ATC Student Programme 2013 *Warning post 195*

Sitec

Disaster, seriously was considering this. How can they expect a person to live on nothing for two years? Even 100e per week would be a huge benefit.

aw

Just referring back to an old thread from the last round in 2010...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055987235

Just reading though and they appear to have removed the requirement to repay €50000 of the training fees from your starting salary.

This would certainly account for a good portion, €12k p.a., of the difference in starting at €51k and €32k. €1000 per month was the repayment but obviously your salary would be the full €51k after four years instead of remaining at the much lower scale.

I also see that the new scale goes up as far as €88540 whereas the old scale was capped at €78209.

2010 Information wrote:

Basic starting salary for controllers after full qualification is just under E51,000, with 27% shift work, this ends up being just under E65,000.

The current basic Salary Scale for Operational Air Traffic Controllers is:
€50,805 – 52,413 – 54,027 – 55,642 – 57,249 – 58,869 – 60,475 – 62,088 –
€63,703 – 65,310 – 66,925 – 68,536 – 70,150 – 71,764 – 73,371 – 74,983 –
€76,599 – 78,209

All of the above points are exclusive of 27% shift allowance. All Students who successfully complete all aspects of the Student Controller Programme and are offered a contract as an Operational Air Traffic Controller will start at the minimum of the salary scale €50,805.

Stormhawk88

Just for anybody who does decide to go for this I would suggest reading the fine print of the contract after the passing the selection process.

"you may be offered appointment as an Air Traffic Controller. "

This suggests that the training contract will be open ended and not an actual offer of employment with the actual offer of employment coming at the end of the training depending on staffing requirements at the time.

I say the this after being on the wrong side of one of these contracts before and not a very nice experience to find yourself lumped out on the street after expecting a job. It would also be rough after 2 years of savings being spent to train. I also do not know what the prospects would be of finding another job after something like that happening as you would have to travel abroad and that is not for some people. Another point to note is the amount of on the job experience that would be gained so that if this situation did happen how employable you would be in say the U.K. or Europe.

Hope I don't sound too pessimistic to those who do want this but its better to be prepared for these situations.

Tenger

Stormhawk88 wrote: »

Just for anybody who does decide to go for this I would suggest reading the fine print of the contract after the passing the selection process.

"you may be offered appointment as an Air Traffic Controller. "

This suggests that the training contract will be open ended and not an actual offer of employment with the actual offer of employment coming at the end of the training depending on staffing requirements at the time.
.....

My thoughts too.....I expect this is a hedge on something going badly wrong and their budget being slashed in the next 12-18 months. I expect they plan to employ all successful candidates but want to have a 'get out clause'

aidan24326

Pass it then move to Spain lads. Apparently controllers over there earn serious money, with salaries in excess of 200-250K not unusual.

mcgjohn

If you pass after two years and just leave you are required to pay training costs of €190,000. You have to agree to work for IAA for 7 years

APM

aidan24326 wrote: »

Pass it then move to Spain lads. Apparently controllers over there earn serious money, with salaries in excess of 200-250K not unusual.

Not to mention learning Spanish fluently. According to Spanish AIP, official #1 language used in ATC in Spain is Spanish. English is only #2

jimbomalley

APM wrote: »

Not to mention learning Spanish fluently. According to Spanish AIP, official #1 language used in ATC in Spain is Spanish. English is only #2

English is the language of atc worldwide period. And now that the Spanish controllers are officially part of the military and cost cutting measures are in place, nobody new in the future will earn these kind of figures. Plus the working conditions and quality of equipment in Spain are very poor compared to what we have in Ireland

Edit. The money figures are in response to a previous post

Lenmeister

aidan24326 wrote: »

Pass it then move to Spain lads. Apparently controllers over there earn serious money, with salaries in excess of 200-250K not unusual.

You serious? That's big money I'd no idea it could go so high!

APM

jimbomalley wrote: »

English is the language of atc worldwide period. And now that the Spanish controllers are officially part of the military and cost cutting measures are in place, nobody new in the future will earn these kind of figures. Plus the working conditions and quality of equipment in Spain are very poor compared to what we have in Ireland

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/navegacion-aerea/en/Page/1078418725129/?other=1078418781525#ancla2

Spanish AIP - 4.4.1 In addition to the constant requirements in this paragraph,
Spain requires that applicants for an ATC licence be in
possession of a university degree of diplomado or licenciado
or have passed the first full year of a higher-degree university
course.
Applicants are also required to demonstrate fluency in spoken
and written Spanish and English without any difficulty being
observed in oral expression which could adversely affect radio
communications.

beazee

APM wrote: »

Applicants are also required to demonstrate fluency in spoken and written Spanish and English without any difficulty being
observed in oral expression which could adversely affect radio
communications.

Same story in Poland or Germany. GA pilots are allowed to use national language when communicating with ATC.

jimbomalley

APM wrote: »

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/navegacion-aerea/en/Page/1078418725129/?other=1078418781525#ancla2

Spanish AIP - 4.4.1 In addition to the constant requirements in this paragraph,
Spain requires that applicants for an ATC licence be in
possession of a university degree of diplomado or licenciado
or have passed the first full year of a higher-degree university
course.
Applicants are also required to demonstrate fluency in spoken
and written Spanish and English without any difficulty being
observed in oral expression which could adversely affect radio
communications.

How does this demonstrate that spanish is officially #1 for atc comms? Because thats what you said. English is the official language of atc. All icao member state require controllers to pass english competency tests for a reason. Nothing unusual about a spanish speaking country requiring its controllers to speak spanish

notharrypotter

English may be the official languiage for communications, however most rules and regulations will be written in spanish.

Hence there will be a requirement for a high level of ability to Speak/Read/Write in spanish as a prerequsite to gaining employment.

Then there would be the issue of domestic services which would involve an element of pleasure flying who never intend to leave spain and would not be profficent in English.

ICAO publications availible in English Chinese French Arabic Russian and Spanish.

Aviation English only I believe for enroute and a mix of Aviation English and National language would be used in domestic and terminal services.

notharrypotter

There were ads recently for staff in Spain under contract to a crowd called "Ferro Nats"

It was covered at length elsewhere

From what I can see the new hires here are on significantly lower than the figures quoted above.

APM

jimbomalley wrote: »

How does this demonstrate that spanish is officially #1 for atc comms? Because thats what you said. English is the official language of atc. All icao member state require controllers to pass english competency tests for a reason. Nothing unusual about a spanish speaking country requiring its controllers to speak spanish

I can't find the exact reference but I will continue to search thru my old documents, it was something I was shown from the AIP from an instructor when I was living in Spain.

But flying through Spanish airspace most days you will hear Spanish ATC talking Spanish to Iberia, Vueling etc, likewise in France almost all communication with French ATC and Air France will be in French.

mcgjohn

Any ideas on how to finance 2 years unpaid training?

the beerhunter

mcgjohn wrote: »

Any ideas on how to finance 2 years unpaid training?

maybe the person who can answer that is the kind of resourceful go-getter the iaa are now looking for!

adamski8

mcgjohn wrote: »

Any ideas on how to finance 2 years unpaid training?

start saving...........20years ago

Kayad

At the moment its looking like raiding the savings, selling the car and maybe taking a few hints from Breaking Bad. But its what I want to do.

aidan24326

Lenmeister wrote: »

You serious? That's big money I'd no idea it could go so high!

Yes I'm serious. In fact a minority of senior Spanish controllers actually earn significantly more, up to 800K in some cases. I'd say that will change though as a Spanish minister only recently lambasted them as being privileged, untouchable, overpaid etc But yeah 250K is about the average. Why Spain decided to pay them so much more than the going rate I don't know. I mean it's a difficult and stressful job and deserves an above-average salary, but when you have guys on 800K then it's clear that changes are needed.

notharrypotter

Yes I'm serious. In fact a minority of senior Spanish controllers actually earn significantly more, up to 800K in some cases

Thats some money,
but do you have a link to salary scales or similar,
the Ferrol NATS thread seems to be very low pay

popsynesbitt

Hello All,
really disappointed about the way in which the new recruitment drive for ATCs has taken place. I have a friend who joined in 07/08 and he has confirmed that IAA have maintained that his group would be the last to have training allowance and obviously they let one or two more groups through but finally they have stopped paying it. Also they are making quite a statement out of the fact that there 'may' be a job offer at the end. They are just treating the next group purely as students and based on what he tells me there are only requirements for a few more ATCOs in next few years. He has basically warned me to be careful as it may be a huge commitment with a need to go abroad to gain employment. But you will have fantastic training and a license to do a fantastic job. So it changes things a bit I guess. Certainly for me its disheartening as I was really wishing the days away unit a new competition would start and this has made it so much harder. Was willing 100% to move to Limerick and follow my dream but I just cant see it being viable considering how much commitment is needed with no guarantees of a job after. Tough decisions! Best of luck to those who apply!

henrysellers1

Hi,
What level of candidate are IAA looking for? I know the minimum requirement is leaving cert or equivalent, and that essentially they are looking for a certain 'type' of person that would suit the role. But in terms of intelligence, what are we talking? 550+ points in leaving cert? Any thoughts welcome.

the beerhunter

henrysellers1 wrote: »

what are we talking? 550+ points in leaving cert?

it has *nothing* to do with leaving cert points. an aptitude test does what it says on the tin. there's plenty of dumbasses out there with a load of points from book learning that are bugger all use in the real world.

on the subject of "transfer to spain, you'll be a millionaire":
1. the figures are out of date and in any case did not "average" as high as mentioned in previous posts.
2. while the skills are transferable and ratings are recognised internationally, there aren't many opportunities for experienced controllers to up-sticks and move elsewhere when they fancy something different.

in my opinion it looks like terms and conditions on this intake have been defined by accountants who don't want to be paying trainees who could be turfed out after a few bad simulator runs, or whose mad simulator skillz don't transfer to real traffic carrying real people a few months down the line.

beazee

henrysellers1 wrote: »

But in terms of intelligence, what are we talking?

http://www.eurocontrol.int/articles/skills-required-be-air-traffic-controller

adamski8

popsynesbitt wrote: »

Hello All,
really disappointed about the way in which the new recruitment drive for ATCs has taken place. I have a friend who joined in 07/08 and he has confirmed that IAA have maintained that his group would be the last to have training allowance and obviously they let one or two more groups through but finally they have stopped paying it. Also they are making quite a statement out of the fact that there 'may' be a job offer at the end. They are just treating the next group purely as students and based on what he tells me there are only requirements for a few more ATCOs in next few years. He has basically warned me to be careful as it may be a huge commitment with a need to go abroad to gain employment. But you will have fantastic training and a license to do a fantastic job. So it changes things a bit I guess. Certainly for me its disheartening as I was really wishing the days away unit a new competition would start and this has made it so much harder. Was willing 100% to move to Limerick and follow my dream but I just cant see it being viable considering how much commitment is needed with no guarantees of a job after. Tough decisions! Best of luck to those who apply!

If you pass the exams and arent offered a job straight away can you work abroad with the qualification? And if so what if iaa offer you a job when you have taken another?

A320

surely there is some allowance from social welfare?? not that I am interested anymore

dsane1

Hi all,

I am still interested in this programme, yeah the lack of funding will be a huge issue for me but I'd still like to at least get to the stage where it would be a problem.

I sat the exams last time in 2010 and got through to the first interview stage (and blew the interview). I am probably completely wrong here, but was there something that meant I shouldn't have to resit the exams?

tipp2chicago

dsane1 wrote: »

Hi all,

I am still interested in this programme, yeah the lack of funding will be a huge issue for me but I'd still like to at least get to the stage where it would be a problem.

I sat the exams last time in 2010 and got through to the first interview stage (and blew the interview). I am probably completely wrong here, but was there something that meant I shouldn't have to resit the exams?

I think it's only if you've sat them in the last two years - at least according to the application form on the IAA site anyway.

Go for it - what's the worst that could happen?

Quebec Delta Mike

Hi,

For anyone interested in Spain! A friend (TWR ADI) recently was accepted for one of the Tower positions at Fuerteventura. ICAO Level 4 Spanish obligatory! He is doing pre-OJT training near Madrid, expecting to start some time in May-June. His salary will be €27k + 10% shift allowance, for the initial three years...:rolleyes:

QDM