Off the road notification bill 2013.

carchaeologist

Surpisingly there hasnt been mention of this on here, and i thought there would be...
So this is becoming Law in August of this year, apart from the blurb in the paper there is little hard facts on this apart from..

No more stamping in the Garda stations.

Purchasers of new and secondhand vehicles will have 10 days in which to tax their cars.

There will be no cost to declate your car off the road although there is provision in the bill for such a charge (which will no doubt be applied at a later date once we get used to the idea knowing the bastards up there in the dail)

You must make a 'Non use declaration' of between 3 and 12 months before the car is taken off the road.
Presumably by my interpretation of this it will have to be done annually, as in you make the 12 months declaration each year if your car is off the road for an extended period of time. Other than that, if its off the road say for the winter, just make the 6 months declaration etc etc.

It is no real issue to the ordinary Joe, apart from the tax dodgers, but how will the serial collectors fare out...I suppose there will be reminder sheets to either tax the car or declare it off the road sent out similar to the tax renewal forms now.

Once anything untaxed and/or unused up untill August is left off the system like the SORN in the UK untill it is retaxed and thus bought into the net it wont be too bad, otherwise it will be a total disaster trying to declare everything thats in your name off the road. Im not even sure how many cars are in my name!:o

steveone

once there's no "extra extra extra" on top of the tax charge for putting it back on the road- don't see it as too much of an issue, the classic is not a problem since its a reasonable amount (how long) and the daily gets done every quarter, but you're right about one thing, personally I've no idea what vehicles I've accumulated over the years..especially bikes that have been parted out . I have a bike that's never been taxed, it was imported and I got it as a resto project, it's in my name but never seen tarmac...the engine is still on the bench.

unkel

I read it too during the week. I don't think it is signed off yet. It sure doesn't make any sense

carchaeologist wrote: »

You must make a 'Non use declaration' of between 3 and 12 months before the car is taken off the road.

How the hell would someone know that his car will be off the road starting 3 months from now?

renofan

I've currently 4 cars off the road and all the latest would be since 2011. I can't actually remember when I took two of them off! I'm all for the new system though as too many people are abusing the current system.

carchaeologist

unkel wrote: »

I read it too during the week. I don't think it is signed off yet. It sure doesn't make any sense

How the hell would someone know that his car will be off the road starting 3 months from now?

This was the Indo getting it wrong, when you declare your car off the road you do so for 3, 6, or 12 months from the start of the next tax month.

unkel

renofan wrote: »

I'm all for the new system though as too many people are abusing the current system.

Aye, all of the present and future systems are stupid. Why not put the tax on the fuel? The polluter pays. Someone driving their classic car with a big engine a few thousand miles a year pollutes little, so pays little

Someone driving their rep box 30k miles a year pollutes lots so pays lots

Simple really and the collection of the tax (through fuel) is done for free. No admin costs to the state at all

And compliance is near 100%

Except for some RA cnuts like that fella who lives on the border...

carchaeologist

Here is the PDF of the bill.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2013/3713/b3713d.pdf

hi5

why a maximum of 12 months at a time, why not permanently like now in the UK?

macplaxton

hi5 wrote: »

why a maximum of 12 months at a time, why not permanently like now in the UK?

Because they're behind the times here and just did a bit of cut 'n' paste on the old UK version.

(As far as I can see SORN is not quite yet permanent in the UK. Whilst more or less a formality, they still have to amend VERA 1994 with the Finance Bill 2013, and that's due it's 2nd reading in the Commons on 15 April.)

corktina

hi5 wrote: »

why a maximum of 12 months at a time, why not permanently like now in the UK?

you have to renew the sorn in the UK too

w124man

Thanks 'carch' for posting this and a copy of the proposed bill. I think its a good idea and its about time something like this is actioned. I have no issues with it at all - except maybe the fee!!

bbsrs

What's the penalty /fine if you are caught driving a sorned vehicle after this new bill comes into law?

w124man

bbsrs wrote: »

What's the penalty /fine if you are caught driving a sorned vehicle after this new bill comes into law?

You dont need to know that becuase you would never do a thing like that ..... :rolleyes:

Probably the same as it is now plus they double your property tax into the deal!

bbsrs

w124man wrote: »

You dont need to know that becuase you would never do a thing like that ..... :rolleyes:

Probably the same as it is now plus they double your property tax into the deal!

At some rime in the future I may be in a will or won't I situation to use a car for a day and want to weigh up the use against the fine.

I just read its a class B fine and/or 6 months in prison but if you steal a sorned car , joyride it around town and crash it plus burn it out for fun and get caught they send you for rehab.

mb1725

hi5 wrote: »

why a maximum of 12 months at a time, why not permanently like now in the UK?

Probably so that they can charge you €25 a year not to tax it!

corktina

they aren't charging anything to sorn a car but sensibly have not ruled that out forever

The penalty for catching you driving a sorned car is likely to be a fine, pay the back tax, pay for recovery and pay for storage and penalty points

DaSchmo

carchaeologist wrote: »

So this is becoming Law in August of this year, apart from the blurb in the paper there is little hard facts on this apart from..

OP - where did you see this was becoming law in August? Have you a link?

macplaxton

DaSchmo wrote: »

OP - where did you see this was becoming law in August? Have you a link?

Read the WHOLE thread, there's a reference to "the Indo" and a link to the actual Bill.

So I'll have a butchers at the Indo online http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/drivers-who-fail-to-declare-car-off-road-will-face-hefty-tax-bill-29175523.html

2cv

"For three months after next August, motorists will have to regularise their affairs. All arrears must be paid, with interest of 8.3pc, and the car then declared off the road."

This is the bit that worries me.... :mad:

Does this mean that cars can only be declared off the road once they've been taxed?

Silvera

10 days to tax your newly-purchased vehicle???

Thats fine in an 'ideal world', but ....

- It takes 10+ days to get a vehicle registered in your name
- It can take 10+ days to get your new ins certificate
- What if the NCT has expired? (appointments can take months?!)

(N.B. - there are currently plans to re-introduce the requirement to have a valid NCT cert in order to tax a vehicle.....which I personally agree with btw).


In order to make this new 'Off The Road' system work efficiently -

A. You should be allowed transfer vehicle ownership via a post office
(e.g. When I bought a car in New Zealand in 2004, the owner and I simply went to a post office (on a Saturday morning), I paid c.$10, and the vehicle was transferred into my name there-and-then on their computer system (I was issued with a card reciept, and my new cert arrived 2 weeks later).

B. Motor insurance companies would need to be compelled to issue new certs in less that 10 days (and your previous ins company compelled to issue proof of no claims bonus directly to new ins company online).

C. NCT waiting-times would need to be drastically reduced

corktina

DaSchmo wrote: »

OP - where did you see this was becoming law in August? Have you a link?

it's a BILL, it's scheduled to become an ACT in August ,when it passes into law.

It's long overdue,the bit about "paying all arrears" is going to ruffle a few feathers....

sogood

What happens in the case of a car that I bought a few years ago, never driven,never taxed, but registered in my name. It's a donor car for my daily driver, as a useful "spare parts" department.

carchaeologist

2cv wrote: »

"For three months after next August, motorists will have to regularise their affairs. All arrears must be paid, with interest of 8.3pc, and the car then declared off the road."

This is the bit that worries me.... :mad:

Does this mean that cars can only be declared off the road once they've been taxed?

Indeed, this is the bit that puzzles me too. I have a number of cars that are off the road and will not be returning to the road any year soon.
How do you pay arrears on a car that has not been on the road for a while, and what about cars that are lying in sheds and barns that wont be registered as off the road.

How do they know the difference between a car thats driving around untaxed and one thats genuinely laid up for whatever reason? They cant?

What about the tax book traders? Many of those cars were not on the road for years so will there have to be massive arrears paid when the number is re taxed. Surely not, it would be a ridiculous thing to happen?
It will have to be cars that are taxed when the system is implemented that will be included in this, it cant work anyother way, otherwise its a mess.

galwaytt

carchaeologist wrote: »

Indeed, this is the bit that puzzles me too. I have a number of cars that are off the road and will not be returning to the road any year soon.
How do you pay arrears on a car that has not been on the road for a while, and what about cars that are lying in sheds and barns that wont be registered as off the road.

How do they know the difference between a car thats driving around untaxed and one thats genuinely laid up for whatever reason? They cant?

What about the tax book traders? Many of those cars were not on the road for years so will there have to be massive arrears paid when the number is re taxed. Surely not, it would be a ridiculous thing to happen?
It will have to be cars that are taxed when the system is implemented that will be included in this, it cant work anyother way, otherwise its a mess.

Same here.

Can I suggest ye write, phone or email the Dept and or your TD about this - and bloody pronto. No point talking amongst ourselves - the answer us in Kildare street.

I sent 3 letters today.

What are the car clubs doing about it ?

macplaxton

^^^^ I would say we all have an interest that this is drafted correctly and doesn't have unintended consequences.

Short title and commencement...This Act shall come into operation on such day or days as the Minister may appoint by order or orders generally or with reference to any particular purpose or provision and different days may be so appointed for different purposes or provisions.

So doesn't have a start date cast in stone, but will come into operation when the i's are dotted and the t's crossed (which has been suggested as "next August")

Regulations to remove difficulties
3.(1)
If, in any respect, any difficulty arises in bringing any provision of this Act into operation or in relation to the operation of any such provision, the Minister may, by regulations, do anything which appears to him or her to be necessary or expedient for removing that difficulty, for bringing that provision into operation or for securing or facilitating its operation, and any such regulations may modify any provision of this Act so far as may be necessary or expedient for carrying such provision into effect for the purposes aforesaid, but no regulations shall be made under this section in relation to any provision of this Act after the expiration of 2 years commencing on the day on which the provision comes into operation.
(2)
Where regulations are proposed to be made under this section, a draft of the regulations shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving the draft has been passed by each such House.

This reads to me as: "If we make a horse's arse of drafting the legislation first time round, we'll can come back and fiddle with it within 2 years of commencement to fix all the problems we should have seen coming if we drafted the law properly in the first place."

It would help if you presented certain scenarios to the Department / your TD which may be unfairly penalised due to unintended consequences.

w124man

Silvera wrote: »

- It can take 10+ days to get your new ins certificate

You need to go to AXA ..... the last time I did an insurance thing it took ten minutes to get a new cert! At worst you'll get it the next day

carchaeologist

macplaxton wrote: »

This reads to me as: "If we make a horse's arse of drafting the legislation first time round, we'll can come back and fiddle with it within 2 years of commencement to fix all the problems we should have seen coming if we drafted the law properly in the first place."

It would help if you presented certain scenarios to the Department / your TD which may be unfairly penalised due to unintended consequences.

Yes, if anyone reading this can have a chat with a TD do, its definatly in our best interests. We pay them enough!:rolleyes:
Least then we wont have to put up with two years of ****ups, and if they do still make a balls of it(which i have no doubt that they will do) at least we will have tried?

Silvera

w124man wrote: »

You need to go to AXA ..... the last time I did an insurance thing it took ten minutes to get a new cert! At worst you'll get it the next day

I am with AXA actually
...though its my first year with them:)

I'm just saying - on average - with most ins companies, it can take up to two weeks.

corktina

carchaeologist wrote: »

Indeed, this is the bit that puzzles me too. I have a number of cars that are off the road and will not be returning to the road any year soon.
How do you pay arrears on a car that has not been on the road for a while, and what about cars that are lying in sheds and barns that wont be registered as off the road.

How do they know the difference between a car thats driving around untaxed and one thats genuinely laid up for whatever reason? They cant?

What about the tax book traders? Many of those cars were not on the road for years so will there have to be massive arrears paid when the number is re taxed. Surely not, it would be a ridiculous thing to happen?
It will have to be cars that are taxed when the system is implemented that will be included in this, it cant work anyother way, otherwise its a mess.

well I imagine what they mean is you must make an off road declaration under the old system and pay the arrears IF ANY. If this isn't done old books will be rendered unusable for ringing (and other) purposes as the arrears will be payable back to "time immemorial"

I'd fill up a RF100, putting down the dates up to the start of the new system but none under the "current use" bit, with a nil total , get it stamped,and send it off with the new SORN under the new system

bbsrs

Maybe they could write into the bill a refund for unused tax if you sorn a car with tax remaining. Seems wrong that motor tax isn't refunded if unused.

carchaeologist

corktina wrote: »

well I imagine what they mean is you must make an off road declaration under the old system and pay the arrears IF ANY. If this isn't done old books will be rendered unusable for ringing (and other) purposes as the arrears will be payable back to "time immemorial"

This was my first thought, and no harm either, but what about Genuine Joe Soap, who has bought that 1971 Cortina that was in a shed since 1985, its hardly fair he should get nailed for back tax is it. So by that thinking every old car/registration should be in the same boat, they cant charge back tax because its unworkable in practice. Surely?!

corktina wrote: »

I'd fill up a RF100, putting down the dates up to the start of the new system but none under the "current use" bit, with a nil total , get it stamped,and send it off with the new SORN under the new system

Id say it would be no harm in filling out the RF100s as soon as it is certain that this Bill is going into Law, and before it does, then any car you have in your name will be pre-emptively listed as off the road and cant be touched for any arrears if they start getting sticky?

corktina

the purpose of my capitals IF ANY is that the car is genuinely off the road....he can show it to be long-term unusable. However I'd go with filling out an rf100 with a nil tax due shown and get it stamped.

hi5

I too have cars that are in my name and off the road, one hasn't been taxed since 1986 and its over 3 litres :eek:

The other problem I have is I've got 4 cars that I own for years now, that I have never put into my name which are off the road, the previous owner just handed me the tax book. So I presume can just transfer ownership when the time comes an I'll be ok.
A bit silly that a change of ownership can cancel out the previous owners arrears....or does it?

2cv

hi5 wrote: »

A bit silly that a change of ownership can cancel out the previous owners arrears....or does it?

I think it's perfectly reasonable that a change of ownership cancels out the previous owners arrears....

Imagine you bought a car which is taxed, or so you think. Then you find out that there are 5 years of arrears on it. Would you like to be responsible for 5 years of arrears, just because you didn't recognise a fake tax disk?

hi5

2cv wrote: »

I think it's perfectly reasonable that a change of ownership cancels out the previous owners arrears....

Imagine you bought a car which is taxed, or so you think. Then you find out that there are 5 years of arrears on it. Would you like to be responsible for 5 years of arrears, just because you didn't recognise a fake tax disk?

From the revenues point of view it seems silly. They'll have the previous owners details so they may decide to take it upon themselves to chase them up for the arrears, not that I'm wishing this on anyone, it just seems to be full of loopholes and badly thought through.
What's to stop family members changing ownership and immediately changing back every few months to avoid paying arrears a few hundred euros is a lot of money to people these days and they will go to the trouble.

2cv

hi5 wrote: »

What's to stop family members changing ownership and immediately changing back every few months to avoid paying arrears a few hundred euros is a lot of money to people these days and they will go to the trouble.

Well ultimately they'll end up losing money by doing that. What would a car be worth if it's got 37 previous owners on the book?

bbsrs

2cv wrote: »

Well ultimately they'll end up losing money by doing that. What would a car be worth if it's got 37 previous owners on the book?

Number of owners wouldn't bother me on an old car . I'd buy on condition .

oceanman

it sure is becomming a hard country to live in, this government has us beaten into the ground!

2cv

bbsrs wrote: »

Number of owners wouldn't bother me on an old car . I'd buy on condition .

I'm pretty sure that when you see 37 previous owners on a log book, you'll start asking questions

corktina

i'm sure the Gov would ask questions, if it turned out the car actually belonged to the same person all along and the only reason the name kept getting changed was to avoid tax, well, I think that's an Offence is it not?

bbsrs

corktina wrote: »

i'm sure the Gov would ask questions, if it turned out the car actually belonged to the same person all along and the only reason the name kept getting changed was to avoid tax, well, I think that's an Offence is it not?

It's called being tax efficient nothing illegal about avoiding where as not paying is an offence.

corktina

bbsrs wrote: »

It's called being tax efficient nothing illegal about avoiding where as not paying is an offence.

same thing

Grimreaper666

I'm sick to death of taxes in this country. I'm surprised they haven't devised a way of taxing rain..........

bugsntinas

i have a few vans that i have sitting around a few years now but i never had paperwork for them so where would i stand as i can't declare thm off road.

bbsrs

corktina wrote: »

same thing

It's not the same thing, for instance you can avoid a toll road by using an alternate route but if you drive thru the toll and don't pay it's illegal. Same with taxes if you know the alternate routes.,

bbsrs

bugsntinas wrote: »

i have a few vans that i have sitting around a few years now but i never had paperwork for them so where would i stand as i can't declare thm off road.

If you never had paperwork I presume they're not in your name so can't see it being of any consequence to you.

bbsrs

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

I'm sick to death of taxes in this country. I'm surprised they haven't devised a way of taxing rain..........

Move to Saudi Arabia , tax free and cheap cheap petrol.

carchaeologist

bbsrs wrote: »

It's not the same thing, for instance you can avoid a toll road by using an alternate route but if you drive thru the toll and don't pay it's illegal. Same with taxes if you know the alternate routes.,

If you are going to go to the hassle of trying to avoid paying a few quid on a toll by driving a longer and worse route more power to ya!
Same with constantly changing the name in the book, it's a load of extra hassle. And surely someone in the Tax office will spot something and ask questions?!

The fact that everything is computerised now makes cross referencing so much easier.

bbsrs

carchaeologist wrote: »

If you are going to go to the hassle of trying to avoid paying a few quid on a toll by driving a longer and worse route more power to ya!
.

I used the Toll as an analogy not as an example of what I do!

What I said was that avoiding something is not illegal.

2cv

bbsrs wrote: »

Move to Saudi Arabia , tax free and cheap cheap petrol.

Just don't expect the wife to drive the kids to school hey

2cv

carchaeologist wrote: »

And surely someone in the Tax office will spot something and ask questions?!

AFAIK changing ownership of a vehicle is free and there is no limit on the number of times a vehicle can change owners.

Maybe that would be an idea Everyone that has an old banger sitting around the yard changes the ownership of the car to a mate and vice versa, every week. See how they cope with the backlog