ATC Student Programme 2013 *Warning post 195*

Muffinman1

adamski8 wrote: »

I think the first question in the test should be 'what allowance do you get if you get selected for the programme?'

Looks like most didnt look twice at the t&c which for a job which requires attention to detail should rule most people out.

I hate those people, your wasting everybodies time! No doubt some will get to the latter stages before realising they have 0% intention of doing the course.

To be fair the 0 allowance wasn't on original application so your comment is false. And it's not that people have no intention but might just not be from wealthy backgrounds or they possibly have a mortgage or family to support and well if you have to pay for a house somewhere in the country, pay for 2 years upkeep in Shannon and transport costs and do it all on a salary of €0.

adamski8

What do you mean it wasnt on the original application? It was on the site when the application opened.

paulmcgrath

adamski8 wrote: »

What do you mean it wasnt on the original application? It was on the site when the application opened.

I think he means, IT WASNT IN BIG BOLD UNDERLINED CAPITALS

Muffinman1

adamski8 wrote: »

What do you mean it wasnt on the original application? It was on the site when the application opened.

No I meant when advertised on papers and other online outlets there was no mention of salaries and people would've applied before realising.
As I said from knowing Shannon cheapest place to live is €550 a month before bills etc and transport as IAA base is right on edge of Shannon. People wouldn't have realised it possibly up to €1500 a month expenses after food and utilities are factored in and that a lot when your income is €0.
As someone put it elsewhere your training indirectly costs around €35000 if you are relocating here. Then after that you have to stick at job 7 years or you are liable to repay €190000 training fees

Top Dog

Muffinman1 wrote: »

As someone put it elsewhere your training indirectly costs around €35000 if you are relocating here. Then after that you have to stick at job 7 years or you are liable to repay €190000 training fees

I think you're mixing up the terms of this recruitment drive, and the terms from the last one in 3 years ago. I don't recall seeing anywhere this time (though I'm open to correction) that you have to repay training fees. They're not even guaranteeing a position at the end of the whole process so they can't expect people to repay €190k if they haven't a job.

Besides which - even if it was the case that you'd have to repay it, would you seriously be going though this lengthy process & 2 years of training, to then not stick at the job for a good number of years?

Muffinman1

Recruitment Process/Information on Student Air Traffic Controller Programme 2013
There are 5 stages in the Recruitment Process of Student Air Traffic Controllers. All stages of the process will take place in a Dublin based location.
Stage 1 - Screening Process:

Applicants who meet the minimum entry requirements are called to a Paper and Pencil Aptitude Test.

(Progression through the recruitment process is subject to verification of the minimum entry requirements.)

Stage 2 - Paper and Pencil Aptitude Test:

Indicative schedule between 13 May 2013 to 1 June 2013.

Please note these dates are subject to change. All applicants will be required to produce a Valid Passport for the Paper and Pencil Aptitude Test.

The duration of this process, including Registration, is 2½ hours.

There are 4 individual Tests covering Spatial Relations, Numerical, Abstract and Mechanical Reasoning. No further information or Sample Papers on the Tests will be provided to candidates.

Stage 3 - Computer Based Aptitude Tests:

Part 1 – FEAST Test (First European Air Traffic Controller Selection Test). Indicative schedule between 10 June 2013 and 18 June 2013.

Please note these dates are subject to change. All applicants will be required to produce a Valid Passport and a Recent Passport Sized Colour Photograph (the photograph will be retained by the IAA) for identification purposes.

Applicants who attain a high enough position in the Paper and Pencil Aptitude Test will be called to a Computer Based Aptitude Test (FEAST). Applicants who previously sat the test in the last two years will be precluded from re-sitting, and will be evaluated on their previous test results.

The duration of this process, including Registration, is 3 hours.

The FEAST Test is a set of tests which examine an applicant’s ability in regard to a number of items including the following:

- Heading and Range Test
- English Listening and Comprehension
- Planning Ability
- Sort Task
- Alertness in Simple and Multi-Tasking Situations Test
- Visualisation Test

Part 2 – DART Test (Dynamic ATC Radar Test). Indicative schedule 19 June 2013 to 22 June 2013.

All applicants will be required to produce a Valid Passport for identification purposes.

Applicants who obtain a sufficiently high standard on the Part 1 FEAST Test are called for Part 2 DART test, a computer based aptitude test. The duration of this process, including Registration, is 3 hours.

The DART Test is aimed at measuring your multi-tasking abilities. The test will require you to perform a number of different tasks at the same time like in the job of an Air Traffic Controller. The test is designed for beginners with no background in ATC.

Applicants who achieve a sufficiently high standard in the Part 2 DART Test will be called for work strengths profiling and a group interview/exercise.

Stage 4 – Work Strengths Profiling and Group Interview/ Exercise:

Part 1 – Work Strengths Profiling (Indicative schedule – on line tests should be
Completed by 28 June 2013)

Applicants will be required to complete their work strengths profiling on line by 28 June 2013. The work strengths profile is designed to give a behavioural profile of individual’s based on certain work based competencies.

Part 2 – Group Interview/ Exercise (Indicative schedule 8 July 2013 to 16 July 2013)
All applicants will be required to produce a Valid Passport for identification purposes. All applicants must also bring original certificates of educational requirements.

Applicants will be required to attend for a group exercise. This is a simulation exercise that
requires applicants to operate as a group to address a given set of circumstances.

Applicants who achieve a sufficiently high standard following completion of Stage 4 (Work
Strengths Profiling and Group Interview/Exercise) will be called for final interview (Stage 5).

Stage 5 Final Interview

Indicative schedule 24 July 2013 to 9 August 2013.

Interviews for the final stage of the recruitment process will be competency based.

Applicants will be expected to have some basic knowledge of the Irish Aviation Authority and the Air Traffic Control Service and the various other activities in which it is involved. Most of this information is contained on the IAA website.

All applicants will be required to produce a Valid Passport for identification purposes.

Medical Licencing Requirement
Applicants who are deemed successful to participate in the Student Air Traffic Controller programme must undergo a comprehensive Medical Examination. This will be carried out by IAA designated Doctors. The medical criteria meets international civil aviation standards. The cost of the medical will be borne by the IAA. Indicative timeframe – 15 August 2013 to 30 September 2013.

Security Clearances
Full Security Clearance will be carried out for all students who are offered a place on the student programme.

Reference Checking
Reference checking may be carried out on all those who are offered a student placement.

It is expected that the Class of Students will commence training in Ballycasey in the first quarter of 2014.




Note: The vast majority of correspondence for this competition will be carried out via email. Please ensure you check your e-mail on a regular basis
Please also check the IAA web-site on a regular basis for updates on the Selection Process schedule

**********
 
Student Air Traffic Controller Programme

The Authority reserves the right to change the selection process and add or delete stages as deemed appropriate. Any significant changes in the foregoing process will be noted in advance on the IAA website. Applicants are encouraged to visit our website on a regular basis during the process for updates on the selection process and the recruitment schedule.

Dates for the various stages are indicative and the actual schedule will depend on the number of applications received. The schedule for the various stages will be updated on a regular basis.

Invitation to participate in the recruitment process is based on self-declaration in relation to compliance with Age, Education, English Proficiency and Legal Work Status criteria.

All minimum entry requirements will be checked during the recruitment process and where documentation does not adequately support this self-declaration, the application will be deemed invalid and the candidate advised accordingly.

All applicants will be required to produce a Valid Passport for the Paper and Pencil Aptitude Test.

All applicants will be required to produce a Valid Passport and a Recent Passport Sized Colour Photograph (photograph will be retained by the IAA) for identification purposes to attend for all stages in the recruitment process.

No Travel or Incidental Expenses will be paid to any applicant for any stage of the recruitment process.

Education
The educational standard required is a minimum of Level 5 on the National
Framework of Qualifications (NFQ). The National Framework of Qualifications is
the single structure mechanism for recognising all education and training in Ireland.
Further details are available on www.nfq.ie.

Candidates who claim eligibility through the holding of other awards, including foreign
qualifications that signify at least comparable learning, will have the validity of their qualifications assessed by the National Qualifications Authority.

Further details are available on www.nqai.ie.

 
Note on Student Controller Programme

No payment will be made to Students while undergoing training.

Successful applicants will undergo a Training Programme of approximately 2 years duration, based initially at the Authority’s Training Centre at Ballycasey, Shannon, Co. Clare and subsequently at one of the three State Airports (Dublin, Shannon and Cork)

If you successfully complete the Programme, including attainment of an ICAO rating (licence) you may be offered appointment as an Air Traffic Controller. Salary for Air Traffic Controllers is based on an incremental scale.

The basic salary for an Air Traffic Controller starts at €32,500 rising over a 20 point annual incremental scale to a current maximum of €88,540. Air Traffic Controllers also receive a shift allowance for working unsocial hours. Salary is payable by credit transfer less standard PAYE, Government Levies and PRSI deductions (Class A).

Where you accept an offer of employment as an ATCO with the IAA and you subsequently serve for less than 7 years you will be required to repay training costs and this will form part of your contract of employment.

Where following completion of your training you receive an offer of employment as an ATCO with
the IAA and you refuse the position you will be liable to repay training costs of €190,000.

Students will incur no liability for training costs in the following circumstances:

- Where they have their training contract terminated by the Authority
- Where Students terminate their training contract prior to the achievement of a rating
- Where Students are not offered employment with the Authority


In the event of you being offered a position on the Student Controller Programme, you will be required to confirm your acceptance of the salary and other conditions applying to the post of Air Traffic Controller with the IAA, in advance of your participation on the programme.


NB THE ABOVE IS FOR INFORMATION ONLY

Above is from IAA.

In bold are my points.

1. No fees given.

2. Repayment if you leave within 7 years of €190k. And yes if you go through all that Top Dog maybe you won't leave in that time but that why I'd encourage people to know everything and realize.
- It extremely hard to get a days leave and if you research (even in a previous thread from years ago) days off for weddings etc are practically impossible unless you get a swap.
- People might not enjoy the hours and the fact your social life is practically gone with the job.
- People with families might have issues if they relocated with their famillies to Shannon or surrounding areas and they did not settle then it an issue.

There are other reasons but my point is issues like that are hard to say as you don't know until you try.

Students will incur no liability for training costs in the following circumstances:

- Where they have their training contract terminated by the Authority
(Only if you fail exams which is a gamble)
- Where Students terminate their training contract prior to the achievement of a rating
(It's unlikely someone will dropout but may well be the case but no qualification)
- Where Students are not offered employment with the Authority
(Seems very unlikely you will be let go. Knowing a few ATC's they say there will be jobs)


In the event of you being offered a position on the Student Controller Programme, you will be required to confirm your acceptance of the salary and other conditions applying to the post of Air Traffic Controller with the IAA, in advance of your participation on the programme. This is key as you sign up to all conditions before you recieve a pay.

Again as I said it alot of expense all the trips to Dublin and then relocation to Shannon. In my eyes it seems destined only to be for extremely wealthy people that this is financially sustainable

Top Dog

So it appears I was wrong.

I still stand by what I said though - would you really put yourself through all that and not stick at the job afterwards for a good number of years?

Muffinman1

Top Dog wrote: »

So it appears I was wrong.

I still stand by what I said though - would you really put yourself through all that and not stick at the job afterwards for a good number of years?

My point though you might have all the best intentions and be willing to put yourself through it but people will not know realistically what it like until they are in the job.

Top Dog

Muffinman1 wrote: »

My point though you might have all the best intentions and be willing to put yourself through it but people will not know realistically what it like until they are in the job.

Isn't part of the training on the job? You'll soon know if its for you or not.

Muffinman1

Top Dog wrote: »

Isn't part of the training on the job? You'll soon know if its for you or not. Then fail an exam, get excused ... don't owe €190k.

True but after wasting alot in expense that'd be terrible attitude

Top Dog

.

Foleymoley

To be perfectly honest, I think it'd be the more honourable thing to do to purposely fail an exam [/quote]

Why would you purposely fail an exam when you could just say this isn't for me and leave?

Top Dog

Foleymoley wrote: »

Why would you purposely fail an exam when you could just say this isn't for me and leave?

Tis all putting the cart before the horse - people have to make it through the recruitment first before it'll ever arise (if at all)

genoa

At the risk of opening up a can of worms, I am going to weigh in here.... despite promising myself that I wouldn't.

There are some major issues lying ahead for this new SCP11 class. The concept of non-payment training in itself is not overly unusual, the IAA are perfectly entitled to class the SCP as a college based facility. However, there are going to be not so subtle differences to the standard "college" way here.

First off, the SCP is not anything like a normal college environment. It is a job in the eyes of the IAA and as such, student controllers always have and will be treated as employees of the company. Nothing wrong with that of course. However, past duties of the student controllers were not simply limited to pure ATC training. Many of the previous SCP classes have had significant delays before beginning their rating course. Within that time, other duties were performed such as sim driving or "piloting" as its referred to. Now it must be noted at this point that the IAA employs staff for such duties. However, with the amount of training going on in the school at any point in time, extra staff are required to meet the demands. The school more often than not enlist the spare students to help out. That's all fine and well when the students mentioned are being paid. Whether or not the IAA will be able to enforce unpaid employees to pilot alongside full time staff who are being paid a salary for the same job is questionable. Add to this the fact that not all students can be trained at the same time (typically 3 groups of 8 if 24 is the intake number), then the probability is that some trainees will be piloting for fellow trainees who will then be finished before them.

Furthermore, if students are now paying for their training, as has been the case with the most recent SCP classes, one could then ask, are the students therefore receiving a service? Debatable. Throw into this the fact that some students will be finished significantly sooner than others (in some classes, up to a year in the difference between those who have been rated first versus those who went last). Should those students rated last have to pay back less then than those who have received a better service, as they have finished the same training in a shorter period of time, thus earning money much sooner.

Finally, recent SCP students have not received a shift allowance while conducting on the job training (OJT). I'm not aware of the intentions of the IAA in relation to payment or non-payment for upcoming SCP11 students during their OJT but I again would seriously question any attempt not to pay students during this period of training, if not from a legal standpoint, then an ethical one. Although OJT is conducted on the licence of a full time controller, it must be pointed out that it is done in live ops, alongside controllers who are essentially performing the same tasks. I see the issue of a part-time job not being allowed as ruling out many potential candidates, which is a shame. I've no knowledge of contract/employment law and I will therefore refrain from asking the question of whether an unpaid employee (if there is such a thing) can be stopped from attaining a second, part-time job, provided there is no clash of working hours, disruption of performance or conflict of interest.

With this in mind, I do urge applicants to carefully consider whether or not this is something they are 100% committed to . There has been a lot of take from the IAA and very little in the way of give when it comes to the conditions of SCP's. And while it is accepted that these are tougher times, it must not be forgotten the future responsibility on the shoulders of those students. My advice is that if you are not sure this is for you, now is the time to step back. Purposely failing any assessments is a non-runner. The IAA do invest heavily in the training of students and any attempt to throw exams will not be well received.

Like I said, can of worms...

adamski8

So muffinman can say it wasnt made clear there is no funding for the training but can easy post and highlight the terms stating such facts! Sorry im confused?!

Muffinman1

adamski8 wrote: »

So muffinman can say it wasnt made clear there is no funding for the training but can easy post and highlight the terms stating such facts! Sorry im confused?!

Part I posted was put up after original advert in papers.

bombs away

genoa wrote: »

At the risk of opening up a can of worms, I am going to weigh in here.... despite promising myself that I wouldn't.

There are some major issues lying ahead for this new SCP11 class. The concept of non-payment training in itself is not overly unusual, the IAA are perfectly entitled to class the SCP as a college based facility. However, there are going to be not so subtle differences to the standard "college" way here.

First off, the SCP is not anything like a normal college environment. It is a job in the eyes of the IAA and as such, student controllers always have and will be treated as employees of the company. Nothing wrong with that of course. However, past duties of the student controllers were not simply limited to pure ATC training. Many of the previous SCP classes have had significant delays before beginning their rating course. Within that time, other duties were performed such as sim driving or "piloting" as its referred to. Now it must be noted at this point that the IAA employs staff for such duties. However, with the amount of training going on in the school at any point in time, extra staff are required to meet the demands. The school more often than not enlist the spare students to help out. That's all fine and well when the students mentioned are being paid. Whether or not the IAA will be able to enforce unpaid employees to pilot alongside full time staff who are being paid a salary for the same job is questionable. Add to this the fact that not all students can be trained at the same time (typically 3 groups of 8 if 24 is the intake number), then the probability is that some trainees will be piloting for fellow trainees who will then be finished before them.

Furthermore, if students are now paying for their training, as has been the case with the most recent SCP classes, one could then ask, are the students therefore receiving a service? Debatable. Throw into this the fact that some students will be finished significantly sooner than others (in some classes, up to a year in the difference between those who have been rated first versus those who went last). Should those students rated last have to pay back less then than those who have received a better service, as they have finished the same training in a shorter period of time, thus earning money much sooner.

Finally, recent SCP students have not received a shift allowance while conducting on the job training (OJT). I'm not aware of the intentions of the IAA in relation to payment or non-payment for upcoming SCP11 students during their OJT but I again would seriously question any attempt not to pay students during this period of training, if not from a legal standpoint, then an ethical one. Although OJT is conducted on the licence of a full time controller, it must be pointed out that it is done in live ops, alongside controllers who are essentially performing the same tasks. I see the issue of a part-time job not being allowed as ruling out many potential candidates, which is a shame. I've no knowledge of contract/employment law and I will therefore refrain from asking the question of whether an unpaid employee (if there is such a thing) can be stopped from attaining a second, part-time job, provided there is no clash of working hours, disruption of performance or conflict of interest.

With this in mind, I do urge applicants to carefully consider whether or not this is something they are 100% committed to . There has been a lot of take from the IAA and very little in the way of give when it comes to the conditions of SCP's. And while it is accepted that these are tougher times, it must not be forgotten the future responsibility on the shoulders of those students. My advice is that if you are not sure this is for you, now is the time to step back. Purposely failing any assessments is a non-runner. The IAA do invest heavily in the training of students and any attempt to throw exams will not be well received.

Like I said, can of worms...

If all this is as you say then what the hell are your union doing about it?

Not2good2

Can a union represent people before they become "staff"? I don't think they can. In recent times the union could not even represent the scp students, they could advise but not formally represent. I understand that the IAA can offer what they like as new positions, if people are interested, they will apply, if not then don't apply.

Another thing to consider with what seems to be ever eroding conditions is that in recent scp classes only 60-70% of students actually finished the course and are now working. Don't know if I'd give up everything with those odds on top of the conditions....

Todd Toddington III

bombs away wrote: »

If all this is as you say then what the hell are your union doing about it?

See the post below yours, there's your answer. The company will keep trying to ride students as long as they can get away with it, sure aren't we in a recession? (Despite record profits last year).

There is a rumour that they may be reviewing the non payment issue while training. Only a rumour mind, may only be Chinese whispers

DustyMan

adamski8 wrote: »

I think the first question in the test should be 'what allowance do you get if you get selected for the programme?'

Looks like most didnt look twice at the t&c which for a job which requires attention to detail should rule most people out.

I hate those people, your wasting everybodies time! No doubt some will get to the latter stages before realising they have 0% intention of doing the course.

Come on adamski8 don't be a 'hater'. :-) There are worse things in life, so untwist your knickers.

Personally I don't feel I am 'wasting everbodies time' by sitting the test having not read the full T & C. Who knows what changes might lay ahead. Personally glad I set the test....whatever the outcome. If I don't get the test, if they don't change the grant/training allowance et cetera I'm just going to learn from the experience. As i said there are worse things in life...

adamski8

dont worry im not bursting at the seams! they are wasting their time too.

Bsal

Just some info I got from my test on Thursday... One of the ladies running the tests during the week said there will be 2 classes of 24 this time round, and that around 700 will progress to the FEAST test.

Muffinman1

Bsal wrote: »

Just some info I got from my test on Thursday... One of the ladies running the tests during the week said there will be 2 classes of 24 this time round, and that around 700 will progress to the FEAST test.

Always was 700 for feast down to around 200 for last section

Top Dog

Since its all done and dusted now - can we talk about the aptitude test? Coz I'm itching to ask a question!

adamski8

Top Dog wrote: »

Since its all done and dusted now - can we talk about the aptitude test? Coz I'm itching to ask a question!

Well whoever said we couldnt???

Top Dog

adamski8 wrote: »

Well whoever said we couldnt???

Well its advised not to discuss it beforehand in case you might be giving your competition an advantage

Sooooo

The final test - Space Awareness.

Was Question 45 a trick question? I sat and looked at that one for 3 mins and I'm convinced that you couldn't physically make it into ANY of the options that were there. It was more of an X shape than all the others.

Am I going mad?

adamski8

I thought a few of that section didnt have a correct answer. I ran out of time on that section and i think i put random answers for the last 7 or 8 so i dont think i looked at the question your on about.

Top Dog

Thanks - it was just driving me nuts after.

That and the darn metal/clay bowl one!

mk85711

When are the results of the aptitude out?

Top Dog

mk85711 wrote: »

When are the results of the aptitude out?

We were told that people would be notified within a maximum of 8 working days.