dismiss them with "you know naaawtheeeng" type posts, telling them they are ignorant etc. That, to me, is what stifles discussion, is what gets it swept under the carpet, is actively discouraging people from talking about it.

Just because they don't have the language doesn't mean they should be discouraged from expressing their opinion, and maybe as the discussion goes on, they might pick up on things that resonate with them, however off the wall we might think the opinion is, the important thing is that now somebody else has the language to express that they feel the same way, thereby decreasing their feelings of isolation and exclusion.

The rest of your post I completely agree with btw, and I've met some clanger counsellors in my time who cannot leave their own personal bias outside the clinic door on their way in, but that's a personality clash more than anything and is easily dealt with sometimes, and then more times this is why I say as difficult and as hopeless as it may seem sometimes to find a professional who understands your mental state and is willing to put themselves in your shoes; when you actually do, it's well worth the waiting and the thousands of euro spent because you can't put a value on a person's mental health.

You're right too about the fact that things are moving too slowly, but when even the people charged with taking responsibility for the issue are too bogged down in playing the blame game and are entrenched in bureaucratic procedures and financial mismanagement, is it any wonder that still seven years later we have little or no movement on the issue-


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/mental-health-fund-cut-to-offset-hse-deficit-1.526327

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/half-of-new-mental-health-posts-unfilled-1.1255399

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mental-health-services-need-long-overdue-cultural-and-structural-revamp-1.1396559


At least the one thing we can be grateful to Donal for is that he has done more in seven weeks to get people motivated to talk about these issues and get involved in understanding them, than successive nest featherers in Dail Eireann who are charged with the responsibility of looking after this country, have done in seven YEARS.

The problem isn't a lack of resources, support or financial assistance. The problem is approaching the issue of suicide and mental health with the wrong attitude.

Czarcasm

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

I have no intention of getting involved in this debate again

There's not much point in me making the effort and taking the time to reply to your misguided opinion based on your compromised perspective then, is there?

Thanks for letting us know at least that you have no intention of getting involved in the discussion again, saves me having to think about how we could reach an understanding.


And it IS a discussion, not a debate. A discussion- no "sides", and unlike a debate, a discussion accomodates ALL opinions, as long as they are put across in a civil fashion.

Czarcasm

Czarcasm wrote: »

There's not much point in me making the effort and taking the time to reply to your misguided opinion based on your compromised perspective then, is there?

Thanks for letting us know at least that you have no intention of getting involved in the discussion again, saves me having to think about how we could reach an understanding.

Well, what's the point? I've already wasted quite a bit of my life going round and round in circles with you on this. Your condescending statement above says it all, really. You want people to 'make the effort' to 'convince you' of something you clearly don't think is real without you budging an inch or making any sort of effort to understand it yourself. I have a 'compromised perspective' while your view of the world is the 'right one'. Very telling. Very.

Your attitude is really bizarre, as if you think you're doing me some sort of favour by trying to understand my illness. Plenty of people have told you what it's like to be depressed. How many more hoops should we jump through? What more do you expect? Why do you keep needling and needling and complaining that people say 'you just don't understand' after you've proven that you're not interested in understanding?

If someone was in pain with terminal cancer and you asked them how it felt, they might describe it and tell you how their illness has changed their world view and you still might not be able to comprehend the amount of pain they were in or why they thought the way they did, unless you'd been in that situation yourself. Would you then say to the cancer sufferer that their pain can't be that bad and tell them they should articulate it better if they expect you to understand? If they then got a bit ratty with you for throwing their explanation back in their face and expecting them to keep justifying the pain they were in until you understood, would you tell them you had no sympathy for them and that they were just being a big crybaby?

pablomakaveli

This is a good analogy for living with depression.

123 LC

I can understand the negativity surrounding what he said, but at the same time not all suicides occur due to depression or mental illness. It can't be denied that what he has said HAS made a huge difference in making people discuss their thoughts and look for help. In my opinion what he has done is brilliant, and I really think it will have saved lives. http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-wonderful-and-lasting-legacy-of-brave-donal-walsh-29276410.html

Pumpkinseeds

I think it was disgraceful to give a terminally ill teenager, a national platform to enable him to castigate people who feel suicidal. I don't think that he had anything valuable to contribute and frankly it's disturbing that it was allowed to happen and that it was not only encouraged but celebrated. No surprise that the church demonstrated it's usual christian charity and understanding by virutally canonising him for his opinions.

I'll be hammered for this but I'm going to say it anyway, the guy was a stroppy teenager who had his 15 minutes of fame because he was dying. He didn't use that time to make any helpful contribution to people suffering from depression. If he hadn't been terminally ill he would have received national criticism but then again if he hadn't been dying nobody would have given a crap what he thought.

sReq | uTeK

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I think it was disgraceful to give a terminally ill teenager, a national platform to enable him to castigate people who feel suicidal. I don't think that he had anything valuable to contribute and frankly it's disturbing that it was allowed to happen and that it was not only encouraged but celebrated. No surprise that the church demonstrated it's usual christian charity and understanding by virutally canonising him for his opinions.

I'll be hammered for this but I'm going to say it anyway, the guy was a stroppy teenager who had his 15 minutes of fame because he was dying. He didn't use that time to make any helpful contribution to people suffering from depression. If he hadn't been terminally ill he would have received national criticism but then again if he hadn't been dying nobody would have given a crap what he thought.

Have to agree with most of what you said, however if anything comes out of it it will be some awareness and hopefully something setup for people who are suicidal.

Pumpkinseeds

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I think it was disgraceful to give a terminally ill teenager, a national platform to enable him to castigate people who feel suicidal. I don't think that he had anything valuable to contribute and frankly it's disturbing that it was allowed to happen and that it was not only encouraged but celebrated. No surprise that the church demonstrated it's usual christian charity and understanding by virutally canonising him for his opinions.

I'll be hammered for this but I'm going to say it anyway, the guy was a stroppy teenager who had his 15 minutes of fame because he was dying. He didn't use that time to make any helpful contribution to people suffering from depression. If he hadn't been terminally ill he would have received national criticism but then again if he hadn't been dying nobody would have given a crap what he thought.

Ah, now, that's a bit harsh. I didn't agree at all with what he said, but I think his heart was in the right place and I don't think you can get too angry with a terminally ill teenager for feeling the way he did. The issue was that he was given a platform.

Interestingly, most of the people I know in IRL and on Facebook do not agree with what he said. That was a massive surprise for me.

Insect Overlord

Czarcasm wrote: »

And it IS a discussion, not a debate. A discussion- no "sides", and unlike a debate, a discussion accomodates ALL opinions, as long as they are put across in a civil fashion.

For someone who isn't treating this thread as a debate, you do seem to be using some brutally under-handed fallacies to discount the arguments you don't agree with.

Czarcasm wrote: »

There's not much point in me making the effort and taking the time to reply to your misguided opinion based on your compromised perspective then, is there?

That's a dirty dig to throw at someone in a "discussion".

Czarcasm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

For someone who isn't treating this thread as a debate, you do seem to be using some brutally under-handed fallacies to discount the arguments you don't agree with.

Hand on heart IO I'm not trying to be any way underhanded or come off as abrasive. It's just I really AM trying to get an understanding of other people's perspectives on suicide and mental illness but even as I'm trying to keep a cool head about it, replies like Izzy's saying I have no understanding of mental illness just because they disagree with my perspective just set me off, when I'm trying to keep my personal experience out of the discussion because I don't think it'll add anything new to the discussion. I'm trying to remain as objective as possible and I know I'm treading a fine line between objective and abrasive. It's absolutely not intended to be abrasive and that's why I left the discussion for a while to go away and cool off.

That's a dirty dig to throw at someone in a "discussion".

You're right IO and I'll apologise for that Izzy, I think there's more a personality clash going on there as we're clearly both very passionate about the issues involved- I'm trying to remain objective and put my views across in as rational a manner as possible and off the cuff barbs like the above don't paint me in the best light. It was just when a person picks up on something I say and comments on it and then says but they have no further interest in the discussion. I thought "then don't bother picking me up on something if you're not willing to engage, and if you're not willing to engage but just jut in with a fly by post, you won't get much of a hearing from me".

I take no great joy in discussing these issues either, but I know it's a discussion that's necessary, so when someone says they've "wasted enough time" on me, I don't consider any of my time having been involved in this discussion "wasted" and I've learned a lot from the thread so far, so when someone else says their time has been "wasted" and they're telling me I'm making no attempt to understand and I'm not listening- yes, that sort of dismissive talk will get my back up and can make me say things I don't mean, and then I have to walk away and cool down before I really let loose the full force of my anger and frustration at being so grossly misrepresented just for the sake of petty point scoring like this is just an academic debate for some. I try to be considerate of where other posters are coming from, is it too much to expect the same in return or are posters just more interested in petty point scoring and who's "right" and who's "wrong"?

What's that going to achieve for anybody?

Czarcasm, I've been posting on this forum and other forums for years and only a handful of times have I realised that a discussion was utterly futile and declared that I had no longer had an interest in it. This was one of those times. This thread is over 6 weeks old. I clicked back onto it out of curiosity and I see the SAME points being made by the same posters over and over again. For someone who's not into point scoring, you sure seem to love doing it. I tried my best to describe what it's like to live with depression, which was very difficult for me, and you just kept shooting me down. Even resorting to personal insults.

You keep saying you're here to learn, but you really could have fooled me. After this poor chap died, several of my real life friends asked me what I thought about what he'd said. They previously would have been of the 'sure, would ya just get it together, he has it much worse' mindset, but after I explained a bit about why his message could be damaging to a depressed person, they told me they'd gained a whole new perspective about something they hadn't really thought about before. The thing is, they weren't trying to shoot me down the whole time, insisting that his message could also be helpful. What use is that? I already know that many people reckon his message was a good one. I can see why they think that. I'm trying to explain why it wasn't, for many people. And I know that's hard to grasp if you've never been depressed yourself. I don't know what you're trying to do here, but it isn't learn.

Precious flower

I feel very sorry for what that young boy went through but like others on here, I feel what he said about suicide was extremely insensitive, yeah he wanted not to have to die and wanted to live but I thought of the phrase 'Don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in his/her shoes'. Just because he had a terminal illness did not give him the right to judge others who were going through an illness of their own.

To say that people who commit suicide are leaving their family a mess that will never be cleaned up is further guilt tripping people contemplating suicide who feel their families would be better off with out them. That will not encourage people to seek help it will only cause them to further retreat into their shells, feeling shame at their thoughts. These people need to be fully encouraged to be open about their feelings and not to be judged about what they may be considering.

Until you're in that mindset, no one can judge. I can't judge, I've never been in that situation but I can imagine it's horrible. The newspapers are all talking about his message and how he's this saint almost. What he had to suffer through was horrible but people die from cancer everyday, just because he was given a platform to air his judgmental views makes him different makes him this 'inspirational' person.

It'll further make people say 'Sure you don't have a terminal illness like that boy, it's all in your head, get over it, be thankful you're alive.' Which is the completely wrong way to speak to someone going through something like that. I wish someone from sucide awareness would come out to the papers and say 'Will I think it's very hard to say that to a suicidal person. What they need is.....we shouldn't make people shameful about this etc. The Catholic Church seem to be jumping on this as well which I think is wrong but typical of them writing about him talking to the priest and all, he clearly got a strong message from the Catholic Church over suicide.

/Rant over.:mad: Needed to vent. I was arguing with my mother and brother a few days ago over this. Just felt strongly about it.:(

flutterflye

I kept hearing this boy's name on the news and the radio, facebook etc...
I had seen a youtube clip of the boy's interview, and had the same opinions as the majority on here (felt compassion for the boy, but was angered at RTE, and worried about the stigma in society) but I hadn't remembered what his name was.

So I kept on hearing his name mentioned, and meant to Google to see who he was, but I forgot. Then I heard they were doing the Haka at his funeral, and so I came to the logical conclusion that it was some famous rugby player.
As with most things to do with clebs and sport etc... I just zoned out and didn't pay attention.

When I realised eventually that no, it wasn't some famous person, it was this boy - I was, and still am quite shocked!
Shocked that there has been SO much media attention, and SO many people banging on about how sad it is and what a courageous, lovely boy with such a great message blahdiblahdiblah - Seriously wtf is wrong with people?!
I mean yes, of COURSE it's a dreadfully sad thing to happen, and the odd 'rip' or 'condolences to his family' might be understandable, but I just cannot fathom why the entire country is treating this delusional boy as if he were some sort of a god. Talk about idolising the dead like.
The whole thing is just very odd.

And on one hand, I do agree that it is a good thing that this topic has been brought up as it should give rise to educating the ignorant, but on the other hand, I'm just worried that it will just feed the ignorance.
Unfortunately, the demographics of AH do not accurately represent the general population and there is a long battle ahead to educate the masses.

mikom

flutterflye wrote: »

When I realised eventually that no, it wasn't some famous person, it was this boy - I was, and still am quite shocked!
Shocked that there has been SO much media attention, and SO many people banging on about how sad it is and what a courageous, lovely boy with such a great message blahdiblahdiblah - Seriously wtf is wrong with people?!
I mean yes, of COURSE it's a dreadfully sad thing to happen, and the odd 'rip' or 'condolences to his family' might be understandable, but I just cannot fathom why the entire country is treating this delusional boy as if he were some sort of a god. Talk about idolising the dead like.
The whole thing is just very odd.

And on one hand, I do agree that it is a good thing that this topic has been brought up as it should give rise to educating the ignorant, but on the other hand, I'm just worried that it will just feed the ignorance.
Unfortunately, the demographics of AH do not accurately represent the general population and there is a long battle ahead to educate the masses.

Thank you.
I thought I was the only "crazy" person thinking the same thing.

Acacia

Pre-amble-

I think Donal's heart was in the right place and I think his situation was desperately sad but...

I'm sorry, but I really don't think there could be a worse person to speak on the very serious issue of suicide than a terminally-ill child. The fact that he was given a public platform to broadcast his ill-informed (however well-intentioned) opinions, was just irresponsible.

There is enough stigma about mental health issues in this country. Nobody who is suicidally depressed is going to thank a sick 16-year-old for pointing out to them that life could worse and there is always someone to talk to. I'm sorry, but this chap did not have the right to to say that other people ( about whose individual circumstances he knows nothing about) are selfish, etc for taking their own life.

Naivety combined with a terminal illness does not make for someone who is a good position to advise someone about how they should be grateful for life. People speak about what he said as though he was on some sort of mission to stop suicide, but to me, it read more as though he was bitter / angry at the hand he been dealt, and was so was expressing his frustration at those who are depressed /suicidal. As understandable as that is, suicidal people do not need the bitterness of a dying teenager directed at them.

I've first-hand experience of suicide and even I would not be so arrogant as to be assume I have the right to 'angry' at people who decide to take their own life.

Tbh, I'm far more angry at those in the media/ society at large who lauded Donal for his opinion. They can now claim that they are openly discussing mental health issues when really they're just helping to propagate the same crap that's been doing rounds in this country for years- '' Just cop on and talk to somebody and stop being so selfish." Meanwhile, a few more people will die because mental health services are so dire here.

For people who have no idea what depression is like I would recommend reading ''Shoot the Damn Dog'' by Sally Brampton. You might then understand how what this lad was saying was completely unhelpful- even counter-productive- to someone who is suicidal.

RIP Donal.

jigglypuffstuff

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I don't think that he had anything valuable to contribute

If nothing else he got people talking..ALOT of people which is probably more than most of us here have done so yeah, id say thats a fair contribution

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

Ah, now, that's a bit harsh. I didn't agree at all with what he said, but I think his heart was in the right place

Interestingly, most of the people I know in IRL and on Facebook do not agree with what he said. That was a massive surprise for me.

100% agreed. the heart was in the right place which i think counts for alot. granted what he said didnt come across good, but like ive said above hes raised more awareness than anything else despite a poor choice of words

General General wrote: »

Privileged access to reality, have you? At least, will you concede that there might be some as yet unknown mechanism that effects some kind of lock on our apparent free will, even temporarily, in some possible world..?

Im aware of the implications of depression and its effect on free will thanks, what im referring to is the fact that universally there is a choice yes illnesses cloud the mind and compromise free will etc but the choice still exsists even if the person doesn't see it

3rdDegree

A lot of people here seen to be making excuses for suicide and suicidal people. As a matter of fact, you DO leave a horrendous mess behind when you commit suicide. You DO often destroy a number of lives.

I can certainly understand why someone who had a terminal illness would have and want to express the sentiments this child had. He desperately wants to live and sees someone else who seems to throw that away.

Depression is of course a serious illness. I'm not denying that. And people who are suicidal are in a very dark and empty place from which they see no return. But instead of everyone saying this kid should walk in the shoes of someone with depression, why not try to see it from his point of view. I think if many of us found ourselves in the same situation, we would feel the same as he did.

Finally, and slightly unrelated, I find that the media romanticize suicide. They should focus on the pain left behind rather that the glorifying the person, their legacy and the act.

Mardy Bum

Seriously those who have no idea about suicide and depression (evident by the posters above), you need to watch this lecture.

Depression is the worst disease you can get - Dr. Robert Sapolsky

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc

Paddy Cow

pone2012 wrote: »

You've either (A) Mistaken what ive said or (B) Twisted my words

In any event ill repeat them for you

Perhaps the perception of the person who considers/commits it makes them feel like there is no other choice or alternative. But isnt this the illness dictating to them and not the actual fact at hand? . Regarding suicide i would say in my own opinion there is always a choice. Its the persons perception of the world that tells them otherwise I think.

Take a read of what you've posted and what ive underlined, have a think about it and then you'll see what I said was the person may feel like they have no choice as this is their perception, However factually this is not the case

I've neither mistaken or twisted your words. Completely ignoring everything in my post and regurgitating your opinion as fact, does not actually make it a fact.

Paddy Cow

3rdDegree wrote: »

A lot of people here seen to be making excuses for suicide and suicidal people. As a matter of fact, you DO leave a horrendous mess behind when you commit suicide. You DO often destroy a number of lives.

I can certainly understand why someone who had a terminal illness would have and want to express the sentiments this child had. He desperately wants to live and sees someone else who seems to throw that away.

Depression is of course a serious illness. I'm not denying that. And people who are suicidal are in a very dark and empty place from which they see no return. But instead of everyone saying this kid should walk in the shoes of someone with depression, why not try to see it from his point of view. I think if many of us found ourselves in the same situation, we would feel the same as he did.

Finally, and slightly unrelated, I find that the media romanticize suicide. They should focus on the pain left behind rather that the glorifying the person, their legacy and the act.

And yes, I have had my experience with depression.

Jesus wept. What next. Will we be blaming the families left behind after someone commits suicide as being too selfish and self absorbed to notice that their loved one was struggling so badly they took their own life? Of course not as that would be ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as the idea that people are making excuses for suicidal people. Shock horror, people are showing compassion, understanding and empathy.

jigglypuffstuff

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I've neither mistaken or twisted your words. Completely ignoring everything in my post and regurgitating your opinion as fact, does not actually make it a fact.

Thats not an opinion its a clear fact and to make it very simple for you . if a person doesnt choose to commit suicide will it happen anyway?? thats a rhetorical question by the way...

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Jesus wept. What next. Will we be blaming the families left behind after someone commits suicide as being too selfish and self absorbed to notice that their loved one was struggling so badly they took their own life? Of course not as that would be ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as the idea that people are making excuses for suicidal people. Shock horror, people are showing compassion, understanding and empathy.

People have made excuses in this thread. its quite black and white really taking your own life isn't normal,rational,necessary or in any way or form acceptable.

Czarcasm

pone2012 wrote: »

People have made excuses in this thread. its quite black and white really taking your own life isn't normal,rational,necessary or in any way or form acceptable.

I have to disagree with you there pone, does this woman strike you as abnormal, irrational-

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/marie-fleming-appeal-on-assisted-suicide-rejected-1.1376352


She feels it is necessary, but it's only our own personal prejudices and moral values that say suicide and euthanasia isn't acceptable.

I know where you're coming from, but it's incorrect to say that the decision to take one's own life is always an irrational or abnormal one. It just doesn't square with your moral values is all.

General General

pone2012 wrote: »

Im aware of the implications of depression and its effect on free will thanks, what im referring to is the fact that universally there is a choice yes illnesses cloud the mind and compromise free will etc but the choice still exsists even if the person doesn't see it

Now the 'fact' is that 'universally there is a choice'?

When you say 'universally there is a choice', what do you mean?

It seems that you are saying that it's a choice that exists even if the person who could make the choice cannot see that choice (& thus cannot make that choice, as much as I can tell)..

How is that a choice?

3rdDegree

Paddy wrote: »

Jesus wept. What next. Will we be blaming the families left behind after someone commits suicide as being too selfish and self absorbed to notice that their loved one was struggling so badly they took their own life? Of course not as that would be ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as the idea that people are making excuses for suicidal people. Shock horror, people are showing compassion, understanding and empathy.

Blaming families? No. I never said anything like that. It's the families left behind that I have most sympathy for.

Precious flower

3rdDegree wrote: »

A lot of people here seen to be making excuses for suicide and suicidal people. As a matter of fact, you DO leave a horrendous mess behind when you commit suicide. You DO often destroy a number of lives.

I can certainly understand why someone who had a terminal illness would have and want to express the sentiments this child had. He desperately wants to live and sees someone else who seems to throw that away.

Depression is of course a serious illness. I'm not denying that. And people who are suicidal are in a very dark and empty place from which they see no return. But instead of everyone saying this kid should walk in the shoes of someone with depression, why not try to see it from his point of view. I think if many of us found ourselves in the same situation, we would feel the same as he did.

Finally, and slightly unrelated, I find that the media romanticize suicide. They should focus on the pain left behind rather that the glorifying the person, their legacy and the act.

And yes, I have had my experience with depression.

Yes because it will certainly help someone suffering suicidal thoughts to talk about what they're going through by constantly reminding them that their thoughts are evil and selfish and the mess they will leave behind for their families if they got through with it!! I mean my God would you tell an anorexic to get over themselves because their causing their family immense pain and suffering? These people need to be listened to without judgment and without the fear that the thoughts they are having are wrong and selfish. And no one glorifies someone who commits suicide, I'm not sure where you got that notion! People in that mindset feel there is no other way out! If anything it highlights are lack of resources to help people going through this mental illness! You may have had depression but you may not have had it so severe that you had those thoughts! Again, never judge until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes!

jigglypuffstuff

General General wrote: »

Now the 'fact' is that 'universally there is a choice'?

When you say 'universally there is a choice', what do you mean?

It seems that you are saying that it's a choice that exists even if the person who could make the choice cannot see that choice (& thus cannot make that choice, as much as I can tell)..

How is that a choice?

The simplest way i can explain it to you is this. If a person on the verge of commiting suicide stood before you and asked you if they had any other choice but to end their life. Would you be in agreement with them that it is there only choice? Or would you explain to them that they have a choice not to do so? Thats another rhetorical question as because you an clearly see the person has another option of course you'll tell them.

Czarcasm wrote: »

I have to disagree with you there pone, does this woman strike you as abnormal, irrational-

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/marie-fleming-appeal-on-assisted-suicide-rejected-1.1376352


She feels it is necessary, but it's only our own personal prejudices and moral values that say suicide and euthanasia isn't acceptable.

I know where you're coming from, but it's incorrect to say that the decision to take one's own life is always an irrational or abnormal one. It just doesn't square with your moral values is all.

Ill agree to disagree with you on this as i can see the angle you are coming from.

But you have brought an excellent article before me for analysis, thank you

I Would be inclined to say that this person who is clearly well educated is setting a far worse example for mentally ill people than Donal Walsh ever did. Shes here basically fighting a case to gain the right to commit suicide. What a great example to set. I wonder how many people who condemned Donal for his words would be in agreement that this is potentially severely damaging as if it ever passed it would create the idea that if a person is suffering enough they have a right to commit suicide, or even worse be assisted in it.

Precious flower wrote: »

Yes because it will certainly help someone suffering suicidal thoughts to talk about what they're going through by constantly reminding them that their thoughts are evil and selfish and the mess they will leave behind for their families if they got through with it!! I mean my God would you tell an anorexic to get over themselves because their causing their family immense pain and suffering? These people need to be listened to without judgment and without the fear that the thoughts they are having are wrong and selfish. And no one glorifies someone who commits suicide, I'm not sure where you got that notion! People in that mindset feel there is no other way out! If anything it highlights are lack of resources to help people going through this mental illness! You may have had depression but you may not have had it so severe that you had those thoughts! Again, never judge until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes!

He never said glorified he said people are making excuses, and he is correct if you scan back you will suicide defended in the thread

Mardy Bum

pone2012 wrote: »

The simplest way i can explain it to you is this. If a person on the verge of commiting suicide stood before you and asked you if they had any other choice but to end their life. Would you be in agreement with them that it is there only choice? Or would you explain to them that they have a choice not to do so? Thats another rhetorical question as because you an clearly see the person has another option of course you'll tell them.



Ill agree to disagree with you on this as i can see the angle you are coming from.

But you have brought an excellent article before me for analysis, thank you

I Would be inclined to say that this person who is clearly well educated is setting a far worse example for mentally ill people than Donal Walsh ever did. Shes here basically fighting a case to gain the right to commit suicide. What a great example to set. I wonder how many people who condemned Donal for his words would be in agreement that this is potentially severely damaging as if it ever passed it would create the idea that if a person is suffering enough they have a right to commit suicide, or even worse be assisted in it.



He never said glorified he said people are making excuses, and he is correct if you scan back you will suicide defended in the thread

You believe a person should be forced to live regardless of how much pain they are suffering and regardless of how severely incapacitated they are?

Again you need to watch the video posted above you clearly have no idea the relationship between suicide and depression. Its nearly an hour long but at least you will have an understanding of it rather than shouting some ill informed opinion.

jigglypuffstuff

Mardy Bum wrote: »

You believe a person should be forced to live regardless of how much pain they are suffering and regardless of how severely incapacitated they are?

Again you need to watch the video posted above you clearly have no idea the relationship between suicide and depression. Its nearly an hour long but at least you will have an understanding of it rather than shouting some ill informed opinion.

Forced to live?? everyone has a time to die, what gives anyone the right to do so before then?

Are of the opinion that life is just some thing that you can just decide thats it ive had enough is it?

Ive watched that video, and probably long before you did too, along with plenty of others not to mention a significant amount of reading, so know that im pretty well up on the subject thanks, Yes i sympathize with them, but not enough to agree that to take their life is in anyway ok

Czarcasm

Precious flower wrote: »

Yes because it will certainly help someone suffering suicidal thoughts to talk about what they're going through by constantly reminding them that their thoughts are evil and selfish and the mess they will leave behind for their families if they got through with it!!

While I agree with you PF that guilt tripping somebody who has suicidal thoughts serves no purpose, it doesn't hurt to try to get them to see that there are people that care about them and would be affected by their decision to take their own life.

I mean my God would you tell an anorexic to get over themselves because their causing their family immense pain and suffering?

This is why it's hard to have a discussion about mental health, simply because of the vast spectrum and degrees of the disorders and diseases involved. Suicide is not a disorder. Depression is a disorder. Anorexia is a disease. Lumping them all in together under the umbrella term "mental heath", only serves to further cloud the issues involved or murky the waters so to speak.

These people need to be listened to without judgment and without the fear that the thoughts they are having are wrong and selfish.

I completely agree with this, but then I'd put forward the opinion that everybody should be able to communicate their thoughts without judgement, fear or intimidation. Unfortunately human nature being what it is, doesn't often allow for that to happen.

And no one glorifies someone who commits suicide, I'm not sure where you got that notion!

I wouldn't be too sure about that PF. There are subcultures in society that not only glorify those who to take their own lives, but they celebrate suicide and their lives revolve around the idea. The portrayal and idolisation of Kurt Cobain as a martyr and anti-establishment, anti-hero in popular culture and celebrity suicide in general is a prime example of those who glorify the idea of suicide.

People in that mindset feel there is no other way out! If anything it highlights are lack of resources to help people going through this mental illness!

Can we separate out the issue of suicide from depression? Too many posters here are of the opinion that they must go hand in hand. They don't. A person can have suicidal thoughts and tendencies without ever suffering from depression, or a person can suffer from depression without ever having suicidal thoughts or tendencies. It's a hard thing to do, because of the amount of people that believe the two are intrinsically linked. But unless a person is willing to separate the two, they will never gain a better understanding of either.

You may have had depression but you may not have had it so severe that you had those thoughts! Again, never judge until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes!

Read over that paragraph again. Now read the first bit. Now read the bolded bit. You have just done what you are telling another poster not to do, when you yourself haven't as you put it- walked a mile in their shoes. My own take on that cliche is forget about walking a mile in their shoes, it can't be done. Tie yourself to them and think of it as a three legged race in which you have to coordinate your efforts and develop an understanding and a synergy, when one of you is about to trip, the other person senses it and offsets their balance to help you regain yours and keep you up. If you fall, you fall together. Help each other get back up. Get more people to link up and all support each other, and all together, you'll walk a hell of a lot more than a mile. Life is a marathon, not a sprint. The better you're able to pace yourself- the farther you'll go, and then you're all winners.

General General

pone2012 wrote: »

The simplest way i can explain it to you is this. If a person on the verge of commiting suicide stood before you and asked you if they had any other choice but to end their life. Would you be in agreement with them that it is there only choice? Or would you explain to them that they have a choice not to do so? Thats another rhetorical question as because you an clearly see the person has another option of course you'll tell them.

I wouldn't argue with them nor explain to them that they HAD a choice, if they said they didn't. I wouldn't see that as a constructive approach.

& if I did decide, for whatever reasons, that confronting the person about their having a choice was the best approach... well, I'd be ignoring possibilities that I know exist &, I suppose, I'd be relying on the person not having the will or powers of expression to argue back. I'm not sure why I would do this..

After all, as I've said elsewhere in the thread, there are people out there that insist that those who die of many physical illnesses do so as they choose not to drink the potion, hold the crystals, or chant the names of whoever or whatever. I wouldn't agree that such-&-such a person chose to die of heart disease as they wouldn't pray to Elvis while wearing slippers fashioned from Tibetan goat-hair.

You seem to feel that there are no questions worth considering about the objective or factual existence of there being a choice open to person X... or about some person Y's access to the nature of that choice open to person X, supposing as you do that it exists.

I don't understand why someone who has clearly thought a lot about this matter (& is a third level student of a course with an element of psychology) would refuse to concede some ground on this point..

I decided not to go for any rhetorical questions, as I don't think they're in this season.