ATC Student Programme 2013 *Warning post 195*

jackofalltrades

8 working days from the 17th.

trix123

I thought the aptitude tests were very strange, if you didn't go to school in a while you would be stuck!!! It wasn't really an aptitude but a test of science and maths!!! Very unusual. Most mechanical tests have parts that need to be reassembled not questions on physics. There were questions in there that unless you did physics you simply could not answer!!!! Very biased test, although the abstract and spatial awareness was fine. Exactly what it says it is.

From reading the other posts people seem to think just because the money is lower that it won't attract the right candidate?? I completely disagree, I know alot of ATCO's my dad been one of them, they worked for very little money and infact, if a person is trained correctly they should be able to do the job (passing the aptitudes etc)
Most ATCO's in the last few years were teachers, lawyers etc and left their jobs solely because of the money that was being paid and the high status of the jobs. Most are there for the money and unless you have a real interest in the job you will fail due to lack of motiviation and you won't be alert or good at your job. That is a fact. Motivation and interest are key to getting the best people for the job that go above and beyond what is required. ATC attracts many candidates alot of whom, have no idea what the job entails, they are chancing their arm and will freely admit to it, and these people are usually the ones that won't stick with it or fail or leave or retire early/. It is not a job for the faint hearted.
5 working days down, only 3 more to go and everyone will know their fate!!!!!!:eek:

Not2good2

trix123 wrote: »

Most ATCO's ... are there for the money

Why does anyone do any job? You could probably change that to ALL ATCO's!!

trix123 wrote: »

and unless you have a real interest in the job you will fail due to lack of motiviation and you won't be alert or good at your job. That is a fact.

What are you basing this on? Can't speak for them all but I'd be fairly sure out of the last several SCP classes very few students had a strong desire to become an ATCO or even any interest in atc before applying, many didn't even have an interest in aviation! They're still there...

notharrypotter

Most ATCO's in the last few years were teachers, lawyers etc and left their jobs solely because of the money that was being paid and the high status of the jobs

It would be more correct to say that many of these perceived prestige positions are no longer there because of the economic climate.

I'd be fairly sure out of the last several SCP classes very few students had a strong desire to become an ATCO or even any interest in atc before applying, many didn't even have an interest in aviation!

Consequently many of the recent SCP groups were seeking what they believed was a "safe Government job".

I reckon that many got a bit of a shock when they actually worked shift and discovered that Christmas day and New Years day had to be worked too.

From what I understand some 20 ATCOs have resigned over the last few years and that there is a significant number of people retiring too.

abbeyrock

Has anyone heard anything back, I did the test, brain is still spinning from it and pretty doubtful that I was in the top group but just curious to see if anyone has heard anything, maybe luck will be on my side;)

ciajewia

The results for the pencil and paper tests are out now for anyone who is interested

ExtaticFob

ciajewia wrote: »

The results for the pencil and paper tests are out now for anyone who is interested

I presumed the results would be sent to applicants?

ciajewia

They were sent via e mail you either got accepted into the second stage or finished in the competition

ExtaticFob

Sorry, that impatience for you! Thanks. Just got the email a few minutes ago. No word of an order of merit or how you actually performed in the aptitude tests. I took part in a similar process for another job and this was the case. Does anybody know if this happens at any stage in this process?

noahcian

got the email too and called for the friday at 2:30pm don't know about the merit thing but apparently they will tell you after a couple of weeks if you ring them.

Contrails

Pleasantly surprised here. Didn't think i was up to scratch but happy i get to sample the FEAST. Should be interesting.

Top Dog

Surprised at the tight time-scale between the FEAST and DART tests. Is it that they're leaving their equipment in the Gresham rather than having to remove & re-install perhaps?

trix123

well I got called too.
But I still think the whole system over here is bullsht. The UK mean business. They have a list of things and if you got em, don't even think of applying, and you must do an online test first. The exams over there are not related to school or academic physics and maths, which I think is very discriminatory to those for example girls who went to all girl schools and hadn't the option to do physics. My application is on-going with NATS as they did a huge recruitment drive back earlier this year.
I would like to know how were we selected? Was it the top 700? Or was it an average of the 4 in total? Or what? There is no explanation anywhere...makes you wonder who get chosen!
Someone I know worked as an assistant and he was in a lower class than me and got in to ATC...not uncommon unfort and very typical Irish!
Anyway, here we go for another flaking!!!

colm911

Got my email today unfortunately I didn't get called back but was told told in the email to check them constantly as people pull out so fingers crossed but won't keep my hopes up. Best of luck to everyone that got called back though.

trix123

Sorry to hear that.. Did you do physics? I am science teacher so luckily I had some physics but thought it so unfair, they were not proper Aptitude tests at all, I mean if they wanted to do that they should have checked our knowledge on wind speed and direction too.!!
Yes people do pull out all the time some get other job offers, others go to the UK and others onto college.

trix123

Sorry to hear that.. Did you do physics? I am science teacher so luckily I had some physics but thought it so unfair, they were not proper Aptitude tests at all, I mean if they wanted to do that they should have checked our knowledge on wind speed and direction too.!!
Yes people do pull out all the time some get other job offers, others go to the UK and others onto college.

trix123

I am interested to know, did those that get called have LC physics? or do the LC in the past 2-4 years? of longer?

noahcian

did it in '95...did not really use since

adamski8

So its probable to say only 1000 went to the firsr round and 700 went through, seems a nearly pointless test if so.

The small time between feast and dart is a bit inconsiderate to those working and have to get time off last minute

Top Dog

Isn't 700 just a number plucked out of thin air as an example and nothing concrete at all?

trix123

I think the whole thing is a farce. The aptitude is completely discriminatory and why all the secrecy? The mechanical tests should be about assembling shapes labelled and unlabelled not physics, NATS give sample papers and answers.
Also for Radar you obviously need to be able to very quickly discriminate between the differences in height and distance between planes which is what is tested in the aptitude with NATS this was not done in Ire. The job of an ATC is the same in all countries so why such discrepancy in the testing?? Why when I rang HR they told me that if I qualified in NATS that I couldn't come over to Ire?? That is illegal. We are in Europe now so like any profession, where you trained once in Europe it should be recognised and is obviously standardised. I don't get why Ire make things soo difficult for people...I mean the air traffic over here is nothing compared to Europe so why is the testing so difficult and more importantly so unrelated to the actual job?

Mr Pseudonym

I don't agree that one who did Physics would have a direct advantage for the Mechanical Reasoning component (indirectly, they perhaps have learned to think in mechanical way). Can anyone, who does, remember any questions which they felt are illustrative of their position? I felt, at times, that I read too much into questions as a result of my having done it. Take question 1 (screw vs nail with hammock): I answered "C - both the same" as I reasoned that the force of hamock is either perpendicular to the nail or very close to it, and that any horizontal component is likely to be tiny. With hindsight, I imagine I was wrong. Numerical Reasoning component definitely favours those just out of education: both because of familiarity with operations of long multiplication and division (which allows for speedier answering), and because of need to deal with fractions (there being several questions involving which).

Trix123; will you please say what was on that list of questions which you mentioned it was necessary to complete for UK? How does the on-line test work? Wouldn't cheating be a concern? Thanks

trix123

I am very annoyed about that test as if I had known I could have looked over the maths and physics again and like that over thinking, especially the microwave and the bloody metal spoons!!!!
Maths defo LC standard which is not aptitude as knowledge of fractions is an acquired knowledge same with physics , with angles and microwave etc etc, just such a bad test I can't tell you, especially as a teacher I can see how it is completely discriminatory to aptitude and then the secrecy around it all!!!!

NATS if you have a degree you do an online test, a series of numbers and letters come up onscreen and you must match within 9 seconds. You must answer what seems like a mammoth of questions!!! I mean so many pages about yourself. So basically they are looking for innate and inherent quick thinking and ability to discriminate which is what ATC is all about, not this nonsense of adding fractions!!! and microwaves!!
Then the paper and pencil has the same topics as Ire but not the same content likewise that ability to quickly discriminate numbers is a must have in radar! They give you sample paper and answers and you can reapply again for the next round. If you get to do the tower your training is a lot shorter than radar but in Ire you must do all the training, which is also BS.
I see now that they NATS, are talking about another "online" test, so maybe that is the aptitude online? Or else they are talking about the first test online to encourage more people. I don't know, they are very very very bad at responding to you , as in they never do!
The air traffic in UK sorts the men from the boys in Ire, but go for it, nothing to lose, and so much opportunity to travel and move up the ladder, whereas in Ire it is really who you know.. And I know that for a fact..

Top Dog

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I don't agree that one who did Physics would have a direct advantage for the Mechanical Reasoning component (indirectly, they perhaps have learned to think in mechanical way).

I'd have to agree. I don't think physics helped me at all. Granted its a long time since I studied it, but if I had to pick subjects which I felt may have helped in the Pencil & Paper test then I'd have to say engineering, technical drawing and honours maths were the most useful.

Mr Pseudonym wrote:

I felt, at times, that I read too much into questions as a result of my having done it. Take question 1 (screw vs nail with hammock): I answered "C - both the same" as I reasoned that the force of hamock is either perpendicular to the nail or very close to it, and that any horizontal component is likely to be tiny. With hindsight, I imagine I was wrong.

I think you may be right :eek: (about the over-thinking). I looked at that one and reasoned that the threads of the screw would offer greater grip compared to the (relatively) smooth surface of the nail - thus if a force was exerted on the end of both the screw would put up more resistance and as a result offer the stronger mounting point.

trix123

Ya but at the end of the day , they were related to physics angles, speed around a corner, rowing, microwave and conductivity of metals, the list is endless... If you didn't do physics you didn't stand a chance. The numeracy also, closely linked to LC and not innate maths ability and that is the point of aptitude tests. Those aptitude tests by Pearson are for schools and are administered a lot in the states but for adults the normal tests are by can't think of the name it begins with S... Ill think of it and put it up...
ATC is about quick thinking and being able to numerically discriminate between the levels of planes passing and that is vital and that is what NATS tests TWICE!!
So before you even do the paper and pencil aptitude test they test your speed and ability to find I think its a sequence of 7 or 9 numbers (its long!!) within 7-o seconds and if successful then you progress onto atptitude where again they test your ability to find the sequence (that skill so vital I can't fathom why or how it wasn't on the Irish test since they train everyone in radar) then onto feast etc etc

Top Dog

trix123 wrote: »

If you didn't do physics you didn't stand a chance.

I'm afraid I'd have to strongly disagree with you there. I did Ordinary level physics in the leaving cert, and barely scraped a pass due to a less-than-useless teacher. Can't see how that would have been much use at all to me.

trix123

SHL their the ones that do most of the adult aptitude tests...and there is nothing in mechanical reasoning based on any physics unlike our one we sat

trix123

ya but passing the LC physics and knowing basic physics for an aptitude test like the one we did is completely different, LC physics has graphs etc
This test was all physics completely without any doubt. Mechanical reasoning is about assembly and mechanics not physics and like I wrote Pearson (who were they suppliers of thepencil and paper we did) is for secondary and high school!! And the one we sat proves my point...
Just can't fathom where they think the link in knowledge of fractions and microwave etc is related to ATC.

noahcian

Does anyone know how to go about preparing for the FEAST? are there any websites that offer comparable experiences to what we will face in these tests?

trix123

<snip>

noahcian

hi, trix123. do you feel like selling a copy of it? thanks very much

trix123

jeez ill look for it, I have it on my desktop, will look for dvd, as I got it last year when I was going for NATS, then got call for paper and pencil in Feb but hold now.
i

trix123

I have 2 dvd's on my desk top, is there any way I can send them onto ye? by email? would be handy you'd get them by tomorrow??
if there is let me know asap, they're sitting here looking at me...
I know we are all in it together and its "a competition" etc but to be honest, if I am good enough Ill get through to the DART regardless of who I help. And these are not for the DART as far as I know.
But have the heading, angles, etc

Mr Pseudonym

Thanks for the info on Nats, Trix123.

noahcian

yeah. Thank you very, very much. can send u my email? Do i post my email here?

smallfort

I never did LC physics managed to get through to next round though so I'm delighted!!!
Just wondering if trix 123 made it through or can you apply or are you already an ATCO??
Does anoyone want to tell me what exactly this FEAST is??i'm a bit worried...

Kayad

I know the tests seamed a bit off the wall but having completed the selection process up to the final interview with 3 other ANS ( eurocontrol, sky guide & nats) its not a whole lot stranger than any other one.

smallfort wrote: »

Does anoyone want to tell me what exactly this FEAST is??i'm a bit worried...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEAST_test

Funny enough wikipedia gives a pretty good description of the FEAST test. As I've already done it within the last 2 years I don't think I've to sit it again.

Todd Toddington III

trix123 wrote: »

I think the whole thing is a farce. The aptitude is completely discriminatory and why all the secrecy? The mechanical tests should be about assembling shnpes labelled and unlabelled not physics, NATS give sample papers and answers.
Also for Radar you obviously need to be able to very quickly discriminate between the differences in height and distance between planes which is what is tested in the aptitude with NATS this was not done in Ire. The job of an ATC is the same in all countries so why such discrepancy in the testing?? Why when I rang HR they told me that if I qualified in NATS that I couldn't come over to Ire?? That is illegal. We are in Europe now so like any profession, where you trained once in Europe it should be recognised and is obviously standardised. I don't get why Ire make things soo difficult for people...I mean the air traffic over here is nothing compared to Europe so why is the testing so difficult and more importantly so unrelated to the actual job?

You really are talking a load of bollix about a subject you clearly have a poor understanding of. The aptitude is discriminatory against people who are as a rule not suited to the job ffs.
Being able to read a radar screen correctly is a skill that only a few can do in busy traffic so y risk wasting training resources?
The reason you cant just move from England to Ireland is that all airspace has a type rating, you would need to do a conversion course. Plus the fact you need minimum five years under your belt to be considered experienced means you are no good to anyone until then.
Irish airspace is fluid, sectors change as traffic changes as we have an ocean interface and oceanic tracks change daily due to the jet stream. We, as well as the Portuguese have no routes in our skies meaning aircraft get direct routings to exit points and traffic levels do get quite complex at times, don't belittle what we do by saying traffic is not comparable to Europe, it is per sector
The assessments are difficult because, as someone else put it quite well, "this is not a video game"

adamski8

trix did you not get through, very bitter style posts. The exam had nothing to do with physics as is studied in JC and LC just more basic cop on imo! And at that mechanical reasoning is only 1/4 sections. So anyone that didnt get through cant blame that alone.

i thought it was a very very easy exam only time being the limiter. If anyone felt different id be very concerned if they were in control of air saftey

Todd Toddington III

trix123 wrote: »

The air traffic in UK sorts the men from the boys in Ire, but go for it, nothing to lose, and so much opporureity to travel and move up the ladder, whereas in Ire it is really who you know.. And I know that for a fact..

Again you are talking through your arse. Not one of my classmates got through because they knew someone.
What opportunities are there to travel? The only places hiring are in the Emirates and while the money is good there is no job security re a medical condition ~ losing your licence ~ and no pension.
And that macho bull**** about sorting men from boys? That crap is a bit old school ffs, there are people on these planes, it's not a big dick competition. Think you may want to look else where for a job bucko

Contrails

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

You really are talking a load of bollix about a subject you clearly have a poor understanding of. The aptitude is discriminatory against people who are as a rule not suited to the job ffs.
Being able to read a radar screen correctly is a skill that only a few can do in busy traffic so y risk wasting training resources?
The reason you cant just move from England to Ireland is that all airspace has a type rating, you would need to do a conversion course. Plus the fact you need minimum five years under your belt to be considered experienced means you are no good to anyone until then.
Irish airspace is fluid, sectors change as traffic changes as we have an ocean interface and oceanic tracks change daily due to the jet stream. We, as well as the Portuguese have no routes in our skies meaning aircraft get direct routings to exit points and traffic levels do get quite complex at times, don't belittle what we do by saying traffic is not comparable to Europe, it is per sector
The assessments are difficult because, as someone else put it quite well, "this is not a video game"

My favourite thing about these forums; when people chip in who actually have a notion. Thanks for the bit of insight Todd.

andy_g

Trix123 please do not offer any resources to cheat the system continuing to do so you risk a ban!
Same goes to anyone offering to get things from any user to cheat the system will receive a forum ban.

If you are willing to cheat you are risking lives in the future.

Mr Pseudonym

Is the moderator aware that there is an extensive training period followed by examinations before one qualifies? I think it is something of an over-reaction to suggest that lives could be endangered by cheating at the second stage of a five stage application process.

I also don't think that the purchasing or sharing of a freely available product could ever be construed as cheating.

Was Todd Toddington's berrating of Trix123 really appropriate? Any regular user of forums will know that a lot of what is posted is likely to be either false or what one believes to be false. I struggle to think of any comment that would see me react in a similar fashion.

trix123

I am not offering resources to cheat the system!!!! Good God almighty!! I am shocked and horrified at the level of abuse and bad language used against me! If ye want to curse fine, I can too, and say Bollocks with proper spelling.

You cannot "cheat" unless I gave you the actual feast test and that is NOT what that DVD is about... as I said NATS give you sample papers and here nothing..Why??? There is no explanation. It is ridiculous, I am qualified in Guidance and Counselling so know about that Pearson and what is done in other countries. I wasn't told how we got through, yet another big secret, perhaps it is an average of 4? Then people could do well on all 3 other tests..I don't know

I do know about ATC and I have been in radar rooms and the tower in Heathrow and Paris and Liverpool and Ireland many many many times!
I know Mech R was 1/4 ...


The computer simulation is available to buy...Everyone and their dog is aware of it. There are HPAT courses and other similar courses to help desensitise people to that type of questions that come up and Feast is no different. Like I said it is not for the DART and it is not cheating.

After the exam there were people who spoke about what exactly came up in the exam. It makes no difference as you can either do the test or you can't. So is that cheating???? Does it matter when there are about 5 other tests to take????

I am not belittling the job of controllers here, listen to what I said, the traffic in Europe is massive compared to here,

I wasn't talking about the 5year experience I know all that but I have the email to prove what was said up in Dublin. They said and I quote , if you qualify in UK you need to resit the tests from the beginning from the aptitude and feast like everyone else... Unquote!!!

I have physics as I already said, but there were 5 other women who didn't and they felt it was discriminatory as they had no clue about angles and microwave and metal conductivity. That is what they said to me after the test.


My father in ATC and travelled loads and another one of my relatives also did.

Like I said you can either do the Feast or you can't , offering the DVD's from reputable training companies is not giving anyone a head's up at all, I was trying to help people it is in my nature, it is part of my job, and I think it wouldn't make a difference to anyone if we all got the dvd as on the day of an exam there are other extraneous factors that can hinder a person to pass. But if I can't for fear of getting a ban and to all other people who contact me or PM me, then I can't unfortunately. I was going to give them free, makes no difference to me. Just sorry I couldn't help.

eurofoxy

its not cheating, the only one being cheated is yourself, the FEAST test is designed to test your aptitude for the job and to handle lots of inforamtion in a stressful environment, if you practice this you can and will fool the test, however this lack of aptitude will be found out once you start actual training, so which is worse getting a mail from the iaa saying you dont progress or failing after spending 6 months of unpaid training chasing a dream which will never come to fruition?

And stop talking about how nats do things, its actually the nats system that is antiquated, the feast test was designed from the ground up and is used by most ansp's accross europe to test potential candidates.

trix123

Nothing can prepare you for the job!! Even the training is very different to the job with actual people, so lets get that straight.
As I said before, if the thread was read, I know a lot of people who trained years ago, in the "antiquated" way and got on the job training and had excellent safety record. They love the job and behaved themselves. I was in radar and saw atc's texting on the job! And much more besides. So giving someone the FEAST is not cheating in any way what so ever. Why do people do mock exams???? Same principle

trix123

NATS is definitely not antiquated nor is any other country in Europe. They work very very hard and as I said, they rightly do not allow anyone to the paper and pencil if they cannot visually discriminate within 7 or 9 seconds. Nothing antiquated about that, with an excellent training centre too. Very impressive. And yes I saw Shannon have been there loads of times.

Top Dog

trix123 wrote: »

whereas in Ire it is really who you know.. And I know that for a fact..

trix123 wrote: »

My father in ATC and travelled loads and another one of my relatives also did.

If your father is/was in ATC here in Ireland, then you should know that at this stage there's no room for nepotism in the recruitment. This job is looking after peoples lives (while they travel blisfully unaware that their safety is in your hands) its certainly not the sort of thing you can offer to Sean because his dad was an ATC before him. Either you have what it takes or you don't.

I must admit trix - you have me somewhat confused. You're trashing the whole recruitment process, yet you're carrying on with it? Knowing that this process is being run by your potential future employers?

trix123

Like I said previously could go to NATS yet, been accepted at final stage and they pay for flights on the job training and for my family to visit me, so no bother to me where I go to be honest. Its all the one to me. 40 min- 60 and in Heathrow quicker than going to Cork or Dublin or Shannon depending where you travel from.


Well I wont say anymore on that score, about jobs, enough said, I know too much put it that way.

I was genuine about helping people and genuinely know from being an educator and talking to Controllers that the dvd is not cheating. People who really want the job would benefit from just getting a taster, it is not the FEAST and to be honest I am shocked at the anger of trying to help people. Its like the LC where kids won't even work in groups for fear of one upmanship or the library where they tear pages out of the books! Madness. There are so many stages to fully qualify and be licensed that a dvd on FEAST is not a big deal at all. Just cannot fathom the outrage on here about it. In UK they all use dvd's (ones I met) to prepare.

I have a great job and know I will pass the interview and medical for NATS and on my father's advice and my friend who is now in ATC, I might go to NATS for opportunities that allow me to get promotions etc that I wouldn't get here. So I am not fussed either way.

Top Dog

trix123 wrote: »

Like I said previously could go to NATS yet, been accepted at final stage and they pay for flights on the job training and for my family to visit me, so no bother to me where I go to be honest.

Wow! Thats certainly very different to the terms over here alright! :eek:

Is the starting salary lower then to balance things out?