Season 3: Episode 2 * Have READ the books/SPOILERS

Gbear

username123 wrote: »

For me I think a woman would want her daughters released regardless of whether or not her sons lived. I saw her release of Jaime more as a vehicle to (a) allow the RW and (b) to force her to forgive Robb for abandoning his promise to marry the Frey girl and given (a) and (b), I dont mind whether she was off her head with grief and wanted her daughters back or simply just wanted her daughters back.

Each to their own. Im not a purist about it, I like change. It keeps me guessing what will happen later.

I think it's pretty clear that the mitigating ciruumstances around her actions excuse them somewhat in the book. They don't change the result but it paints the character in a better light.

Given what was at stake her decision to free Jamie was wrong. The lack of judgment shown is the same in both cases. The reasons for that lack of judgment are different though.
She isn't as much of a sympathetic character in the show because of what she has done. I'm not sure what's gained by doing that to her character.

It's a bit similar to the Sam situation. Although he is a craven and he broadly fails at his job in the books he does get some ravens away. By not doing that his character is lessened.

In either case it's not because they're in the books that I prefer the choices, it's because the way both characters are presented in the books makes them better people than in the show.

podgemonster

Prediction: I think Catelyn will slice Lady Tulisa's throat open rather than some random idiot Frey at the RW once it kicks off. I see no reason to for the Tulisa's character to survive and killing her is at least some consulation if she turns out to a Lannister spy.

Also I found Cathelyn Stark a frustraing unlikable character. Her actions are idiotic despite her good intentions. Her hatred for the innocent young Jon Snow is unreasonable, she wanted him at the wall, she wanted him to die. Her capturing of Tryion has repurcussion in Kings Landing with Jaime killing all of Neds Winterfell Guards and injuring Ned.

She nearly wastes away watching over Bran, despite Robb being left to run Winterfell. She made the deal with the Freys in first place in order to get the crossing, the list of conditions might have been better negiotiated.

She then releases Jaime who gets Roose on side and leads to the betrayal at the RW. All in the off chance that a female knight will bring the most recognisable & skilled Kingsguard all the way to Kings Landing and HOPE that Joffery, (the prat who lobbed off poor Ned's head) will show fairness and release Sansa and Arya (who isn't even there). She was liability from chapter 1.

username123

Gbear wrote: »

I think it's pretty clear that the mitigating ciruumstances around her actions excuse them somewhat in the book. They don't change the result but it paints the character in a better light.

Im inclined to agree with podgemonster above, I never viewed her in a positive light.

From the first time we meet her we are shown how badly she treats Jon Snow and she really doesnt redeem herself throughout.

So her actions regarding Jaime Lannister dont change that whether it be cos she thought her kids were dead or not.

I do agree about Sam though, I like book Sam better but I am hoping they redeem him later.

Gbear

podgemonster wrote: »

Prediction: I think Catelyn will slice Lady Tulisa's throat open rather than some random idiot Frey at the RW once it kicks off. I see no reason to for the Tulisa's character to survive and killing her is at least some consulation if she turns out to a Lannister spy.

Also I found Cathelyn Stark a frustraing unlikable character. Her actions are idiotic despite her good intentions. Her hatred for the innocent young Jon Snow is unreasonable, she wanted him at the wall, she wanted him to die. Her capturing of Tryion has repurcussion in Kings Landing with Jaime killing all of Neds Winterfell Guards and injuring Ned.

She nearly wastes away watching over Bran, despite Robb being left to run Winterfell. She made the deal with the Freys in first place in order to get the crossing, the list of conditions might have been better negiotiated.

She then releases Jaime who gets Roose on side and leads to the betrayal at the RW. All in the off chance that a female knight will bring the most recognisable & skilled Kingsguard all the way to Kings Landing and HOPE that Joffery, (the prat who lobbed off poor Ned's head) will show fairness and release Sansa and Arya (who isn't even there). She was liability from chapter 1.

Fair enough.

Still, no need to kick her when she's down. They did make her worse.

ronoc 1

decent episode but one thing that bugged me was the sword fight with jamie and brienne,in the book ,as far as i can remember,the reason brienne came out on top was that jamies chains were in his way and he was exhausted from his time in captivity.In the episode it seemed to me that brienne won because she was a better swordsman.

the more i think of it, wasnt the fight a draw because the fight was interrupted by the brave companions.ive read the books but i have such a bad memory.

Washington Irving

ronoc 1 wrote: »

decent episode but one thing that bugged me was the sword fight with jamie and brienne,in the book ,as far as i can remember,the reason brienne came out on top was that jamies chains were in his way and he was exhausted from his time in captivity.In the episode it seemed to me that brienne won because she was a better swordsman.

the more i think of it, wasnt the fight a draw because the fight was interrupted by the brave companions.ive read the books but i have such a bad memory.

When they were discovered by the Brave Companions Brienne had the upper hand, as far as I can remember she was holding his head underwater. Jaime held his own for most the fight but his fatigue, the manacles and Brienne's defensive skill got the better of him eventually.

ronoc 1

yea i think your right,might have to look up the books again or more lazily wikipedia.

Bookworm85

Cienciano wrote: »

That's exactly what I said when the scene came on! Has anyone sang The Bear and the Maiden Fair yet in the tv series?

Same here, as soon as I saw Lady Olenna all I could hear was "Louder Butterbumps!"

Not sure if it's been sung yet, but I think somebody sings it at the RW in the books , so we might get a chance to hear it then......

thehairyone

Honey-ec wrote: »

I see Alfie Allen spent the break in filming bulking up a good bit.

Pity he didn't get a few acting lessons while he was at it...

I thought his acting was alright in the first 2 seasons. but i thought his acting in the torture scene was cringingly bad.

I remember complaining about the reasons catelyn let jaime go in last years/season/episode thread. not much can be done about it now. cant see why theyve deviated from the books. i agree with others, i think it cheapens her character and makes her look fairly foolish.

Im wondering what they will do with her after the RW. I dont think the casual viewer will take kindly to a "zombie" catelyn. I have seen mutterings by non-book readers in other places about the magic stuff being slowly introduced to the series. wouldnt be surprised (or disappointed if im honest) if they do something different in this regard, maybe an emotional breakdown could explain how she turns out rather than a zombie breakdown...

thehairyone

podgemonster wrote: »

Prediction: I think Catelyn will slice Lady Tulisa's throat open rather than some random idiot Frey at the RW once it kicks off. I see no reason to for the Tulisa's character to survive and killing her is at least some consulation if she turns out to a Lannister spy.

I dont think Lady Talisa is a spy. I know theyve done her character very differently than the books (Jeyne Westerling) but I think the vagueness of her origins (noble from Volantis) is fairly odd. I think she may well be a princess in her native land and as such might provide some interesting storylines in later episodes/series.

Added:
Saw this in the other thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsTVnZm9hFg

Paints a very compelling argument and rubbishes my statement above. Would make it more like the books which is great. will discuss over on the other thread.

pwwillia

They may go with Robb and Talisa being killed at the red wedding and Catelyn becoming a more vengful leader of the company without banners rather then a resurrected zombie like character? whatever way they do it i'm enjoying the season so far.

Cienciano

Bookworm85 wrote: »

Same here, as soon as I saw Lady Olenna all I could hear was "Louder Butterbumps!"

Not sure if it's been sung yet, but I think somebody sings it at the RW in the books , so we might get a chance to hear it then......

Some legend cut all the bits from the audiobooks and put them together

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U6mtBUKP3k

Mickeroo

pwwillia wrote: »

They may go with Robb and Talisa being killed at the red wedding and Catelyn becoming a more vengful leader of the company without banners rather then a resurrected zombie like character? whatever way they do it i'm enjoying the season so far.

Really hope not, they've toned down the fantasy aspects enough as it is imo. Bad enough that Bran is the only warg out of the Starks.

Since they've shown Melisandre to have some crazy powers I'm sure they'll have Thoros keep his. It's all part of the dragons benig born and bringing magic back to the world.

Pretty sure there are no nobles in Volantis, just rich merchants and stuff. It is supposed to be one of the 'Free Cities'...

(this is one of the changes that annoys me, Jeyne Westerling is important in the books damnit!)

ibarelycare

Bookworm85 wrote: »

Forgot to say,

Where was Butterbumps? I was looking forward to hearing "The Bear and The Maiden Fair" too.

I am dissapoint

None of the fools appear in the show, it's disappointing!



I don't know how people keep up with who all the characters on-screen are I feel so stupid!! And I've read the books! But I still get really confused. Who was it that spoke to Theon at the end of the torture scene and told him he'd help him??




Anyway I enjoyed that episode. Was great seeing Arya, and Jaime and Brienne. Can't wait for more of The Hound. I was surprised that they had the Theon torture scenes so early, although I think he would definitely be missed if they left it until the ADWD season. I wonder how they'll play it from here though.

I LOVE Jack Gleeson. I think he plays Geoffrey impeccably. He portrays the arrogance of Jeoffrey so well, but you can see the insecurity underneath it all.

Bran has changed so much! He's getting so grown up! He's nearly as tall as Jon now (although Kit Harrington is quite short). I wasn't mad about Jojen Reed for some reason, I couldn't quite put my finger on it.

ibarelycare

Oh and what was the point of the scene with Catelyn talking about Jon having the pox? That's not in the book was it? Is it just to make her character more likeable before killing her off?

username123

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty sure there are no nobles in Volantis, just rich merchants and stuff. It is supposed to be one of the 'Free Cities'...

(this is one of the changes that annoys me, Jeyne Westerling is important in the books damnit!)

Yeah, I dont know where they are going with this change but presumably they have a reason for it.

username123

ibarelycare wrote: »

Who was it that spoke to Theon at the end of the torture scene and told him he'd help him??

Ramsay Snow I presume.

ibarelycare

username123 wrote: »

Ramsay Snow I presume.

But would Theon not already know what Ramsay Snow looks like?

username123

ibarelycare wrote: »

But would Theon not already know what Ramsay Snow looks like?

Im not sure I get you, how?

They changed that storyline and had Dagmar Cleftjaw knock Theon out while the Bastard of Boltons men were blowing horns outside the gate.

Or do you think Theon may have met him earlier in life? I dont think so because Roose Bolton only took him on when he was 12 or so (and in the books everyone is younger) so Theon could easily have never seen him.

Am I way off what you are thinking?

ibarelycare

username123 wrote: »

Im not sure I get you, how?

They changed that storyline and had Dagmar Cleftjaw knock Theon out while the Bastard of Boltons men were blowing horns outside the gate.

Or do you think Theon may have met him earlier in life? I dont think so because Roose Bolton only took him on when he was 12 or so (and in the books everyone is younger) so Theon could easily have never seen him.

Am I way off what you are thinking?

Oh I was thinking of the book version, where he obviously knew Ramsay. I completely forgot they changed it. I intended to catch up on the two seasons before this one started, but only got halfway through season 2! Thanks

username123

ibarelycare wrote: »

Oh I was thinking of the book version, where he obviously knew Ramsay. I completely forgot they changed it. I intended to catch up on the two seasons before this one started, but only got halfway through season 2! Thanks

Ah now I get ya!

Yeah Robb said that all the iron born would be free to go so long as Theon was left behind and Roose Bolton said he would send his Bastard to Winterfell to do that. Presumably Boltons people offered Dagmar Cleftjaw the deal secretly so he betrayed Theon and left him there while the rest of the iron born went home.

Scuba Ste

ibarelycare wrote: »

Oh I was thinking of the book version, where he obviously knew Ramsay. I completely forgot they changed it. I intended to catch up on the two seasons before this one started, but only got halfway through season 2! Thanks

Theon doesn't know Ramsay in the books. Reek from the Winterfell dungeon is Ramsay and Theon never knew him until he revealed himself later.

I presume Ramsay is going to 'befriend' Theon in the TV version for a while until he reveals who he truly is. Maybe they'll escape together and Bolton will then flaw him and break him down similar to the book version.

I don't think they could really leave Theon out for a season or two so they'll need to fill in his story a bit.

username123

Scuba Ste wrote: »

I don't think they could really leave Theon out for a season or two so they'll need to fill in his story a bit.

Yeah, I think we will probably see more of this type of thing in upcoming seasons. Its one thing to leave a character off out of a book for a long time but it doesnt work as well on screen, people would be going "where did he disappear to".

I think tv has to show some continuity from season to season with characters - what will they do when they get to book 4 and we dont see many of the current characters for ages?

Cookiemunster

Scuba Ste wrote: »

I don't think they could really leave Theon out for a season or two so they'll need to fill in his story a bit.

They did the same last season with Robb and Jamie. The producers said they created extra scenes for both and moved things forward from ASOS as neither really appears in ACOK.

Gbear

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Theon doesn't know Ramsay in the books. Reek from the Winterfell dungeon is Ramsay and Theon never knew him until he revealed himself later.

I presume Ramsay is going to 'befriend' Theon in the TV version for a while until he reveals who he truly is. Maybe they'll escape together and Bolton will then flaw him and break him down similar to the book version.

I don't think they could really leave Theon out for a season or two so they'll need to fill in his story a bit.

It's not like they'll need to make anything up. We hear about Theon's torture from his POV. It's just retrospective.
No harm in showing it happen "live".

Except that it kinda spoiled the surprise for book readers who hadn't got to Dance.

Mickeroo wrote: »

Really hope not, they've toned down the fantasy aspects enough as it is imo. Bad enough that Bran is the only warg out of the Starks.

Since they've shown Melisandre to have some crazy powers I'm sure they'll have Thoros keep his. It's all part of the dragons benig born and bringing magic back to the world.

In the book it's not clear early on that they're all wargs though, is it?
It only gets revealed for Jon when he shacks up with the wildlings I think.
Arya

only gets it when she starts training.

Sansa has no wolf so that doesn't happen for her. Robb never cops on to it before he dies.

ibarelycare

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Theon doesn't know Ramsay in the books. Reek from the Winterfell dungeon is Ramsay and Theon never knew him until he revealed himself later.

I meant that Theon knew what Ramsay looked like. He revealed himself at the end of book 2, so going by the books, at this stage of the story Theon would have known who Ramsay is.

Cookiemunster

username123 wrote: »

I think tv has to show some continuity from season to season with characters - what will they do when they get to book 4 and we dont see many of the current characters for ages?

They'll have to amalgamate book 4 and 5 and tell the story in sequence. The events at the start of book 4 occur at the same time as the events at the start of book 5.

EDIT Just found this from D.B. Weiss from a while back. Well… “A Storm of Swords” is too long to fit in a single season. And as readers know, “A Feast for Crows” and “A Dance with Dragons” takes place during roughly the same time frame, so we’ll have to fold those together
http://screenrant.com/game-thrones-season-3-4-5-details-aco-160936/

Sleepy

I've read the books that way (chronological order, hopping between books at various chapters) and it works well, improves the pacing quite a lot actually. The only downside to it is the reveal ADWD

that Doran Martell has sent Quentyn on a quest to arrange a marriage to Daenarys and, as such, that Dorne are on her side.

username123

Cookiemunster wrote: »

EDIT Just found this from D.B. Weiss from a while back. Well… “A Storm of Swords” is too long to fit in a single season. And as readers know, “A Feast for Crows” and “A Dance with Dragons” takes place during roughly the same time frame, so we’ll have to fold those together
http://screenrant.com/game-thrones-season-3-4-5-details-aco-160936/

Ah very good, I was thinking they might have to do something along those lines alright.

I see a future marketing opportunity for the books to be republished with chapters in chronological sequence!

Mickeroo

Gbear wrote: »

In the book it's not clear early on that they're all wargs though, is it?
It only gets revealed for Jon when he shacks up with the wildlings I think.
Arya

only gets it when she starts training.

Sansa has no wolf so that doesn't happen for her. Robb never cops on to it before he dies.

It's well established that both Jon and Arya are Wargs during A Clash of Kings. Jon enters ghost a few times when he's along with the Halfhand (though not on purpose). He wakes screaming when Ghost gets attacked by the eagle for example. One of the first things Sixskins says when he sees Jon and Ghost is that he's a strong skinchanger though he is both untrained and unaware of his abilities.

Arya has plenty of wolf dreams through both ACoK and ASoS, and I'm pretty sure it's through Nymeria's eyes she sees that Catelyn is dead. AFFC & ADWD

She doesn't start conciously doing it until she joins the faceless men though like you said. I'm surprised they haven't alluded to her dreams to try and sow the seed for later series though, same with Jon, if the theories about his "death" turn out to be true.

Even the first book had a lot more emphasis on the direwolves than the show did iirc.

beardedmaster

The more cool and important the Direwolves become, the worse I feel for Grey Wind and Lady

jones

Yeah i dont think the show has really pushed the whole direwolf thing (apart from Bran and his "dreams") Seems strange as they are putting giants etc in it now so surely the direwolves are an important part of the story

podgemonster

beardedmaster wrote: »

The more cool and important the Direwolves become, the worse I feel for Grey Wind and Lady

I always felt that the killing of Lady (done excellently in the show) intensified the vunlerability of Sansa as a character. She lacks the spirit and inner strength of the other stark children.

Though following Dance

i think she might be finding herself again

Mr.Prodston

pwwillia wrote: »

They may go with Robb and Talisa being killed at the red wedding and Catelyn becoming a more vengful leader of the company without banners rather then a resurrected zombie like character? whatever way they do it i'm enjoying the season so far.

If we don't get to see Undead Cat then Mr.Prodston will personally hire The Golden Company to hunt down Beinoff and Weiss and bring me their heads.

The Theon/Reek/Ramsay scenes are going to be brilliantly gory and gruesome and while it will ruin the surprise of what Theon went through after years of waiting we get to see him changing into what he becomes.

While this is episode one related I only got a chance to watch them yesterday but the way they did the Jon meeting Mance really disappointed me. It was one of my favourite scenes from all of the books, especially finding out that Mance was in Winterfell right at the start.

ArmaniJeanss

Must admit I always read it as 'not quite killed' Cat who was saved by medical attention just before dying but still has some scars, rather than 'died and was brought back' Cat.
I prefer it that way (I don't like brought back from the dead plots) so would be happy if thats the way the writers go.

Mickeroo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Must admit I always read it as 'not quite killed' Cat who was saved by medical attention just before dying but still has some scars, rather than 'died and was brought back' Cat.
I prefer it that way (I don't like brought back from the dead plots) so would be happy if thats the way the writers go.

How did you read it like that? She had her throat slit and was found floating in a river without receiving any medical attention only to be resurrected three days later by magic.

They might go that way in the show though, since Dondarrion doesn't look anywhere near as beat up as he is in the books judging by the pictures but there's no question that she died in the book.

Mickeroo

Mickeroo wrote: »

How did you read it like that? She had her throat slit and was found floating in a river without receiving any medical attention only to be resurrected three days later by magic.

They might go that way in the show though, since Dondarrion doesn't look anywhere near as beat up as he is in the books judging by the pictures but there's no question that she died in the book.

+1

She floats down a river for a few days and that is why she is supposed to look so gaunt in the books if I remember correctly?

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Must admit I always read it as 'not quite killed' Cat who was saved by medical attention just before dying but still has some scars, rather than 'died and was brought back' Cat.
I prefer it that way (I don't like brought back from the dead plots) so would be happy if thats the way the writers go.

In this book series there's an awful lot of magical stuff like that, she's not the only character who has been brought back from the dead, and there's likely to be more...so dunno how you're managing with that :P

Washington Irving

Mickeroo wrote: »

How did you read it like that? She had her throat slit and was found floating in a river without receiving any medical attention only to be resurrected three days later by magic.

They might go that way in the show though, since Dondarrion doesn't look anywhere near as beat up as he is in the books judging by the pictures but there's no question that she died in the book.

Has Dondarrion been shown this season? I don't remember seeing him. Just in this vid from 7:58 (best clip at 8:10) he seems quite mangled, one eye and a slit throat.

Possibly some slight season 3 spoilers but it was uploaded on the official Game Of Thrones channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlmTBjE2kgg

From vid

Melisandre meets Thoros and co? I don't remember that in the books, how/where could she meet them? Didn't she just go straight to the Wall with Stannis?

Deleted User wrote: »

+1

She floats down a river for a few days and that is why she is supposed to look so gaunt in the books if I remember correctly?

I think it's because her body had began to rot, plus spending several days in water wasn't going to have pretty results. That's how I picked it up anyway

ArmaniJeanss

Mickeroo wrote: »

How did you read it like that?

Cause I chose to, I guess. :P

Mickeroo wrote: »

She had her throat slit and was found floating in a river without receiving any medical attention only to be resurrected three days later by magic.

Meh, only a flesh wound. The Freys pathologist just didn't notice her vital signs were still good.

***
Lol, I know its 'wrong', its just the way I choose to read her chapters after this (think shes only been in two, epilogue of ASOS and a Brienne in AFFC).