Terminally ill 16-year-old takes his anti-suicide campaign to RTE

Turtwig

sashafierce wrote: »

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The problem is people who are depressed genereally can't do this. The world is closed and confined around them. And when they do achieve something (e.g having a kid, getting a job) that they think will make them feel better. It often doesn't. If anything that frustration from lack of pleasure or satisfaction that they feel after achieving something can make them worse.


Regarding suicide, no one is stating depression is the sole cause of suicide. But in Ireland it has been a very significant factor for, well, probably, since long before the inception of the State. People are taking issue though with the naive representation of suicide, depression and mental health in general. If someone was naive about cancer people would take issue it. It's the a similar thing here, a naivety has been shown towards mental health issues and that's got to be dealt with. Having misconceptions about any form of illness is always a bad thing. Depression isn't helped by the fact that an awful lot of people in Ireland thinks they get depressed but "they got over it."

sashafierce

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Seachmall

sashafierce wrote: »

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It's not the cancer that kills people, it's the heart stopping.

Turtwig

My name is URL wrote: »

What's positive about being insensitive towards people without depression?

So far in this thread people have called the kid names, insinuated that he has an agenda to push, accused him of causing untold amounts of distress for people, said he's ignorant of others, selfish and basically nasty in his views.

I guess since he's not depressed though that it's okay for people to attack and show their disdain towards him. Hypocrisy lives on in the hive-mind that is AH.

Can you quote examples of the following. In general everyone in this thread has been sympathetic towards this kid.
Also, please do not make the error of seeing the criticism of a person's views as a personal attack on that person.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

My name is URL wrote: »

What's positive about being insensitive towards people without depression?

So far in this thread people have called the kid names, insinuated that he has an agenda to push, accused him of causing untold amounts of distress for people, said he's ignorant of others, selfish and basically nasty in his views.

I guess since he's not depressed though that it's okay for people to attack and show their disdain towards him. Hypocrisy lives on in the hive-mind that is AH.

I haven't read the whole thread and have not commented on other people's posts other than the one I originally quoted.

sashafierce

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sashafierce

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bodice ripper

Major problem with suicide in the country? Lets give a 16 year old a platform on the national broadcaster to castigate depressed people for how lucky and selfish they are.

Does anyone give a **** what 16 year olds think about how adults should feel? Well informed as they are and all...?

My name is URL

Jernal wrote: »

Can you quote examples of the following. In general everyone in this thread has been sympathetic towards this kid.
Also, please do not make the error of seeing the criticism of a person's views as a personal attack on that person.

I'm not going to go through the whole thread again just to compile a list of quotes.

You yourself thanked a post calling the kid an unempathetic ass.. albeit in a snakey indirect sort of way

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84010309

Seachmall

sashafierce wrote: »

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I didn't see the show either, I'm going off the article linked in the OP. I'm sure the kid is well intentioned but his argument that he has no choice on whether or not to live and so others should embrace their life essentially boils down to "at least your not me".

He's well intentioned but naive. He's raised a lot of money for good causes but I don't think he should be given a platform to talk about this extremely complex issue.

starlings

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

I wish I could thank this a million times. You are right. People in general DO NOT WANT TO KNOW. They think you're being a moany hole or are just a bit down. Or that you 'shouldn't be' depressed, what with the great life you seem to have. That's the worst part of all of it for me. People in general are selfish creatures who want to make themselves happy. They don't want to hear your problems, they don't want to see your glum face, they don't want you to 'bring them down'. They can't comprehend that the despair you feel isn't the same as 'being a bit down' the way they get sometimes and that a pint or a walk isn't going to fix it. My own mother has point blank told me she 'doesn't want to hear it' and changed the topic to what she bought at Tescos. Most people are selfish, cold and have very little empathy for depressed people because depression isn't fun or entertaining. A lot of people just want the easy life where everything is nice and rosy. So no wonder depressed people feel totally isolated and alone.

you know what? Calling people selfish and cold IS being a moany hole. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your mother, but it doesn't follow that the majority of people are like that, including my lovely kind mother who helped my sister through depression. Your post is essentially slapping us in the face. Having a little tizzy and writing "people" off makes you sound like a spoilt teenager and makes others less likely to want to understand and help you.

Seachmall

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm not going to go through the whole thread again just to compile a list of quotes.

You yourself thanked a post calling the kid an unempathetic ass.. albeit in a snakey indirect sort of way

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84010309

Given what he's saying he's clearly failing to empathise with suicidal people and he is being a pompous ass by thinking his opinion on the matter is somehow valid simply because he has a terminal disease.


He's done a lot of good work raising €50,000 for Old Lady's Hospital for Sick Children, why he decided change his direction and talk about something he clearly knows nothing about is beyond me.

WittyKitty1

Clearly he hasn't accepted his situation as much as he would like the public to believe..

He makes it out as if it's just a throw away decision these people make on a whim to kill themselves..

Why isn't he on national television talking about how he has terminal cancer and how he is dealing with it and be a role model or spokes person for other teenagers who may find themselves in the same boat instead of trying to bring an end to something he clearly knows very little about.

Seems to me he is angry at people who 'appear' to have nothing wrong with their lives as he is only 16 and is told he is dying. He can never know what is going on in someones mind or their life so he shouldn't try.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

The majority of posters seem to agree that the kid`s comments were misguided.What is disheartening is the pervasive air of `Abandon all hope' unwittingly displayed by his sharper critics.If what he said was so damaging,then what could anybody on national TV say about suicide which would be positive?..or should suicide not be mentioned or debated on the airwaves?

sashafierce

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Seachmall

sashafierce wrote: »

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So do I, and that's a naive opinion and may act to isolate peers or make them feel guilty for feeling the way they do.

He's 16. He's allowed to have these opinions. It's those giving him a platform I have issues with.

WittyKitty1

Kareem Cool Soapbox wrote: »

what could anybody on national TV say about suicide which would be positive?..or should suicide not be mentioned or debated on the airwaves?

Majority if times i've seen suicide spoken about on TV it has been under the lines of 'oh what a crisis' ' something must be done' 'the stats are higher than ever'

We know it's a f*ucking problem! Everyone knows of someone who has been affected.

But bringing on a psychologist to sit and discuss and give out the message that there is infact hope and help that people can avail of if they are having such feelings of suicide.... But is that Saturday night television? Would that bring in the ratings? F*ck no! They want the 16 year old dying boy to come on and stir the **** with his uneducated opinions for a few tear jerking shots of the audience.

:mad:

bodice ripper

sashafierce wrote: »

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Great. then maybe we can get a severely depressed widower in his 60s to visit the kid in hospital, tell him how lucky he is to be leaving this vale of tears and he can be shocked into accepting his end. that is the way this works, right?

Steve O

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm not going to go through the whole thread again just to compile a list of quotes

Then excuse me if I say you're full of shit.

Turtwig

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm not going to go through the whole thread again just to compile a list of quotes.

You yourself thanked a post calling the kid an unempathetic ass.. albeit in a snakey indirect sort of way

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84010309

I don't know what the exact rule for thanking is. But I generally thank a post because it stops to make me think. Makes a quality argument for or against something. Is humorous. Or it carries a sentiment that I agree with. (At least for the interim). As the thread often progresses I may find I actually disagree with a post that I thanked thanks to the efforts of others.

Take this post for example.
I thought the first paragraph was very good. Hence I thanked it, even though I disagreed with pretty much the rest of the post.

For the post you linked you. I thanked it because of the statement.

Being terminally ill doesn't mean that someone can't still be an unempathetic ass.

Which is a very good concise way of putting things. It doesn't mean I think the boy is an unempathic ass. And I suspect if you were to ask the vast majority of thankers their views would be same.

90%+ of the posts on this thread have stated something along this lines that his intentions are good, it's just the delivery of the goods is actually a lot more complicated than we'd wish it to be. But alas, nothing is ever black and white.

starlings

starlings wrote: »

you know what? Calling people selfish and cold IS being a moany hole. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your mother, but it doesn't follow that the majority of people are like that, including my lovely kind mother who helped my sister through depression. Your post is essentially slapping us in the face. Having a little tizzy and writing "people" off makes you sound like a spoilt teenager and makes others less likely to want to understand and help you.

I was making the point that for many of us, people don't want to know. That's the reality. Especially for those of us who mask our depression really well. People don't understand just how serious it is. I hope for your sake that you don't ring someone when you're on the brink of doing something silly and they tell you to cheer up and stop bringing them down because they've had a hard day at work because that's what happened to me and that's what's happened to quite a few of my friends. It's human nature for most people to respond with 'well, we ALL have problems!' Not helpful.

You sound exactly like the kind of person I'm talking about, BTW. 'I'm not going to help you if don't ask nicely!' When you're in the middle of depression, you often DO come across as a moany hole. You often DO come across as self-centered. You often AREN'T the kind of person people want to be around. You ARE really trying and difficult. I have a few friends who suffer from severe depression and that's what they're like when they're really low. That's why the vast majority of people just don't want to know. It's much easier to write you off as moany/whiny/rude/immature than to actually have the strength to listen to you and help you. And I can't say I blame them, really. It's not easy. The fact remains is that for many people with depression, they DO NOT have people to turn to for help. Their family and friends might be nice people, but not have the capacity to understand, empathise and listen.

Odysseus

Kareem Cool Soapbox wrote: »

The majority of posters seem to agree that the kid`s comments were misguided.What is disheartening is the pervasive air of `Abandon all hope' unwittingly displayed by his sharper critics.If what he said was so damaging,then what could anybody on national TV say about suicide which would be positive?..or should suicide not be mentioned or debated on the airwaves?

What could people state? Well the following would be helpful for a start:

You are not alone, many people experience SI and their is nothing wrong with having such thoughts. It does not mean you are mad, bad or weak.

If you experience SI please contact a profession ASAP.

Whilst it may really feel like their are not other options, talking in a confidential setting can sometimes help people to see through the mass of dark thoughts they are experiencing.

Asking a professional for help is not a sign of weakness.

Experiencing SI does not mean you are a bad parent/son/husband/wife.

The are safe places for you to seek help where you will be listened to and not judged.

All of the above are very very basic and would be much more helpful than the points I read in the original interview.

titan18

sashafierce wrote: »

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Cool, you've had times you've felt very down. That's not ****ing depression, and it's stupid that people think it's even related to it. You can't go, oh I got out of that, just think of the future, and use that as some sort of measure of how you got out of it. It's not even close to the same thing

sashafierce

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beks101

I watched his interview last night expecting to cringe and be appalled at the subject matter, but I thought it was handled sensitively and it was good that it wasn't the focus of the entire interview.

Watching him, all I felt was sadness. He's this young, vibrant guy who's living such a cruel reality where his life and all his hopes and dreams have been snatched away at such a young age, and life has become black or white to him - you either get a chance at life or you have to die.

I think given the devastation of his set of circumstances, his young brain and the fact that he seems to be a proactive type of guy - look at all the fund-raising, the involvement in sports etc - it's understandable that he's taken this route of trying to reach out. He's just looking for the meaning in all of this, for a reason why he's facing this death sentence so unjustly, and my heart breaks for him and his family really because this is not the way. There is no way really, life is just cruel for no real reason and he got dealt a bad hand.

I think his campaign is highlighting the misinformation and ignorance that exists out there when it comes to mental illness and suicide - that it's something that someone can control, that it's a choice, a weakness, and not a biological disease as physiologically gaugeable as cancer, diabetes, or heart disease. I think this kind of thinking is residual of an Ireland not so long ago where suicide was a crime and related deaths were a massive source of shame for Irish families who would keep mum about the cause, pushing the problem further under the carpet. Shame, shame, shame, about a disease that thrives on that very emotion.

If this young man's campaign serves to air all these prejudices and false beliefs that SO MANY people hold about mental illness, and provides for an opportunity to educate people on what they know so little about, well then that's where the meaning in all of this will come from, as far as I'm concerned.

starlings

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

I was making the point that for many of us, people don't want to know. That's the reality. Especially for those of us who mask our depression really well. People don't understand just how serious it is. I hope for your sake that you don't ring someone when you're on the brink of doing something silly and they tell you to cheer up and stop bringing them down because they've had a hard day at work because that's what happened to me and that's what's happened to quite a few of my friends. It's human nature for most people to respond with 'well, we ALL have problems!' Not helpful.

You sound exactly like the kind of person I'm talking about, BTW. 'I'm not going to help you if don't ask nicely!' When you're in the middle of depression, you often DO come across as a moany hole. You often DO come across as self-centered. You often AREN'T the kind of person people want to be around. You ARE really trying and difficult. I have a few friends who suffer from severe depression and that's what they're like when they're really low. That's why the vast majority of people just don't want to know. It's much easier to write you off as moany/whiny/rude/immature than to actually have the strength to listen to you and help you. And I can't say I blame them, really. It's not easy. The fact remains is that for many people with depression, they DO NOT have people to turn to for help. Their family and friends might be nice people, but not have the capacity to understand, empathise and listen.

I'm glad you see how people might be taken aback by a rant that includes them in the "people in general" category.

I think it was you who posted earlier about the scarcity of professional services, which absolutely compounds the problem. I was going to ask if you had seen a doctor, and this is the first thing I would say to anyone who confided in me about depression. You might think that is me fobbing off the person's problem, but it's actually because people who are not depressed are not necessarily strong or qualified enough to deal with it -something we have been told time and again and blamed for on this thread. I can only do the listening and friendship if the edge is taken off the fury by medical treatment.

Otherwise, as in the headwreck of this thread, the undifferentiated anger at the human condition, the health services, at individuals who didn't/couldn't help, at someone who has not been depressed yet dares to voice an opinion on the matter, will turn to noise, and yes, "people" will stop listening.

Self-fulfilling prophecy. And we have not advanced an inch. Unless the venting here is cathartic to you.

Handsome Bob

Jernal wrote: »

Can you quote examples of the following. In general everyone in this thread has been sympathetic towards this kid.
Also, please do not make the error of seeing the criticism of a person's views as a personal attack on that person.

Sympathetic, but dismissive.

For what it's worth I do disagree with his opinion, but I'm not going to dismiss his opinion by patronisingly referring to him as a child.

My name is URL

titan18 wrote: »

Cool, you've had times you've felt very down. That's not ****ing depression, and it's stupid that people think it's even related to it.

How the fcuk do you know what somebody else means when they say they are feeling down? Are you a psychologist, or informed enough about the person to know that they aren't in fact talking about being depressed?

For all the talk of empathy in this thread some of you seem incapable of showing it yourselves.

Steve O

My name is URL wrote: »

For all the talk of empathy in this thread some of you seem incapable of showing it yourselves.

The irony.

titan18

My name is URL wrote: »

How the fcuk do you know what somebody else means when they say they are feeling down? Are you a psychologist, or informed enough about the person to know that they aren't in fact talking about being depressed?

For all the talk of empathy in this thread some of you seem incapable of showing it yourselves.

They're two definitions to me. Feeling down is feeling sad and it's something that passes after a week or so. Generally involves people sitting down and eating ice cream or chocolate and is something that happens to everyone, and is what as I saw earlier in the thread, what people refer to as depression being the common cold of the mental illness spectrum.

Depression is a proper clinical diagnosis, generally of a major depressive disorder kind and will usually involve being on anti-depressants for a period of a few months, at least. There are obvious huge variances in this, for example, I suffer from it and social anxiety disorder, I self-harm regularly, I've attempted suicide several times, and whilst I've never been able to go through with it, even in better times, the suicidal thoughts don't go away. There are others who won't go into the self-harm phase but still might have suicidal ideation etc, loss of pleasure in everything, disrupted sleep patterns, actually know of one person who lost all her hair over a period of time.

There was a video posted several times in this thread that is something people should watch in order to gain some understanding of depression.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84014212#post84014212

Link to the video is in that post.

Whilst I don't know the poster, saying feeling down if she in fact suffers properly from clinical depression is the wrong term to use, and is why depression is often seen as not a very serious illness as seen by the 16 year old, and several others in this thread.

sashafierce

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sashafierce

sashafierce wrote: »

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It's not nitpicking. There's a world of difference between feeling a bit down and being clinically depressed to the point of considering suicide. That's one of the issues depressed people face - other people think 'depressed' is their version of depression, which is really just feeling a bit down. Hence all the unhelpful advice like 'get out for a walk' or 'look forward to the future'.

sashafierce

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My name is URL

Steve O wrote: »

The irony.

How is it ironic? I'm not the one admonishing others for their lack of understanding and empathy.

titan18 wrote: »

They're two definitions to me. Feeling down is feeling sad and it's something that passes after a week or so. Generally involves people sitting down and eating ice cream or chocolate and is something that happens to everyone, and is what as I saw earlier in the thread, what people refer to as depression being the common cold of the mental illness spectrum.

Fair enough, I guess it's all a bit subjective, people aren't always going to use the exact same kind of language when talking about how they feel. Many people have said they've suffered from depression in this thread. I wonder how many of them are going by the "Depression is a proper clinical diagnosis" definition.

jigglypuffstuff

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

It's not nitpicking. There's a world of difference between feeling a bit down and being clinically depressed to the point of considering suicide. That's one of the issues depressed people face - other people think 'depressed' is their version of depression,'.

And how do you define how much someone is going through in their head based on the way they word something?

there are several subsections of depression. Surely you knew that?

I would assume what you speak of is major depressive disorder?

2Mad2BeMad

ina about a years time everyone will forget his story
so i dont see the point of him even talking about it
because hes just making people angry with the ****e hes talking about

Odysseus

sashafierce wrote: »

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To be fair we need to make a clear distinction between feeling down and experiencing a clinically diagnosed condition such as some form of depressive episode.

Feeling down or any similar expression merely refers to a person’s affective state. Experiencing a depressive episode is a clinically recognisable condition; it is something that permeates the person’s existence.

It goes beyond the affective state of feeling down/sad/lonely etc. It refers to a state that fully encompasses the person’s subjective state. It effects:

Their emotions:
Their thoughts:
Their ability to focus:
Their ability to engage with others:
Their ability to care for themselves:
Their appetite:
Their ability to sleep:

The list just goes on.

So I think we need to be very clear when we talk about such things. Some people understand that distinction, however, a lot don’t and that is why we need to be clear when we are speaking of depression.

If we are talking about feeling down say that, however, if we are talking about a depressive state then we need to say that and avoid minimising it by using such terms as feeling down/low/blue etc.

It is not nit-picking for the sake of it.

pone2012

pone2012 wrote: »

And how do you define how much someone is going through in their head based on the way they word something?

there are several subsections of depression. Surely you knew that?

I would assume what you speak of is major depressive disorder?

You can't, but the general attitude tells you a lot. I can generally see very easily whether someone means 'I need some chocolate ice-cream' kind of down or 'I've been thinking about killing myself' kind of down. It depends on the person, but when people say things like 'oh, I was really down last month after Ryan dumped me, but I'm grand now', I think it's safe to assume they're not suffering from clinical depression.

sashafierce

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jigglypuffstuff

Kallie Crashing Bongo wrote: »

You can't, but the general attitude tells you a lot. I can generally see very easily whether someone means 'I need some chocolate ice-cream' kind of down or 'I've been thinking about killing myself' kind of down. It depends on the person, but when people say things like 'oh, I was really down last month after Ryan dumped me, but I'm grand now', I think it's safe to assume they're not suffering from clinical depression.

Interesting...and what of those who are quite good to mask it, who may appear like all they need is an ice cream, yet on a regular basis feel the way you've mentioned

I just think its interesting how you said that you can easily tell, I am of the opinion that it isnt so easy!

sashafierce

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sashafierce

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pone2012

pone2012 wrote: »

Interesting...and what of those who are quite good to mask it, who may appear like all they need is an ice cream, yet on a regular basis feel the way you've mentioned

I just think its interesting how you said that you can easily tell, I am of the opinion that it isnt so easy!

I personally am very good at seeing the difference, I don't know whether that's because I suffer from depression myself and see the signs or I'm perceptive. I'm a teacher and have got help for several students who other teachers thought were just whiny teenagers. The average person, I agree with you, isn't good at all at seeing it, which is why people who are genuinely desperate are brushed off as moany holes.

tomthetank

pone2012 wrote: »

I just think its interesting how you said that you can easily tell, I am of the opinion that it isnt so easy!

Agreed, one of my best friends suffers from chronic depression and it's only recently that he divulged this information to me.

He's a very animated, outgoing, sociable, seemingly care-free individual, engaging, the life and soul of every party, highly intelligent, socially involved, accomplished and ambitious and he gets it bad.

I've known him ten years, travelled with him, sat up all night having heart to hearts with him and I never knew it until he told me during his most recent episode. He told me he "didn't want to be here anymore" and it scared me stiff, as another of our friends recently died by suicide, a girl similar in personality to him, and he was very badly affected by it.

This is what scares me about depression and suicide. You hear these stories too often. "He was the life and soul of the party...always laughing...happy go lucky" - all the while these people were going through their own personal hell and no-one would ever have guessed.

I'm quite an empathetic person, very emotional, have learned well from my own struggles and consider myself to be intuitive when "something's not right" with someone close to me and yet I had no clue.

That's scary. Scarier is the idea that this illness, which seems unspeakable to so many people who suffer with it, could be pushed further underground because that lack of understanding or empathy or tolerance of it as a legitimate disease in society is becoming more and more apparent, thanks to the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" brigade.

CaraMay

sashafierce wrote: »

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I would suspect untrained people would direct someone in distress to a professional as they would be scared of saying the wrong thing and possibly making it worse.

I've followed this thread in its entirety and now see that's its practically impossible for a 'lay person' to say or do the right thing.

titan18

My name is URL wrote: »

How is it ironic? I'm not the one admonishing others for their lack of understanding and empathy.



Fair enough, I guess it's all a bit subjective, people aren't always going to use the exact same kind of language when talking about how they feel. Many people have said they've suffered from depression in this thread. I wonder how many of them are going by the "Depression is a proper clinical diagnosis" definition.

Probably a few. People shouldn't say they have depression unless they actually have it. Being sad isn't having depression which some people go on. It just makes it much harder for people who actually have to get proper treatment

jigglypuffstuff

sashafierce wrote: »

Agreed no one knows how someone else feels, how could they know.

People dont care about others anyway they can get all defensive on here but who would really help someone in need in reality, very few, if you ask me this is why suicide is so common now. When people try talk to someone who isnt a professional they get brushed off as i believe somone else mentioned earlier on.

Thats very true

its often a case of diffusion of responsibilty. In others plain ignorance

In any event this "mindset" is brought about by the groupthink in ireland that those who show emotion are "weak" and should "get over it". This isnt the case mental health is as important as physical health

But then again thats Ireland for you....if you were to analyze the country from a sociopsychological perspective its almost scary what goes on!!!

Odysseus

CaraMay wrote: »

I would suspect untrained people would direct someone in distress to a professional as they would be scared of saying the wrong thing and possibly making it worse.

I've followed this thread in its entirety and now see that's its practically impossible for a 'lay person' to say or do the right thing.

Getting a person to see a professional can be a significant intervention, so I wouldn't say it is impossible.

Just listen to the person that is all that is needed, don't fall into the trap of trying to fix it, again just listen.

If you really listen to a person and get them to see a professional I think that should be seen as a very postive experience.

CaraMay

Yeah well that seems easy but the impression portrayed here by people who feel hard done by is that you can ask someone 50 times if they are ok and they yes but if you don't ask them 51 times or at a time they want to be asked then you are a useless friend / relative. It's easy to say people have to listen but if people insist on acting like all is ok then people start to assume all is ok. It's very complicated

starlings

CaraMay wrote: »

I've followed this thread in its entirety and now see that's its practically impossible for a 'lay person' to say or do the right thing.

practically impossible on this thread alright :rolleyes:, but thankfully not in real life. Never mind putting your foot in it by mistakenly using the wrong term or brushing someone up the wrong way because they're angry at someone or something in their past. Ask someone how you can help them and listen to what they say. Suggest they see their GP. Take each case as it comes, not according to an anonymous "expert" post you read on the internet.