Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

Open A

Its true, there has been some media coverage.. but Minister Hogan intends to push ahead with these Regs regardless: http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/property-homes/home-truths-29792949.html

We need more people to wake up to the reality of what the regs do.. and don't do.. and make some noise! Ultimately the strongest argument is that the regs do not protect the consumer. Judging by the title of the Independent article, people won't come aware the regs inadequacies until it is too late

martinn123

Well in fairness to the participants on this Forum, it's been discussed here since
8/4/13

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84045431&postcount=1

Not sure if anyone, canvassed the Dept,

Open A

I know it has been discussed here. Its being discussed in a lot of places, but it seems like we are all being ignored...

I thought these articles are particularly pertinent:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/highly-unlikely-priory-hall-would-happen-in-britain-171533.html
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/6feb1716-575e-11e3-b615-00144feabdc0.html

Meanwhile, Phil Hogan continues with the argument that Building Control has nothing to do with the Government and is for the industry to sort out..

kkelliher

Open A wrote: »

Its being discussed in a lot of places, but it seems like we are all being ignored...

Is that not what vested interests generally do?:D

Open A

I'm on the BRegs Forum online team. Trying our best to reach out to as many people and organisations as possible. People are starting to listen, but very slowly. Also, we've reached out to Phil Hogan directly. Might as well...

W123-80's

I understand somewhat the theory behind these new reg.
It just seems over the top to completely stop self builders from doing just that.

In any other walk of life I can pretty much do/make for myself what I want once it's legal and I operate to whatever standards are required.

Why am I not allowed to build a house for myself?

If I meet all regulations, have an engineer sign off that all requirements are met, why do I HAVE to employ a third party/middle man do do these checks for me.

At the end of the day most contractors will sub contract. Why can I not cut the contractor/middle man out, meet all regulations and build my own house.

It seems very unfair to me.

sydthebeat

Open A wrote: »

I'm on the BRegs Forum online team. Trying our best to reach out to as many people and organisations as possible. People are starting to listen, but very slowly. Also, we've reached out to Phil Hogan directly. Might as well...

the professionals know quite well whats happening... and as far as i can see it most are rebelling against it.

however Big Phil sees this as his "smoking ban" moment and is not going to stray from his path, he is possibly the most stubborn of all ministers, judging by his track record.

The only way this will hit national headlines and into the publics mind is issues such as this .... and also it needs a full boycott from professionals against this SI so that all public jobs stop until the issues are resolved.

Imagine a scenario where public funding is appropriated, planning in place, tenders sent out for professional services but no tenders are received??
The public would go mad, and thats exactly what is needed. That would focus their minds to think about their possible build in the future, or their children, and how this SI would affect them. No direct labour, increased inspection costs, increased design costs.... and for what??? absolutely no further protection against non compliance as currently exists and with the only recourse of action through the courts and possibly against a dissolved company.....

sydthebeat

W123-80's wrote: »

I understand somewhat the theory behind these new reg.
It just seems over the top to completely stop self builders from doing just that.

In any other walk of life I can pretty much do/make for myself what I want once it's legal and I operate to whatever standards are required.

Why am I not allowed to build a house for myself?

If I meet all regulations, have an engineer sign off that all requirements are met, why do I HAVE to employ a third party/middle man do do these checks for me.

At the end of the day most contractors will sub contract. Why can I not cut the contractor/middle man out, meet all regulations and build my own house.

It seems very unfair to me.

hypothetically, how can show your competence for compliance of the regulations?

this isnt a challenge, its actually what all prospective self builders would have to do.

BryanF

this all great but.. the disgust people here have towards this new legislation is pointless. how about every time someone posts about it here, they also send a mail to minster hogan copying their local TDs and council representatives!
Website: www.philhogan.ie Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/PhilHoganTD
Email: philip.hogan@oireachtas.ie

BryanF

sydthebeat wrote: »

the professionals know quite well whats happening... and as far as i can see it most are rebelling against it.

however Big Phil sees this as his "smoking ban" moment and is not going to stray from his path, he is possibly the most stubborn of all ministers, judging by his track record.

+1
i wish he had off picked a better smoking ban/flagship legislation

W123-80's

sydthebeat wrote: »

hypothetically, how can show your competence for compliance of the regulations?

this isnt a challenge, its actually what all prospective self builders would have to do.

My first response to your initial question would be how can a builder show competence?

But that is irrelevant, surely an engineer worth his salt will sign off at each stage to say the building has been built correctly and to the standards.

If the drawings are correct, if the blocklayer, electrician, plumbers etc are all qualified and have relevant papers to carry out their trades/jobs, why do I need a contractor to comply with the regs?
Can I not just have an engineer who will say all is in order according to the regs. Obviously if all is not in order then the engineer will not sign off and I am in bother. But if that is a risk I am willing to take why stop me?

Hypothetically speaking of course.!

Open A

BryanF wrote: »

this all great but.. the disgust people here have towards this new legislation is pointless. how about every time someone posts about it here, they also send a mail to minster hogan copying their local TDs and council representatives!
Website: www.philhogan.ie Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/PhilHoganTD
Email: philip.hogan@oireachtas.ie

Couldn't agree more! I think I emailed 20 TDs yesterday..

4Sticks

W123-80's wrote: »

Obviously if all is not in order then the engineer will not sign off and I am in bother. But if that is a risk I am willing to take why stop me?

Imagine this. You build out well as you wish to above here. You appoint yourself as builder and the nice engineer signs off. And then emigrates. Five years pass and then you want to sell up and you do. One year later and the new owner suffers defects. Paper work is examined. Now who was the builder again ....in the onerous context of these new regulations ....?

Broaden this out and away from the self builder / own house situation. Suppose you are a wealthy developer. You will build what you wish to build and the engineer that you are paying a handsome sum ( in your mind) to in fees will kindly sign it off . Or you will find another one who will. More Priory Halls - guaranteed.

For the consumer i.e. most of not lucky enough to build our own - this existing scenario will not change.

martinn123

4sticks wrote:

build what you wish to build and the engineer that you are paying a handsome sum ( in your mind) to in fees will kindly sign it off . Or you will find another one who will. More Priory Halls - guaranteed.

Is that not what these Reg's are trying to outlaw.
The Certifyer, who signed anything for a Fee

Now if you are unhappy with the quality, don't sign, until rectified.
It's called standing over your Certification.

BryanF

martinn123 wrote: »

Is that not what these Reg's are trying to outlaw.
The Certifyer, who signed anything for a Fee

Now if you are unhappy with the quality, don't sign, until rectified.
It's called standing over your Certification.

in order to do so, the certifer is on site every day, a 'clerk of works' if you like. will the self builder pay for this?

or the opposite happens, the certifer isnt paid to visit more than once a week. will you stop work after fixing the grounds for the suspended ceiling until its inspected by the certifer? perhaps doubling the visits you have to a site and delays the clients schedule.

is the industry ready to provide every scrap of evidence from every item installed and certificates of conformance for same?

DOCARCH

martinn123 wrote: »

Is that not what these Reg's are trying to outlaw.
The Certifyer, who signed anything for a Fee

Nothing in the new regs stopping the developer appointing his own 'friendly' or 'understanding' assigned certifier.

So...pretty much as you were...

....but this time it has absolutely nothing to do with local authority! Under new regs, you won't have the likes of Dublin City Council (or other local authorities) having to foot the bill for temporary accommodation when things go wrong!

cikearney

Can someone tell me if I break ground and start mid February, can I avoid having to appoint a "builder".

And yes I will be complying with all regs, insurance and health and safety

martinn123

@ BryanF I am not suggesting the difficulties you point out are not valid, they are.

Fees will have to reflect the input/time aspect,

I am however welcoming the attempt to weed out the previous prevelance of "Certs for Fees" irrespective of quality and lack of Inspection.

BryanF

DOCARCH wrote: »

Under new regs, you won't have the likes of Dublin City Council (or other local authorities) having to foot the bill for temporary accommodation when things go wrong!

hmm
were the councils stakeholders in the drafting of this bill ?

BryanF

cikearney wrote: »

Can someone tell me if I break ground and start mid February, can I avoid having to appoint a "builder".

And yes I will be complying with all regs, insurance and health and safety

yes

cikearney

BryanF wrote: »

yes

And what would the start consist of, once I break ground?

martinn123

DOCARCH wrote: »

Nothing in the new regs stopping the developer appointing his own 'friendly' or 'understanding' assigned certifier.

So...pretty much as you were...

What about the Professional Integrity of the Certifyer, or is that just a myth

DOCARCH

BryanF wrote: »

hmm
were the councils stakeholders in the drafting of this bill ?

Well...if you consider what government department councils come under/answer too...maybe?

DOCARCH

martinn123 wrote: »

What about the Professional Integrity of the Certifyer, or is that just a myth

People are people!

There are good and bad in all walks of life and if the fee is high enough and the paper trail long enough, you will always get people happy to turn a blind eye and/or carry out inspections at the 'right' time, especially in larger housing and apartment developments.

This face that the Minister is putting on these new regs is that they are interest of consumer protection...this is complete tripe!

The only recourse anybody will have, if things, go wrong, is engage a raft of legal professionals and go through a lengthy and costly court process to get any redress.

Fine if you are a commercial entity...but if you are an individual house or apartment owner, it will be harder than ever to get any form redress.

martinn123

DOCARCH wrote: »

People are people!

There are good and bad in all walks of life and if the fee is high enough and the paper trail long enough, you will always get people happy to turn a blind eye and/or carry out inspections at the 'right' time, especially in larger housing and apartment developments.


The only recourse anybody will have, if things, go wrong, is engage a raft of legal professionals and go through a lengthy and costly court process to get any redress.

Fine if you are a commercial entity...but if you are an individual house or apartment owner, it will be harder than ever to get any form redress.

So absolutely no change from the current position,

Why all the fuss??

Oh and the Developers can now go Bankrupt in Ireland.

DOCARCH

martinn123 wrote: »

Why all the fuss??

See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056921361

Basically, the regs are flawed...and...offer the consumer essentially less protection than ever (at extra cost).

If the new regs are significantly re-worked, with everybody taking their fair share of responsibility, with statutory registration of builders (to put them on a professional footing), with latent defects insurance and with some oversight by the local authority (or other independent body)...then maybe...

W123-80's

4Sticks wrote: »

Imagine this. You build out well as you wish to above here. You appoint yourself as builder and the nice engineer signs off. And then emigrates. Five years pass and then you want to sell up and you do. One year later and the new owner suffers defects. Paper work is examined. Now who was the builder again ....in the onerous context of these new regulations ....?

Broaden this out and away from the self builder / own house situation. Suppose you are a wealthy developer. You will build what you wish to build and the engineer that you are paying a handsome sum ( in your mind) to in fees will kindly sign it off . Or you will find another one who will. More Priory Halls - guaranteed.

For the consumer i.e. most of not lucky enough to build our own - this existing scenario will not change.

I understand the point in relation to wealthy builders and dodgy engineers having the freedom to sign off on any old rubbish.

But I am a self builder so I am not concerned with this scenario yet I am being effected by it.
As I mentioned previously why am I not allowed to build my own house within the regs with an engineer signing off that all is above board?
I'm not specifically asking you of course, more posing the question.

I've been thinking about it all evening and the more time I give it the dafter it seems.
Picture the following hypothetical scenario;
I own the land, I have plenty the cash to build (say €200k)
The cash has been earned legitimately.

Now why can't I hire in skilled labour to build my own house, on my own land, with my own money, to the required regulations, for me and my wife.

I can't for the life of me see any reason why I should have to hire the services of a middle man/third party/contractor to build my house if I don't want to.

There is something about that scenario that doesn't sit right with me at a very fundamental level.

martinn123

DOCARCH wrote: »

See here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056921361

Basically, the regs are flawed...and...offer the consumer essentially less protection than ever (at extra cost).

If the new regs are significantly re-worked, with everybody taking their fair share of responsibility, with statutory registration of builders (to put them on a professional footing), with latent defects insurance and with some oversight by the local authority (or other independent body)...then maybe...

..... We will revert to form and just.....

DOCARCH wrote:

...if the fee is high enough and the paper trail long enough, you will always get people happy to turn a blind eye and/or carry out inspections at the 'right' time, especially in larger housing and apartment developments.

newbie2013

LMBO Only in ireland do the biggest bunch of arseholes you could find, get into office and come up with the biggest fcuked up regs anyone can even think off. Imagine killing the one thing that was great about this country, a man being able to build his own home with his own hands if capable. Its just laughable that it cant be done now. I hope someone challanges this on a human rights level because IMO, thats what it is.



Just curious , will this make rural house prices rise now that this is the case. I own my own house, (own it outright, built in the boom years) and was planning on down sizing and building a new home with the new regs. Now it looks like ill have to take my home off the market and sit on it for a few years to see how the market settles now because with these changes, ill need another x-amount of thousands to complete, something i would have been able to do if these new regs didnt come in

Common sense rules of etiquette and good manners are to be respected at all times. You are expected refrain from posting personal abuse, bad language, advertising, spam and failure to observe this may warrant a ban.

newbie2013

Without a second thought. Selling up and getting as far away from this country as possible. I thought it was already bad but this is terrible news. Fcuk knows what the country will be like in 10 years time with these **** in power!!!.







Mods, sorry for the rant but i think its justified

DOCARCH

newbie2013 wrote: »

Mods, sorry for the rant but i think its justified

Me too!

There has been some little snippets in the papers and on the radio over the past few weeks about these new regulations...the problem is that it has been sort of high level/techncial stuff...and, unfortunately, in my opinion, it has come across as architects just whinging!!!

But when the reality of these regs come into effect, with Joe Public, expect to hear a lot more about it.

As I have mentioned, the reality is lots more paperwork, red tape, cost, etc., etc., for the consumer/the man on the street who wants to building their own house....but no added protection for the consumer at the end of it all.

This is very poor (knee jerk) legislation which has not been properly thought out.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

..... We will revert to form and just.....

But the major Difference is that the end consumer would simply have to enact an insurance claim of and when the issue arises without having to prove fault to anyone.

The new regs just mean that Convoluted lengthy costly court actions against a possibly dissolved company must be taken by the same end consumer in the hope of some redress.

Which sounds like a better protection to the Consumer?

newbie2013

Can these regs be changed with a government change ? I think big gerry A from west belfast wouldnt be to happy about these, maybe this would be another way to get votes or is it just budgets they can change. As you can see, i know nothing about politics lol

martinn123

Guys I think you are overreacting in relation to self builds

Self-builders will be required under S.I.80, as clients, to employ a design certifier and assigned certifier (engineer/ architect/ building surveyor)- this is positive as it is unwise for a technically non-experienced person to undertake self-building without professional input. This should be welcomed as a positive development.

If a client is going to be the builder, currently that’s fine- self-builders can nominate themselves (as long as they consider themselves to be ‘competent’ and as builders are currently unregistered this seems to work well for self-builders. The only persons precluded from operating as contractors are Architects.

So, S.I.80 at the moment can only improve the quality of self-builds.

However when a formal register of builders is introduced in 2015 self-builders will need to meet the criteria to become registered, or will be precluded from this role. The criteria more than likely is a minimum of 3 years relevant building experience, tax affairs in order, relevant insurances in place etc.

So, in 12 months self-building will no longer be possible unless the self-builder is already an established experienced contractor, with their own insurances and tax-clearance documents etc. People who want to undertake works themselves are no longer able to do so. One unintended consequence of this is that rural landowners with some building experience who are capable of managing sub-contractors will no longer be able to inhabit this role- they will be forced down the more expensive route of appointing a main contractor to domestic or other projects that require planning permission (farm buildings, outhouses etc.)

You have till Mar 2015 at least, thereafter it assumes the formal register of Builders is in place, which has not been agreed with Tom Parlons lot, yet.

In addition, the LA's do not have the systems in place for this to come into effect from March, so my guess is it will be delayed.

sydthebeat

The registry is voluntary next year, well as is proposed. Also, the registry number must be provided before commencement.

So i suppose if a self builder is able to just "volunteer" themselves as a Contractor next year perhaps that might be acceptable, god oonly knows who's call that is.

Also, on the scheme not being up and running, they are referring to a online digital submission scheme. You can be sure they will still insist on a good old paper Submission come next March.

newbie2013

martinn123 wrote: »

Guys I think you are overreacting in relation to self builds


You have till Mar 2015 at least, .

Thats all wel and good but what about my 19yr old whos always dreamnt about building his home when he returns to settle in ireland in a decade. Itll be to late for him and others. Yes i understand that he still can but this will come at a high price for little extra cover.

newbie2013

sydthebeat wrote: »

The registry is voluntary next year, well as is proposed. Also, the registry number must be provided before commencement.

So i suppose if a self builder is able to just "volunteer" themselves as a Contractor next year perhaps that might be acceptable, god oonly knows who's call that is.

Also, on the scheme not being up and running, they are referring to a online digital submission scheme. You can be sure they will still insist on a good old paper Submission come next March.

What does one need to register ?

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

The registry is voluntary next year, well as is proposed. Also, the registry number must be provided before commencement.

So i suppose if a self builder is able to just "volunteer" themselves as a Contractor next year perhaps that might be acceptable, god oonly knows who's call that is.

.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not post a copy of a Document, which stated " supply registered number" If APPLICABLE

I'm on I Pad and can't find it.

sydthebeat

newbie2013 wrote: »

What does one need to register ?

The cif are compiling a registry of building contractors. Each contractor is given a reg number which must be submitted as part of the commencement documents.

W123-80's

martinn123 wrote: »

Guys I think you are overreacting in relation to self builds


You have till Mar 2015 at least, thereafter it assumes the formal register of Builders is in place, which has not been agreed with Tom Parlons lot, yet.

In addition, the LA's do not have the systems in place for this to come into effect from March, so my guess is it will be delayed.

The point still stands.
In March 2015 anyone wanting to self build will be FORCED down the more expensive route of appointing a main contractor.

The forced bit is the part I have a huge issue with. I think it is completely unfair.
If a person is willing to build their own house by hiring competent and certified tradesmen, paying VAT on all jobs along the way, getting an engineer to sign off according to the regs, they should be entitled to do so.

These regs are interfering with the free market in that self builders will be forced to hire a contractor and tradesmen will be forced to work for contractors.

Thats just plain daft.
Self employed tradesmen are highly qualified people, why should I have to go through a middle man to ensure they are doing their job correct?
A good engineer can do these checks.

Regardless of when the regs come into effect I think they are flawed and unfair on a lot of individuals.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not post a copy of a Document, which stated " supply registered number" If APPLICABLE

I'm on I Pad and can't find it.

There is amendments proposed to those documents. So currently this number is proposed.

sheff the ref

Great post. You also have to factor in that there is very little precision technology involved with building a house. Nothing has to be within 0.001 of a mm. You could build more precise things without half the red tape

W123-80's wrote: »

I understand somewhat the theory behind these new reg.
It just seems over the top to completely stop self builders from doing just that.

In any other walk of life I can pretty much do/make for myself what I want once it's legal and I operate to whatever standards are required.

Why am I not allowed to build a house for myself?

If I meet all regulations, have an engineer sign off that all requirements are met, why do I HAVE to employ a third party/middle man do do these checks for me.

At the end of the day most contractors will sub contract. Why can I not cut the contractor/middle man out, meet all regulations and build my own house.

It seems very unfair to me.

newbie2013

sydthebeat wrote: »

The cif are compiling a registry of building contractors. Each contractor is given a reg number which must be submitted as part of the commencement documents.

Can anyone just register, one with some building experience. I work in construction, havent any papers but im very good at what i do. Is it possible i register as one

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

There is amendments proposed to those documents. So currently this number is proposed.

No I found it

NOTICE OF ASSIGNMENT OF BUILDER Building Control Authority
1. This notice of assignment relates to the following building or works: ............................................................................................................................................. .............................................................................................................................................
2. As the building owner, I have assigned the following person as Builder of the building or works and I am satisfied that they are competent to undertake the works so assigned on my behalf.
Builder’s Name: ................................................................................................................
Address: .............................................................................................................................
.............................................................................................................................................
Tel.: ................................ Fax: ........................... Email: .................................................
Construction Industry Register Ireland Registration No (where applicable).: ..........
3. I undertake to notify the Building Control Authority in writing of any change in the person assigned as builder of the b u i l d i n g o r works as notified herein.
Building Owner’s Signature: ................................... Date: ..........................................

I take the words "where Applicable " literally, you may be registered , or not..

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

No I found it


I take the words "where Applicable " literally, you may be registered , or not..

As I've said above, there are changes proposed to that

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

As I've said above, there are changes proposed to that

Yes there are changes proposed to that Document

From your post #194, you posted a link to these proposed changes.

It is proposed to ADD the Words
" Registration Number...if Applicable " to the Document.

sydthebeat

W123-80's wrote: »

If a person is willing to build their own house by hiring competent and certified tradesmen, paying VAT on all jobs along the way, getting an engineer to sign off according to the regs, they should be entitled to do so.
.

the problem with this approach is that

1. all the subcontractors

competent and certified tradesmen

are NOT required to provide certification for the work they do.

2. The engineer / architect / surveyor is being FORCED to provide unadulterated certification for the work ALL persons carry out on site.

Therefore unless the engineer is employed to be on site pretty much all of the time to oversee all the subbies (ie what a contractor does) then it is seriously madness to expect any professional to certify work carried out by others on a day to day basis.
Regulations have become so specific that now; every process and piece of material used in a house build has to comply with some regulation and standard, therefore every process and material needs to be inspected to check its certification and installation.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

Yes there are changes proposed to that Document

From your post #194, you posted a link to these proposed changes.

It is proposed to ADD the Words
" Registration Number...if Applicable " to the Document.

Yes thats it.

Again, we are talking about something proposed so nothing is set in stone yet... but id argue against your reading of

I take the words "where Applicable " literally, you may be registered , or not..

"where applicable" means you may not be registered in (as of yet) undisclosed situations.

who knows what those situations are.


Interestingly ive just had a look at the draft code of practise and by my reading of it even if a self builder names themselves as the "builder" they still must engage a "competent person" to oversee the work.

3.3 Builder’s Role
The Builder shall carry out the works in accordance with the plans and specifications of the professional design team, their specialists and sub-consultants as necessary and have regard to these in accordance with the requirements of the Building Regulations.
The Builder (company or sole trader) should -
(a) accept from the Building Owner the assignment to build and supervise the project building or works outlined in the Commencement Notice;
(b) familiarise themselves with the drawings, specifications and documents lodged with the Commencement Notice;
(c) ensure a Competent Person is assigned to oversee the Construction works;
(d) co-operate with the design team, the Assigned Certifier and other certifiers;
(e) ensure that the workmanship complies with the requirements of the Building Regulations;
(f) ensure that materials which they select and for which they are responsible comply with the requirements of the Building Regulations;
(g) sign the Certificate of Compliance (completion);
(h) provide to the Assigned Certifier, such documents for which they are responsible, as may assist the Assigned Certifier to collate particulars for the purposes of handover and certification, and/or for further submissions to the Building Control Authority;
(i) ensure the coordination and provision of all test certificates and confirmations to the satisfaction of the Assigned Certifier or other designated inspectors or certifiers providing Ancillary Certificates; and
(i)(j) Maintain records.

“Competent Person”: a person is deemed to be a competent person where, having regard to the task he or she is required to perform and taking account of the size and/or complexity of the building or works, the person possesses sufficient training, experience and knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work to be undertaken;

note that this person appears to be separate and distinct from the "assigned certifier"


so by my reading a self builder still must engage a "competent person" to oversee work, separate from an architect / engineer / surveyor

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yes thats it.

Again, we are talking about something proposed so nothing is set in stone yet... but id argue against your reading of


"where applicable" means you may not be registered in (as of yet) undisclosed situations.

who knows what those situations are.

All agreed, and as its not set in stone, can we stop assuming all sorts of obstructions to the self-builder, until the stone is set

sydthebeat wrote:

Interestingly ive just had a look at the draft code of practise and by my reading of it even if a self builder names themselves as the "builder" they still must engage a "competent person" to oversee the work.





note that this person appears to be separate and distinct from the "assigned certifier"


so by my reading a self builder still must engage a "competent person" to oversee work, separate from an architect / engineer / surveyor

It does not use the work " engage",
so again I thing you are jumping to conclusions, on words, open to various interpretation.

having ''Appointed'' himself ''Builder'' whats to prevent him, ''Appointing'' himself as ''Competent Person''

I agree the Certifyer is an additional and separate person.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

It does not use the work " engage",
so again I thing you are jumping to conclusions, on words, open to various interpretation.
.

it says 'ensure'... if someone wants to take on this role for nothing... so be it.

martinn123 wrote: »

having ''Appointed'' himself ''Builder'' whats to prevent him, ''Appointing'' himself as ''Competent Person''

nothing, once they comply with the definition of 'competent person' which i included above for that exact purpose. If self builders have the required 'training, experience and knowledge' then there's nothing stopping them as far as i can see.

From the 'assigned certifiers' point of view;
can the building owner, builder and competent person be one and the same?? i think that needs clarification.