ATC Student Programme 2013 *Warning post 195*

thegift06

irishbloke77 wrote: »

So don't apply then. Don't forget, on the previous 1 or 2 contracts, you were having to pay back 500euros per fortnightly cheque to cover the costs of training for the first 4/5 years. This time round, you pay nothing out of your wages, but don't get paid whilst training and start at a lower opening amount.
Finally, you still end up on the same top level of pay when you get to the top of the scale.

There are a lot of people out there who would think an opening salary of 30,000 is very good. Now, you can compare it to years gone by, or to other countries, but this is here and now. Times have changed, just look at the airlines. In years gone by, they would have paid 100% of your training costs to become a pilot, now you pay your own, then go looking for a job.

There is no support for the first 2 years, so going in to ask what they can offer you means you are wasting theirs and your time. As for the qualifications/ less people applying/better chance of getting the job etc..., the interview/selection process only gets you into the building to start training. If less suitably qualified people apply, it may mean that even though the need for 12/18/24 new cadets is fulfilled, they may have less chance of getting through training. The selection process is there to find the best candidates that have the best chance of succeeding in getting passed training.

HOWEVER, I do agree that the terms of this offering will probably exclude many people, some of whom would have been of great benefit to the IAA.

I dont know why anyone who isnt connected to the programme would want to defend the terms that they have set out unless it benefits you of course. You must live near Shannon or something.

You said I shouldnt forget about the fact that in previous vears they had to pay off their learning fees over 4/5 years. We are bound to a 7 year contract and if you falter in those 7 years you must pay €190,000.

As you said an opening salary of 30,000 is very good, I do agree but, But I dont think times have changed that much in 3 years to drop from 50,605 to 30,000.

What exactly are you saying in your last point. That because this time around the standard of applicants wont be as high so they have less chance of getting through the training? Surely thats a bad thing

the beerhunter

irishbloke77 wrote: »

This time round, you pay nothing out of your wages, but don't get paid whilst training and start at a lower opening amount... you still end up on the same top level of pay when you get to the top of the scale.

so it's a good idea to wait 20 years for pay parity with your co-workers? and in an organisation where a senior manager recently told a staff meeting that "there's no such thing as a job for life"? that's an interesting position to take where most people are happy at the coalface and have no aspirations to put on a tie and move behind a desk.

the place is meant to be operated solely on a cost-recovery model but they have just announced record profits for 2012. from the iaa website: "It receives no funding from the state and 75% of its income is earned from international sources". they've had opportunities in the past to increase costs to the (mostly foreign) airlines, yet continually try to shaft employees, and on this occasion are trying to screw people before they even have a foot in the door.

irishbloke77

the beerhunter wrote: »

so it's a good idea to wait 20 years for pay parity with your co-workers? and in an organisation where a senior manager recently told a staff meeting that "there's no such thing as a job for life"? that's an interesting position to take where most people are happy at the coalface and have no aspirations to put on a tie and move behind a desk.

the place is meant to be operated solely on a cost-recovery model but they have just announced record profits for 2012. from the iaa website: "It receives no funding from the state and 75% of its income is earned from international sources". they've had opportunities in the past to increase costs to the (mostly foreign) airlines, yet continually try to shaft employees, and on this occasion are trying to screw people before they even have a foot in the door.

Right now, there are people who work together who do not get paid the same, that's the fact of it. Someone who has been there 20 years has built up experience and does other jobs in the IAA aswell as controlling planes, whereas the new controller concentrates on the job of controlling planes.
There is no such thing as a job for life anymore and anyone who thinks that needs to come up with the times. No one can join a job anymore and expect that it will be there with them for life. God only knows where aviation is going to be in 20/30 years time. It would be a little silly to assume its your right to have your job in the same place when you retire, things are moving on so fast.

As for costs, yes, 75% comes from international sources, but the commission on aviation regulation recently cut the IAA charges on aircraft landing/departing in Ireland by 40%. The public wont put up with everyone taking pay cuts or being lucky to have a job, whilst others say a beginners salary of 30,000euros is "trying to screw" the new guy. 30,000euros is down on previous years, so is employment, house prices etc...

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that its a great contract, but there are a lot of people out there who would love a contract with that money, even after 2 years training.

irishbloke77

thegift06 wrote: »

I dont know why anyone who isnt connected to the programme would want to defend the terms that they have set out unless it benefits you of course. You must live near Shannon or something.

You said I shouldnt forget about the fact that in previous vears they had to pay off their learning fees over 4/5 years. We are bound to a 7 year contract and if you falter in those 7 years you must pay €190,000.

As you said an opening salary of 30,000 is very good, I do agree but, But I dont think times have changed that much in 3 years to drop from 50,605 to 30,000.

What exactly are you saying in your last point. That because this time around the standard of applicants wont be as high so they have less chance of getting through the training? Surely thats a bad thing

If the job means that much to you, why does the 7 year thing mean anything, surely you will be staying longer than that anyhow.

On another of your points, I don't benefit from this contract even by a cent, so it doesn't bother me. I am not defending the terms and conditions of this program, it is a pretty decent cut to previous terms and conditions. Still doesn't make it a bad job to go for. The difference in wages is roughly 20,000euros BEFORE tax, but you would not be liable to paying yearly training costs of 13,000 AFTER tax, so it's not actually that much in the difference for the first few years. It's after about the 5th year or so where the disparity is, even though at that stage it is reducing year on year.

You quote wages dropping by 40%, like house prices you could say, or an increase in unemployment or immigration. Hands up all those unemployed who would like a starting wage of 30,000.

BUT, on your last point, I do agree. Less people applying can only lead to a change in the standards and a bad thing for the IAA.

the beerhunter

irishbloke77 wrote: »

Right now, there are people who work together who do not get paid the same, that's the fact of it. Someone who has been there 20 years has built up experience and does other jobs in the IAA aswell as controlling planes, whereas the new controller concentrates on the job of controlling planes.

right now, everyone is on the same pay scale, that's the fact of it. also, someone who has been there 20 years is not obliged to do other jobs and can choose to just concentrate on the job of controlling planes.

there are a number of managers on contracts which makes them no more than yes-men fearing for their jobs if they dared to pipe up with some sense. they're the ones who have long-term personal concerns. they probably think they've a foolproof plan - pay peanuts and people will clear off to more lucrative ANSPs when their bond is up to be replaced by new cheap controllers. but with no experience on the floor and bugger all in hq they'll get themselves cornered pretty quick when faced by future challenges.

irishbloke77 wrote:

the commission on aviation regulation recently cut the IAA charges on aircraft landing/departing in Ireland by 40%

the regulator-imposed cut in terminal charges is a different subject entirely, but since most of the income is from transatlantic overflights it's an irrelevant point here anyway.

irishbloke77

[QUOTE=the beerhunter; the regulator-imposed cut in terminal charges is a different subject entirely, but since most of the income is from transatlantic overflights it's an irrelevant point here anyway.[/QUOTE]

The controllers on the ground had to make changes when the commission ruled this way. The company is being split into enroute and terminal and each has to be self sustaining. The terminal isn't, it's supplemented by enroute. This means that all controllers had to make adjustments either financially or by work practices when this ruling came in. Most money is from enroute, but the ruling did affect controllers. Either way, the majority of the wages change in the new contract in the first few years can be accounted for by not having to pay back 500euros after tax per fortnightly cheque.

Assuming that the management etc., are the only ones with worries in the future is ridiculous. The European Commission has said that in the next few years, the number of ATC centres in Europe must reduce from 63 to 40, ie 23 centers to close. Since the IAA are working closely with NATS in the FAB Functional Airspace block, they joined forces to be a larger and more efficient airspace, there is a serious chance that either prestwick or shannon centre would amalgamate into the other. Prestwick centre is a lot larger with a lot more free space, you join the dots....

I agree that the changes to this contract will not attract as many people and desuade many good candidates. There is an overall reduction in the amount being paid to new controllers which is not a good thing, but many other sectors have taken huge cuts also.

Todd Toddington III

the beerhunter wrote: »

so it's a good idea to wait 20 years for pay parity with your co-workers? and in an organisation where a senior manager recently told a staff meeting that "there's no such thing as a job for life"? that's an interesting position to take where most people are happy at the coalface and have no aspirations to put on a tie and move behind a desk.

the place is meant to be operated solely on a cost-recovery model but they have just announced record profits for 2012. from the iaa website: "It receives no funding from the state and 75% of its income is earned from international sources". they've had opportunities in the past to increase costs to the (mostly foreign) airlines, yet continually try to shaft employees, and on this occasion are trying to screw people before they even have a foot in the door.

The cost recovery system is gone fyi

the beerhunter

irishbloke77 wrote: »

The company is being split into enroute and terminal.

that worked out really well the last time they tried it... for the shannon-based controllers who wanted a transfer to dublin, and the military controllers who parachuted into a cushy rating after they joined and the project was cancelled, sending shannon approach back home.

irishbloke77 wrote: »

The European Commission has said that in the next few years, the number of ATC centres in Europe must reduce from 63 to 40, ie 23 centers to close.

that notion is being quietly shelved across europe after the deskjockeys who came up with the idea began to understand the time, cost and most importantly sovereignty difficulties involved. the iaa - nats fab is one of the few functioning in any significant way.

irishbloke77 wrote: »

There is an overall reduction in the amount being paid to new controllers which is not a good thing, but many other sectors have taken huge cuts also.

this is just a bogus argument in general: "since some are suffering, all must suffer". most of the airlines are making profits and the company just reported a record profit while being one of the cheapest service providers in europe. there is no non-sociopathic logic to targeting people who aren't even employees yet.

paulmcgrath

How is peoples' arithmetic coming along ahead of next week?

Todd Toddington III

For those of you who make it through the written aptitude tests I would recommend using one of the brain training websites such as luminosity which is a free download on smartphones. the games on these are quite similar to what comes up in the feast computer tests and should help you out. Sat the feast last time round and made it through and am now training in live ops. Anyone who wants to pm me with questions feel free to do so. Best of luck to all

ADirtySock

paulmcgrath wrote: »

How is peoples' arithmetic coming along ahead of next week?

Studying for exams, so not! :P

tipp2chicago

I just want to wish everyone the best of luck this week. It's tough but I am sure you will all do brilliantly.

I was supposed to go up tomorrow but as there is no way I can afford to do the training at the moment, I don't think there's any point doing the test.

Open Up

Sat the test today. Supposedly there's 1200 and something or 1700 and something applicants, can't remember which. Either way, a lot more than the couple of hundred mentioned above.

Todd Toddington III

Open Up wrote: »

Sat the test today. Supposedly there's 1200 and something or 1700 and something applicants, can't remember which. Either way, a lot more than the couple of hundred mentioned above.

They told us 1400 but I'd expect quite a large number won't show (as happened last time round).

Open Up

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

They told us 1400 but I'd expect quite a large number won't show (as happened last time round).

Both my numbers were wrong? Shows how switched on I was...

Muffinman1

Going to Canada otherwise would've applied but as was said alot won't show as they applied before learning its basically like college. You have to fund your way through 2 years at Shannon and basically if you fail more than 1 exam at continuous assessments you don't continue and drop out. Also add in you aren't guaranteed a job but if you are and leave within 7 years is it of your own will you are liable for €190k

Mr Pseudonym

I was told by the coordinator that between 1350 and 1400 applied, and that, historically, about 30% of those invited to the initial aptitude test don't show.

My thoughts on what has come before: the previous salary scale was outrageous, and the new one remains very generous (especially when one includes shift-allowance and holidays, and the lack of formal requirements); fears that standards will drop is over-played: the record number of applicants last time was reflective of the job situation of the time, hard-core ATC fans will still likely apply, and the pool remains large enough for what will probably be fewer than 30 places; not having much knowledge of ATC, it appears to me that it is likely that many of the roles of a controller CAN be computerised and will be in the future, which makes job prospectus a little shaky.

Hope everyone is happy with how they did. My primary reason for applying was to check out the computer-based tests (Heading and Range sounds intriguing!).

Muffinman1

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I was told by the coordinator that between 1350 and 1400 applied, and that, historically, about 30% of those invited to the initial aptitude test don't show.

My thoughts on what has come before: the previous salary scale was outrageous, and the new one remains very generous (especially when one includes shift-allowance and holidays, and the lack of formal requirements); fears that standards will drop is over-played: the record number of applicants last time was reflective of the job situation of the time, hard-core ATC fans will still likely apply, and the pool remains large enough for what will probably be fewer than 30 places; not having much knowledge of ATC, it appears to me that it is likely that many of the roles of a controller CAN be computerised and will be in the future, which makes job prospectus a little shaky.

Hope everyone is happy with how they did. My primary reason for applying was to check out the computer-based tests (Heading and Range sounds intriguing!).

In fairness I don't think it salary that put people off as its still great it's more gamble of having to do 2 years without any income at all and as was already said it impossible to hold part time job while doing this.

adamski8

Maths section was easy but you have to be quick as there isnt much time. Abstract was fine too just a bit of concentration needed. Mechanical for me was very easy, was done this in half the alloted time. Spactial was tough though and i didnt have enough time so rush some and guessed a good few.

Names

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I was told by the coordinator that between 1350 and 1400 applied, and that, historically, about 30% of those invited to the initial aptitude test don't show.

My thoughts on what has come before: the previous salary scale was outrageous, and the new one remains very generous (especially when one includes shift-allowance and holidays, and the lack of formal requirements); fears that standards will drop is over-played: the record number of applicants last time was reflective of the job situation of the time, hard-core ATC fans will still likely apply, and the pool remains large enough for what will probably be fewer than 30 places; not having much knowledge of ATC, it appears to me that it is likely that many of the roles of a controller CAN be computerised and will be in the future, which makes job prospectus a little shaky.

Hope everyone is happy with how they did. My primary reason for applying was to check out the computer-based tests (Heading and Range sounds intriguing!).

Hasn't a clue of how it works ....

Carazy

Are all aptitude tests held in Dublin this year? And slap bang in the middle of Dublin too.
The last time there was tests in Dublin and Limerick. No tests held in Limerick,Shannon or Clare....... when the training will be in Shannon.

paulmcgrath

Carazy wrote: »

Are all aptitude tests held in Dublin this year? And slap bang in the middle of Dublin too.
The last time there was tests in Dublin and Limerick. No tests held in Limerick,Shannon or Clare....... when the training will be in Shannon.

Other side of the stone.

It is only a 5min walk from the IAA head office? Unless they've moved which i'm unaware of.

Muffinman1

All tests in Dublin. All training in Shannon which is alot of expense when you consider it 2 years training with no income. No dole and it near impossible to work part time. Add in fact in continuous assessments if you fail more than 1 test in the groups of 4/5 your out. Add in pass mark is 70%.

Top Dog

Carazy wrote: »

Are all aptitude tests held in Dublin this year? And slap bang in the middle of Dublin too.
The last time there was tests in Dublin and Limerick. No tests held in Limerick,Shannon or Clare....... when the training will be in Shannon.

The whole of the recruitment process is being held in Dublin - aptitude tests, FEAST tests, interviews. I'm sure it was in the advertisement for this intake.

DustyMan

c. 1,320 applied. Probably a couple of hundredth will not sit the test.

I actually only realized today that there will be no training allowance/payment! So even if I get the highest marks in the test and could make a great ATO I'm out. There's just no way I could afford it without a training allowance/grant etc.

Muffinman1

DustyMan wrote: »

c. 1,320 applied. Probably a couple of hundredth will not sit the test.

I actually only realized today that there will be no training allowance/payment! So even if I get the highest marks in the test and could make a great ATO I'm out. There's just no way I could afford it without a training allowance/grant etc.

In same boat and even though I live near Shannon fact I can't even get dole and fact that on job training is 24/7 in terms of you can be working any time and impossible to have part time job

Carazy

I'm in the same boat as ye above. Live near Shannon, always interested in ATC but the No Allowance is and will be a major factor. Have the test tomorrow and will give it a go anyway.

adamski8

I think the first question in the test should be 'what allowance do you get if you get selected for the programme?'

Looks like most didnt look twice at the t&c which for a job which requires attention to detail should rule most people out.

I hate those people, your wasting everybodies time! No doubt some will get to the latter stages before realising they have 0% intention of doing the course.

Muffinman1

adamski8 wrote: »

I think the first question in the test should be 'what allowance do you get if you get selected for the programme?'

Looks like most didnt look twice at the t&c which for a job which requires attention to detail should rule most people out.

I hate those people, your wasting everybodies time! No doubt some will get to the latter stages before realising they have 0% intention of doing the course.

To be fair the 0 allowance wasn't on original application so your comment is false. And it's not that people have no intention but might just not be from wealthy backgrounds or they possibly have a mortgage or family to support and well if you have to pay for a house somewhere in the country, pay for 2 years upkeep in Shannon and transport costs and do it all on a salary of €0.

adamski8

What do you mean it wasnt on the original application? It was on the site when the application opened.