Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Villain

hexosan wrote: »

@villain you still haven't explained how a self builder can get around signing the cert where it requires the principal or director of a company. ????

The Minister says the act hasn't changed in respect of Self builds, that is good enough for me.

martinn123

hexosan wrote: »

@martainn123 while id like to believe the fees will only add a couple of extra grand to the build cost is this not a free market and what right has the minister to say how much a professional should charge to certify. At the end of the day he's not doing the certifying.
If he came out and said builders will only be charging X amount I'm sure you'd have a problem with that.

In fairness I think he was using this as an illustration of some of the hyperbole, around this subject, rather than trying to set a Fee structure

I agree with your comment regarding building costs.

Corkblowin

Hogan has continued to muddy the waters.

Its true that there has been no change to the technical standards - ie insulation levels, structure, fire, disabled access etc - but no-one has been saying these are a problem. What has changed are the procedures by which you prove compliance with the regulations.

As for the costs - I can see how it would only cost 1-3k extra - but only in the situation where the self builder had already paid for full service and gotten a set of construction drawings and was paying for regular site inspection. In that instance, if the same person could act as assigned certifier then costs could be rationalised.

But how many do get a full service? and of those that do, how many used a technologist like me? I've done one full-service self build in 15 years, but now that guy couldn't use me to sign off.

As for saying we've had 2 years to get ready and architects training has been late - the code of practice was only released 2 weeks ago - how could we get training in something that wasn't yet in place!!!!! That bit really made me angry and of course any response now won't get the same coverage.

Only bit of light relief was Hogan hanging Graby & the president out to dry as being on board with the changes - just as the members who were asking for deferral said would happen. Hard to feel sorry for the RIAI though - they've shafted their technologist members and now they'll be shafted by Hogan.

hexosan

Villain wrote: »

The Minister says the act hasn't changed in respect of Self builds, that is good enough for me.

So your ignoring the law & the defence is but sure someone told me it was ok to do what I wanted. Would make for an interesting court case.

Has the minister once specifically referenced the section requiring a principal or director to sign the cert and then said self builders can ignore this section. Unless you can provide evidence of this you need to give up your cause.
Up to this point your only contribution has been "but the minister said it's ok".

When did he said this ??????

BabysCoffee

Hope everyone affected by this has sent an email to Minister Hogan and all other ministers. If not, do it now! A simple one line email saying your view will suffice.

martinn123

hexosan wrote: »

So your ignoring the law & the defence is but sure someone told me it was ok to do what I wanted. Would make for an interesting court case.

Has the minister once specifically referenced the section requiring a principal or director to sign the cert and then said self builders can ignore this section. Unless you can provide evidence of this you need to give up your cause.
Up to this point your only contribution has been "but the minister said it's ok".

When did he said this ??????

To be fair to Villain, and others who have quoted Hogan, he did reference Self-Builders on Radio this morning, aired at 8.20am
The interview was pre-recorded, and has been heading News Bulletins since

So by the time the first Civil Servant turned up at 9am, in the Dept. he may have issued a directive to sort out this form

The legislation comes into effect tomorrow, so if 4Sticks crystal ball is right......

It ain't over till the Fat Lady Sings.

DOCARCH

martinn123 wrote: »

Interestingly Hogan also states Fees should be in the range of 1-3K for a one off, for this extra work.

This, I would sugest is ture...but...for large scale develpments where there are multiple 'units'.

Hogan quoted the same figure in the Independent during the week saying 'per unit'...he did also add the caveat at the end that the 'market would dictate'!

4Sticks

martinn123 wrote: »

Or responding to observations made, before the Reg's come into force, to remove a valid objection, and make the Legislation, workable. Surely thats what these periods of consultation are for.

Naah. Just the minister using a classic negotiating strategy is all. Slap in the face being better than a kick in the ....s! It's what I beleive happened anyway.

4Sticks

martinn123 wrote: »

I suggested yesterday, a simple Amendment could remove this objection, again if your crystal ball, is working, and this wording is amended, are we all back on track,

No we would not be.

The pool of viable Cetifiers is slashed
That residual pool is very very nervous ( whether you or anyone else cares to acknowledge the case for that - they are )
Many of that pool will not wish to offer services to self builders ( money will not talk in sufficient numbers , Villain)
The attitude of lenders is yet to be made known. I think they will be minding the pennys very carefully and not at all inclined to get "back on track".

My crystal ball may or may not be right of course....

hexosan

From my experience with mortgage lenders on my own build they have looked for every excuse possible not to lend or release money. I spent 7 weeks bending over backwards catering to their every whim to get my stage payment.
One comical request they made to delay the payment was asking me to increase my site insurance to €550,000 over 200k about what they valued the house at. When pushed to explain the reason the answer given was if you want the payment do it.

I can foresee them requesting that every single element of the legislation is followed to the letter and can't seem to see them agreeing to self builds if the legislation requires a builder to be named. Plus when I went down the self build route they wanted every element of the build detailed and budgeted whereas they would of excepts a contract price off a builder far quicker.

martinn123

4Sticks wrote: »

Naah. Just the minister using a classic negotiating strategy is all. Slap in the face being better than a kick in the ....s! It's what I beleive happened anyway.

Bit cynical........but possibly true

we all back on track,

I was only referring to this darn form, upon which so much Legal Opinion, has been offered here, needs a thread in the Legal Forum.;)

All your other observations remain

Gumbo

Everybody up to their eyes lodging standard CN's today?
Last day to lodge before SI9 kicks in.

sydthebeat

if i was coming at it from villians point of view or any prospective novice self builder... id be LIVID

The minister sees to be unilaterally saying something that is at odds with all other stakeholders.

IEI, RIAI, SCSI, IAOSB have all said self building is over.
Professionals who certify are being told by their representative bodies that self building is gone and a competent builder must be appointed. The actual law SI9 states in a few locations that the builders certificate is to be signed by a principle of a building company ("where applicable" buts doesnt differentiate wheres its not applicable)
The Code of practise specifically states that a builder must be appointed.

The two forms of guidance, the Leaflet and the localgov.ie website, both contradict themselves if viewed from the novice self builder point of view... but actually make sense if the self builder is an established builder.

D Day is today, any commencement notice submitted after today is subject to these regs, as long as they are not exempt.

mandy gall

It may be V Day yet lads. Ive just finished an interview on the Morning Edition Show fighting for our Build.

Happyman42

mandy gall wrote: »

It may be V Day yet lads. Ive just finished an interview on the Morning Edition Show fighting for our Build.

Figured that was you! Didn't know they had houses in Mayo.

mandy gall

Happyman42 wrote: »

Figured that was you! Didn't know they had houses in Mayo.

Well dont know that either as we are in sligo. If Hogan has his way we'll all be living in cages like North Korea

mickdw

I was quite disgusted with a interview by an architect on local radio in Mayo yesterday.
He was poorly informed and misleading to say the least.
He 'confirmed' that all buildings including agricultural sheds came under this as long as they were over 40 sq.m.
He also went on to say that the issue with troublesome builds such as priory hall was that they wouldnt have been registered professionals involved which imo is quite a big assumption to make.
When asked about the increased costs associated with this, he went off on a tangent about energy ratings, part L compliance and running cost savings as if to say that nobody was complying currently.

I had 2 people call me after the program looking to get houses signed off. One who is in a position to submit commencement today and one who is not. I dont think its even worth the hassle now of being involved with a new build starting now under the old system.

Happyman42

mandy gall wrote: »

Well dont know that either as we are in sligo. If Hogan has his way we'll all be living in cages like North Korea

oops! :P

Well played btw!

4Sticks

Hogan has managed to polarize professionals , builders and "the client body" here and that is all he has done.
The impacts - mostly negative I fear - will ripple for months , maybe years from now until a more enlightened minister chooses re address the issues.
Building standards and consumer protection have not been advanced one iota.
And Big Phil will blame all but himself for this.

mickdw

I dont think we have all that long to wait for a new minister or new government either for that matter.

Villain

sydthebeat wrote: »

if i was coming at it from villians point of view or any prospective novice self builder... id be LIVID

Just to clarify my self build was completed last year, I am not affected directly by any changes.

4Sticks

How would you feel if you were starting work next month Villain i.e. under the new controls?

Villain

4Sticks wrote: »

How would you feel if you were starting work next month Villain i.e. under the new controls?

Confident that I could complete as I did last year

jiminho

From RTE website, re: Min. Hogan interview:

Members of the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland have called for the deferral of new building regulations due to come into force tomorrow.

The regulations will increase the levels of accountability on professionals signing off on new buildings.

Councillors in rural areas have called on Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan to amend the regulations to facilitate rural self-builders who want to build on their own land.

The Department of the Environment said the new regulations are needed to ensure properties are safe and compliant with the regulations.

Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Mr Hogan said there is nothing new in the regulations that prevent direct labour.

"The people who engage in direct labour or self-build will be able to continue to do so because there is no change in the act; in the statutory obligations under the Building Control Act 1990," he said.

The minister added that he is "expecting a professional to sign off on the work that it is actually done in accordance with the papers that are lodged and that it is up to a high standard ... that will cost somewhere between one and two thousand euro".

He said it is "a small cost to pay to make sure that things are done right for a home that might cost €100,000 or €150,000".

Mr Hogan said the new regulations were being brought in because of all the poor building standards that have been signed off by professionals, which resulted in places such as Priory Hall, unfinished estates and pyritic material in buildings.

The minister said he could not understand what he described as the "wild exaggeration" in relation to self-builds.

He said there is no change in the technical performance standards in respect of newly-finished homes.

I know there's been a lot of he said, she said, regs say yada-yada but it is bizarre that Hogan is so adamant in his reasoning. He has said time and time again that people who want to take the direct build route can still do so. I mean it's one thing to fudge the truth, it's another to flat out lie. I guess time will tell. Nothing's set in stone quite yet and who's to say there will be an amendment shortly after regardless of what comes to fruition tomorrow. Ahh to be Irish!!!

DOCARCH

jiminho wrote: »

I know there's been a lot of he said, she said, regs say yada-yada but it is bizarre that Hogan is so adamant in his reasoning. He has said time and time again that people who want to take the direct build route can still do so.

He is telling the truth, but not the whole truth.

If you are a competent builder and are the principal/director of the building company, then yes, you can carry out a direct/self build for yourself.

Based on the current legislation, that will come into force at midnight, that's the way it is.

martinn123

DOCARCH wrote: »

He is telling the truth, but not the whole truth.

If you are a competent builder and are the principal/director of the building company, then yes, you can carry out a direct/self build for yourself.

Based on the current legislation, that will come into force at midnight, that's the way it is.

Comments such as the above, have made this thread just go round, and round, and get nowhere, for the past few weeks.

Everyone is putting their own spin, on what was said

I listened to RTE today, and the Minister said what is quoted in post #1225

OK there are some clarifications needed pertaining to the ''Form''

I think this sums it up

RIAI President wrote:

Self-Builders
It is unclear how self builders will be able to operate under the new system. The government will need to provide clarification on this issue.

in a statement issued today
see

http://www.riai.ie/index.php/news/article/riai_presidents_statement_on_building_control_amendment_regulations

4Sticks

Well we do enter a new phase now after COB today.

Which is why I have asked that we have a new dedicated sub forum for Building Control similar to BER / Renewable energies etc.

I think the matter will spawn thread after thread and so to all reading if you think so too please add your voice to mine here

DOCARCH

martinn123 wrote: »

Comments such as the above, have made this thread just go round, and round, and get nowhere, for the past few weeks.

You can't blame anybody for going round in circles when the Minister says one thing and the legislation says another.

There are no 'clarifications' required on the form, that is part of the legislation. Clarifications will not do anything. The only thing that will count is a change in the legislation.

DOCARCH

Toddling off now to revise drawings for what was a 43.4m.sq. extension to 39.9m.sq. :P

Chisler2

martinn123 wrote: »

Or responding to observations made, before the Reg's come into force, to remove a valid objection, and make the Legislation, workable
Surely thats what these periods of consultation are for.



I suggested yesterday, a simple Amendment could remove this objection, again if your crystal ball, is working, and this wording is amended, are we all back on track, and the ongoing, and cynical criticisms aimed at Self Builders, here can desist.

Interestingly Hogan also states Fees should be in the range of 1-3K for a one off, for this extra work.

This is in stark contrast to comments here some time ago, that Certifyers would have to be on site every day, and charge up to 8%.

I for one would welcome some ''Legal Opinion'',post, Hogans statement this morning, not anything available up to now.

An end to Gross Exhaduration, as Hogan stated, would also be welcome.

Note. I am certainly not a supporter of Hogan, or FG

Surely the legalities are being set by S.I.9. It's a change in "law". Dramatically-increased costs are inevitable. The person certifying must cover their (massively-increased!) insurance!!!!

Chisler2

jiminho wrote: »

From RTE website, re: Min. Hogan interview:

Members of the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland have called for the deferral of new building regulations due to come into force tomorrow.

The regulations will increase the levels of accountability on professionals signing off on new buildings.

Councillors in rural areas have called on Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan to amend the regulations to facilitate rural self-builders who want to build on their own land.

The Department of the Environment said the new regulations are needed to ensure properties are safe and compliant with the regulations.

Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Mr Hogan said there is nothing new in the regulations that prevent direct labour.

"The people who engage in direct labour or self-build will be able to continue to do so because there is no change in the act; in the statutory obligations under the Building Control Act 1990," he said.

The minister added that he is "expecting a professional to sign off on the work that it is actually done in accordance with the papers that are lodged and that it is up to a high standard ... that will cost somewhere between one and two thousand euro".

He said it is "a small cost to pay to make sure that things are done right for a home that might cost €100,000 or €150,000".

Mr Hogan said the new regulations were being brought in because of all the poor building standards that have been signed off by professionals, which resulted in places such as Priory Hall, unfinished estates and pyritic material in buildings.

The minister said he could not understand what he described as the "wild exaggeration" in relation to self-builds.

He said there is no change in the technical performance standards in respect of newly-finished homes.

I know there's been a lot of he said, she said, regs say yada-yada but it is bizarre that Hogan is so adamant in his reasoning. He has said time and time again that people who want to take the direct build route can still do so. I mean it's one thing to fudge the truth, it's another to flat out lie. I guess time will tell. Nothing's set in stone quite yet and who's to say there will be an amendment shortly after regardless of what comes to fruition tomorrow. Ahh to be Irish!!!

What the Minister said would be more persuasive had he quoted instances of "one-off" builds with the dangers and problems of the contract-build he cited.

Regarding his publicly-stated position, the saying "the devil is in the detail" comes to mind.

"Ahh to be Irish!!!" all right. My (American, and a Professor of Economics) husband's response last night at dinner when I was "going on" about S.I 9 and the worry it is creating for me (I am still awaiting planning!) asked with a sigh "Why do the Irish always take decisions against their own best interest?" A question we Gaels should ponder:o.

Hairy mellon

heres a tv clip from earlier with self-builder:


Self-Builder Amanda Gallagher on RTE One Morning Edition #BloodSweatandTears | BRegs Blog
http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/self-builder-amanda-gallagher-on-rte-one-morning-edition-bloodsweatandtears/

here's minister earlier

RTÉ.ie Radio 28th Feb. ’14: Morning Ireland: Storm in a tea-cup? BC(A)R SI.9 | BRegs Blog
http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/rte-ie-radio-28th-feb-14-morning-ireland-storm-in-a-tea-cup-bcar-si-9/

4Sticks

Kudos to you Mandy Gall you presented well there.

martinn123

Chisler2 wrote: »

Surely the legalities are being set by S.I.9. It's a change in "law". Dramatically-increased costs are inevitable. The person certifying must cover their (massively-increased!) insurance!!!!

Perhaps you could post details of your massively increased insurance quotation, when your policy renews.

mandy gall

4Sticks wrote: »

Kudos to you Mandy Gall you presented well there.

Thanks a mill. Just trying to protect my familys future. I hope we have the one we planned.

Chisler2

martinn123 wrote: »

Perhaps you could post details of your massively increased insurance quotation, when your policy renews.

There seems to be a misunderstanding, so apologies for my post's lack of clarity. I referred to the insurance cover any individual who takes the role of certifyer/Project Manager to a one-off build will have to take out after tomorrow.

My post refers to the feasibility of day-to-day operation of the S.I.9........the "who-does-what-where-and-how" of real life!

I am not entertaining any plans to be a "self-builder"!!!!

Chisler2

mandy gall wrote: »

Thanks a mill. Just trying to protect my familys future. I hope we have the one we planned.

Well done Mandy - you made perfect sense; he came across as weak and reading from a script. Good stuff.

mandy gall

Chisler2 wrote: »

Well done Mandy - you made perfect sense; he came across as weak and reading from a script. Good stuff.

Sure hes as weak as a kitten
him and the big bad wolf phil trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Does he see STUPID written on my head??

jiminho

mandy gall wrote: »

Sure hes as weak as a kitten
him and the big bad wolf phil trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Does he see STUPID written on my head??

It's the Irish Government. Condescension is their middle name!!!

martinn123

Chisler2 wrote: »

There seems to be a misunderstanding, so apologies for my post's lack of clarity. I referred to the insurance cover any individual who takes the role of certifyer/Project Manager to a one-off build will have to take out after tomorrow.

My post refers to the feasibility of day-to-day operation of the S.I.9........the "who-does-what-where-and-how" of real life!

I am not entertaining any plans to be a "self-builder"!!!!

There are many posters on this thread, who do not actually have a dog in this fight, it's beginning to collapse in on itself, as 4sticks said elsewhere,

+1 on the TV appearance by Mandy, well done.

scwazrh

Am I right in understanding that a simple explanation of the new regs is -

1) If under 40 sqm extension or renovation , nothing changes.
2) anything over 40 sqm extension or a new build needs to be certified by either an architect or engineer.

4Sticks

Essentially yes. All works must comply with building regulations so even renovation works and or extension works of less than 40m2 should be certified as before.

scwazrh

So is it right to say that the only people these changes will affect are the people who wanted to build without engaging a professional to oversee the work?

jiminho

scwazrh wrote: »

So is it right to say that the only people these changes will affect are the people who wanted to build without engaging a professional to oversee the work?

Not really. There will be an increased cost for every method of build due to the increased professional costs. So it effects everyone.

DOCARCH

Goodbye old....

DOCARCH

....hello (brave) new world (of building control)!

4Sticks

scwazrh wrote: »

So is it right to say that the only people these changes will affect are the people who wanted to build without engaging a professional to oversee the work?

That is way too simple. Many are affected and in different ways which you will see if you read back through the thread.

Chisler2

martinn123 wrote: »

There are many posters on this thread, who do not actually have a dog in this fight, it's beginning to collapse in on itself, as 4sticks said elsewhere,


Explain! My post "collapses" nothing. Following the suggestion of a veteran contributor that the thread mutate to addressing consequences of the Statute post-1st March, I posted on a possible unintended consequence of S.I 9 building control regulations (Amendment), which is the subject of this thread.

On what do you base your assumption that I am not affected by an issue which I spend time educating myself about and contributing on, on an online forum - in your words, "have a dog in this fight"?

4Sticks

The West is Awake !

Happyman42

ON this auspicious day I would like to remind everbody:

A self builder built The Ark,
and professionals built The Titanic.

That is all.